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cosplay does NOT equal Consent

Apr 4, 2013#1

Bones

http://www.16bitsirens.com/consent/

basically women in cosplay getting treated like crap by others(mostly men). Why is this even a thing?yes I admit I do stare on occasion. I do apologize that beautiful women in almost nothing is hard to ignore. However I believe that goes with the territory to a certain extent, what doesn't is the inappropriate touching and words. Seriously, act like an adult with restraint!

I am not perfect as I said before, but I do try to act with some protocol and decorum around other people.

Apr 4, 2013#2

Tress

A large segment of the convention crowd is made up of socially-stunted geeks who don't understand how to treat women with respect. It speaks to a great problem with many geeks, in my opinion. There are some strong veins of misogyny running through the whole foundation of that culture. The rest of us need to make a more concerted effort to speak up and make it clear that they have to treat other people (like the cosplayers in the article) with respect.

Apr 4, 2013#3

Bones

I guess thats where my life and work experiences have shaped that way predominately women doing this sort of thing are treated. I do admit there was a time as a teenager when i would have been guilty. I think it helps that I have had the chance to talk to people like littlekagsin at length about her experiences. I would not any human being to feel objectified, it does happen, but this makes me sad. to be so deluded that you feel it is ok to say things you wouldn't say or do to someone on the street, less say them at all, has a chilling effect on how I look at you as a person.

Apr 4, 2013#4

Tress

This one is the most cringe-worthy. What idiot thinks this is a good thing to say?!

Apr 4, 2013#5

Charlie Don't Surf

Agreeing with most of the sentiments itt about nerd culture's misogyny and horrid treatment of women in costume or not at most conventions.

Apr 4, 2013#6

Chad Sexington

Tress said:
This one is the most cringe-worthy. What idiot thinks this is a good thing to say?!

I knew I've been doing something wrong. I was sure that line was going to work.

Apr 4, 2013#7

Bones

the thing is, technically it is a complement from the guy yelling it, just not to the lady receiving it. who is basically saying I don't date mouth breathing basement trolls like you.

Not defending him at all. just an interesting semantical argument.

Apr 4, 2013#8

strawman

This could be taken care of if the convention actively policed the floor, and summarily threw people out without refund for harassment. Eventually people would understand that it's not acceptable, and they stand to lose their $$$ ticket if they are caught.

But as it stands its implicitly accepted, and people have to report it, and more often than not punishment is a slap on the wrist.

Apr 4, 2013#9

drawn_inward

Tress said:
A large segment of the convention crowd is made up of socially-stunted geeks who don't understand how to treat women with respect.

I understand what you mean here, but I honestly think that this extends out to the entire male population. Do jock types not gawk and say disrespectful things to cheer/dance girls? Have you been to college? I'd say that the majority of dudes in college are like you describe. I've seen some ridiculous behavior at rock concerts, and have spent some concerts helping young ladies get out of ~~moshpits~~ grope-pits. I've since stopped trying to get close to the stage.

However, I also think the women should show some thought/discretion before choosing their outfits.

Apr 4, 2013#10

Dirona

drawn_inward said:
However, I also think the women should show some thought/discretion before choosing their outfits.

Nope! nope nope nope nope nope.

No one is "asking for it" based on their choice of attire.

Apr 4, 2013#11

LittleKagsin

drawn_inward said:
However, I also think the women should show some thought/discretion before choosing their outfits.

I just wanted to address this line specifically with my thoughts. (I generally hate sharing my opinion with lots of people - I prefer one on one conversation) Most of the time, cosplayers cosplay characters that they love and enjoy. I feel it's no fault of ours if they're drawn a specific way. I take offense with the general media of it all. Female characters are drawn a certain way because sex sells, so when a girl wants to cosplay that character, now what? Cosplay it accurately and be objectified or cosplay it inaccurately and ridiculed? It's a hard choice.

I know some girls may choose skimpier outfits, and that really is their choice. She may be insecure and think that being skimpy will get her attention (which it will), it's possibly quite a bit cheaper to cosplay skimpy characters - less fabric = less money. She may think it's the only way to cosplay. There are a myriad of reasons a girl cosplays a character. But the way a man reacts to a girl in an outfit is entirely on him. Despite what society may say, he CAN control what comes out of his mouth and he CAN control where his hands go.

I would also hope that girls would be okay standing up for themselves or saying no instead of teasing. I know a lot of the time, it's hard to stand up for yourself and is much easier to make teasing conversation when in reality you're uncomfortable. So, in some cases, I think guys aren't really sure if they're being offensive at a con because the girl won't come out and say it. Even if he gets all mad, I would rather stick up for myself and be called names than be taken advantage of in anyway.

I'm just disappointed that character options are often in the same vein; the less clothes the better.

I do agree though that this subject applies to more than just the convention scene. It should apply to everyone.

(I feel very lucky I've managed to steer clear of all this - I've never felt scared at a con and only uncomfortable once.)

Apr 4, 2013#12

drawn_inward

Dirona said:
Nope! nope nope nope nope nope.

No one is "asking for it" based on their choice of attire.

Was not implying that whatsoever. Chill! Chill. Chill. Chill. Chill.

I DO NOT believe that: Women aren't getting what they deserve.
I DO NOT believe that: Women dressing in skimpy outfits = prostitute.

LittleKagsin said:
I feel it's no fault of ours if they're drawn a specific way. I take offense with the general media of it all. Female characters are drawn a certain way because sex sells, so when a girl wants to cosplay that character, now what? Cosplay it accurately and be objectified or cosplay it inaccurately and ridiculed? It's a hard choice.

I agree with this to a point. I am truly not saying that women should be wearing burkas lest a man have impure thoughts. I TOTALLY (please read, sincerely) believe that men/whoever should be able to control their actions/words no matter the situation.

You are right comics draw women ridiculously. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem, IMO.

However, as you stated "Sex sells" and the truth of the matter is that no matter how strict the rules, guys are going to stare and gawk at certain outfits/costumes. A 2d drawing is a lot different than a living breathing person. Also context is everything. A lady in a swimsuit at the pool? Not really a big deal. A swimsuit at a mall? Different.
I feel that same way about a dude dressing up as Namor in a speedo.

I am amazed at some of the cosplay. There are some talented folks making those get ups.

Apr 4, 2013#13

figmentPez

drawn_inward said:
However, I also think the women should show some thought/discretion before choosing their outfits.

I'm kind of torn on this issue. On one hand I'm fairly conservative in some areas, and do want women to consider the message they intend to send with their clothing, but on the other hand I will say that covering that point during a discussion on harassment is not the right time. If we were discussing how to dress for a job interview and a work environment (apart from harassment), if we were talking about appropriate attire for church, a funeral or a wedding; heck, even if we were talking about what to wear to a convention in general, I'd be willing to talk about discretion in wardrobe. However, since we're talking about how men are treating women, and how to stop that, I think it's not the right time to address if certain costumes are appropriate or not. Because this type of harassment can happen no matter how much skin is shown, and no clothing is a form of consent*, it's not the right time to have a discussion on exposure levels.

* I want to elaborate on this point. Clothing sends a message. If you want to get hired for a job, don't show up in a ratty old t-shirt. Wearing nice clothes sends the message that you care about the job you're applying for. Any employer is well within their rights to judge your fitness for the job based on how you're dressed when you interview. They don't have to, but they can. Showing up in stained, smelly clothing is a big sign that says "don't hire me". However, at a convention, there is no such thing as clothing that says "touch me", "take upskirt photos of me" or otherwise "harass me". There's clothing that says "I'm willing to appear in public wearing a thong". There are outfits that say "I'm a fan of this character". But there are zero outfits that say "you can touch my ass without formal consent". Such outfits do not exist.

Apr 4, 2013#14

LittleKagsin

drawn_inward said:
You are right comics draw women ridiculously. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem, IMO.

AGREED!!

Also, just going to throw out that, it's not wrong to notice someone in an outfit. What's wrong is how they're treated. If that makes sense.

I have no problem with someone coming up to me and saying something like 'Wow, you look great in your costume." 'That costume suits you really well, you pull it off.' 'How long did it take you to make that? It looks great!'

I don't want guys or anyone to be afraid to approach me. I mean, when I'm cosplaying, I'm basically saying 'I love this character so much I've spent way more money and time on it than I probably should have, come talk to me about it!!!'

Anyway...I feel distracted and probably can't make understandable conversation anymore.

I like reading everyone's thoughts about this subject though.

Apr 4, 2013#15

drawn_inward

figmentPez said:
I'm kind of torn on this issue. On one hand I'm fairly conservative in some areas, and do want women to consider the message they intend to send with their clothing, but on the other hand I will say that covering that point during a discussion on harassment is not the right time. If we were discussing how to dress for a job interview and a work environment (apart from harassment), if we were talking about appropriate attire for church, a funeral or a wedding; heck, even if we were talking about what to wear to a convention in general, I'd be willing to talk about discretion in wardrobe. However, since we're talking about how men are treating women, and how to stop that, I think it's not the right time to address if certain costumes are appropriate or not. Because this type of harassment can happen no matter how much skin is shown, and no clothing is a form of consent*, it's not the right time to have a discussion on exposure levels.

* I want to elaborate on this point. Clothing sends a message. If you want to get hired for a job, don't show up in a ratty old t-shirt. Wearing nice clothes sends the message that you care about the job you're applying for. Any employer is well within their rights to judge your fitness for the job based on how you're dressed when you interview. They don't have to, but they can. Showing up in stained, smelly clothing is a big sign that says "don't hire me". However, at a convention, there is no such thing as clothing that says "touch me", "take upskirt photos of me" or otherwise "harass me". There's clothing that says "I'm willing to appear in public wearing a thong". There are outfits that say "I'm a fan of this character". But there are zero outfits that say "you can touch my ass without formal consent". Such outfits do not exist.

I could not agree more Pez. And, you are correct, I should not have said that last snippet. I knew it when I clicked 'Post'. I became instant forum-fodder.

Apr 4, 2013#16

LittleKagsin

drawn_inward said:
I could not agree more Pez. And, you are correct, I should not have said that last snippet. I knew it when I clicked 'Post'. I became instant forum-fodder.

If it helps, I think you just worded what you meant in the wrong way. I still like you.

Apr 4, 2013#17

Dave

LittleKagsin said:
I don't want guys or anyone to be afraid to approach me. I mean, when I'm cosplaying, I'm basically saying 'I love this character so much I've spent way more money and time on it than I probably should have, come talk to me about it!!!'

But the difference is that some people see these cosplayers not as the character but as a hot chick with cleavage. And they think it's a compliment to say, "Man, you are so hot!!" It changes it from an appreciation of the character into something that is sexualized. While the outfits themselves are sexualized to begin with, in this case it's directed at the person and not the character.

Apr 4, 2013#18

North_Ranger

This is why I always ask first before I take a picture of any cosplayer, male or female. And if I say something, I compliment the outfit or the person's portrayal of their character, not their physical characteristics. But I've only been to Ropecon, which while the biggest 'con in my country is still nothing compared to the likes of PAX or Comi-Con. Maybe it's the old Finnish adage, "Stupidity concentrates in crowds".

But... do I still have to feel guilty if here on the forums I see a sexy cosplayer and say "... I'll be in my bunk." I thought that was simply short-hand, a humorous quip meaning "Wow, I find that very sexually appealing" without being creepy.

I'm honestly asking.

Apr 4, 2013#19

Necronic

The problem is that the outfits are literally designed to be stared at. The same would be true of Deadpool or Lady Deadpool. Hell, I would go so far to say that they are meant to be ogled, at least in terms of design. I've seen some 40k cosplay that I would want to go up and touch. None of this is an excuse to say innapropriate things or to touch without asking. But when it comes to looking....I mean...I dunno. They are meant to be stared at, so now you are trying to discern what kind of staring it is. Way too much trouble for me.

Basically just don't act like a mouthbreathing creeper and you'll be fine. This means you North_Ranger

Apr 4, 2013#20

Tress

drawn_inward said:
I understand what you mean here, but I honestly think that this extends out to the entire male population. Do jock types not gawk and say disrespectful things to cheer/dance girls? Have you been to college? I'd say that the majority of dudes in college are like you describe. I've seen some ridiculous behavior at rock concerts, and have spent some concerts helping young ladies get out of ~~moshpits~~ grope-pits. I've since stopped trying to get close to the stage.

I don't disagree with you, I was just keeping the focus on conventions and geek culture for this thread.

Apr 4, 2013#21

Bones

my sig represents what is the wrong way to approach a cosplayer.
what a weirdo pervert would say, "Wow, that costume really accents your tits, may I lick them?"

Apr 4, 2013#22

Shawn

I'm married.
The concept of beautiful women outside my relationship is beyond my comprehension.

Apr 4, 2013#23

Jay

Seriously though.

I see where some cosplayers come from and I expect as much when folks go to Cons where a huge assortment of people in different social standings, wildly different personalities and values merge into a mess where people are encouraged to judge each other.

In general I feel that it's hypocritical to state, "HEY you're staring at my 90% exposed bits, this is 37% over my comfort level!!!"

Comon.

Sex sells.

You will be looked at regardless of what you do at those places.

And the better you look, the more attention you'll get.

This is why 95% of all cosplay I see is mostly female and the reason why the more popular cosplayers out there know this AND exploit this.

Here's an example.... Jessica Nigri.

She might be a complete sweetheart and have a huge assortment of positive things to say about her (I'm serious, no puns)

However, most of her pictures will consist of her to show most of the boobage she can offer with a pedestal pushing up the daisies, the mid-riff, most of her legs and MORE!

She knows it and she exploits it and has a huge following because of this. People go to cons for different reasons.

Then you have other cosplayers who enjoy cosplay for the sake of it, out of enjoyment, like Kags for example, she's cute, sweet and witty (I just wanted to say that cause I'm her #1 fan) but most of her costumes have been creative rather than exploitative of her feminine assets.

There's a clear difference between different levels of cosplayers and people, just like in highschool, like in college, like at clubs or at work are going to act like.... people.

Sure people can be assholes to cosplayers who don't deserve such things to happen to them but that's just what happens.

Good luck to them though.

WHERES MAH PACKAGE

Apr 4, 2013#24

GasBandit

Jay said:
Here's an example.... Jessica Nigri.

"Oh, right! Because you walked into Strippers' Discount Warehouse and said, 'Help me showcase my INTELLECT.'"

Apr 4, 2013#25

Espy

I think it's possible to have two entirely different discussions about this that don't counter each other. 1. We can talk about guys being assholes no matter what a girl wears, because this is a huge problem. If you are a guy then don't be a dick. Don't be insulting or harass women (or other men). It's wrong. It doesn't matter if her boobs are popping out or if shes in a burka or if shes totally naked. It's wrong no matter what.
2. There can be an important discussion for cosplayers to have amongst themselves about how they feel about the sexualization of characters. Are they comfortable wearing super skimpy costumes or do many feel they have to in order to get attention? The reality is that if you wear a big sign that says look at me people will look at you. Thats just life. And any costume is basically a big sign that says "look at me I'm in a costume" even if people aren't exposing their naughty parts. How sexualized those costumes get... well, personally I'm not a fan overly sexualized costumes but in the end it shouldn't matter what they wear. People should still treat them with respect.

Apr 4, 2013#26

strawman

When my (fictional) little girls play dress up, sure, I'd like them to dress up like role models that aren't unrealistically oversexualized.

Too bad there are few, if any, such role models in society.

Is "Guess you can't play dress up without being sexually objectified! Too bad!" really the best answer our society has?

Apr 4, 2013#27

Gilgamesh

This is very simple:

Don't complain if some guy/girl is creeping on you/staring at you when you're dressed seductively. It doesn't matter if that's your favorite character, or that it's the artists fault for drawing them that way. There's nothing stopping you as a Cosplayer from creating a more modest version of that character. You dress in something where your tits are 90% showing, your navel is exposed and there is more skin that clothes? Yeah guys/girls are going to drool/stare. It's not different if you're Cosplaying or going out dancing. As a famous man once said: You might not be a stripper, but you're wearing a stripper's uniform.

HOWEVER: I will agree that it is NOT ok for someone to say inappropriate things to you, the Cosplayer or even going further as in to touch you in a way you did not allow. Again though, that's just common sense in a way that's not even allowed in public.

I don't understand the point of this movement, as people already know what's socially acceptable and what is not. You will get whistled at/cat called while in Cosplay at a Con just the way you would wearing a short skirt and passing a construction site. It's not OK for them to do it, but if you already know it's going to happen, and you know that these people don't care that it's not ok, and most of all it's not illegal (unless there's forceful touching) there's not much a movement can do.

Apr 4, 2013#28

Chad Sexington

Gilgamesh said:
as people already know what's socially acceptable .

I don't mean this snarkily, but I'm not sure that people do. I have had conversations with people who genuinely don't seem to understand how it feels to be women who are catcalled/touched without consent. Obviously I can't fully know their minds, and maybe they are willfully ignorant, but I think there is a not-insignificant number of people who live removed enough from social norms to be surprised by what isn't acceptable.

Apr 4, 2013#29

Bones

the article is clear, this is not about being oogled, this about the things people say and do. when you touch someone you cross a very clear line, if it is not clear to you prepare to be hit in the face HARD with a baton by the nice man with the badge, gun, and judge dredd helmet.(sorry Officer_Charon you are an easy insert for that line). I believe that being oogled is a part of the territory of anyone putting themselves out for public view. There is little that can be done about that, however, when you say uncouth things like "You got a nice set of cans, mind if I lick em..." you are playing a dangerous game.

the long and short is that people are dirty frickin d-bags either out of ignorance or attitude. I am just saddened this is a big enough issue to warrant an article on the matter.[DOUBLEPOST=1365128547][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:
When my (fictional) little girls play dress up, sure, I'd like them to dress up like role models that aren't unrealistically oversexualized.

Too bad there are few, if any, such role models in society.

Is "Guess you can't play dress up without being sexually objectified! Too bad!" really the best answer our society has?

two words for you: Samus Aran :3

Apr 4, 2013#30

Chad Sexington

Bones said:
two words for you: Samus Aran :3

yeeeah but:

Apr 4, 2013#31

Bones

yes, but this is a character who never actually does that in the games, who spends the entire game in badass power armor. I mean I can pull out some sexy my little pony cosplay if you want to make a counter-point but it feels rather silly.

actually screw it....

My+little+pony+Cosplay.+Found+this+and+thought+it+was_5544a6_3193266.jpg

Apr 4, 2013#32

Chad Sexington

Bones said:
yes, but this is a character who never actually does that in the games, who spends the entire game in badass power armor. I mean I can pull out some sexy my little pony cosplay if you want to make a counter-point but it feels rather silly.

Yeah, no, I was just trying to be silly.

Apr 5, 2013#33

Necronic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Battle

Apr 5, 2013#34

figmentPez

I think the problem with ogling is not that staring is a problem, it's that women have very few options to enforce personal boundaries. I think most cosplayers want to be looked at to some extent, and it's really hard to know if someone is examining the stitching on a hemline or is picturing that hemline removed all-together. The problem is that there's no socially accepted way to say "your staring is making me uncomfortable, please move on" and reliably get any sort of compliance. First, women are shamed into thinking that saying that is an unreasonable request, when it shouldn't be an imposition on a man at all to stop lurking about. Second is that many guys actually do think it's their right to stare at women, and they might even get violent when told to stop.

There are times when staring becomes creepy. Remember Panda ? She had a fantastic Goblin Queen costume, but few pics of it exist because she changed out of it halfway through the day after a guy followed her around staring at her and muttering under his breath. She felt unsafe and changed into a different costume because of it. That's not the way it should be.

Apr 5, 2013#35

Bowielee

The Male Gaze rears it's ugly head again.

Apr 5, 2013#36

General Specific

If it's wrong to harass women in bikinis at the beach, it is wrong to harass women in skimpy costumes at a convention.

Apr 5, 2013#37

Charlie Don't Surf

General Specific said:
it's wrong to harass women

full stop. statement is correct

Apr 5, 2013#38

Bowielee

Charlie Don't Surf said:
full stop. statement is correct

Counter argument, I'll harrass the hell out of a woman who's wearing a busted up ensemble. It's for her own good *snap*.

What you mean is It's wrong to sexually harrass a woman.

Apr 7, 2013#39

Bubble181

And it's arguing semantics. I know people who'll absolutely agree that harassment is wrong, but still think it's perfectly fine to throw wolf whistles at girls in short shorts because they don't consider it harassment.

I'm still of the opinion that a) if you dress up in *skimpy* clothing, you can expect people to look; b) there's a huge difference between looking appreciatively for 5 seconds and staring/ogling in a bothering/irritating fashion and c) no matter what you're doing, if it makes the other person uncomfortable, you should probably not do it - once again returning to the "my freedom ends where another's begins" I like so much.

Apr 7, 2013#40

Officer_Charon

I find this whole thing highly interesting from a security standpoint, as in two weeks I'll be heading Security at our local convention. There's a group of guys from a Klingon group who form the line of the security team (checking badges and whatnot), and I'm there to give it some teeth.

Normally I'd just be thinking from a property crimes/violent crimes perspective, but this has given me something else to think about. And like I mentioned in Kags' thread, I have a manner to enforce it with, provided that the potential offender in question doesn't "get it." Thanks to y'all for reminding of this.

Apr 7, 2013#41

figmentPez

Officer_Charon said:
Thanks to y'all for reminding of this.

If you need more reminder, go watch the video in this post, at about 5:50 where Took talks about some jerk who was so insistent on touching her face she had to choke him to get him to realize he needed to back off. Other cosplayers talk about unwanted attention as well.

Apr 8, 2013#42

Bubble181

Officer_Charon said:
Normally I'd just be thinking from a property crimes/violent crimes perspective, but this has given me something else to think about.

This is a large part of the problem, I think. Yes, that you, personally, officer Charon, thought! Erm, eh, I mean, security, guards, police officers etc, all those kinds of jobs where it's someone's job to check for trouble etc,tend to be held very predominantly by men. Even for sensitive, open-minded men who DO care about this sort of thing, it's something that's simply usually not at the forefront of your mind, and certainly not the boss'. If there even is a security plan, it'll usually involve making sure everybody gets checked on leaving, or everyone is double-checked upon entering, and making sure there are no "major disturbances". While for a lot of people, it's the smaller things that determine the atmosphere of an event. It's one of those things where I am still a strong believer that we need more awareness training and such.

Go forth and be aware, Officer Charon. Be very aware ;-)

Apr 9, 2013#43

Bumble the Boy Wonder

Apr 9, 2013#44

Chad Sexington

Bubble181 said:
This is a large part of the problem, I think. Yes, that you, personally, officer Charon, thought! Erm, eh, I mean, security, guards, police officers etc, all those kinds of jobs where it's someone's job to check for trouble etc,tend to be held very predominantly by men. Even for sensitive, open-minded men who DO care about this sort of thing, it's something that's simply usually not at the forefront of your mind, and certainly not the boss'. If there even is a security plan, it'll usually involve making sure everybody gets checked on leaving, or everyone is double-checked upon entering, and making sure there are no "major disturbances". While for a lot of people, it's the smaller things that determine the atmosphere of an event. It's one of those things where I am still a strong believer that we need more awareness training and such.

Go forth and be aware, Officer Charon. Be very aware ;-)

TL;DR: Bubble hates Office Charon's penis

Apr 9, 2013#45

Officer_Charon

But... he can't.... Everyone LOVES Officer_Charon's penis...

Apr 9, 2013#46

Cajungal

Except your wife, apparently.

:awesome:

Full circle!

Apr 9, 2013#47

Gilgamesh

Cajungal said:
Except your wife, apparently.

Full circle jerk!

Really?

Apr 9, 2013#48

Officer_Charon

*raises eyebrow*

While I see what you did there, I postulate that I have one solid piece of evidence to the contrary.

Who is currently sleeping.

Apr 9, 2013#49

Tress

Officer_Charon said:
*raises eyebrow*

While I see what you did there, I postulate that I have one solid piece of evidence to the contrary.

Who is currently sleeping.

This is the first thing that popped into my head:

Richard Pryor said:
And you can tell when you done made good love to your woman... 'cuz she will go to sleep. That's when you really are "Macho Man!"

"I put your ass to sleep... I'm Macho Man!"

Apr 10, 2013#50

Bubble181

Officer_Charon said:
But... he can't.... Everyone LOVES Officer_Charon's penis...

Do you really want an owl munching on your acorn?

Apr 10, 2013#51

Terrik

Bubble181 said:
Do you really want an owl munching on your acorn?

Think of it as two furry mice that share a tail. That'll do ya.

Apr 10, 2013#52

figmentPez

A reminder that male cosplayers get harassed as well:

Apr 12, 2013#53

fade

No one deserves to be harassed. But it is certainly true that these outfits were designed by their artists to evoke a sexual response. There is no way you can stop someone from--to be completely frank--fantasizing about having sex with you. Here's the thing--that's nature. People fantasize about having sex with other people. Many of those outfits are designed to elicit exactly that response. Acting on that fantasy in a socially inappropriate way is the bad thing, not the fantasy itself.

But see, here's the other thing. I can admire the execution of the concept too. That's the great thing about it. It's actually the same with the comic page itself. I can feel a sexual attraction to the woman represented by the drawing, and be bowled over by the technical execution of the artistry. Nothing short of chemical injections or castration will stop the first. But that doesn't mean I should act inappropriately. I shouldn't.

Apr 12, 2013#54

Tress

fade said:
But that doesn't mean I should act inappropriately. I shouldn't.

That's the heart of it. I don't think anyone here is arguing that one shouldn't be sexually attracted to cosplayers ever. Just don't be a creep about it.

Apr 12, 2013#55

Bones

fade said:
No one deserves to be harassed. But it is certainly true that these outfits were designed by their artists to evoke a sexual response. There is no way you can stop someone from--to be completely frank--fantasizing about having sex with you. Here's the thing--that's nature. People fantasize about having sex with other people. Many of those outfits are designed to elicit exactly that response. Acting on that fantasy in a socially inappropriate way is the bad thing, not the fantasy itself.

But see, here's the other thing. I can admire the execution of the concept too. That's the great thing about it. It's actually the same with the comic page itself. I can feel a sexual attraction to the woman represented by the drawing, and be bowled over by the technical execution of the artistry. Nothing short of chemical injections or castration will stop the first. But that doesn't mean I should act inappropriately. I shouldn't.

I think thats the whole point, its not that there are people having fantasies, its that they are saying and doing things that are inappropriate, I am sure everyone expects someone to oogle them, thats not the point of the moment. It is that those interacting need to remember there is a human being in the costume who doesn't want to be told things like all the ways you would have sex with them or being groped and fondled.

Apr 12, 2013#56

fade

I'm not necessarily talking to anyone here, but I have gotten the impression around the web that there are quite a few people that think even attraction is inappropriate. Not in so many words, but it's the distillation of what they're saying.

Apr 12, 2013#57

Bones

well no one wants to be objectified, I would assume that is the basis of that feeling.

Apr 12, 2013#58

fade

That is never going to happen. Objectification is the way the human brain works, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Only objectifying is the bad thing.

Apr 12, 2013#59

Fun Size

Also, I would totally dig being objectified.

Just once...

Apr 12, 2013#60

sixpackshaker

Fun Size said:
Also, I would totally dig being objectified.

Just once...

Apr 12, 2013#61

Ravenpoe

Fun Size said:
Also, I would totally dig being objectified.

Just once...

So, Fun Size, huh? Let's see if you live up to that name.

Apr 12, 2013#62

Fun Size

Sweet.

Now cut it out. I'm more that just a collection of smart ass remarks for you guys to read and forget whenever you feel like it.

Pigs.

Apr 12, 2013#63

GasBandit

Fun Size said:
Sweet.

Now cut it out. I'm more that just a collection of smart ass remarks for you guys to read and forget whenever you feel like it.

Pigs.

I objectify you all the time! I classify you as an ottoman. Or possibly a footstool.

Apr 12, 2013#64

North_Ranger

You're a stool!

May 28, 2013#65

Bones

http://mostflogged.tumblr.com/post/51608331295/my-cosplay-consent-fanime-adventure

welp MostFlogged just had her first major run in with a creeper. she talks about how she thought it was silly up until now but feels more that it is a valid point that needs to be addressed.

May 28, 2013#66

Dave

The worst part? There's really nothing she can do about it. He took a picture in a public place. Totally legal. He didn't have to erase shit. It is creepy as fuck and makes me want to take a shower, but it's not illegal.

May 28, 2013#67

Gilgamesh

Honestly, she -legally- did the wrong thing by forcefully taking his phone away. She was also wrong that he -invaded her privacy- by taking pictures and video of her in a public place.

If she's upset about the one guy she busted, I can only imagine how she'd feel realizing how many more are out there and then do things to themselves later with said pictures.

May 28, 2013#68

Bones

I don't disagree in the least, I just think its interesting how her change in stance feeds my theory that people have no interest in an issue or consider it silly until they are personally affected on a complete side note.

May 29, 2013#69

strawman

Out of curiosity, this line made me wonder:

"everyone is more than welcome to ask to take pictures, but you ASK you get that sweet ass CONSENT and everyone goes home happy."

Is she talking about subjectively creepy pictures, or is it the general expectation that every time you take any picture at a con you request permission of the subjects before you take it?

May 29, 2013#70

BananaHands

Welp, now I'm just looking at Jessica Nigri. Thanks, Jay

But yeah, seriously. Cosplayers are people too. Most of them are as awkward and insecure as the rest of us. Let 'em be who they want for a day without harassing 'em. I've seen girls wear less out in Wrigleyville.

May 29, 2013#71

PatrThom

stienman said:
Is she talking about subjectively creepy pictures, or is it the general expectation that every time you take any picture at a con you request permission of the subjects before you take it?

That brings up an interesting point. I'm sure the majority of fen don't seek permission from rightsholders before dressing up as someone's trademarked/copyrighted property, so the idea of picture-takers needing to ask permission is probably (legally, at least) somewhat of a grey area.

--Patrick

May 29, 2013#72

Gilgamesh

BananaHands said:
But yeah, seriously. Cosplayers are people too.

Yep.

BananaHands said:
Most of them are as awkward and insecure as the rest of us.

Not sure what this is supposed to get across to the creepers?

BananaHands said:
Let 'em be who they want for a day without harassing 'em.

They're usually not -harassed- they simply are having pictures taken of them without them liking it's reason. Of course the inappropriate touching discussed earlier is already the line we talked about not crossing.

BananaHands said:
I've seen girls wear less out in Wrigleyville.

They too have their picture taken without their consent for later -use-

May 29, 2013#73

strawman

Well, I suppose the question for me is, "is the con considered a public place" - legally it is, and legally she has no right to seize another person's property based on suspicion of pictures in a public place. The police have nothing actionable in this case. Well, actually they do - she may have committed assault - but that's irrelevant to my question.

The Con rules are in effect, so they can kick people out for whatever reason, so while it's not a legally gray area, the con makes a gray area where the rule is, essentially, "If you annoy other con attendees, we will probably throw you out."

But my question is only about the cosplayers themselves. Do they expect people to request permission to take a picture? If I take a picture without asking permission, am I an annoyance, and should I be reported?

May 29, 2013#74

LittleKagsin

stienman said:
But my question is only about the cosplayers themselves. Do they expect people to request permission to take a picture? If I take a picture without asking permission, am I an annoyance, and should I be reported?

It depends on the cosplayer generally. I, for one, don't expect people to ask permission to take my picture. Some people are actually to shy to ask cosplayers for pictures, so they snap a photo as a cosplayer walks by, or takes a photo from across the room. I'm actually a huge offender of this one because I'm so shy when it comes to asking others for pictures. So, I'm personally not annoyed if people don't ask my permission. I am sad though because it's probably not a good picture in that I'm not in a character pose, or it's probably a pretty bad angle and bad light. If you want a better photo I would always ask.

And if you don't ask permission, no, you shouldn't be reported.

Now if you were to follow a certain cosplayer around and keep taking photos without permission, that moves into creeper territory and if I was the cosplayer being followed, I would go ask him to please leave me alone. If that did nothng, then I would report him.

May 31, 2013#75

figmentPez

This is a screenshot of Yaya Han's twitter right now.

2013_05_31 Yaya Han being harassed at Akon.PNG

Looking through that revolting hashtag, what she quoted is mild. There are explicit threats of rape and other assault, and it's not just being aimed at Yaya Han. Several other cosplayers have been threatened in the same manner. This is from a trolling group, but there is no way to know if this will remain words on Twitter, or if they (or someone else) will act on these threats in the real world. This is disgusting and completely inappropriate.

Please don't give these trolls any more attention here by mentioning their names or the hashtag they're using.

May 31, 2013#76

Dave

I doubt he's planning to grope anyone and that she's overreacting and being dramatic. Having said that, the guy's joke is out of line and dumb. I haven't looked at the hash tag and I probably won't.

But I must say this: You know what makes the cons not safe for kids? Some of the R rated outfits that are worn. Not saying they deserve the abuse because of it, but you can't cry that the actions of these guys are bad because of THE CHILDRENZ! when you're wearing your push-up bra and butt-floss. Just my humble take on it. (By the way, I feel the same way about gay pride parades. We get it. You're gay. Now put your dick away.)

May 31, 2013#77

Jay

^

That logical comment made me

May 31, 2013#78

figmentPez

Dave said:
I doubt he's planning to grope anyone and that she's overreacting and being dramatic. Having said that, the guy's joke is out of line and dumb. I haven't looked at the hash tag and I probably won't.

But I must say this: You know what makes the cons not safe for kids? Some of the R rated outfits that are worn. Not saying they deserve the abuse because of it, but you can't cry that the actions of these guys are bad because of THE CHILDRENZ! when you're wearing your push-up bra and butt-floss. Just my humble take on it. (By the way, I feel the same way about gay pride parades. We get it. You're gay. Now put your dick away.)

While I do agree that it's being overly dramatic to claim "think of the children", I also understand why she's talking about safety. The fact is that even if this guy isn't planning physical harassment, some people are, and making a joke about it only perpetuates the mindset that it can be gotten away with. Cosplayers do have to worry about being assaulted at cons, and sometimes verbal threats made over the internet are acted out. It's not possible for them, or us, to know which are a hoax and which are a warning of imminent danger. If I were a father I wouldn't want my daughter going to a convention without an imposing looking guy or a large group with her, and that's sad, going to a convention should at least be as safe as going to the mall on an average day, but it isn't.

Jun 11, 2013#79

evilmike

Here's a new story in Cosplay creepiness:

A company that was creating 360 degree rotating gifs of cosplayers, decided to use the images for another purpose and started selling pillows with the cosplayers pictures on them (specifically a front picture on one side and a backside picture on the opposite). Reacting to community outrage, the company has already stated that it will no longer sell such products.

Carrie Wink broke the story on her Youtube channel:

Marie Grey's account of finding her own image at their booth: here.

Stories at i09 and Oh!Entertainment.

Oct 16, 2013#80

Tress

Seems an appropriate thread for this: Buzzfeed's "What's the creepiest thing someone's said to you while cosplaying?"

Oct 16, 2013#81

Bones

some of these are outright unacceptable sexual harassment, some of them are inappropriate, and some of these are not really wrong, technically sexual harassment and HILARIOUS outside of being inflicted on an actual human being.

the one I dont get is "“I can’t believe I’m really meeting you.” ok seems more star struck than inappropriate.

Oct 16, 2013#82

GasBandit

Bones said:
some of these are outright unacceptable sexual harassment, some of them are inappropriate, and some of these are not really wrong, technically sexual harassment and HILARIOUS outside of being inflicted on an actual human being.

the one I dont get is "“I can’t believe I’m really meeting you.” ok seems more star struck than inappropriate.

Probably involved a fedora. Anything said to a female whilst wearing a fedora is automatically creepy and sexual.

Oct 16, 2013#83

figmentPez

Tress said:
Seems an appropriate thread for this: Buzzfeed's "What's the creepiest thing someone's said to you while cosplaying?"

7. “That’s the scariest but sexiest cosplay I’ve ever seen.”

I'm failing to see why this one is creepy because I have no idea what costume it was said to. If that were said to someone dressed up as a nurse from Silent Hill, that seems like it would be the ideal description of the costume.

8. “Girl, you all kinds of fine. Thor, you’re so lucky, dude.”

Another one I'm failing to see the creep factor on. Am I missing something?

A lot of of those are really disgusting, and obviously inappropriate, but why dilute the impact of the article by including comments that are dependent on context to be creepy, or are just awkward compliments?

Oct 17, 2013#84

Necronic

Telling a girl you don't know that she is sexy is sort of innapropriate. Its not that bad, but its innapropriate.

Oct 17, 2013#85

Charlie Don't Surf

figmentPez said:
7. “That’s the scariest but sexiest cosplay I’ve ever seen.”

I'm failing to see why this one is creepy because I have no idea what costume it was said to. If that were said to someone dressed up as a nurse from Silent Hill, that seems like it would be the ideal description of the costume.

8. “Girl, you all kinds of fine. Thor, you’re so lucky, dude.”

Another one I'm failing to see the creep factor on. Am I missing something?

A lot of of those are really disgusting, and obviously inappropriate, but why dilute the impact of the article by including comments that are dependent on context to be creepy, or are just awkward compliments?

Those are all wrong, man

Oct 17, 2013#86

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
8. “Girl, you all kinds of fine. Thor, you’re so lucky, dude.”

Another one I'm failing to see the creep factor on. Am I missing something?

She was cosplaying Thor's gender-swapped sister! Unless you support incest*? :troll:

*ok, technically Thor's gender-swapped adopted sister. Still, that's some Greg on Marcia Brady territory.

Oct 17, 2013#87

Tinwhistler

I'm of two minds about the sexy cosplay thing.

On one side of the coin, some of those women are hot as hell.

On the other side of the coin, a woman wearing a hot as hell costume is still a person. No matter what my primitive monkey urges are, I have no sense of entitlement about their bodies. I don't have the right to touch them inappropriately (which is pretty much any touching at all, unless it is asked for), it's certainly in extremely poor taste to make certain kinds of comments.

But as Russel Brand once said in an interview: I'm a human being. I have instincts. If your tits are hanging out, and I think they look nice, I'm gonna give them an appreciative glance before moving on.

Oct 17, 2013#88

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Those are all wrong, man

But why?

Oct 17, 2013#89

Charlie Don't Surf

figmentPez said:
But why?

Because they make most people uncomfortable? I can't speak for everyone, but with someone that you don't know personally, it's probably going to make them uncomfortable to have someone they aren't attracted to talk about how sexy they are. It would be the same for you and I if someone we weren't attracted to said we looked really sexy. I might be flattered, but I would still feel hella uncomfortable.

Oct 17, 2013#90

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Because they make most people uncomfortable? I can't speak for everyone, but with someone that you don't know personally, it's probably going to make them uncomfortable to have someone they aren't attracted to talk about how sexy they are. It would be the same for you and I if someone we weren't attracted to said we looked really sexy. I might be flattered, but I would still feel hella uncomfortable.

Exactly. The secret to not being creepy is to be attractive. You can get away with so much more when you're hot.

Oct 17, 2013#91

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Because they make most people uncomfortable? I can't speak for everyone, but with someone that you don't know personally, it's probably going to make them uncomfortable to have someone they aren't attracted to talk about how sexy they are. It would be the same for you and I if someone we weren't attracted to said we looked really sexy. I might be flattered, but I would still feel hella uncomfortable.

If I were, say, dressed as gender-swapped Star Sapphire, I'd definitely want to be told I had a sexy costume. That would be the point of the costume, to be sexy. That was I was trying to get at. "The scariest and sexiest costume" seems to me to be the appropriate compliment to give to a Silent Hill nurse, or for many female vampire characters. The point of the character is to be scary and sexy at the same time, and being told that you correctly embody the character seems to be the appropriate compliment.

Now if someone went up to someone playing Annie and Mr. Tibbers from League of Legends and said the same thing... Yeah, it's pretty damn creepy to tell someone dressed as a child with a teddy bear that they're sexy. The comment needs more context than was provided to be creepy.

Also, since when is "fine" a sexual compliment, or telling a guy he's lucky to be with a beautiful woman seen as creepy? Maybe it would have been better to compliment them as a couple, rather than just the guy only, but to put this on a list of the creepiest comments just doesn't fit for me. It's not a good compliment by any means, and it should probably be saved for people you know personally, but it's not even sexually suggestive, let alone blatantly sexual like some of this other stuff. I'm not defending it as something that should be said, I'm just questioning if it really deserves to be on the list as an example of "never go there".

Oct 17, 2013#92

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
Now if someone went up to someone playing Annie and Mr. Tibbers from League of Legends and said the same thing...

I've tried to convince the little woman that we should do that as a couple's costume for halloween, in the past. Her as Annie, and me in a great big psycho bear suit as Mr. Tibbers. She doesn't think enough people would get it though, and isn't interested in going to cons.

Oct 17, 2013#93

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
Exactly. The secret to not being creepy is to be attractive. You can get away with so much more when you're hot.

http://www.break.com/video/ugc/more-sexual-harassment-training-289293
I'm pretty sure I've posted this before

Oct 17, 2013#94

GasBandit

Tinwhistler said:
http://www.break.com/video/ugc/more-sexual-harassment-training-289293
I'm pretty sure I've posted this before

I think you have, too. I wish I had remembered it this time.

Oct 17, 2013#95

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
I've tried to convince the little woman that we should do that as a couple's costume for halloween, in the past. Her as Annie, and me in a great big psycho bear suit as Mr. Tibbers. She doesn't think enough people would get it though, and isn't interested in going to cons.

Let's see, LoL has 32 million users that play at least monthly, but I can't find stats for just the US. The world is about 7.1 billion people, but only maybe 30% have some sort of broadband access. I'm sure the overlap isn't perfect, but I'd say 2.1 Billion people in regions that are affluent enough to play LoL, like the US is. That comes out to about 1.5% of global broadband subscribers play League of Legends. That's some pretty hefty numbers.

Oct 17, 2013#96

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
Let's see, LoL has 32 million users that play at least monthly, but I can't find stats for just the US. The world is about 7.1 billion people, but only maybe 30% have some sort of broadband access. I'm sure the overlap isn't perfect, but I'd say 2.1 Billion people in regions that are affluent enough to play LoL, like the US is. That comes out to about 1.5% of global broadband subscribers play League of Legends. That's some pretty hefty numbers.

League is still pretty niche. Nobody I work with is aware of it. Even among my RL gamer friends, only two know what League is, and that's because I showed them - and one of them wasn't interested enough to stick with it. Oh, but that other buddy of mine? Took it WAY too seriously and had to give it up to preserve his health and sanity. So he'd have gotten it. But the other 50 or so people I deal with routinely probably wouldn't.

Oct 17, 2013#97

linglingface

The most inappropriate thing that's been said to me was at SDCC a couple years ago. I was in my Amber and this guy asked for a hug. He had a camera with the memory all full and gushed about all the "pretty girls" at con and how he wanted photos of everyone, so he asked for a hug. I said "sure..." and during the hug he asked, "Hey, is it okay if I get a little ass grab too?" Fuck off.

Oct 17, 2013#98

Dei

GasBandit said:
I've tried to convince the little woman that we should do that as a couple's costume for halloween, in the past. Her as Annie, and me in a great big psycho bear suit as Mr. Tibbers. She doesn't think enough people would get it though, and isn't interested in going to cons.

My daughter is going to be Annie for Denver Comic con next year. My husband refuses to be Tibbers.

Oct 17, 2013#99

GasBandit

Seems to me Tibbers would be a good medium-high level costume challenge, too. I mean, Annie's a dress and a wig, maybe one of those headband things. Tibbers though, you can't just throw on a bear costume. There's the stitches, the glowing eyes, the claws and maybe even the teeth. A really good Tibbers costume could be tricky to pull off without a dedicated tailor and access to an injection molder.

Oct 17, 2013#100

Dirona

figmentPez said:
But why?

For 7... it's rather odd, and may or may not be welcome. So I think the cosplayers response will vary.

For 8 ("Girl, you all kinds of fine. Thor, you’re so lucky, dude.”) Having a complete stranger comment on your appearance then talk over you to specualte on your sex life/relationship? Not OK. Also, seriously shitty grammar (offensive in it's own special way, but not creepy necessarily).

Also, keep in mind that these are the creepiest things that these women have experienced, and so may not seem creepy to another individual - they certainly didn't to the people who said them! And of course, this is not a list of top 10 creepy things said to cosplayers ever. That, I think, would be a very different list.

Oct 18, 2013#101

Telephius

GasBandit said:
Probably involved a fedora. Anything said to a female whilst wearing a fedora is automatically creepy and sexual.

I can be creepy and sexual without my hat, thank you very much!

Also blame the perpetrator not the hat. We shouldn't condone hat blaming here.

Oct 18, 2013#102

GasBandit

Telephius said:
I can be creepy and sexual without my hat, thank you very much!

Also blame the perpetrator not the hat. We shouldn't condone hat blaming here.

You... You're one of THEM aren't you?

Oct 18, 2013#103

Necronic

That's amazing.

Oct 18, 2013#104

PatrThom

The "peeing" one had me snickering.

--Patrick

Oct 18, 2013#105

figmentPez

Telephius said:
Also blame the perpetrator not the hat. We shouldn't condone hat blaming here.

I find it tremendously ironic that the fedora has become a symbol of male sexism, because it's named after the lead female character in the play Fedora, and was originally associated with the women's rights movement over 100 years ago.

Oct 18, 2013#106

DarkAudit

figmentPez said:
I find it tremendously ironic that the fedora has become a symbol of male sexism, because it's named after the lead female character in the play Fedora, and was originally associated with the women's rights movement over 100 years ago.

It's not the hat's fault. It's the fault of the hipster assholes in t-shirts, cargo shorts, and mandals doing it WRONG.

Oct 18, 2013#107

figmentPez

DarkAudit said:
It's not the hat's fault. It's the fault of the hipster assholes in t-shirts, cargo shorts, and mandals doing it WRONG.

So, it's okay to stereotype men by the way they dress? This is the even bigger irony involved in the situation. Feminists crying out "I see you looking at me, assuming I'm a slut because my bra strap is showing! Stop stereotyping me Mr. cargo shorts! I know exactly the type of guy you are because you tuck in your t-shirt and wear sandals!"

Fuck you. I wear cargo shorts because I actually put stuff in those pockets, and they're comfortable. I tuck in my shirt because I wear pouches on my belt for my sunglasses and cellphone. I wear sandals because they're comfortable in hot weather. Fuck you if you assume something about my political or social views because of my clothing. If my clothes are clean and appropriate to the situation, you can fuck off with any further judgement. Unless you're interviewing me for a job situation, you're damn fool to be judging me based on my fashion sense.

Seriously, judging people based on their clothing, and then trying to pawn off the responsibility on some third party that the judged don't know and may have never knowingly interacted with... Who is the real hipster asshole in that situation?

Oct 18, 2013#108

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
hipster assholes in t-shirts, cargo shorts, and mandals

hipster really does just mean "a person I don't like", doesn't it[DOUBLEPOST=1382119876,1382119839][/DOUBLEPOST]

figmentPez said:
So, it's okay to stereotype men by the way they dress? This is the even bigger irony involved in the situation. Feminists crying out "I see you looking at me, assuming I'm a slut because my bra strap is showing! Stop stereotyping me Mr. cargo shorts! I know exactly the type of guy you are because you tuck in your t-shirt and wear sandals!"

Fuck you. I wear cargo shorts because I actually put stuff in those pockets, and they're comfortable. I tuck in my shirt because I wear pouches on my belt for my sunglasses and cellphone. I wear sandals because they're comfortable in hot weather. Fuck you if you assume something about my political or social views because of my clothing. If my clothes are clean and appropriate to the situation, you can fuck off with any further judgement. Unless you're interviewing me for a job situation, you're damn fool to be judging me based on my fashion sense.

Seriously, judging people based on their clothing, and then trying to pawn off the responsibility on some third party that the judged don't know and may have never knowingly interacted with... Who is the real hipster asshole in that situation?

whoa, projecting much?

Oct 18, 2013#109

Krisken

You had me at the first part, Charlie, then you lost me at the end there. So close to a 'like'.

Oct 18, 2013#110

Necronic

I don't think its a symbol of sexism. I think its a symbol of socially maladaptive behavior.[DOUBLEPOST=1382123013,1382122820][/DOUBLEPOST]

figmentPez said:
So, it's okay to stereotype men by the way they dress?

uhm. Yeah absolutely. If someone dresses like they don't care about their appearance I will make assumptions on that. Same if someone clearly cares too much about their appearance. Or if they wear salmon trousers. Clothes say a LOT about you.

Oct 18, 2013#111

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
uhm. Yeah absolutely. If someone dresses like they don't care about their appearance I will make assumptions on that. Same if someone clearly cares too much about their appearance. Or if they wear salmon trousers. Clothes say a LOT about you.

I have dressed pretty slovenly lately since I have no self-esteem and hate myself and my life.

Oct 18, 2013#112

Krisken

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between someone who is a miserable bastard or just enjoys feeling comfortable.

Oct 18, 2013#113

Necronic

I look like I'm homeless from time to time because v0v it feels comfortable. I have no problem with that, but I also know people will wonder if I'm homeless, so I avoid going to a nice restaurant dressed like that. Same with Pez's outfit. I would look at that and say "well he's comfortable and possibly a high functioning autistic engineer" (ala my dad which wears exactly what you described) and that would be it. The problem with "Teh Fedora" is that someone has made the concious decision to wear that AS A FASHION STATEMENT. Its not because it is comfortable. It is because, for some insane reason, they think that it makes them look cool. Let me stress insane. Teh Fedora is something worn for other people to see. Its fashion. Its not funciton. Its not comfort. Its image. And its insane to wear something like that for image when everyone around you says its very unfashionable.

ed/TLDR: The fedora is worn by people who care about their outward appearance but do not care what other people think of it, which is the ONLY REASON to care about your appearance. There's something wrong with that. That's like delusional narcissism.

Oct 18, 2013#114

Krisken

I guess my position is "Who gives a shit?" Why should I care about what someone else is wearing, and really what affect is it going to have on me?

Oct 18, 2013#115

Necronic

None I guess. But I feel that its my duty to help fedorites recover from their sins against logic.

Oct 18, 2013#116

GasBandit

The world will judge you by what you wear. "Clothes make the man," so they say. It is up to you whether you care that the judge you or not. But anyone who has ever dressed up for a wedding, funeral, or job interview and later claims that clothes are no reason to judge someone is fooling themselves, because they know they would judge someone who showed up to one of those events dressed inappropriately.

Oct 18, 2013#117

Dirona

Re: Funeral attire.
I go to a fair number of funerals, geneally because I'm the one presiding. The number of people (old and young and inbetween) that seem to think that blue jeans and sneakers and sweatshirts are appropriate is truly disgusting. I'm all about compassion and comfort and such, but seriously, show some respect for the grieving family you mouth-breathing troglodyte. Ug.

Outside of funerals and (most) weddings, wear whatever the hell you want. I don't care, and I'm not going to comment on it either (unless it's freaking fabulous and I want to know where you got the thing, whatever that may be).

Oct 18, 2013#118

Charlie Don't Surf

Thank god we've moved the topic from women being sexually harassed to being all about men and the hard lives they live maybe being seen as creepy when they wear a shitty hat

Oct 18, 2013#119

Dirona

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Thank god we've moved the topic from women being sexually harassed to being all about men and the hard lives they live maybe being seen as creepy when they wear a shitty hat

Oy! I was deliberately gender neutral.

Oct 18, 2013#120

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Thank god we've moved the topic from women being sexually harassed to being all about men and the hard lives they live maybe being seen as creepy when they wear a shitty hat

TAKE THIS THREAD TO BOLIVIA

Oct 18, 2013#121

Krisken

Charlie, just make this your avatar already.

Oct 18, 2013#122

Charlie Don't Surf

Dirona said:
Oy! I was deliberately gender neutral.

Wasn't referring to you!

Oct 18, 2013#123

Reverent-one

Necronic said:
I look like I'm homeless from time to time because v0v it feels comfortable. I have no problem with that, but I also know people will wonder if I'm homeless, so I avoid going to a nice restaurant dressed like that. Same with Pez's outfit. I would look at that and say "well he's comfortable and possibly a high functioning autistic engineer" (ala my dad which wears exactly what you described) and that would be it. The problem with "Teh Fedora" is that someone has made the concious decision to wear that AS A FASHION STATEMENT. Its not because it is comfortable. It is because, for some insane reason, they think that it makes them look cool. Let me stress insane. Teh Fedora is something worn for other people to see. Its fashion. Its not funciton. Its not comfort. Its image. And its insane to wear something like that for image when everyone around you says its very unfashionable.

ed/TLDR: The fedora is worn by people who care about their outward appearance but do not care what other people think of it, which is the ONLY REASON to care about your appearance. There's something wrong with that. That's like delusional narcissism.

So in other words, fashion isn't subjective, whatever you say goes? I don't even wear/own a fedora and think your hated of them is extreme. It's not really insane for someone to like the look of something just because you don't. It's not something " everyone says is very unfashionable". For example, the main character on White Collar on USA, a smooth, stylish conman type, has a trademark fedora. And that's without referencing older, even bigger names that popularized them *cough*Indiana Jones*cough*.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Thank god we've moved the topic from women being sexually harassed to being all about men and the hard lives they live maybe being seen as creepy when they wear a shitty hat

Everyone agrees sexual harrasment is bad, there's not a lot to discuss there. Which makes it prime material for a derail.

Oct 18, 2013#124

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
So, it's okay to stereotype men by the way they dress? This is the even bigger irony involved in the situation. Feminists crying out "I see you looking at me, assuming I'm a slut because my bra strap is showing! Stop stereotyping me Mr. cargo shorts! I know exactly the type of guy you are because you tuck in your t-shirt and wear sandals!"

Fuck you. I wear cargo shorts because I actually put stuff in those pockets, and they're comfortable. I tuck in my shirt because I wear pouches on my belt for my sunglasses and cellphone. I wear sandals because they're comfortable in hot weather. Fuck you if you assume something about my political or social views because of my clothing. If my clothes are clean and appropriate to the situation, you can fuck off with any further judgement. Unless you're interviewing me for a job situation, you're damn fool to be judging me based on my fashion sense.

Seriously, judging people based on their clothing, and then trying to pawn off the responsibility on some third party that the judged don't know and may have never knowingly interacted with... Who is the real hipster asshole in that situation?

Damn dude, calm down.

Oct 18, 2013#125

figmentPez

Necronic said:
uhm. Yeah absolutely. If someone dresses like they don't care about their appearance I will make assumptions on that. Same if someone clearly cares too much about their appearance. Or if they wear salmon trousers. Clothes say a LOT about you.

I think clothes say far less than facial expressions, and most people I know are regularly wrong about judging the facial expressions of others. Just because clothes are an indication, doesn't mean that they are an absolute, or that people have any idea what they actually mean. From my experience judging that "cargo shorts = misogynist" is about as accurate as assuming that "longhorn sweatshirt = college student". There may be areas of the country where the only people wearing burnt orange longhorn logos are University of Texas students, but not here. You're as likely to see someone wearing longhorns because of a middle school with the same mascot, or a general family affiliation with the college, as you are to see an actual student wearing it.

People like to think that they can judge others by their appearance very quickly and easily, but in my experience most people are wrong far more often that they're right.[DOUBLEPOST=1382135886,1382135726][/DOUBLEPOST]

Krisken said:
I guess my position is "Who gives a shit?" Why should I care about what someone else is wearing, and really what affect is it going to have on me?

You've never been treated badly because of prejudice? Shit, I'm a white male and I've received poor treatment because someone judged me based on appearances. I know that such judgment is part of this world, but I don't like to see the concept promoted as acceptable and accurate.

Oct 18, 2013#126

Ravenpoe

Oct 18, 2013#127

figmentPez

GasBandit said:
The world will judge you by what you wear. "Clothes make the man," so they say. It is up to you whether you care that the judge you or not. But anyone who has ever dressed up for a wedding, funeral, or job interview and later claims that clothes are no reason to judge someone is fooling themselves, because they know they would judge someone who showed up to one of those events dressed inappropriately.

Yes, people will judge others by what they wear, that doesn't make it always good or always right to do so. There are usually well-established social guidelines for how to dress for these standard social events (though there are exceptions. My sister specifically requested that people not wear black to her funeral, but instead dress as if going to the contemporary worship service, a dress-casual situation. Some showed up in suits, some in polos, and none were judged for it by my family.)

The difference is that there is no societal standard that says that "cargo shorts = misogyny" or "fedora = MRA" it's a minority view held by a meme on the internet, and even on the internet the most famous casual fedora wearer I know of is Linkara, who is a vocal feminist. (That's ignoring characters like Indiana Jones and Neil Caffrey.) Judging someone for wearing cargo shorts, when shorts aren't otherwise an inappropriate fashion choice, is like judging someone for wearing a pinstripe suit to an afternoon wedding, because everyone knows that pinstripes are only for business. It's a sick game that people with too much money play, taking fashion that far and using it as a weapon. It happens, but it's not right, and it only reveals who knows and plays the game, not who actually has good character.[DOUBLEPOST=1382137102,1382136834][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Thank god we've moved the topic from women being sexually harassed to being all about men and the hard lives they live maybe being seen as creepy when they wear a shitty hat

Well, apparently, everyone agrees that a woman dressing in skimpy clothes does not mean that she's a whore. Despite the fact that a woman wearing next to nothing and standing on certain street corners is a social cue that one is, in fact, a whore. Which is a good thing, because judging people based on their clothing alone, and no other factors, is pretty damn stupid.

However, for some bizarre reason, this logic doesn't seem to carry over to other areas, and I'm baffled as to why.

Oct 18, 2013#128

GasBandit

figmentPez said:
Well, apparently, everyone agrees that a woman dressing in skimpy clothes does not mean that she's a whore. Despite the fact that a woman wearing next to nothing and standing on certain street corners is a social cue that one is, in fact, a whore.

Oct 18, 2013#129

figmentPez

Ravenpoe said:

Back to being relevant. Look, she has her cleavage on display, that clearly means she wants me to stare at her breasts and not at her face, right? She's wearing a corset, that means she's a whore right? I'm allowed to judge people based on what they wear, and then treat them according to my flawless judgement, right?

Oct 18, 2013#130

DarkAudit

Oct 18, 2013#131

Telephius

GasBandit said:
You... You're one of THEM aren't you?

What makes you say that?

Oct 18, 2013#132

Telephius

FAIL EDIT/Appendum: Didn't even mean to help derail the thread, well not that much lol

On topic of the thread, I really want to know how the person who creeped out Lady Vader delivered his(assuming) line that it made the list of the inappropriate comments. The look on Loki and Thor's face is the most appropriate capture for the theme of that link, Loki's derision and disgust paired with Thor's "I NEED AN ADULT."

Oct 18, 2013#133

Krisken

figmentPez said:
You've never been treated badly because of prejudice? Shit, I'm a white male and I've received poor treatment because someone judged me based on appearances. I know that such judgment is part of this world, but I don't like to see the concept promoted as acceptable and accurate.

Lighten up, Francis. I was saying I don't care what people are wearing and judging them by it is wrong no matter who the target is.

Oct 18, 2013#134

Charlie Don't Surf

figmentPez said:
, I'm a white male and I've received poor treatment because someone judged me based on appearances. I know that such judgment is part of this world, but I don't like to see the concept promoted as acceptable and accurate.

HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAH

Oct 18, 2013#135

Krisken

Yes, because only minorities and women have been the target of poor treatment. C'mon, Charlie, you're gonna have to get back to the real world if you want to be taken at face value once in a while.

Oct 18, 2013#136

Gilgamesh

Krisken said:
Yes, because only minorities and women have been the target of poor treatment. C'mon, Charlie, you're gonna have to get back to the real world if you want to be taken at face value once in a while.

Cmon, you really think Charlie has any clue how the real world looks? When in his entire posting time here did it seem he did? It's why he doesn't go out much.

Oct 18, 2013#137

Krisken

Gilgamesh said:
Cmon, you really think Charlie has any clue how the real world looks? When in his entire posting time here did it seem he did? It's why he doesn't go out much.

I know, but I promised to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's not an easy promise to keep, but damn it I'm gonna try.

Oct 18, 2013#138

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm sorry that I don't take the minor inconveniences of white males seriously.

Oct 18, 2013#139

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAH

And that, right there, is why it sucks so much to have a chronic illness. Unless it's a big name like cancer, people laugh at anyone who is in pain but doesn't look sick.

Oct 18, 2013#140

Charlie Don't Surf

figmentPez said:
And that, right there, is why it sucks so much to have a chronic illness. Unless it's a big name like cancer, people laugh at anyone who is in pain but doesn't look sick.

i agree that white male privilege is an illness that must be cured, but i don't think i follow your thread

Oct 18, 2013#141

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i agree that white male privilege is an illness that must be cured, but i don't think i follow your thread

Apparently you're not aware that I spent more than a dozen years in constant pain due to an undiagnosed medical condition, and I still have to put up with severe amounts of pain as well as periodic bouts of paralysis, among other serious health problems. Despite that I look reasonably healthy, and I have been treated like shit by people who think that someone has to look ill in order to be ill. So I've been through a lot more fucking problems than you have ever dreamed of.

Oct 18, 2013#142

Charlie Don't Surf

figmentPez said:
Apparently you're not aware that I spent more than a dozen years in constant pain due to an undiagnosed medical condition, and I still have to put up with severe amounts of pain as well as periodic bouts of paralysis, among other serious health problems. Despite that I look reasonably healthy, and I have been treated like shit by people who think that someone has to look ill in order to be ill. So I've been through a lot more fucking problems than you have ever dreamed of.

i'm really sorry to hear that, but i dunno what it has to do with being a white guy and which clothes you wear. lots of people suffer the same stuff due to mental disorders too.

Oct 18, 2013#143

Terrik

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm sorry that I don't take the minor inconveniences of white males seriously.

Im curious, Charlie, how far does this particular idea go? If a white male was treated unfairly in say, Japan for being a foreigner or non-Japanese. would it instill the same sense of injustice as a Japanese person being mistreated for being non-white would? What about a Chinese peron in Japan or vise versa?

Oct 18, 2013#144

Gilgamesh

figmentPez said:
Apparently you're not aware that I spent more than a dozen years in constant pain due to an undiagnosed medical condition, and I still have to put up with severe amounts of pain as well as periodic bouts of paralysis, among other serious health problems. Despite that I look reasonably healthy, and I have been treated like shit by people who think that someone has to look ill in order to be ill. So I've been through a lot more fucking problems than you have ever dreamed of.

He won't get it.

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i'm really sorry to hear that, but i dunno what it has to do with being a white guy and which clothes you wear. lots of people suffer the same stuff due to mental disorders too.

And there it is.

Oct 18, 2013#145

figmentPez

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i'm really sorry to hear that, but i dunno what it has to do with being a white guy and which clothes you wear. lots of people suffer the same stuff due to mental disorders too.

Let me connect the dots for you. I am a white male, a group the least likely to be judged by appearances. Despite that I have still received poor treatment because I look healthy and people therefore expect me to be healthy. When I don't do what they expect a healthy person to do, they assumed I was lazy, lying, etc. If even I have been judged based on appearances then it should be pretty fucking obvious why it's important what other people think.

Fedoras and cargo shorts are a minor issue. Not many people are even affected by it. However, it's the hypocrisy of the issue that bothers me, and the fact that people don't even see it. Just because it is a minor issue does not mean it isn't still wrong. Stealing some waiter's $1 tip off of the table may be tiny compared to stealing someone's wallet, or emptying out their entire home, but it's still wrong. If people can't see why stealing a dollar is wrong, then they don't really understand why stealing is wrong at all. That's the understanding I'm trying to get across here. Prejudice isn't wrong only when it reaches a certain threshold, it is wrong, period. If you don't understand why that is, then you don't really understand why any prejudice is wrong.

Oct 18, 2013#146

Ravenpoe

Gilgamesh said:
And there it is.

I'm not sure where the zinger is? I think Charlie was asking an honest question, one that came across my mind was well. I'm not sure where the discussion changed from judging people based on what they wear, and judging people for not looking sick.[DOUBLEPOST=1382156802,1382156622][/DOUBLEPOST]

figmentPez said:
Let me connect the dots for you. I am a white male, a group the least likely to be judged by appearances. Despite that I have still received poor treatment because I look healthy and people therefore expect me to be healthy. When I don't do what they expect a healthy person to do, they assumed I was lazy, lying, etc. If even I have been judged based on appearances then it should be pretty fucking obvious why it's important what other people think.

Fedoras and cargo shorts are a minor issue. Not many people are even affected by it. However, it's the hypocrisy of the issue that bothers me, and the fact that people don't even see it. Just because it is a minor issue does not mean it isn't still wrong. Stealing some waiter's $1 tip off of the table may be tiny compared to stealing someone's wallet, or emptying out their entire home, but it's still wrong. If people can't see why stealing a dollar is wrong, then they don't really understand why stealing is wrong at all. That's the understanding I'm trying to get across here. Prejudice isn't wrong only when it reaches a certain threshold, it is wrong, period. If you don't understand why that is, then you don't really understand why any prejudice is wrong.

I think it's the zealousness of which you reacted to this thread that confuses most people. I really don't think anyone here honestly assumes that anyone that wears cargo shorts or fedoras is automatically a bad person. It's similar to pointing out popped collars (though socks and sandals immediately make you terrible.)

You're over reacting, and really need to calm down. Maybe don't click this thread for awhile.

Oct 18, 2013#147

Krisken

I think it's a question of 'what you see isn't always what you get'. Hell, we've been told since childhood not to 'judge a book by its cover'. This is just another reason why, since what you don't know about someone makes a big difference.

Oct 18, 2013#148

Charlie Don't Surf

I will totally grant that it's really shitty that guys have basically no shot at getting custody in a divorce. I hope that's fixed in society and in the future, etc etc.

I got male discrimination for liking 'girly' shows. But I mean. There's a lot more female discrimination from the whole patriarchy thing than that.

Oct 18, 2013#149

Ravenpoe

Also, just to point out, judging people based on how they look or dress is not inherently wrong, period. Can it be? Yes, but it's an automatic function of our brain. If someone is dressed like a cop, and you assume they're a cop, is this inherently wrong? If someone is wearing a band t-shirt, is it inherently wrong to assume they like that band? If you're in an area with known gang activity, and a group of people wearing gang colors begin walking towards you, is it inherently wrong to be on guard?

Oct 18, 2013#150

Charlie Don't Surf

Ravenpoe said:
a group of people wearing gang colors begin walking towards you, is it inherently wrong to be on guard?

are they black

this is important

Oct 18, 2013#151

Gilgamesh

Charlie Don't Surf said:
are they black

this is important

Ravenpoe said:
I think Charlie was asking an honest question, one that came across my mind was well.

Is that one a valid one too?

Oct 18, 2013#152

Charlie Don't Surf

Gilgamesh said:
Is that one a valid one too?

fuck no, if you didn't know i was joking there, you need glasses

Oct 18, 2013#153

Cajungal

Ravenpoe said:
If someone is wearing a band t-shirt, is it inherently wrong to assume they like that band?

Depending on the rest of their looks, I might assume they were wearing it ironically.

Oct 18, 2013#154

Gilgamesh

Charlie Don't Surf said:
fuck no, if you didn't know i was joking there, you need glasses

Oct 18, 2013#155

Ravenpoe

Charlie Don't Surf said:
are they black

this is important

Of course they are.

Unless you're in westside Manhattan.

Rough neighborhood.

Oct 18, 2013#156

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
i agree that white male privilege is an illness that must be cured, but i don't think i follow your thread

"Privilege" (or at least the expectation of such) is an illness, regardless of skin color, religion, etc.

Ravenpoe said:
I think it's the zealousness of which [FigmentPez] reacted to this thread that confuses most people.

Exactly.

--Patrick

Oct 19, 2013#157

figmentPez

Ravenpoe said:
Also, just to point out, judging people based on how they look or dress is not inherently wrong, period. Can it be? Yes, but it's an automatic function of our brain. If someone is dressed like a cop, and you assume they're a cop, is this inherently wrong? If someone is wearing a band t-shirt, is it inherently wrong to assume they like that band? If you're in an area with known gang activity, and a group of people wearing gang colors begin walking towards you, is it inherently wrong to be on guard?

I think the difference with that is willingness to have that temporary assumption be challenged. Prejudice is holding that negative opinion in defiance of knowledge, thought or reason.

This is a security guard:

This is an airline pilot:

Here's a third image. Without clicking on the thumbnail, tell me if it's a security guard or an airline pilot:

Neither, it's a driver's uniform, and it's mannequin, not a person. Appearances are damn hard to judge by sometimes. Their uniforms are fairly similar in appearance. Mistaking one for the other is not an unreasonable occurrence. However, if someone insists that a security guard knows how to fly a plane just because they look like a pilot, then you've got a problem. If they try to make a security guard actually fly a plane, then you've potentially got a huge problem. Making assumptions is unavoidable, and most of the time helpful to function in life. The problem comes when we cling to our assumptions after they've been proven untrue or harmful. Building up unnecessary assumptions, especially those judging people's beliefs or character, is tremendously harmful to the individual building up those assumptions.

That's the difference between... I don't know what term to use, but let's say "generality" since it's late, and a prejudice. It's one thing to generalize that people wearing t-shirts care less about their appearance, and that those who tuck them in, defying fashion trends, care even less, but it's another level all together to start using such visual identification as social stigma, identifying all those who dress that way as misogynist assholes. It's the level of disconnect from reality, and the steps away from basic assumptions that bother me. I don't like to see such prejudice being perpetuated, because it's wrong. I really don't like to see people accepting of such prejudice, because it's revealing of a complete misunderstanding of why prejudice is such a problem.

Oct 19, 2013#158

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
I don't know what term to use, but let's say "generality" since it's late, and a prejudice.

"Template matching?"

--Patrick

Oct 19, 2013#159

Necronic

Reverent-one said:
So in other words, fashion isn't subjective, whatever you say goes? I don't even wear/own a fedora and think your hated of them is extreme. It's not really insane for someone to like the look of something just because you don't. It's not something " everyone says is very unfashionable". For example, the main character on White Collar on USA, a smooth, stylish conman type, has a trademark fedora. And that's without referencing older, even bigger names that popularized them *cough*Indiana Jones*cough*..

When you turn into Indiana Jones or the guy from white collar or Johnny Depp you can wear Dick Trousers (those are trousers made of dicks) and they would look fashionable. Please re-watch the sexual harrasment tape, same principle applies. I'm not saying fashion is fair in the slightest. What I'm saying is that fashion is determined by other people. It is a matter of dressing some way to get people to make judgements on you. The ENTIRE POINT OF FASHION is for people to judge you without knowing you.

Which is why the whole idea of the fedora bothers me. Its not for comfort or function. Its purely form. So is it form for other people? Doubtful, seeing as there is such rampant mockery of it. Then the only purpose it has is to fulfill a delusional fantasy of form that the wearer has. Which is the entire point of Gas's video. The fedora infects you with a feeling of fashion in spite of reality. Same thing with the comb-over or the velour shirt. This is a disease. Social embarrassment is the cure.

(this is a philosophical argument of almost zero ramification beyond the restoring the ability of nearby fedora wearers to find comfort in a woman's arms, so take it for what its worth. Which is pretty much nothing.)

Oct 19, 2013#160

Reverent-one

Necronic said:
When you turn into Indiana Jones or the guy from white collar or Johnny Depp you can wear Dick Trousers (those are trousers made of dicks) and they would look fashionable. Please re-watch the sexual harrasment tape, same principle applies. I'm not saying fashion is fair in the slightest. What I'm saying is that fashion is determined by other people. It is a matter of dressing some way to get people to make judgements on you. The ENTIRE POINT OF FASHION is for people to judge you without knowing you.

Which is why the whole idea of the fedora bothers me. Its not for comfort or function. Its purely form. So is it form for other people? Doubtful, seeing as there is such rampant mockery of it. Then the only purpose it has is to fulfill a delusional fantasy of form that the wearer has. Which is the entire point of Gas's video. The fedora infects you with a feeling of fashion in spite of reality. Same thing with the comb-over or the velour shirt. This is a disease. Social embarrassment is the cure.

Except that the "rampant mockery" you mention is merely a meme shared by some people on the internet. There's not nearly the universal hatred of them you suggest in the real world. So yes, a fedora is form for other people. Not for you, but you're right about one thing, fashion isn't fair. Something may be fashionable to others even if you don't like it, so you'll have to learn to deal with that.

Oct 19, 2013#161

Necronic

I'm totally cool with stuff being fashionable to others. That's the entire point of fashion, as I said. My point is that the fedora looks ridiculous to most "others" most of the time. It's this generations version of the trenchcoat. It's a pretty shameless affectation. Sure, if you wear it with a three piece suit it can be pretty fucking slick. I am not talking about this:

That looks pretty decent. (not entirely sure I like the tie clip but v0v.) Granted I think he would look much better without it, but it's a quirky accessory and its a reasonable choice.

Now, compare that to this:

Its simply wrong. Its an affectation of the first picture, without going through any of the additional effort needed above (like wearing a full suit). At best the fedora is a quirky accessory only to be worn alongside some pretty serious fashion (suit etc.) At worst its an attempt to bypass all that and "go beastmode" without putting an ounce of effort in.

Its a shameless affectation.

And fwiw, I will keep arguing this indefinitely.

Oct 19, 2013#162

figmentPez

That's not a fedora in the second pic, it's a trilby. In any case, it's a pretty ridiculous fashion choice, but it's still prejudiced to judge someones ethics or socio-political views by it. Considering it to be aesthetically displeasing is a very different proposition than considering it to be proof that someone is a morally bad person.

Oct 19, 2013#163

GasBandit

Just a point of contention - I don't think creepy is necessarily a label pertaining to morality - it's more about social acumen (or lack thereof). In the same vein as "awkward." Not a moral judgement, but a social one.

Oct 19, 2013#164

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
That's not a fedora in the second pic, it's a trilby. In any case, it's a pretty ridiculous fashion choice, but it's still prejudiced to judge someones ethics or socio-political views by it. Considering it to be aesthetically displeasing is a very different proposition than considering it to be proof that someone is a morally bad person.

I don't think most people look at someone that dresses like a tool and think they're a morally bad person. They just think they dress like a tool.

That said, wear whatever the fuck you want. Own it. Just don't fly off the handle about, because that looks much, much worse than a fedora.

Oct 19, 2013#165

figmentPez

Ravenpoe said:
That said, wear whatever the fuck you want. Own it. Just don't fly off the handle about, because that looks much, much worse than a fedora.

Sorry, I find outrage to be the correct response to prejudice. You want to tell me that I look unfashionable? Fine, I'll take any insult you want to throw at me about that. You want to start judging people's ethics and morality based on appearances? I'll call you out as a prejudiced asshole, and also point out any hypocrisy I can spot as well.

Oct 19, 2013#166

Tress

Oh for fuck's sake.

Oct 19, 2013#167

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe said:
don't think most people [. . .] think they're a morally bad person.

figmentPez said:
You want to start judging people's ethics and morality based on appearances?

Oct 19, 2013#168

Bowielee

Sorry, Pez, I'm usually one to let you vent your frustrations and all, but you're way overreacting and reading into things that aren't there.

Oct 19, 2013#169

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
Sorry, Pez, [...] you're way overreacting and reading into things that aren't there.

...in this case.

I'm not saying he doesn't have something, I'm just saying that correlation does not equal causation. A person sees a pattern, and he is 100% seeing that pattern. The pattern is there, he perceives it and logs it. He is only failing by then trying to stretch "some" big enough to cover "all." At best, I would say that xxxxx "increases the likelihood that subject N is a member of group M" rather than saying that xxxxx "is a badge signifying that subject N must be a member of group M." I'm sure there are other signs.

To go all set theory (layman-style), both pilots and security guards belong to the sets "People who wear uniforms" and "People who wear hats" and "People who wear ties." The fallacy happens when you take these limited characteristics and then try to draw the conclusion that "People who wear uniforms and hats and ties must ALL be pilots." In a real disaster in mid-air, having a uniform and hat should not automatically grant you a shot at the pilot's chair, but it should at least prompt the question, "Excuse me, are you a pilot?"

--Patrick

Oct 19, 2013#170

Ravenpoe

PatrThom said:
...in this case.

I'm not saying he doesn't have something, I'm just saying that correlation does not equal causation. A person sees a pattern, and he is 100% seeing that pattern. The pattern is there, he perceives it and logs it. He is only failing by then trying to stretch "some" big enough to cover "all." At best, I would say that xxxxx "increases the likelihood that subject N is a member of group M" rather than saying that xxxxx "is a badge signifying that subject N must be a member of group M." I'm sure there are other signs.

To go all set theory (layman-style), both pilots and security guards belong to the sets "People who wear uniforms" and "People who wear hats" and "People who wear ties." The fallacy happens when you take these limited characteristics and then try to draw the conclusion that "People who wear uniforms and hats and ties must ALL be pilots." In a real disaster in mid-air, having a uniform and hat should not automatically grant you a shot at the pilot's chair, but it should at least prompt the question, "Excuse me, are you a pilot?"

--Patrick

So then, Pez's overreaction could be a result of his past experience in encountering people who judge morality based on fedoras. He's then irrationally applying that to all people who hold negative opinions on them. If you don't like fedoras, you must be the kind of person to make moral judgments based on them.

That's just prejudiced.

Oct 19, 2013#171

Krisken

Shit just got real.

Oct 19, 2013#172

figmentPez

Ravenpoe said:

If you assume I was talking about you doing that, then yes. I worded my argument poorly. If someone were to... etc. Then I would call them out.[DOUBLEPOST=1382236124,1382236089][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ravenpoe said:
So then, Pez's overreaction could be a result of his past experience in encountering people who judge morality based on fedoras. He's then irrationally applying that to all people who hold negative opinions on them. If you don't like fedoras, you must be the kind of person to make moral judgments based on them.

That's just prejudiced.

That would be prejudiced if it weren't a strawman representation of my position.

Oct 20, 2013#173

AshburnerX

This is why I wear newsboys. No one thinks I'm a douche bag... they just think I'm poor and Irish.

Oct 20, 2013#174

Bowielee

AshburnerX said:
This is why I wear newsboys. No one thinks I'm a douche bag... they just think I'm poor and Irish.

I've noticed that this is the current go to hat for chubby guys. (I'm NOT calling Ashburner chubby, BTW)

Oct 20, 2013#175

DarkAudit

Flat cap/newsboy is my go to hat when I'm going sweatshirt and jeans.

Oct 20, 2013#176

Dei

I do see Pez's point, simply as a mom of an autistic kid, who looks normal but definitely doesn't act that way. But I feel like it has nothing to do with being a white male, and more to do with expectations of society towards "normal looking people."

Oct 20, 2013#177

PatrThom

Dei said:
as a mom of an autistic kid

Imagine how life is for him. He thinks he gets "the rules," but then people keep changing them over the rest of his life and he has to keep patching his internal code to compensate/cope.

--Patrick

Oct 20, 2013#178

AshburnerX

Bowielee said:
I've noticed that this is the current go to hat for chubby guys. (I'm NOT calling Ashburner chubby, BTW)

No, I am. But yeah... we do it because it looks good on us. Not sure WHY but it does. Maybe it's the wide brim?

Oct 20, 2013#179

GasBandit

I just want to go on the record and say I hate wearing a hat of any sort.

Oct 20, 2013#180

Bowielee

<------------ Only type of hat I ever wear.

Oct 20, 2013#181

figmentPez

Back on the subject of creepy comments. iKearstin had some interesting comments. From her Tumblr (which is very NSFW), some select quotes:

First of all, a nice chunk of these aren’t creepy at all. A few I think were made up, and the others, while could be creepy depending on the person be considered such, I am on the side that reactions. articles, and this type of ‘movement’ is unproductive. This does NOT teach or tell the ‘perpetrator’ he/she’s done something wrong. This is public crowd shaming, and it doesn’t help anybody. It’s also pretty annoying that things like this are almost always women orientated. Women can be just as shitty to male costumers.

...

So, with this specific article. Aside the not even creepy ones, some are so dumb and cheesy that those were totally openings for you to either make him uncomfortable back or be a dick. Did you stop him in his sentence to tell him how inappropriate that was and how uncomfortable it made you feel? No? Did you instead, giggle awkwardly and went “ehhh okthxbai”?

....

Teach people, don’t shame... Tell them at that very moment what they did “wrong” and tell them what would have been better. Then go about your day.
Waiting a few days later to bitch about it online when you did nothing to help, prevent or stop it is not productive.

Now, if somebody lays a hand on you, glomps (yes, if you do this to strangers, this is considered ASSAULT), whatthefuckever; then yes. SERIOUS situation. IMMEDIATELY do something about it. As in, report to convention security or staff. Think convention staff does shit about things like that? You won’t know until you personally try yourself. You try and they still don’t? Grab a friend (because I certainly hope you are not going to conventions of mass attendance by yourself) and never be alone. Getting stalked? Call the police. There are (or should be) cops on site at conventions. I know they are for a fact in Chicago conventions.

...

But having someone say something as completely harmless like “I can’t believe I’m finally meeting you!” is so outrageously pompous for you to call creepy, you have now caused an awkward male to feel ashamed for expressing his appreciation and admiration to you as a costumer. Us costumers bring characters to life for a lot of people, and a lot of them are “fans” because they personally/deeply/emotionally connect with these characters to some degree. That’s the whole point of why we love them. Our fandom. Our guidance. Relating to a character when you’ve gone through a rough point in your life, because they helped you get through it. To tear down a man/woman who is just saying how awesome it is to meet you, I certainly hope you don’t have a goddamn likepage, because those are made for people like them. Separates your privacy from your hobby. Don’t want to be known? Don’t make a likepage. Based on this context in the article of that quote, he/she knew of you in some way prior to approaching you (talked to you online before? On your likepage? Twitter?), so, what preventative measures did [you] take then? You can’t pick and choose who’s ok to say what. Had it been a big beefy ripped man covered in oil that said that to you (or if you’re into women; a sexy Red Sonja or some shit), I’m sure blushing and giggles would have immediately followed that. You have to be fair. Especially if you purposefully put yourself out there.

I disagree with her on some points. Not everyone is, or even can be, prepared to have a witty comeback to every possible asshole comment. I'm a pretty glib speaker when I'm on stage talking about a subject I know well, but I fall to pieces trying to talk to an attractive woman. Other people just aren't good at snappy comebacks at all. It's a difficult skill to master. While I do think every effort should be made to avoid the "giggle and accept" reaction, as that can send the message that the bad behavior was acceptable, I don't think it's good advice to tell every woman to be aggressive in response, because that's not a reasonable expectation.

I really like that she differentiates, in a paragraph I didn't quote, between intentional assholes and those that don't know better. I also think she makes a good point about taking the opportunity to teach, and not resort to public shaming.

Oct 21, 2013#182

@Li3n

Dave said:
Some of the R rated outfits that are worn.

As someone who was once a kid (as alien as that is to you, oh ancient one) i got to ask: why does that matter? Because before puberty i didn't really care except that they looked silly and uncomfortable, while after puberty they could have been wearing burka's and i would have made due...[DOUBLEPOST=1382366326,1382366239][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
I just want to go on the record and say I hate wearing a hat of any sort.

It's like a prison for your head...

Oct 21, 2013#183

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
It's like a prison for your head...

Yeah, they never fit just right, you're expected to take em off indoors which just gives you something extra to carry around, and they mess up your hair so when you DO take it off you look dumb. No hat has ever made me look as good as my hair alone, and if it rains I have umbrellas at home, work, and in the car (more for the sake of the electronics I carry, really).

Oct 22, 2013#184

SpecialKO

I like to occasionally wear a newsboy with a vest because it makes me feel in touch with my 1940s Slavic ancestry.

No joke, my Eastern European grandpa was awesome and wore a newsboy like a boss.

Oct 22, 2013#185

sixpackshaker

Newsboy hats with a T-Shirt normally looks funny. They need the collard shirt and like @SpecialKO said, a vest helps too.

May 7, 2014#186

LittleKagsin

I'm really not sure where else to put this, since it's not really about consent, but I guess I wanted to bring up/mention stories of bullying.

http://iamthedavrezi.tumblr.com/post/84720306678/on-friday-i-went-to-school-in-my-grell-cosplay

I don't know what it is about this particular story that gets to me, but it does. It really really does. And I'm so angry. What in the hell are parents teaching their kids these days??

If you don't want to read it, a girl wore her Grell cosplay to school.

And then got assaulted. When another girl began tugging on her wig the cosplayer asked her to stop, and then the girl turned on the cosplayer. She punched her, ripped her wig off, knocked her to the ground.

In what world is this reaction okay?? And then there are screen shots of a Facebook conversation of people saying how happy they are that this girl got beat up. I just don't even...

I see cosplayers, especially young ones, get bullied often. A lot of us are older and can handle verbal abuse, but physical altercations and on some poor high school student?

I am so angry. So very angry. And I can feel myself becoming Mama Bear and UGH. I would hope that the one girls mother would talk to her daughter, but I know that that is unlikely, which is just so wrong.

This just...hits close to home for me because I was bullied in school. Not terribly, but with my depression and anxiety it was enough to mess me up for almost all of my school life.

May 7, 2014#187

PatrThom

Some people just refuse to allow anyone else to be different, and think that such behavior is justified.

--Patrick

May 7, 2014#188

Bones

LittleKagsin said:
kags awesome post

PatrThom said:
Some people just refuse to allow anyone else to be different, and think that such behavior is justified.

--Patrick

the line that sums up what you want is, "They're not like you and me, which means they must be evil!" or my personal favorite, which is burned into me, "You are cast from the light monster, you are cast from our warm embrace, die monster, die, you don't belong in this world!"

May 7, 2014#189

Shakey

When I was in high school my friend decided to wear his masquerade live action costume to school. Similar thing happened. Someone didn't like it and laid into him.

May 7, 2014#190

GasBandit

I can't say I know much about this. The only time I ever went (or saw somebody go) to school in costume was on halloween day. And thus, nobody thought it odd. Of course, the school custodians hated me because I went as a freshly killed zombie every year, complete with oozing blood, and sometimes it got on the floor.

May 7, 2014#191

Bowielee

When one of my friend's eldest sons wore his Naruto headband to school I wanted to punch him.

Cause Naruto is just horrible.

May 7, 2014#192

Jay

I'm perplexed at the article. Was it for a special occasion or did she just decid to show up randomly like that for no reason related to theme/activity/date?

Also call me a old fart but trying to read more posts on tumbler is fucking frustrating.

May 7, 2014#193

Bowielee

I know I'm going to sound like a TOTAL dick for saying this, but honestly, going to school dressed in cosplay is totally asking for trouble.

I know I shouldn't feel that way, because I'm usually all about letting your freak flag fly and wearing your difference like a badge, but even I knew not to show up in certain places dressed in drag when I was younger and did such things.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you should really pick your battles.

May 7, 2014#194

Shakey

May 7, 2014#195

Bones

Bowielee said:
I know I'm going to sound like a TOTAL dick for saying this, but honestly, going to school dressed in cosplay is totally asking for trouble.

I know I shouldn't feel that way, because I'm usually all about letting your freak flag fly and wearing your difference like a badge, but even I knew not to show up in certain places dressed in drag when I was younger and did such things.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you should really pick your battles.

I want to rebuttal, I got nothing, I agree school is probably not a great venue, but hell we all did dumb shit when we were in high school. I feel like things to do to get beat up for this should be low on the list. Its like when I was in high school and the bullies beat me up in the parking lot for being a cripple and limping to my car after a particularly nasty fall.

May 7, 2014#196

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
I know I'm going to sound like a TOTAL dick for saying this, but honestly, going to school dressed in cosplay is totally asking for trouble.

I know I shouldn't feel that way, because I'm usually all about letting your freak flag fly and wearing your difference like a badge, but even I knew not to show up in certain places dressed in drag when I was younger and did such things.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you should really pick your battles.

And then, sometimes...

--Patrick

May 8, 2014#197

LittleKagsin

She wore the costume to school as a test run to see how it would handle at a convention. She even mentions she expected to be poked fun at, laughed at, but what I am not okay with is for her to be beat up.

I get it, wearing a costume to school is not the best venue, but that shouldn't matter on a scale of physical altercations. Wearing a costume to school should not = physical bullying.

May 8, 2014#198

Ravenpoe

LittleKagsin said:
She wore the costume to school as a test run to see how it would handle at a convention. She even mentions she expected to be poked fun at, laughed at, but what I am not okay with is for her to be beat up.

I get it, wearing a costume to school is not the best venue, but that shouldn't matter on a scale of physical altercations. Wearing a costume to school should not = physical bullying.

Nothing should equal physical bullying. But it's a problem that I don't know how to fix.

May 8, 2014#199

Shakey

Ravenpoe said:
Nothing should equal physical bullying. But it's a problem that I don't know how to fix.

I don't think there will ever be a fix, but not blaming the person who gets the shit kicked out of them is a start.

May 8, 2014#200

Hailey Knight

Is it just me, or does the description resemble an animal attack? Like having the colored wig was waving a red flag in a bull's face. Usually I see bullying escalate, not just sudden laying in.

May 8, 2014#201

Celt Z

I read the original post (oy, that background color...), but did she ever report the incident and the follow-up posts to the administration? While I agree cosplaying at school isn't a good idea unless it's Halloween or a theme day, but nothing should ever result in assault. Not saying everyone has to like each other, but she shouldn't be subjected to a hostile environment.

May 8, 2014#202

Espy

LittleKagsin said:
I get it, wearing a costume to school is not the best venue, but that shouldn't matter on a scale of physical altercations. Wearing a costume to school should not = physical bullying.

This. Everyone who thinks it was a bad idea in the first place, you are right. It was NOT a good idea for a variety of reasons (it's school being the primary one) however there is zero call for physical bullying. Thats just plain horrible.

May 8, 2014#203

GasBandit

I agree with Espy. It was probably a bad idea to wear cosplay to school, but that doesn't mean what happened is acceptable.

I'm wondering about the staff and faculty of this school though? Nobody saw the costume and said "you need to go home and change?" Nobody saw the attack, and disciplined the attacker? Is this school just kids running rampant, answerable only to the lord of the flies?

May 8, 2014#204

Bones

the girl responded with it happened after school, as far as the cosplay goes, if not for the wig its pretty tame by cosplay standards, so it makes me think the instructors let it go since she was probably well behaved. this is all speculation of course.

May 8, 2014#205

GasBandit

Bones said:
the girl responded with it happened after school, as far as the cosplay goes, if not for the wig its pretty tame by cosplay standards, so it makes me think the instructors let it go since she was probably well behaved. this is all speculation of course.

Man, I got sent home once because I had a shirt (that completely covered my upper body) that said "Big Johnson" on the front.

May 8, 2014#206

Espy

GasBandit said:
I agree with Espy.

FRAME IT BITCHES.

May 8, 2014#207

Bowielee

To be clear, I don't, under any circumstances, believe that this girl should have been abused in any way for this. Nor should anyone. What the bullies in this case did was reprehensible, as were the posted facebook responses.

Bullying is never acceptable.

May 8, 2014#208

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Man, I got sent home once because I had a shirt (that completely covered my upper body) that said "Big Johnson" on the front.

I remember those shirts.

--Patrick

May 8, 2014#209

Bowielee

To be fair, they were very thinly veiled sexual innuendo. They got banned at my school too.

May 8, 2014#210

Tress

The only times I yell at a student for clothing is when said clothing is either A) distracting, or B) inappropriate in some way (sex, drugs, violent threats, etc.). I would probably not have told this girl to change her clothes. I try to let them express themselves as much as (reasonably) possible.

This assault was grotesque and the people who did it should be severely punished.

May 8, 2014#211

Bowielee

I think there are a couple of distinctions that I need to make abundantly clear.

Questioning the wisdom of the actions of one person is not equal to condoning the actions of another against said person.

Questioning the same said actions of a victim does not in any way absolve the victimizer.

Yes, they should be punished, and punished severely. One person made have had a lapse in judgement. The other perpetrated a deplorable act.

May 8, 2014#212

Tress

Bowielee said:
I think there are a couple of distinctions that I need to make abundantly clear.

Questioning the wisdom of the actions of one person is not equal to condoning the actions of another against said person.

Questioning the same said actions of a victim does not in any way absolve the victimizer.

Yes, they should be punished, and punished severely. One person made have had a lapse in judgement. The other perpetrated a deplorable act.

I don't think anybody really thought you were defending the bullies in this story?

May 8, 2014#213

Shakey

The whole "They should know better" or "It's just asking for trouble" just bugs me. There's no reason anyone should be afraid or hesitant to display their passion. I know you don't condone what the bully did, but it adds to the fear or insecurity people may have about themselves and who they are.

May 8, 2014#214

Bowielee

Shakey said:
The whole "They should know better" or "It's just asking for trouble" just bugs me. There's no reason anyone should be afraid or hesitant to display their passion. I know you don't condone what the bully did, but it adds to the fear or insecurity people may have about themselves and who they are.

In a perfect world, I agree with you. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.

May 8, 2014#215

Jay

Schools should have a zero tolerance to this shit. Initiate a fight unprovoked? Expelled.

Watched this fight happen without intervening? A week suspension.

Caught mocking the situation on social media or elsewhere? 3 day suspension.

Bullying shouldn't be accepted in today's social norm.

Everyone is far too accepting of it and everyone makes the wheel of excuses. Simply put, a person shouldn't be physically attacked for ANY reason on school grounds. If someone sees this happen, they need to be implicated. Standing there and watching it happen is too convenient. And talking shit about it is douche as hell.

May 8, 2014#216

figmentPez

Jay said:
Schools should have a zero tolerance to this shit.

Sadly, they have the wrong type of zero tolerance policies. To the point that students who raise their arms to block punches are considered to have been fighting, and are suspended alongside their attackers.

May 8, 2014#217

Dei

I am basically opposed to zero tolerance anything, because people are too stupid to use it properly.

May 8, 2014#218

Espy

Dei said:
I am basically opposed to zero tolerance anything, because people are too stupid to use it properly.

This is a very good point.

May 8, 2014#219

Shakey

Dei said:
I am basically opposed to zero tolerance anything, because people are too stupid to use it properly.

So one could say... You have zero tolerance for zero tolerance policies. :csi:

May 8, 2014#220

Dei

Let me finish chewing my sandwich into the shape of a gun, then you are going to get it!

May 8, 2014#221

sixpackshaker

Just think, I could not wear my Sex Pistols T to school nowadays.

May 8, 2014#222

Bowielee

figmentPez said:
Sadly, they have the wrong type of zero tolerance policies. To the point that students who raise their arms to block punches are considered to have been fighting, and are suspended alongside their attackers.

When I was in high school, this kid in my class came up and sucker punched me and started wailing on me for no reason. I defended myself with minimal damage, but ended up getting suspended for 3 days.

May 8, 2014#223

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
When I was in high school, this kid in my class came up and sucker punched me and started wailing on me for no reason. I defended myself with minimal damage, but ended up getting suspended for 3 days.

Hrm. You're older than me (not by TOO much), but I got much less punishment for fighting in school, even when I was the obvious aggressor (or at least threw the proverbial first punch). Granted, once I got out of Jr. High there wasn't much fighting going on any more, but I never got suspended or even detention - they did call my parents however, each time.

Funnily enough, the most a school ever punished me was when, in Jr High again, a friend of mine got caught with a Porno VHS and blabbed that he got it from me. All the faculty involved seemed amused (compared to the stern seriousness they displayed when there was fighting) but I got a week of in-school-suspension.

May 8, 2014#224

Bowielee

Of course, I was really the only one punished. I loved going to school. For him it was 3 days off, for me it was 3 days I hated.

May 8, 2014#225

PatrThom

I've been in exactly 3 fights during my entire school career.
I started none of them, and was a willing participant in only one of them. I received no discipline for any of them.
However, I did get 3 days off school for hitting a teacher with a paper airplane. That was my only non-attendance-related disciplinary incident.

--Patrick

May 8, 2014#226

bhamv3

I was in exactly one fight in my high school career. There were a lot of guys who liked picking on the short chubby Asian guy. So one day I grabbed one of them, kneed him in the abdomen, and left him crying on the ground. Got one day of after school detention for it, and no one ever bothered me again.

I don't know why I'm sharing this story, it seems awfully irrelevant to the discussion.

May 8, 2014#227

Bones

haha we all had our moments, mine was in my junior year I cracked a guy right in the throat and collapsed his trachea by accident while he had me in a hanging choke hold against a wall.

May 9, 2014#228

Tress

This is what I hate about our bullying discussions. It always turns into some weird geek-therapy, then it turns into stories about the glory days when you beat up 14 armed men in the hallway after class.

May 9, 2014#229

Bowielee

We're on page seven. Be glad it lasted as long as it did.

May 9, 2014#230

PatrThom

Tress said:
the glory days when you beat up 14 armed men in the hallway after class.

Honestly, I relate my experience because I thought of it as atypical. To hear some people talk about their lives, if they didn't get their nose busted at least once a week, it was because they were back in the hospital recovering from surgery to remove the bullets.

--Patrick

May 9, 2014#231

mikerc

Tress said:
stories about the glory days when you beat up 14 armed men in the hallway after class.

Excuse me? I think you'll find I beat up 14 armed men and a dog. Don't you go selling me short Tress.

May 9, 2014#232

Officer_Charon

I had a post on just how much I don't like the argument about "she should have known better, she shouldn't have dressed like that," but there was no way that I could phrase it without comparing Bowie to some unsavory characters, and I like Bowie - he's a cool guy, and could never do that to him.

Suffice it to say that this is complete bullshit, and whether she ought to have kept her head down and below the radar is irrelevant: I have precisely zero time for bullies, for various reasons, and God help the ignorant fuck that I catch bullying ANYONE.

I can bully, too.... just ask Charlie.

May 9, 2014#233

Bones

Officer_Charon said:
I had a post on just how much I don't like the argument about "she should have known better, she shouldn't have dressed like that," but there was no way that I could phrase it without comparing Bowie to some unsavory characters, and I like Bowie - he's a cool guy, and could never do that to him.

Suffice it to say that this is complete bullshit, and whether she ought to have kept her head down and below the radar is irrelevant: I have precisely zero time for bullies, for various reasons, and God help the ignorant fuck that I catch bullying ANYONE.

I can bully, too.... just ask Charlie.

Well yeah...you are a cop, the definition of your job is to bully the bullys. ::grin::

May 9, 2014#234

Tinwhistler

Officer_Charon said:
I had a post on just how much I don't like the argument about "she should have known better, she shouldn't have dressed like that," but there was no way that I could phrase it without comparing Bowie to some unsavory characters, and I like Bowie - he's a cool guy, and could never do that to him.

It's hard to talk about common-sense expectations without getting the blame-the-victim vibe going, even if it's unintentional.

Strong-arm robbery is a crime. If you walk around the inner city in some large metropolitan areas with money hanging out of your pocket, you can expect that you'll get robbed because of it. I could do the same in my current hometown and feel perfectly safe.

Getting beat up on for being different was common in the school systems I grew up in. It's not right, and I'm not trying to lay any blame on the cosplayer in question. But perhaps it's not that surprising, either.

While it would be nice if everyone could go about their lives unmolested by the people around them, reality is a bit less fair. The kind of assholes who rob and beat people tend to care less about social niceties and rules than the majority of us, and it pays to be cautious when you're in an environment were you are likely to run across that type of person.

That said, I fully support laying the harshest appropriate punishments on the attackers.

May 9, 2014#235

PatrThom

Tinwhistler said:
I fully support laying the harshest appropriate punishments on the attackers.

Like...having them dress up as Grell and go to school for a day?

--Patrick

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