[Question] What is Rape Culture?

[Hailey Knight]

I think the article makes a good point about the grey areas that occur because of poor sex education. Adolescents don't learn about communicating during sexual situations in health class; instead they learn from movies that stuff is supposed to "just happen" and not until later do they realize it's okay to talk during sex or sexually charged situations--it doesn't kill the vibe or ruin the mood. If two people want to have sex, that can continue.

That said, I can identify strongly with GasBandit more than I'm going to get into and I am 100% behind what he says, that the choice to forcefully have sex with someone when they don't want it is a choice made by the individual doing it. Doesn't matter the rapist's gender, their relation to the victim, age differences, whether they're alone or have accomplices, what their status on a football team is--they're making a conscious choice to violate another person.

As for rape culture, there is an element of entitlement among many men. I think what causes the situations where a rape is hidden by a community is more the trouble with small, tight-knit communities and their seclusion. That said, there is a problem in media perception where the rapists are not seen as rapists. That word isn't used, and that affects people who see what's happening. I read a blog post by a teacher where her high school class was discussing one of those cases, and students were noting the ruined futures of the football players. The teacher had to spell it out for her class that the boys were being punished because they are rapists. It hadn't occurred to anyone else in the room that what had happened to the girl was rape, or that by committing that rape, the boys were rapists. THAT perception is a problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

 

[Dave]

Okay, here's my red text announcement. This is a serious topic - and very personal for some, including some of our users who are rape victims. To this end, trolling will not be allowed. I know we normally let people have at it, but let's leave this thread free. I'll leave up things as they stand now, but anything new will get deleted and a thread ban - not a site ban - will come into play. No rules are being broken, which is why no points or anything like that.

Let's play nice, people.

 

[PatrThom]

Let's play nice, people.

I, too, am pleasantly surprised that this has made it to the 3rd page without a lock.

--Patrick

 

[Espy]

That said, I can identify strongly with GasBandit more than I'm going to get into and I am 100% behind what he says, that the choice to forcefully have sex with someone when they don't want it is a choice made by the individual doing it. Doesn't matter the rapist's gender, their relation to the victim, age differences, whether they're alone or have accomplices, what their status on a football team is--they're making a conscious choice to violate another person.

To be clear, in no way does acknowledging the affects of something patriarchal social ideas or "rape culture" negate personal responsibility. I think a lot of people, not you @Zero Esc, think that when anyone uses those terms they are saying people aren't responsible for their actions and that couldn't be further from the truth, at least for most people I know. It's more about what you said in the beginning of your post, it's about society's failings to grow and the terrible state of our sex ed in schools and at home. To everyone reading this please, please don't ever think that having this kind of discussion negates personal responsibility.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Yeah, I don't think I've ever implied that Rape Culture means people aren't responsible for their actions or should be prosecuted / sentenced any less. In fact, sexual assault up to rape is one of the very few things I think the justice system is too lenient on.

 

[Espy]

Honestly, while it isn't totally about this topic, it weighs heavily in "Invisible War", a documentary on Netflix about the armed forces and sexual assault (on both men and women). It's a hard but good watch for those interested.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I think there's SOME truth to the idea of rape culture. Not to the point that every guy in society thinks it's okay, but there are certainly some that do. I think the objectification of women in media plays a heavy role in this, for example. If they're viewed and treated as objects, then that's all that sexual offenders will view them as. They see them as a thing, not a person who would have severe psychological issues as a result of the abuse. Hell, there are women who can't even play Xbox Live because of the kind of treatment they receive from other players. Those players are not being well-educated in how to treat other people, most especially women, because of the media that they're fed on a daily basis.

And as Espy said, a lot of this has to do with the lack of a solid sex education in schools. It's not just about teaching them where to stick what where, but of the consequences and teaching an understanding that sex should be mutually consensual.

As far as a patriarchal society, I...actually partly believe there is. Partly. Our culture is generally dominated by white males. Is it prevalent like that everywhere? No, of course not. But in general, I think it's true. You look at the big kerfuffle that occurred last year involving the vote in Texas and abortion clinics. There was a woman senator who actually said something along the lines of "Mr. Speaker, why is it that a woman is not heard in these arguments?" I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the point stands that the majority of the people voting on the issue were men.

That's about all I can think of to say about the subject. I'm not very good with discussions/arguments because I never know what to really say about it or especially how to reply to someone's response.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Not to the point that every guy in society thinks it's okay,

I don't think any definition of rape culture I've ever read has asserted this is true.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I don't think any definition of rape culture I've ever read has asserted this is true.

No, but some treat it as if it's the vast majority in society.

 

[Espy]

No, but some treat it as if it's the vast majority in society.

You aren't the first person here to say thats so clearly that view is out there. I guess I would offer this: like with any discussion of political/religious/etc things I would urge folks to try and avoid painting the majority with the brush created by the radical fringe. It's upsetting to hear that radical fringe, I understand, but when we go right to that we end up shutting down discussion with people who have much more moderated and nuanced views.

 

[WasabiPoptart]

If it isn't the vast majority, then why is it so prevalent? Why is it that if a woman is raped she is guilty until proven innocent? Her assailants are excused from real responsibility because they are nice, upstanding citizens according to their peers and family? I'm sorry, Nick, but you aren't female. You don't see things from my point of view even though you are a more progressive thinking man who would never want this for anyone.
I was raped when I was 15. By my boyfriend. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't on drugs. I tried to fight back, but I was too hysterical to get it together. Did I tell anyone? No. Because all I ever heard in discussions between family and friends was that it was my fault. I must have wanted it. I must have secretly enjoyed it. I probably said no, but meant yes. It was the way I dressed (because jeans and t-shirt is totally provocative). I should have fought harder. I'm not going into details of what actually happened, but needless to say I was ashamed that I allowed this to happen to me. It was my fault according to everything I had ever been told.
Look around at what we find acceptable in the media and online. Go to some humor sites. Hell, if this was last year I'd tell you just go on Facebook and look at a few pages that tell young men how to handle their women. One of the most popular teen book series (and later a movie series) had a sex scene where the teenage girl is unconscious during the act. Girls thought of this as romantic! People defend it as not being rape! It is not OK! It is not OK for women to be seen as conquests at any cost. To be seen as a receptacle who should comply with the superior male. Just because you and people you associate with would never think this way and believe there is no evidence of this being a major part of every day society doesn't mean the messages aren't out there for people of both sexes, young and older, to see or hear and integrate into their way of thinking. Believe me, it is there. Maybe you choose to be blind to it because it doesn't affect you. Maybe you don't give it much thought because it's guys being idiots. But it is there.

 

[Dei]

Things that also appall me: The amount of songs that glorify rape that I hear on the radio. It had died down some, but maybe that is just because I listen to the radio less and less.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Things that also appall me: The amount of songs that glorify rape that I hear on the radio. It had died down some, but maybe that is just because I listen to the radio less and less.

The number one hit song of the year 2013 was a... I can't even call it a metphor, it's about a guy raping a girl. And one of the grossest music videos I've ever seen. Robin Thicke has made millions of dollars making rape look glossy and cool.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

I have NEVER in my life EVER assumed a woman was guilty until proven innocent. When those asshole high school football players raped that girl, I wasn't like some people who thought "Oh, those poor boys." No, I wanted justice or even revenge against them. I'm a huge proponent for equality for women's rights and equality in general. The fact that I'm getting upset just saying these things is why I don't enjoy getting involved in these debates: because the first part of your post feels incredibly attacking and judgemental upon me. Which is ironic, I know, because that's essentially how rape culture works, as well. But personally, I can't fathom how anyone could take the situation like that girl that was raped by the high schoolers and then FURTHER harass her. My point is, I give it plenty of thought. My blood boils any time I hear of anyone being mistreated or being treated as an unequel for no reason. I certainly don't appreciate the assumptive tone you've put upon me when I've been a huge supporter of equality.

And I think the reason it's so prevalent is because of the media and all the examples you mentioned. There's also the general internet culture, who think it's okay to say a plethora of horrible things about women, race, and the LGBT community. Twilight is a huge example of rape culture, for example, as you pointed out. No one can argue that popular media is - and has been for a long time - been primarily aimed a white, straight, male audience. If it's all over the popular media - even in commercials - then people start to buy into the idea that women are not equal.

I am, however, sorry that you were the victim of rape. Sadly, I know of several female friends who have been on receiving end of sexual abuse and have heard far too many other stories of women falling into the category of "victim blamed."

 

[figmentPez]

If it isn't the vast majority, then why is it so prevalent?

Because the silent majority doesn't want to deal with it. Drunk driving and alcoholism are also prevalent, and all the rationalized excuses that permit both of those. Yet there isn't a majority of people who approve of either, there's just a very large number of people who don't want to, or don't know how to, deal with them, or have varying degrees of problematic viewpoints that aren't black and white wrong. There are lots of anti-drunk driving campaigns, very few people would say that people should be allowed to drive drunk, and probably fewer still who would say that it's socially acceptable to be an alcoholic. However, people want to drink, and don't want to deal with the difficult problems of admitting that there comes a point where people are drinking too much. Even after decades of public awareness campaigns, it's still common for people to drive when they're impaired.

There are a lot of similarities between the public perception of an alcoholic and a rapist. People have in their mind that an alcoholic is someone who has ceased to function in life. Alcoholics are people living on the street, who beat their wives, or show up drunk to work. Alcoholics like <redacted>, who never let it affect his work, who had enough charm and influence to avoid any drunk driving charges (and enough luck to never have anything serious happen), don't get slapped with the label publicly. His liver never failed, so his doctors didn't even ask about his drinking habits. His GP shocked when <redacted>'s family asked them to approach him about his drinking. No one wants to take a successful, caring, generous, intelligent, etc. person and say that person is an alcoholic.

The issue of rape is in a worse state than our reaction to alcohol abuse. In general, there is a lot more rationalization of predatory sexual behavior and sexual abuse/assault, than there is rationalization of alcohol abuse, but I hope you can see the parallels. There are a lot of mixed messages in our society about what is acceptable use of alcohol. We don't like to talk about where the line is between someone who gets drunk regularly, and someone who is an alcoholic. Well, sure, they go out and get shitfaced every Friday and Saturday, but they never let it get in the way of their work, and they're really nice when they're drunk; there's no way they're an alcoholic, even if they avoid any event where they can't be drinking... Similarly, as a society, we don't like to talk about consent, and at what point being forward becomes sexual assault.

 

[Hailey Knight]

If it isn't the vast majority, then why is it so prevalent? Why is it that if a woman is raped she is guilty until proven innocent? Her assailants are excused from real responsibility because they are nice, upstanding citizens according to their peers and family?

It's prevalent because while most people agree that the word rape is bad, there are a number of guys willing to do things that are rape, so long as it isn't called rape. Ask them if they'd rape a woman, they'll say no. But what they're hearing is, would you jump out of the bushes in a ski mask and force yourself on a stranger. What isn't being asked is, would you drug another person's drink? Would you hold your wife/girlfriend/friend in bed even when she says no? There are dozens of scenarios where those same guys would say yes, because they don't think of those situations as rape. They don't know to respect other human beings. This is why we get lawmakers talking about "legitimate rape" bullshit.

I'm sorry, Nick, but you aren't female. You don't see things from my point of view even though you are a more progressive thinking man who would never want this for anyone.

A thing most men don't realize and that I didn't even come to understand until a couple years ago, but it's scary going outside as a woman. You're taught to be wary, you're taught to be on-guard, you're taught not to trust anyone, you're taught to make sure you won't be the target. The stress alone is abominable, let alone actually having to deal with those who try making you a target. And if something happens to you? You slipped up. You made a mistake. You wore the wrong outfit. You walked the wrong way. You said the wrong thing. All the fingers will be pointing at you for the bad thing you didn't prevent.

I honestly don't think I could handle it. The shit my wife tells me about when she comes home some days is disgusting, and I know the only reason I don't see it when I'm out with her is because I have a dick, so suddenly she's respected for being mine. Doesn't matter that I'm a geek, that I'm scrawny, that I've thrown one punch in my life--I'm a guy and that causes a world of different treatment.

No matter how empathetic one of us is, we will not see the world as it is for women because our presence immediately alters it.

 

[WasabiPoptart]

I have NEVER in my life EVER assumed a woman was guilty until proven innocent. When those asshole high school football players raped that girl, I wasn't like some people who thought "Oh, those poor boys." No, I wanted justice or even revenge against them. I'm a huge proponent for equality for women's rights and equality in general. The fact that I'm getting upset just saying these things is why I don't enjoy getting involved in these debates: because the first part of your post feels incredibly attacking and judgemental upon me. Which is ironic, I know, because that's essentially how rape culture works, as well. But personally, I can't fathom how anyone could take the situation like that girl that was raped by the high schoolers and then FURTHER harass her. My point is, I give it plenty of thought. My blood boils any time I hear of anyone being mistreated or being treated as an unequel for no reason. I certainly don't appreciate the assumptive tone you've put upon me when I've been a huge supporter of equality.

I didn't mean for my post to come across as a personal attack or being judgemental of you. However, I admit I was hoping to provoke you to consider things from a wider perspective. This is not about Nick's beliefs, values, and morals. It is about society and what is acceptable in our culture. The large picture. If this was the world according to Nick I am sure it would be a much nicer place where justice is carried out swiftly and wrongs are righted. However, our society as a whole is not like that. While you personally would not assume a woman is guilty until proven innocent, there are plenty of people (both make and female) in our world who would say she's lying, question her morals, and focus on her being in the wrong. Again, YOU wouldn't...but what we are told in the media including entertainment, by our leaders, the justice system, and in our communities is that the assailant is not responsible for his actions. It's easier to blame the victim. It's even easier to be a bystander. That all plays a large part in how rape culture is able to continue. It's not you, Nick. It's many other people in the world.[DOUBLEPOST=1391980252,1391979821][/DOUBLEPOST]

Things that also appall me: The amount of songs that glorify rape that I hear on the radio. It had died down some, but maybe that is just because I listen to the radio less and less.

I hardly bother with the radio. My kids and I listen to Pandora a lot. At least I can ban songs that I don't think are appropriate and they still get to listen to some current music, plus any other genre we're in the mood for.

 

[figmentPez]

A thing most men don't realize and that I didn't even come to understand until a couple years ago, but it's scary going outside as a woman. You're taught to be wary, you're taught to be on-guard, you're taught not to trust anyone, you're taught to make sure you won't be the target. The stress alone is abominable, let alone actually having to deal with those who try making you a target. And if something happens to you? You slipped up. You made a mistake. You wore the wrong outfit. You walked the wrong way. You said the wrong thing. All the fingers will be pointing at you for the bad thing you didn't prevent.

I hope I can state this in a way that reflects that it is an honest question of mine, but here goes: Statistically a man is more likely to be a victim of violent crime than a woman is to be a victim of violent crime (including in both that sexual assault is a violent crime). So, why are women, in general, taught to walk around in fear, while men, in general, told to be confident? I know that the simple answer is that we treat the genders differently, but I'm kind of asking about what should be, not what is. Should men walk around as afraid of being robbed at gunpoint, or outright shot, as women are of being sexually assaulted? Is the difference that women are viewed as at fault somehow, and lack that sympathy? If so, what does that say about the 1.2 million men raped in 2010, who aren't even recognized as rape victims by any statistics? 80% of those men knew their attacker, yet no one teaches men to be afraid of the women in their lives, the way women are increasingly being taught to be wary of the men they know. Should we be teaching men to be as cautious around people they know as women are of their social circles? Should men be taking self-defense classes, and walking around with cans of mace on their keychains? Should men avoid being alone with a women, even a friend, out of fear that she might turn out to be a rapist? If the answer to these is that men shouldn't fear because they are bigger and stronger, then isn't that victim blaming for the men who were raped?

I will not argue that women shouldn't be afraid or that they should. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I know women who are, and I know those who are not. (Well, I know women who are less afraid of walking down the street at night than I am, and I'm not particularly afraid of being a victim. I don't know anyone who is completely without fear of something bad happening.) I'm honestly asking if men should be taught to be cautious and afraid as well.

 

[WasabiPoptart]

What it should be is that people are taught not to commit violent crimes. Then no one would have to worry about being afraid and cautious.

 

[figmentPez]

What it should be is that people are taught not to commit violent crimes. Then no one would have to worry about being afraid and cautious.

That would be nice, but people have been taught that theft and murder are wrong for a very long time, and yet both of those still occur on a regular basis. I think I've read that violent crime rates have been on an overall downward trend, but it does not seem to me that there will be an end to crime any time soon. What do we do in the meanwhile?

 

[Espy]

What it should be is that people are taught not to commit violent crimes. Then no one would have to worry about being afraid and cautious.

The Invisible War really details the prevention stuff much of military does (and it was what my wife had experienced as well) and guess what? It's all for women and it's all about how they can avoid all the people around them who are willing to rape them if given the chance. Nary a word about men just NOT raping women. I'm not saying don't be cautious or anything, no one is saying that (because inevitably someone will say it's good advice and it IS), but for pets sake how about we focus on the population causing the problem here, just a little bit?

I think THAT kind of thinking is rape culture. It says, "If a woman is walking down that street by herself well, what did she think was going to happen?". It says, "Oh well, she shouldn't have been out drinking, what did she think would happen?" or the old standby for good old boys all over, "did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it!" How about she just wanted to walk down the street without being assaulted? Or have a drink without being assaulted? Or wear her freaking clothes without being assaulted?

I mean, come on.

And as for the men, when you have commanders and buddies who do everything they can to protect each other whenever a sexual assault occurs, what other message are you sending other than "this is ok"? It's insane.

 

[figmentPez]

The Invisible War really details the prevention stuff much of military does (and it was what my wife had experienced as well) and guess what? It's all for women and it's all about how they can avoid all the people around them who are willing to rape them if given the chance. Nary a word about men just NOT raping women. I'm not saying don't be cautious or anything, no one is saying that (because inevitably someone will say it's good advice and it IS), but for pets sake how about we focus on the population causing the problem here, just a little bit?

I think THAT kind of thinking is rape culture. It says, "If a woman is walking down that street by herself well, what did she think was going to happen?". It says, "Oh well, she shouldn't have been out drinking, what did she think would happen?" or the old standby for good old boys all over, "did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it!" How about she just wanted to walk down the street without being assaulted? Or have a drink without being assaulted? Or wear her freaking clothes without being assaulted?

I mean, come on.

And as for the men, when you have commanders and buddies who do everything they can to protect each other whenever a sexual assault occurs, what other message are you sending other than "this is ok"? It's insane.

I'm all for teaching to not rape, as long as it's understood that it's a lot more complicated than:

Just like telling people "don't be an alcoholic" doesn't really do much unless you teach people that being dependent on alcohol is a far broader category than "that homeless guy who is drinking Sterno to get drunk". Confronting drunk driving is more than just saying "don't drive drunk" because many people would respond that they'd never get behind a wheel if they were drunk, they know their limits, and they're just a little tipsy. Just as public awareness of alcohol issues has to teach about responsible drinking, and that being impaired happens well before being falling down drunk, so does combating sexual assault need to teach about consent, and that rape is far more than just jumping out of bushes. (It also needs to be about more than just "men need to stop raping" because both genders commit sexual assault, and both genders help in covering it up.)

The reason we need to teach consent is that we're not going to stop the rapist who jumps out of the bushes to attack a woman he doesn't know. He knows what he's doing is wrong, and he's going to do it anyway because he is a criminal, and has issues that no public awareness campaign can fix. The alcoholic that has had his license revoked and still gets falling down drunk and then drives home knows that what he's doing is wrong, he's been in court and told that it's wrong. Drunk driving campaigns aren't about stopping that guy. The hope for broad change comes from reaching those who are in what they think is a grey area, and reaching them is going to take teaching about what responsible sexuality is. If you want to teach people "don't cross the line", you have first teach them where the line is.

 

[Espy]

I'm all for teaching to not rape

Thats really all you needed to write.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Can we, uh. Not post image macros about kids from children's cartoons getting raped?

 

[WasabiPoptart]

Espy, I have seen the Navy's Sexual Assault Prevention material. It is all aimed at women and what they should do to prevent assault. It does not address that rape is wrong. For anyone. And when I say anyone, I mean it also does not address men who are sexually assaulted in the military. That's swept under the carpet. I've never seen rape prevention aimed at the male victim. It's always assumed to be a male who rapes a female. I've read accounts where a male was raped by a female and the victim's stories were not taken seriously because - "dude, how does a woman rape a man? C'mon bro. You know you wanted her to do it. Men can't get an erection without being attracted to the other person, you know." To me it is another way that our culture does not want to recognize uncomfortable issues that should be and need to be dealt with.

 

[figmentPez]

Thats really all you needed to write.

I disagree, because if we're having to discuss why rape gets swept under the rug so often, if the majority of people don't think rape is okay, then it's also the case that we don't really understand why it's necessary to teach more than just "don't rape".

 

[WasabiPoptart]

I disagree, because if we're having to discuss why rape gets swept under the rug so often, if the majority of people don't think rape is okay, then it's also the case that we don't really understand why it's necessary to teach more than just "don't rape".

I think a related problem is gender inequality. Women are not as valued as men. That is a much bigger cultural and societal issue. In my point of view it all boils down to the perception of powerful v. powerless.

 

[PatrThom]

I think a related problem is gender inequality.

I think a related problem is that people will try harder to blame someone/thing else for their actions than they will to avoid doing that action in the first place.
"I can't help myself, it's because of my (<gender>/<race>/<religion>) that I act this way!"

These are the same people who throw your expensive custom controller at the screen when they're over to game at your place because "...the pad is all slippery!"

--Patrick

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I think a related problem is that people will try harder to blame someone/thing else for their actions than they will to avoid doing that action in the first place.
"I can't help myself, it's because of my (<gender>/<race>/<religion>) that I act this way!"

These are the same people who throw your expensive custom controller at the screen when they're over to game at your place because "...the pad is all slippery!"

--Patrick

Go on. How does this relate to rape again?

 

[Espy]

I disagree, because if we're having to discuss why rape gets swept under the rug so often, if the majority of people don't think rape is okay, then it's also the case that we don't really understand why it's necessary to teach more than just "don't rape".

I guess I had assumed you had read enough of my views in this thread by now to assume that no one was advocating for a 3 second class called, "thanks for being here, don't rape, goodnight".

 

[figmentPez]

I guess I had assumed you had read enough of my views in this thread by now to assume that no one was advocating for a 3 second class called, "thanks for being here, don't rape, goodnight".

True, I wouldn't have assumed that you would settle for something so ineffective, but there's also people reading this thread besides you and I, or even the other people posting.

 

[PatrThom]

Go on. How does this relate to rape again?

For clarification, then.
One can convince one's self that even though <thing*> is bad, THIS time, it will be done because <they deserve it>/<I deserve it>/<nobody will know>/<it will be so much fun!>/<I can totally handle it>/<whatever>.
Then, once called out about it, a monumental effort will be made to offload the blame onto something/someone else rather than to accept that the decision to go ahead was made internally, rather than being dictated by external factors.

--Patrick
*Could be anything. Rape, murder, embezzlement, adultery, you name it.

 

[WasabiPoptart]

For clarification, then.
One can convince one's self that even though <thing*> is bad, THIS time, it will be done because <they deserve it>/<I deserve it>/<nobody will know>/<it will be so much fun!>/<I can totally handle it>/<whatever>.
Then, once called out about it, a monumental effort will be made to offload the blame onto something/someone else rather than to accept that the decision to go ahead was made internally, rather than being dictated by external factors.

--Patrick
*Could be anything. Rape, murder, embezzlement, adultery, you name it.

But isn't that what is already happening?

Rape is bad. Rather than tackling the issue from the stance that no one should commit rape the blame is place on the victim. She was wearing the wrong clothes, she had too much to drink, she was being a tease...all external factors which excuse the rapist's actions.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I hope I can state this in a way that reflects that it is an honest question of mine, but here goes: Statistically a man is more likely to be a victim of violent crime than a woman is to be a victim of violent crime (including in both that sexual assault is a violent crime). So, why are women, in general, taught to walk around in fear, while men, in general, told to be confident? I know that the simple answer is that we treat the genders differently, but I'm kind of asking about what should be, not what is. Should men walk around as afraid of being robbed at gunpoint, or outright shot, as women are of being sexually assaulted? Is the difference that women are viewed as at fault somehow, and lack that sympathy? If so, what does that say about the 1.2 million men raped in 2010, who aren't even recognized as rape victims by any statistics? 80% of those men knew their attacker, yet no one teaches men to be afraid of the women in their lives, the way women are increasingly being taught to be wary of the men they know. Should we be teaching men to be as cautious around people they know as women are of their social circles? Should men be taking self-defense classes, and walking around with cans of mace on their keychains? Should men avoid being alone with a women, even a friend, out of fear that she might turn out to be a rapist? If the answer to these is that men shouldn't fear because they are bigger and stronger, then isn't that victim blaming for the men who were raped?

I will not argue that women shouldn't be afraid or that they should. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I know women who are, and I know those who are not. (Well, I know women who are less afraid of walking down the street at night than I am, and I'm not particularly afraid of being a victim. I don't know anyone who is completely without fear of something bad happening.) I'm honestly asking if men should be taught to be cautious and afraid as well.

What the hell are you talking about? I was saying that's what happens today and that's the reaction received because of the sexually hostile environment that exists out in the world. That is NOT how it should be. It's not a matter of "Well, men should get to be afraid to and not be judged for it."

Half your posts keep coming down to "But what about the men?" No one said in this thread said men aren't victims of violent sex crimes, but you yourself posted statistics of how much more heavily skewed the ratio is against women. We're also talking about a cultural view that seems prevalent that women are things, not people. And that's a problem that may tie in with the high rate of sexual violence against women. But yeah, it also happens to men. No one said otherwise. Since no one denied that, it comes up as bizarre that you keep waving that banner.

I had typed up something involving two bad experiences of mine and the unwanted sexual attention of two larger, stronger men, but I don't want what I say about my life coming back to bite me in the ass when I piss off the wrong person here on some future date, in this thread or another, so I'm not going there. Props to Wasabi; I don't have her guts.

 

[Espy]

Props to Wasabi; I don't have her guts.

I think thats most of us.