cosplay does NOT equal Consent

[figmentPez]

i agree that white male privilege is an illness that must be cured, but i don't think i follow your thread

Apparently you're not aware that I spent more than a dozen years in constant pain due to an undiagnosed medical condition, and I still have to put up with severe amounts of pain as well as periodic bouts of paralysis, among other serious health problems. Despite that I look reasonably healthy, and I have been treated like shit by people who think that someone has to look ill in order to be ill. So I've been through a lot more fucking problems than you have ever dreamed of.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Apparently you're not aware that I spent more than a dozen years in constant pain due to an undiagnosed medical condition, and I still have to put up with severe amounts of pain as well as periodic bouts of paralysis, among other serious health problems. Despite that I look reasonably healthy, and I have been treated like shit by people who think that someone has to look ill in order to be ill. So I've been through a lot more fucking problems than you have ever dreamed of.

i'm really sorry to hear that, but i dunno what it has to do with being a white guy and which clothes you wear. lots of people suffer the same stuff due to mental disorders too.

 

[Terrik]

I'm sorry that I don't take the minor inconveniences of white males seriously.

Im curious, Charlie, how far does this particular idea go? If a white male was treated unfairly in say, Japan for being a foreigner or non-Japanese. would it instill the same sense of injustice as a Japanese person being mistreated for being non-white would? What about a Chinese peron in Japan or vise versa?

 

[Gilgamesh]

Apparently you're not aware that I spent more than a dozen years in constant pain due to an undiagnosed medical condition, and I still have to put up with severe amounts of pain as well as periodic bouts of paralysis, among other serious health problems. Despite that I look reasonably healthy, and I have been treated like shit by people who think that someone has to look ill in order to be ill. So I've been through a lot more fucking problems than you have ever dreamed of.

He won't get it.

i'm really sorry to hear that, but i dunno what it has to do with being a white guy and which clothes you wear. lots of people suffer the same stuff due to mental disorders too.

And there it is.

 

[figmentPez]

i'm really sorry to hear that, but i dunno what it has to do with being a white guy and which clothes you wear. lots of people suffer the same stuff due to mental disorders too.

Let me connect the dots for you. I am a white male, a group the least likely to be judged by appearances. Despite that I have still received poor treatment because I look healthy and people therefore expect me to be healthy. When I don't do what they expect a healthy person to do, they assumed I was lazy, lying, etc. If even I have been judged based on appearances then it should be pretty fucking obvious why it's important what other people think.

Fedoras and cargo shorts are a minor issue. Not many people are even affected by it. However, it's the hypocrisy of the issue that bothers me, and the fact that people don't even see it. Just because it is a minor issue does not mean it isn't still wrong. Stealing some waiter's $1 tip off of the table may be tiny compared to stealing someone's wallet, or emptying out their entire home, but it's still wrong. If people can't see why stealing a dollar is wrong, then they don't really understand why stealing is wrong at all. That's the understanding I'm trying to get across here. Prejudice isn't wrong only when it reaches a certain threshold, it is wrong, period. If you don't understand why that is, then you don't really understand why any prejudice is wrong.

 

[Ravenpoe]

And there it is.

I'm not sure where the zinger is? I think Charlie was asking an honest question, one that came across my mind was well. I'm not sure where the discussion changed from judging people based on what they wear, and judging people for not looking sick.[DOUBLEPOST=1382156802,1382156622][/DOUBLEPOST]

Let me connect the dots for you. I am a white male, a group the least likely to be judged by appearances. Despite that I have still received poor treatment because I look healthy and people therefore expect me to be healthy. When I don't do what they expect a healthy person to do, they assumed I was lazy, lying, etc. If even I have been judged based on appearances then it should be pretty fucking obvious why it's important what other people think.

Fedoras and cargo shorts are a minor issue. Not many people are even affected by it. However, it's the hypocrisy of the issue that bothers me, and the fact that people don't even see it. Just because it is a minor issue does not mean it isn't still wrong. Stealing some waiter's $1 tip off of the table may be tiny compared to stealing someone's wallet, or emptying out their entire home, but it's still wrong. If people can't see why stealing a dollar is wrong, then they don't really understand why stealing is wrong at all. That's the understanding I'm trying to get across here. Prejudice isn't wrong only when it reaches a certain threshold, it is wrong, period. If you don't understand why that is, then you don't really understand why any prejudice is wrong.

I think it's the zealousness of which you reacted to this thread that confuses most people. I really don't think anyone here honestly assumes that anyone that wears cargo shorts or fedoras is automatically a bad person. It's similar to pointing out popped collars (though socks and sandals immediately make you terrible.)

You're over reacting, and really need to calm down. Maybe don't click this thread for awhile.

 

[Krisken]

I think it's a question of 'what you see isn't always what you get'. Hell, we've been told since childhood not to 'judge a book by its cover'. This is just another reason why, since what you don't know about someone makes a big difference.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I will totally grant that it's really shitty that guys have basically no shot at getting custody in a divorce. I hope that's fixed in society and in the future, etc etc.

I got male discrimination for liking 'girly' shows. But I mean. There's a lot more female discrimination from the whole patriarchy thing than that.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Also, just to point out, judging people based on how they look or dress is not inherently wrong, period. Can it be? Yes, but it's an automatic function of our brain. If someone is dressed like a cop, and you assume they're a cop, is this inherently wrong? If someone is wearing a band t-shirt, is it inherently wrong to assume they like that band? If you're in an area with known gang activity, and a group of people wearing gang colors begin walking towards you, is it inherently wrong to be on guard?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

a group of people wearing gang colors begin walking towards you, is it inherently wrong to be on guard?

are they black






this is important

 

[Gilgamesh]

are they black






this is important

I think Charlie was asking an honest question, one that came across my mind was well.

Is that one a valid one too?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Is that one a valid one too?

fuck no, if you didn't know i was joking there, you need glasses

 

[Cajungal]

If someone is wearing a band t-shirt, is it inherently wrong to assume they like that band?

Depending on the rest of their looks, I might assume they were wearing it ironically.

 

[Gilgamesh]

fuck no, if you didn't know i was joking there, you need glasses

 

[Ravenpoe]

are they black






this is important

Of course they are.

Unless you're in westside Manhattan.

Rough neighborhood.

 

[PatrThom]

i agree that white male privilege is an illness that must be cured, but i don't think i follow your thread

"Privilege" (or at least the expectation of such) is an illness, regardless of skin color, religion, etc.

I think it's the zealousness of which [FigmentPez] reacted to this thread that confuses most people.

Exactly.

--Patrick

 

[figmentPez]

Also, just to point out, judging people based on how they look or dress is not inherently wrong, period. Can it be? Yes, but it's an automatic function of our brain. If someone is dressed like a cop, and you assume they're a cop, is this inherently wrong? If someone is wearing a band t-shirt, is it inherently wrong to assume they like that band? If you're in an area with known gang activity, and a group of people wearing gang colors begin walking towards you, is it inherently wrong to be on guard?

I think the difference with that is willingness to have that temporary assumption be challenged. Prejudice is holding that negative opinion in defiance of knowledge, thought or reason.

This is a security guard:

This is an airline pilot:

Here's a third image. Without clicking on the thumbnail, tell me if it's a security guard or an airline pilot:


Neither, it's a driver's uniform, and it's mannequin, not a person. Appearances are damn hard to judge by sometimes. Their uniforms are fairly similar in appearance. Mistaking one for the other is not an unreasonable occurrence. However, if someone insists that a security guard knows how to fly a plane just because they look like a pilot, then you've got a problem. If they try to make a security guard actually fly a plane, then you've potentially got a huge problem. Making assumptions is unavoidable, and most of the time helpful to function in life. The problem comes when we cling to our assumptions after they've been proven untrue or harmful. Building up unnecessary assumptions, especially those judging people's beliefs or character, is tremendously harmful to the individual building up those assumptions.

That's the difference between... I don't know what term to use, but let's say "generality" since it's late, and a prejudice. It's one thing to generalize that people wearing t-shirts care less about their appearance, and that those who tuck them in, defying fashion trends, care even less, but it's another level all together to start using such visual identification as social stigma, identifying all those who dress that way as misogynist assholes. It's the level of disconnect from reality, and the steps away from basic assumptions that bother me. I don't like to see such prejudice being perpetuated, because it's wrong. I really don't like to see people accepting of such prejudice, because it's revealing of a complete misunderstanding of why prejudice is such a problem.

 

[PatrThom]

I don't know what term to use, but let's say "generality" since it's late, and a prejudice.

"Template matching?"

--Patrick

 

[Necronic]

So in other words, fashion isn't subjective, whatever you say goes? I don't even wear/own a fedora and think your hated of them is extreme. It's not really insane for someone to like the look of something just because you don't. It's not something " everyone says is very unfashionable". For example, the main character on White Collar on USA, a smooth, stylish conman type, has a trademark fedora. And that's without referencing older, even bigger names that popularized them *cough*Indiana Jones*cough*..

When you turn into Indiana Jones or the guy from white collar or Johnny Depp you can wear Dick Trousers (those are trousers made of dicks) and they would look fashionable. Please re-watch the sexual harrasment tape, same principle applies. I'm not saying fashion is fair in the slightest. What I'm saying is that fashion is determined by other people. It is a matter of dressing some way to get people to make judgements on you. The ENTIRE POINT OF FASHION is for people to judge you without knowing you.

Which is why the whole idea of the fedora bothers me. Its not for comfort or function. Its purely form. So is it form for other people? Doubtful, seeing as there is such rampant mockery of it. Then the only purpose it has is to fulfill a delusional fantasy of form that the wearer has. Which is the entire point of Gas's video. The fedora infects you with a feeling of fashion in spite of reality. Same thing with the comb-over or the velour shirt. This is a disease. Social embarrassment is the cure.

(this is a philosophical argument of almost zero ramification beyond the restoring the ability of nearby fedora wearers to find comfort in a woman's arms, so take it for what its worth. Which is pretty much nothing.)

 

[Reverent-one]

When you turn into Indiana Jones or the guy from white collar or Johnny Depp you can wear Dick Trousers (those are trousers made of dicks) and they would look fashionable. Please re-watch the sexual harrasment tape, same principle applies. I'm not saying fashion is fair in the slightest. What I'm saying is that fashion is determined by other people. It is a matter of dressing some way to get people to make judgements on you. The ENTIRE POINT OF FASHION is for people to judge you without knowing you.

Which is why the whole idea of the fedora bothers me. Its not for comfort or function. Its purely form. So is it form for other people? Doubtful, seeing as there is such rampant mockery of it. Then the only purpose it has is to fulfill a delusional fantasy of form that the wearer has. Which is the entire point of Gas's video. The fedora infects you with a feeling of fashion in spite of reality. Same thing with the comb-over or the velour shirt. This is a disease. Social embarrassment is the cure.

Except that the "rampant mockery" you mention is merely a meme shared by some people on the internet. There's not nearly the universal hatred of them you suggest in the real world. So yes, a fedora is form for other people. Not for you, but you're right about one thing, fashion isn't fair. Something may be fashionable to others even if you don't like it, so you'll have to learn to deal with that.

 

[Necronic]

I'm totally cool with stuff being fashionable to others. That's the entire point of fashion, as I said. My point is that the fedora looks ridiculous to most "others" most of the time. It's this generations version of the trenchcoat. It's a pretty shameless affectation. Sure, if you wear it with a three piece suit it can be pretty fucking slick. I am not talking about this:

That looks pretty decent. (not entirely sure I like the tie clip but v0v.) Granted I think he would look much better without it, but it's a quirky accessory and its a reasonable choice.

Now, compare that to this:

Its simply wrong. Its an affectation of the first picture, without going through any of the additional effort needed above (like wearing a full suit). At best the fedora is a quirky accessory only to be worn alongside some pretty serious fashion (suit etc.) At worst its an attempt to bypass all that and "go beastmode" without putting an ounce of effort in.

Its a shameless affectation.

And fwiw, I will keep arguing this indefinitely.

 

[figmentPez]

That's not a fedora in the second pic, it's a trilby. In any case, it's a pretty ridiculous fashion choice, but it's still prejudiced to judge someones ethics or socio-political views by it. Considering it to be aesthetically displeasing is a very different proposition than considering it to be proof that someone is a morally bad person.

 

[GasBandit]

Just a point of contention - I don't think creepy is necessarily a label pertaining to morality - it's more about social acumen (or lack thereof). In the same vein as "awkward." Not a moral judgement, but a social one.

 

[Ravenpoe]

That's not a fedora in the second pic, it's a trilby. In any case, it's a pretty ridiculous fashion choice, but it's still prejudiced to judge someones ethics or socio-political views by it. Considering it to be aesthetically displeasing is a very different proposition than considering it to be proof that someone is a morally bad person.

I don't think most people look at someone that dresses like a tool and think they're a morally bad person. They just think they dress like a tool.

That said, wear whatever the fuck you want. Own it. Just don't fly off the handle about, because that looks much, much worse than a fedora.

 

[figmentPez]

That said, wear whatever the fuck you want. Own it. Just don't fly off the handle about, because that looks much, much worse than a fedora.

Sorry, I find outrage to be the correct response to prejudice. You want to tell me that I look unfashionable? Fine, I'll take any insult you want to throw at me about that. You want to start judging people's ethics and morality based on appearances? I'll call you out as a prejudiced asshole, and also point out any hypocrisy I can spot as well.

 

[Tress]

Oh for fuck's sake.

 

[Ravenpoe]

don't think most people [. . .] think they're a morally bad person.

You want to start judging people's ethics and morality based on appearances?

 

[Bowielee]

Sorry, Pez, I'm usually one to let you vent your frustrations and all, but you're way overreacting and reading into things that aren't there.

 

[PatrThom]

Sorry, Pez, [...] you're way overreacting and reading into things that aren't there.

...in this case.

I'm not saying he doesn't have something, I'm just saying that correlation does not equal causation. A person sees a pattern, and he is 100% seeing that pattern. The pattern is there, he perceives it and logs it. He is only failing by then trying to stretch "some" big enough to cover "all." At best, I would say that xxxxx "increases the likelihood that subject N is a member of group M" rather than saying that xxxxx "is a badge signifying that subject N must be a member of group M." I'm sure there are other signs.

To go all set theory (layman-style), both pilots and security guards belong to the sets "People who wear uniforms" and "People who wear hats" and "People who wear ties." The fallacy happens when you take these limited characteristics and then try to draw the conclusion that "People who wear uniforms and hats and ties must ALL be pilots." In a real disaster in mid-air, having a uniform and hat should not automatically grant you a shot at the pilot's chair, but it should at least prompt the question, "Excuse me, are you a pilot?"

--Patrick

 

[Ravenpoe]

...in this case.

I'm not saying he doesn't have something, I'm just saying that correlation does not equal causation. A person sees a pattern, and he is 100% seeing that pattern. The pattern is there, he perceives it and logs it. He is only failing by then trying to stretch "some" big enough to cover "all." At best, I would say that xxxxx "increases the likelihood that subject N is a member of group M" rather than saying that xxxxx "is a badge signifying that subject N must be a member of group M." I'm sure there are other signs.

To go all set theory (layman-style), both pilots and security guards belong to the sets "People who wear uniforms" and "People who wear hats" and "People who wear ties." The fallacy happens when you take these limited characteristics and then try to draw the conclusion that "People who wear uniforms and hats and ties must ALL be pilots." In a real disaster in mid-air, having a uniform and hat should not automatically grant you a shot at the pilot's chair, but it should at least prompt the question, "Excuse me, are you a pilot?"

--Patrick

So then, Pez's overreaction could be a result of his past experience in encountering people who judge morality based on fedoras. He's then irrationally applying that to all people who hold negative opinions on them. If you don't like fedoras, you must be the kind of person to make moral judgments based on them.

That's just prejudiced.

 

[Krisken]

Shit just got real.

 

[figmentPez]

If you assume I was talking about you doing that, then yes. I worded my argument poorly. If someone were to... etc. Then I would call them out.[DOUBLEPOST=1382236124,1382236089][/DOUBLEPOST]

So then, Pez's overreaction could be a result of his past experience in encountering people who judge morality based on fedoras. He's then irrationally applying that to all people who hold negative opinions on them. If you don't like fedoras, you must be the kind of person to make moral judgments based on them.

That's just prejudiced.

That would be prejudiced if it weren't a strawman representation of my position.

 

[AshburnerX]

This is why I wear newsboys. No one thinks I'm a douche bag... they just think I'm poor and Irish.

 

[Bowielee]

This is why I wear newsboys. No one thinks I'm a douche bag... they just think I'm poor and Irish.

I've noticed that this is the current go to hat for chubby guys. (I'm NOT calling Ashburner chubby, BTW)

 

[DarkAudit]

Flat cap/newsboy is my go to hat when I'm going sweatshirt and jeans.