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What is Rape Culture?
#1
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I saw this this morning and thought it might be informative and constructive to read and discuss! aka the antithesis of that closed thread.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/what-is-rape-culture
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/what-is-rape-culture
#2
PatrThom
PatrThom
I know that this may sound malicious, but it is not at all intended that way. Nobody here wants to discuss Rape with you, Charlie.
--Patrick
--Patrick
#3
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
This will not end well. Reporting to put it out of it's misery.
#4
bhamv3
bhamv3
Pretty decent article though.
#5
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
#6
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
#7
Dave
Dave
I think it's an interesting article, but like everything else it's not all black & white. I would say that the cases of false rape accusations are so far below the actual rapes that it should - and I stress "should" - be hardly discussed at all. But like school shootings, which are an infinitesimal portion of the actual shooting deaths/events in the US, false rape accusations get an abnormal amount of coverage. I think it's because it plays into the narrative that gives those in power the most leverage. Do I think we're actually in a rape culture? I can't say. I haven't ever been around people who think raping or forcing someone is a good thing. So like racism, it's just something I don't see...but I'm neither a minority or a woman so I guess that's to be expected.
As to the Woody Allen thing...I think he's guilty as sin. First, the victim and her mother are the ones saying it happened, but Woody Allen himself is strangely silent on the matter. His friend has written the only real defense and it's just chock full of tidbits that make me queasy. And the fact that Woody's son says it didn't happen is not a valid accounting, either, because if Woody did it he wouldn't have done it in front of anyone else.
Having said all of that, unless either one has been proven to be lying it's just one person's word against another's. Sad truth is, even though I believe he's a pedophile rapist, I don't think there can be any way to bring enough evidence to bring him to justice and that he'll most likely get away with it. Hollywood will still laud him because he's a good director and people have a real gift for not seeing what they don't want to see.
As to the Woody Allen thing...I think he's guilty as sin. First, the victim and her mother are the ones saying it happened, but Woody Allen himself is strangely silent on the matter. His friend has written the only real defense and it's just chock full of tidbits that make me queasy. And the fact that Woody's son says it didn't happen is not a valid accounting, either, because if Woody did it he wouldn't have done it in front of anyone else.
Having said all of that, unless either one has been proven to be lying it's just one person's word against another's. Sad truth is, even though I believe he's a pedophile rapist, I don't think there can be any way to bring enough evidence to bring him to justice and that he'll most likely get away with it. Hollywood will still laud him because he's a good director and people have a real gift for not seeing what they don't want to see.
#8
Tinwhistler
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/opinion/sunday/woody-allen-speaks-out.html
Tinwhistler
I sent you this in a PM ealier.but Woody Allen himself is strangely silent on the matter.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/opinion/sunday/woody-allen-speaks-out.html
#9
Dave
Dave
How did I miss you sent me a PM? Whoa. Reading now and sorry! My email has been wonky.[DOUBLEPOST=1391897629,1391897248][/DOUBLEPOST]Interesting. So this HAS been investigated. I'd like to see some of this information - from either side - come from a neutral party, because holy crap is this a shit situation.
#10
Tinwhistler
Now, there are problems with this report. The doctors destroyed their notes before submitting it, for example, so we can't go back and see the details that led to the report, only the summary of their conclusions.
Tinwhistler
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...farrow-sexual-abuse-secret-report-exonerated/Interesting. So this HAS been investigated. I'd like to see some of this information - from either side - come from a neutral party, because holy crap is this a shit situation.
Now, there are problems with this report. The doctors destroyed their notes before submitting it, for example, so we can't go back and see the details that led to the report, only the summary of their conclusions.
#11
figmentPez
figmentPez
Sorry, I can't take that article Charlie posted without protest. They talk up the broadening of the definition of rape to include male victims as the major milestone it is, but also fail to mention that men forced to penetrate are still not counted as rape victims. 1 in 72 men will be raped in their lifetime under the existing definition, but if you include men forced to penetrate (and, really, all people who are forced to have sex against their will should be counted as rape victims) then the statistic jumps to 1 in 16. Not only that, but the statistics for 2010, specifically, put the number of male rape victims as equal to the number of female rape victims that year... but only if you include men who were forced to penetrate. (All numbers are from the NISVS survey done by the CDC)
#12
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I admittedly don't have a firm side on the Woody Allen mess other than it's incredibly fucked up for everyone to attack Dylan Farrow, since no matter WHAT you believe, she's ostensibly a victim.
But this thread was more for the broader view than the Woody Allen thing, although it's started a lot of conversations lately.
Also - I don't think "rape culture" is something that means "everyone is pro rape and thinks it's awesome".
But this thread was more for the broader view than the Woody Allen thing, although it's started a lot of conversations lately.
Also - I don't think "rape culture" is something that means "everyone is pro rape and thinks it's awesome".
#13
Dave
Dave
Strangely enough, I think the rape culture you're speaking of is actually driven more bu bureaucracy than anything. Like a school that has a vested interest in a sports program that favors the accused (and exacerbates the situation) regardless of evidence, or a military culture that is very pro "keep it in the unit".I admittedly don't have a firm side on the Woody Allen mess other than it's incredibly fucked up for everyone to attack Dylan Farrow, since no matter WHAT you believe, she's ostensibly a victim.
But this thread was more for the broader view than the Woody Allen thing, although it's started a lot of conversations lately.
Also - I don't think "rape culture" is something that means "everyone is pro rape and thinks it's awesome".
#14
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
All of that shit comes from the patriarchy.Strangely enough, I think the rape culture you're speaking of is actually driven more bu bureaucracy than anything. Like a school that has a vested interest in a sports program that favors the accused (and exacerbates the situation) regardless of evidence, or a military culture that is very pro "keep it in the unit".
#15
Dave
Dave
On Woody: http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/02/woody-allen-sex-abuse-10-facts
On the patriarchy...well, I think that term has been flung around a lot and the meaning has been utilized as nausium to refer to any number of things from the sociological to the biological. While I would have to admit that in general the world is patriarchal, there are varying degrees of male domination. And while I agree that there should be a standard of equality, there also needs to be built into that structure an understanding that there are differences between the genders. Certain functions are more suited - IN GENERAL - to one gender or the other. But instead of trying to force some into areas where they are destined to fail, we need to understand and logically accept these differences. No, I'm not saying, "Women should be in the kitchen." I'm looking at things like military service, police/fire work, etc. Difficult, physical, and demanding jobs for which men are just better suited. Are there women who can do the jobs? Yes, of course. And there are men who can't. But in general, men are more physiologically able to perform in these instances.
Here's a great example of that. Women in the Marines can't do the required amount of pull-ups. 55% fail. So what does the Marine Corps do? They removed the exercise until they review it better. Would they do this for men? Nope. And why is this important? Because in a situation of wartime - which the Marines are training for - there are times when you need to be able to physically carry people to safety, or pull yourself up and over a wall, or any number of things that require upper body strength. Equality is one thing, but not recognizing the differences in physiology is putting people at risk.
On the flip side, women are more emotionally in tune with the world. They are much, much better at child rearing. Or if not better...different. They are generally more empathetic and nurturing, which makes them better physicians, better in the service areas, etc.
The problem is, we get so focused on the equality section, that we fail to recognize basic differences in evolutionary psychology and physiology. Or we ignore them in the name of political correctness.
On the patriarchy...well, I think that term has been flung around a lot and the meaning has been utilized as nausium to refer to any number of things from the sociological to the biological. While I would have to admit that in general the world is patriarchal, there are varying degrees of male domination. And while I agree that there should be a standard of equality, there also needs to be built into that structure an understanding that there are differences between the genders. Certain functions are more suited - IN GENERAL - to one gender or the other. But instead of trying to force some into areas where they are destined to fail, we need to understand and logically accept these differences. No, I'm not saying, "Women should be in the kitchen." I'm looking at things like military service, police/fire work, etc. Difficult, physical, and demanding jobs for which men are just better suited. Are there women who can do the jobs? Yes, of course. And there are men who can't. But in general, men are more physiologically able to perform in these instances.
Here's a great example of that. Women in the Marines can't do the required amount of pull-ups. 55% fail. So what does the Marine Corps do? They removed the exercise until they review it better. Would they do this for men? Nope. And why is this important? Because in a situation of wartime - which the Marines are training for - there are times when you need to be able to physically carry people to safety, or pull yourself up and over a wall, or any number of things that require upper body strength. Equality is one thing, but not recognizing the differences in physiology is putting people at risk.
On the flip side, women are more emotionally in tune with the world. They are much, much better at child rearing. Or if not better...different. They are generally more empathetic and nurturing, which makes them better physicians, better in the service areas, etc.
The problem is, we get so focused on the equality section, that we fail to recognize basic differences in evolutionary psychology and physiology. Or we ignore them in the name of political correctness.
#16
figmentPez
Which is to say, there are patriarchal elements in our society, just as there are some elements of a direct democracy, even in our republic system, but it's hardly the defining characteristic of our culture.
figmentPez
The US is about as much a patriarchy as it is a direct democracy.All of that shit comes from the patriarchy.
Which is to say, there are patriarchal elements in our society, just as there are some elements of a direct democracy, even in our republic system, but it's hardly the defining characteristic of our culture.
#17
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I don't think you understand what the patriarchy is or means, maybe that will be my next thread
#18
Dave
Dave
Or maybe we do understand it and disagree with your assessment of its meaning.I don't think you understand what the patriarchy is or means, maybe that will be my next thread
#19
figmentPez
figmentPez
Oh, I'm fully aware that "the patriarchy" means whatever the hell is most convenient for the politically correct argument of the week. It's like blaming something on "the weather". It's a generic enough term that it's all encompassing. Crops not doing well? It's "the weather". New restaurant went under? It's "the weather". Electricity bill higher this month? Must be "the weather". It's enough of the truth in so many cases that people don't stop to think that there are many other factors, and even if "the weather" is the sole cause of something, it's such a non-specific concept that it doesn't mean crap. Anything and everything gets blamed on "the patriarchy" and it means even less than blaming stuff on "the weather".I don't think you understand what the patriarchy is or means, maybe that will be my next thread
#20
Espy
Espy
While we are slowly moving out of it I do have to scratch my head at anyone who thinks our country isn't (or at least isn't dealing with the ramifications of having been) a patriarchy (i.e. "Patriarchy is a social system in which males are the primary authority figures central to social organization, occupying roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children."). I mean, what is the evidence we aren't? Is it all the women who have been president? All the female CEO's throughout history? I mean, seriously guys, it's not some crazy concept, it's our history. It's something that is changing the more our society achieves equality but the lingering effects don't just go away. One only has to watch a documentary about sexual abuse in the military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invisible_War) to see how entrenched these kinds of ideologies still are in our society.
Many (most?) cultures are patriarchies. Everyone gets all pissy and defensive when the term is brought up, and I can't figure out why. It doesn't mean being a man is bad or being a man in power is bad. It's more of a historical and cultural fact.
Many (most?) cultures are patriarchies. Everyone gets all pissy and defensive when the term is brought up, and I can't figure out why. It doesn't mean being a man is bad or being a man in power is bad. It's more of a historical and cultural fact.
#21
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
You have no idea what you're talking about. I regret not ignoring this post the second I saw the word "politically correct". I am dumber for having read it all. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.Oh, I'm fully aware that "the patriarchy" means whatever the hell is most convenient for the politically correct argument of the week. It's like blaming something on "the weather". It's a generic enough term that it's all encompassing. Crops not doing well? It's "the weather". New restaurant went under? It's "the weather". Electricity bill higher this month? Must be "the weather". It's enough of the truth in so many cases that people don't stop to think that there are many other factors, and even if "the weather" is the sole cause of something, it's such a non-specific concept that it doesn't mean crap. Anything and everything gets blamed on "the patriarchy" and it means even less than blaming stuff on "the weather".
#22
Espy
Espy
Charlie, lets dial it back a few here ok? Not every discussion has to be set at 11, just because you drew an 11 on your amp.
#23
Gilgamesh
I love these threads so much. Everyone still doesn't get it, but I do. Keep on @Charlie Don't Surf you are the master.
Gilgamesh
I don't think you understand what the patriarchy is or means, maybe that will be my next thread
I love these threads so much. Everyone still doesn't get it, but I do. Keep on @Charlie Don't Surf you are the master.
#24
Espy
Espy
Antagonizing someone after I've asked for us to try and keep the discussion a little calmer isn't going to help.
#25
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
White, straight, cis men absolutely cannot stand the idea that they have privilege.Many (most?) cultures are patriarchies. Everyone gets all pissy and defensive when the term is brought up, and I can't figure out why.
#26
figmentPez
Different people use "the patriarchy" to mean different things, and I have yet to have any point to a definitive definition of the term, even specifically relating to sociology. While there is some agreement on what a patriarchal society is structured like, that's different than The Patriarchy, and I'll wager dollars to donuts that Charlie was about to start talking about The Patriarchy as if it's an organized system, some political machine designed to benefit all men at the expense of all women.[DOUBLEPOST=1391908472,1391908278][/DOUBLEPOST]
figmentPez
Because far too many people believe that "an individual male = the patriarchy", and, like I said, so many things get blamed on it in such a generic way that it doesn't actually mean much to say it. Acknowledging that there are patriarchal elements in our society is different than people raving about "the patriarchy" like they protested against "the man" back in the 60s. "The patriarchy" is often treated as if it's an Illuminati type organization, and not a system of interacting social trends.Many (most?) cultures are patriarchies. Everyone gets all pissy and defensive when the term is brought up, and I can't figure out why. It doesn't mean being a man is bad or being a man in power is bad. It's more of a historical and cultural fact.
Different people use "the patriarchy" to mean different things, and I have yet to have any point to a definitive definition of the term, even specifically relating to sociology. While there is some agreement on what a patriarchal society is structured like, that's different than The Patriarchy, and I'll wager dollars to donuts that Charlie was about to start talking about The Patriarchy as if it's an organized system, some political machine designed to benefit all men at the expense of all women.[DOUBLEPOST=1391908472,1391908278][/DOUBLEPOST]
Yes, because an illiterate, short, disfigured, in-debt-up-to-his-eyeballs, West Virginia coal miner with no clean water to drink is inherently more privileged than any woman, simply because he's a white, straight, cis-gendered male. Obviously he has much more political sway and control over his life than say, Michelle Obama, who is so inherently disadvantaged by being a minority female that she couldn't possibly get anyone to listen to her, or exercise power in any way. No privilege to be found in her life.White, straight, cis men absolutely cannot stand the idea that they have privilege.
#27
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
And some of them feel a deep guilt over this, and thus flagellate themselves (and others) in order to atone for their perceived transgression(s) which are nothing more than an accident of birth.White, straight, cis men absolutely cannot stand the idea that they have privilege.
--Patrick
#28
Espy
You know how I finally figured out that Rush Limbaugh was lying to me about the evil "liberal" agenda to destroy men and how feminists were just "making this all up because they had their periods" (ha! It's so funny!)?
I got married.
I got married to a strong, fiery woman who was told by people in the army she wasn't worth as much as a man. She was told by people at her school that she should drop her major because no one will hire women for that job. She was told by people in her church to give up on doing anything but taking care of kids. She was told by men in society that her worth was her vagina and tits by way of some dude across the street yelling that she should suck his dick.
And then I had a daughter.
And I loathe the idea of her growing up in a society where if she is abused or raped people in authority will ask her what she was wearing or did she "lead them on". I loathe the idea that if she is raped men and women alike will say, "She's just a kid, she probably doesn't remember right" or "You can't trust a kid" or even better "maybe she's lying to get that man in trouble, because that has happened so lets suspect all abuse victims" I loathe the idea that anyone will tell her she can't do a certain job because she's "just a woman" or treat her like a sexual object because they've been told their whole life that women are just that, objects for men to enjoy.
I've held the views that the "patriarchy" and "white male privilege" and "feminazi" were jokes. I've held the view that women are not men's equals and are mainly good for raising kids and not much else. I've held those views and only in the last 10 years or so have I come to understand how offensive those views are and how much damage they can cause. But it didn't change overnight. I didn't wake up and realize I was privileged until I saw it for myself. Lets not berate others for holding a different view, these things go DEEP into people's cultures and lives. It's not going to change overnight. Talking about it in a rational way might plant some seeds, as cheesy as that sounds, that someone can't shake. Weirder things have happened.
Espy
My experience says that it's a very true thing, but I think a big part of the reason it's true isn't just because it's hard to come to terms with the fact that one is privileged but because the people often telling them that do it like assholes.White, straight, cis men absolutely cannot stand the idea that they have privilege.
You know how I finally figured out that Rush Limbaugh was lying to me about the evil "liberal" agenda to destroy men and how feminists were just "making this all up because they had their periods" (ha! It's so funny!)?
I got married.
I got married to a strong, fiery woman who was told by people in the army she wasn't worth as much as a man. She was told by people at her school that she should drop her major because no one will hire women for that job. She was told by people in her church to give up on doing anything but taking care of kids. She was told by men in society that her worth was her vagina and tits by way of some dude across the street yelling that she should suck his dick.
And then I had a daughter.
And I loathe the idea of her growing up in a society where if she is abused or raped people in authority will ask her what she was wearing or did she "lead them on". I loathe the idea that if she is raped men and women alike will say, "She's just a kid, she probably doesn't remember right" or "You can't trust a kid" or even better "maybe she's lying to get that man in trouble, because that has happened so lets suspect all abuse victims" I loathe the idea that anyone will tell her she can't do a certain job because she's "just a woman" or treat her like a sexual object because they've been told their whole life that women are just that, objects for men to enjoy.
I've held the views that the "patriarchy" and "white male privilege" and "feminazi" were jokes. I've held the view that women are not men's equals and are mainly good for raising kids and not much else. I've held those views and only in the last 10 years or so have I come to understand how offensive those views are and how much damage they can cause. But it didn't change overnight. I didn't wake up and realize I was privileged until I saw it for myself. Lets not berate others for holding a different view, these things go DEEP into people's cultures and lives. It's not going to change overnight. Talking about it in a rational way might plant some seeds, as cheesy as that sounds, that someone can't shake. Weirder things have happened.
#29
tegid
So I think you may be misinterpreting some feminist ideas and attacking a strawman. That, or I misinterpreted you, but I don't think that's the case.
tegid
Although mentions to the patriarchy could be read with this 'organization' interpretation, as far as I know I have never seen it used in a way that was inequivocably this and as far as I've been able to understand what people meant, I've always seen it used as something like 'the social and psychological mechanisms that establish and maintain societal power of males over females'. I mean, phrases like 'we are all the patriarchy' or 'it's in all of us' are not unusual (maybe my wording is bc I'm falling asleep but you get the gist of it).Because far too many people believe that "an individual male = the patriarchy", and, like I said, so many things get blamed on it in such a generic way that it doesn't actually mean much to say it. Acknowledging that there are patriarchal elements in our society is different than people raving about "the patriarchy" like they protested against "the man" back in the 60s. "The patriarchy" is often treated as if it's an Illuminati type organization, and not a system of interacting social trends.
Different people use "the patriarchy" to mean different things, and I have yet to have any point to a definitive definition of the term, even specifically relating to sociology. While there is some agreement on what a patriarchal society is structured like, that's different than The Patriarchy, and I'll wager dollars to donuts that Charlie was about to start talking about The Patriarchy as if it's an organized system, some political machine designed to benefit all men at the expense of all women.
So I think you may be misinterpreting some feminist ideas and attacking a strawman. That, or I misinterpreted you, but I don't think that's the case.
#30
Espy
Espy
I can't speak for Charlie (nor am I interested in doing so) but I can't disagree more that there isn't a basic definition and that it's a big part of our cultural and social heritage (but certainly not an "illuminati" type thing). I think dismissing it is far to similar to the textbooks I had to read as a kid in religious private school that basically said that women preferred life in the 40's and 50's or the Duck Dynasty guy saying that black people loved living under Jim Crow. I'm not saying lay all of our societal faults on it, but it's hard to deny we are a country steeped in patriarchal thinking, or at least we used to be.Because far too many people believe that "an individual male = the patriarchy", and, like I said, so many things get blamed on it in such a generic way that it doesn't actually mean much to say it. Acknowledging that there are patriarchal elements in our society is different than people raving about "the patriarchy" like they protested against "the man" back in the 60s. "The patriarchy" is often treated as if it's an Illuminati type organization, and not a system of interacting social trends.
Different people use "the patriarchy" to mean different things, and I have yet to have any point to a definitive definition of the term, even specifically relating to sociology. While there is some agreement on what a patriarchal society is structured like, that's different than The Patriarchy, and I'll wager dollars to donuts that Charlie was about to start talking about The Patriarchy as if it's an organized system, some political machine designed to benefit all men at the expense of all women.[DOUBLEPOST=1391908472,1391908278][/DOUBLEPOST]
Thats not really how the idea of privilege works, but I think you know that.Yes, because an illiterate, short, disfigured, in-debt-up-to-his-eyeballs, West Virginia coal miner with no clean water to drink is inherently more privileged than any woman, simply because he's a white, straight, cis-gendered male. Obviously he has much more political sway and control over his life than say, Michelle Obama, who is so inherently disadvantaged by being a minority female that she couldn't possibly get anyone to listen to her, or exercise power in any way. No privilege to be found in her life.
This is also true not helpful at all in the fight for equality in our society.And some of them feel a deep guilt over this, and thus flagellate themselves (and others) in order to atone for their perceived transgression(s) which are nothing more than an accident of birth.
--Patrick
#31
figmentPez
figmentPez
While there is a lot of grey area, I'm trying to draw a distinction between people who talk about "patriarchy" and those who talk about "The Patriarchy", because in my experience there is a marked difference. I mean, when people who talk about "the patriarchy" also say stuff like "The only way to make men equal to women is to bring them down," (source), yeah, I feel justified in thinking that there are a lot of people with a fucked up view of the concept.So I think you may be misinterpreting some feminist ideas and attacking a strawman. That, or I misinterpreted you, but I don't think that's the case.
#32
Espy
Espy
I think you are talking about the difference between people who are dicks and people who aren't. Don't assume everyone who discusses things like patriarchy or privilege is a "man-hater". That sort of thinking from either side doesn't do anyone any good in this case, unless the goal is to just shout each other down. That I have no interest in.
#33
figmentPez
figmentPez
Okay, but is that basic definition, and acknowledgement that we do have a history of predominantly male power in our society the same thing as saying "All of that shit comes from the patriarchy." Because that's a pretty big leap, and why I have reacted as strongly as I did. There are a lot of social systems that have little or nothing to do with men being in power that play into sweeping sexual assault under the rug in various settings. Now, if Charlie had said all that stuff was related to the patriarchal elements in our society, I'd have been far more willing to listen, but you know damn well that there are a lot of people out there who want to pretend that men are the sole cause of sexual violence, and men being in power is the reason that sexual violence is prevalent.I can't speak for Charlie (nor am I interested in doing so) but I can't disagree more that there isn't a basic definition and that it's a big part of our cultural and social heritage (but certainly not an "illuminati" type thing). I think dismissing it is far to similar to the textbooks I had to read as a kid in religious private school that basically said that women preferred life in the 40's and 50's or the Duck Dynasty guy saying that black people loved living under Jim Crow. I'm not saying lay all of our societal faults on it, but it's hard to deny we are a country steeped in patriarchal thinking, or at least we used to be.
#34
Espy
b) I'm not entirely sure what all the "stuff" you are talking about is. Did I miss something? I don't think anyone blamed all of societies problems on the patriarchal systems in our country. However, you can't deny that when you have a dominant cultural ideology it MUST take some responsibility for it's influence.
Espy
a) I think it's, uh, a little weird to not see how sexual violence perpetrated by men isn't on some level tied into the concepts of male privilege and patriarchal systems. I can't figure out how to NOT connect them. Of course it's never as easy as blaming 1 sociological idea, we all know that theres far more factors than that. But a connection? Of course.Okay, but is that basic definition, and acknowledgement that we do have a history of predominantly male power in our society the same thing as saying "All of that shit comes from the patriarchy." Because that's a pretty big leap, and why I have reacted as strongly as I did. There are a lot of social systems that have little or nothing to do with men being in power that play into sweeping sexual assault under the rug in various settings. Now, if Charlie had said all that stuff was related to the patriarchal elements in our society, I'd have been far more willing to listen, but you know damn well that there are a lot of people out there who want to pretend that men are the sole cause of sexual violence, and men being in power is the reason that sexual violence is prevalent.
b) I'm not entirely sure what all the "stuff" you are talking about is. Did I miss something? I don't think anyone blamed all of societies problems on the patriarchal systems in our country. However, you can't deny that when you have a dominant cultural ideology it MUST take some responsibility for it's influence.
#35
tegid
There's certainly some people who view feminism as "we'll take men down and be on top ourselves" but:
- I don't think they are really feminists, they are just sexists. And I hate them for not understanding shit and working against equality.
- I still don't think the view of the patriarchy as something explicit or organized a la Illuminati is widespread.
I'll concede that people who use The Patriarchy (especially if it's with capital T and P) are much more likely to be extremists or not-really-feminists than people who don't, if nothing else because someone who doesn't spend some time thinking or battling on this issues wouldn't do it.
tegid
Well, I've often found myself using 'the patriarchy' in the same way the image uses 'patriarchy' (expressing the same idea even), but not in the way the comment does. So that's a data point in the other directionWhile there is a lot of grey area, I'm trying to draw a distinction between people who talk about "patriarchy" and those who talk about "The Patriarchy", because in my experience there is a marked difference. I mean, when people who talk about "the patriarchy" also say stuff like "The only way to make men equal to women is to bring them down," (source), yeah, I feel justified in thinking that there are a lot of people with a fucked up view of the concept.
There's certainly some people who view feminism as "we'll take men down and be on top ourselves" but:
- I don't think they are really feminists, they are just sexists. And I hate them for not understanding shit and working against equality.
- I still don't think the view of the patriarchy as something explicit or organized a la Illuminati is widespread.
I'll concede that people who use The Patriarchy (especially if it's with capital T and P) are much more likely to be extremists or not-really-feminists than people who don't, if nothing else because someone who doesn't spend some time thinking or battling on this issues wouldn't do it.
#36
Espy
Espy
Listen to this guy. He's nailing it.Well, I've often found myself using 'the patriarchy' in the same way the image uses 'patriarchy' (expressing the same idea even), but not in the way the comment does. So that's a data point in the other direction
There's certainly some people who view feminism as "we'll take men down and be on top ourselves" but:
- I don't think they are really feminists, they are just sexists. And I hate them for not understanding shit and working against equality.
- I still don't think the view of the patriarchy as something explicit or organized a la Illuminati is widespread.
I'll concede that people who use The Patriarchy (especially if it's with capital T and P) are much more likely to be extremists or not-really-feminists than people who don't, if nothing else because someone who doesn't spend some time thinking or battling on this issues wouldn't do it.
#37
tegid
tegid
"The patriarchy" as in the ideas most of us have internalized to some degree that attribute to women the function of sexual objects and victims and to men the function of sexual 'predators'. In this sense yes, a lot of what happens in the two cases Dave mentioned stem from this kind of things. And what doesn't comes from 'normal' or non-gendered power dynamics, but since gender is involved it's hard to disentangle both and depending on your prism you could also attribute them to sexism, or say it exacerbates them."All of that shit comes from the patriarchy."
#38
figmentPez
The idea that men are the predominant* source of sexual violence in our country is false, and demonstrably so. Therefore the idea that the root cause of sexual violence can be found in our patriarchal history is very dubious, because women obviously feel that they are entitled to take sex by force as well.
*EDIT: Sorry, my aphasia kicked in. I used the wrong word. I have corrected "primary" to "predominant".
figmentPez
Except that the problem of sexual violence in our society extends far beyond violence perpetrated by men. First, a study by the journal JAMA Pediatrics found that "males and females carried out sexual violence at strikingly similar rates after the age of 18 -- 52% of males and 48% of females." Second is that the aforementioned NISVS study found that men were most likely to be victims of sexual assault when they're young, mostly pre-teen (not surprising given than men get a lot larger and stronger, on average, after that time), and when they're young they more likely to be victims of women, than they are of men. If you look at the statistics for men who are "made to penetrate" (the term for men who are made to have sex against their will, but aren't counted as rape victims in official statistics) you'll find that well over 80% of those reported a lone female perpetrator. So, of those people forced to have sex against their will in 2010, well over 40% of the perpetrators were female.a) I think it's, uh, a little weird to not see how sexual violence perpetrated by men isn't on some level tied into the concepts of male privilege and patriarchal systems. I can't figure out how to NOT connect them. Of course it's never as easy as blaming 1 sociological idea, we all know that theres far more factors than that. But a connection? Of course.
The idea that men are the predominant* source of sexual violence in our country is false, and demonstrably so. Therefore the idea that the root cause of sexual violence can be found in our patriarchal history is very dubious, because women obviously feel that they are entitled to take sex by force as well.
It's a direct quote from Charlie in post #14 of the thread.b) I'm not entirely sure what all the "stuff" you are talking about is. Did I miss something? I don't think anyone blamed all of societies problems on the patriarchal systems in our country. However, you can't deny that when you have a dominant cultural ideology it MUST take some responsibility for it's influence.
*EDIT: Sorry, my aphasia kicked in. I used the wrong word. I have corrected "primary" to "predominant".
#39
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
The best way to perpetuate your beliefs is to outproduce your opposition and indoctrinate your (presumably greater quantity of) offspring with your ideals. Some will no doubt defect, but so long as you continue to produce more and more offspring, you should be able to make up for this attrition. If you manage to somehow win influence over and indoctrinate the offspring of others (schooling, propaganda), your job becomes easier.Therefore the idea that the root cause of sexual violence can be found in our patriarchal history is very dubious, because women obviously feel that they are entitled to take sex by force as well.
--Patrick
#40
Espy
Espy
I… don't think that was ever what we were talking about? Nor did I say it's the "root" problem? I'm kind of getting the feeling that you aren't really interested in discussing this, rather you want to win an argument with Charlie.Except that the problem of sexual violence in our society extends far beyond violence perpetrated by men. First, a study by the journal JAMA Pediatrics found that "males and females carried out sexual violence at strikingly similar rates after the age of 18 -- 52% of males and 48% of females." Second is that the aforementioned NISVS study found that men were most likely to be victims of sexual assault when they're young, mostly pre-teen (not surprising given than men get a lot larger and stronger, on average, after that time), and when they're young they more likely to be victims of women, than they are of men. If you look at the statistics for men who are "made to penetrate" (the term for men who are made to have sex against their will, but aren't counted as rape victims in official statistics) you'll find that well over 80% of those reported a lone female perpetrator. So, of those people forced to have sex against their will in 2010, well over 40% of the perpetrators were female.
The idea that men are the predominant* source of sexual violence in our country is false, and demonstrably so. Therefore the idea that the root cause of sexual violence can be found in our patriarchal history is very dubious, because women obviously feel that they are entitled to take sex by force as well.
#41
figmentPez
figmentPez
We're talking about "rape culture" right? I was under the assumption that this thread was discussing the prevalence of sexual violence in our culture, and Charlie blamed it on "the patriarchy", which I don't think is a fair assessment.I… don't think that was ever what we were talking about? Nor did I say it's the "root" problem? I'm kind of getting the feeling that you aren't really interested in discussing this, rather you want to win an argument with Charlie.
#42
Bowielee
Bowielee
It is, however, most likely a very large contributing factor. I'm sure you're not surprised by now by the fact that Charlie is always extremely reductive in his reasoning.We're talking about "rape culture" right? I was under the assumption that this thread was discussing the prevalence of sexual violence in our culture, and Charlie blamed it on "the patriarchy", which I don't think is a fair assessment.
#43
PatrThom
So also count me among those who are confused since it is obvious that every slice of the population pushes their own multiple agenda, whether you slice along gender lines, racial lines, socioeconomic lines, geographical lines, etc. I get the feeling the thread was originally created to decry all the raping that cis white males do, when in fact members of each facet of the population will happily literally and figuratively rape members of other non-alike facets (with discrepancies that are real or imagined) as a way of trading power. For those who don't bother to remember My Personal Opinions™, I view "rape" as purely a demonstration of dominance/violation, and only peripherally related to procreation. As such, "sexual assault" in my vocabulary is not automatically synonymous with "rape."
--Patrick
PatrThom
I… don't think that was ever what we were talking about?
I also am one who got the impression that we had a fortune cookie situation going on in this thread, except that instead of "...in bed," every sentence is being ended (by some) with an implied "...by males." So, sexual violence "...by males," rape culture "...by males," etc.We're talking about "rape culture" right? I was under the assumption that this thread was discussing the prevalence of sexual violence in our culture, and Charlie blamed it on "the patriarchy", which I don't think is a fair assessment.
So also count me among those who are confused since it is obvious that every slice of the population pushes their own multiple agenda, whether you slice along gender lines, racial lines, socioeconomic lines, geographical lines, etc. I get the feeling the thread was originally created to decry all the raping that cis white males do, when in fact members of each facet of the population will happily literally and figuratively rape members of other non-alike facets (with discrepancies that are real or imagined) as a way of trading power. For those who don't bother to remember My Personal Opinions™, I view "rape" as purely a demonstration of dominance/violation, and only peripherally related to procreation. As such, "sexual assault" in my vocabulary is not automatically synonymous with "rape."
--Patrick
#44
GasBandit
GasBandit
White, straight, cis men absolutely cannot stand the idea that they have privilege.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I regret not ignoring this post the second I saw the word "politically correct". I am dumber for having read it all. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
I don't think you understand what the patriarchy is or means, maybe that will be my next thread
All of that shit comes from the patriarchy.
#45
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
But it's so hilarious to watch people actually try and converse with him. They talk like normal people and he just explodes. It's like an SNL character that just yells at everyone when confronted. I imagine Charlie sometimes being played by Chris Farley.
#46
figmentPez
figmentPez
On one hand I agree that imbalance of power between the genders, and all the miscommunication, animosity and other bad stuff that go along with that, is a major source of problematic sexuality; saying it's "the patriarchy" still strikes me as blaming "the weather". It's technically true, but the phrases are so broad that it doesn't really say anything. The problems of a society are the result of that society's structure. It's a tautology. There's nothing to say that a matriarchy couldn't result in sexual violence as well, or that all patriarchies will inherently encourage sexual violence.It is, however, most likely a very large contributing factor. I'm sure you're not surprised by now by the fact that Charlie is always extremely reductive in his reasoning.
#47
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
This thread is nothing but Charlie jerking off at his delusion that somehow he is better than the rest of us. Again.
#48
Espy
Espy
@PatrThom Sorry, I meant what he and I were talking about. We were discussing whether or not things like patriarchy had an effect on peoples actions, i.e. sexual assault, etc, I didn't think we were discussing "which gender rapes more". Now if thats something he and Charlie discussed well, I'm not Charlie and I'm not making his arguments for him so discuss his arguments with him (although reading over the thread I don't think he ever said women can't commit sexual violence either so… meh?).
#49
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
I stand by my earlier "self-flagellation" comment.I'm not Charlie and I'm not making his arguments for him so discuss his arguments with him (although reading over the thread I don't think he ever said women can't commit sexual violence either so… meh?).
--Patrick
#50
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
It's like I speak but no words come out.This thread is nothing but Charlie jerking off at his delusion that somehow he is better than the rest of us. Again.
#51
GasBandit
GasBandit
#52
MindDetective
MindDetective
I guess some of what @figmentPez is saying resonates a bit with me. Some people, like @Charlie Don't Surf in this thread, seem to personify that specific element of our society when they say "the patriarchy", referring to something as if it were some kind or organization. It would be like trying to blame something on "the individualism" of society. Damn the individualism! In some ways, this isn't too surprising. People treat companies and organizations as if they are a single person. ("Fuck the police", for example, or "Walmart is evil"). I feel like when Charlie and others refer to "the patriarchy", that is the same kind of thinking they are employing: a semantic short-cut that personifies an abstract entity. Our (decreasingly) patriarchal society does have problems and many of them are due to the patriarchal nature to some degree. Simply pointing a finger at "the patriarchy" as if it is a concrete entity does a great disservice to trying to highlight and fix those problems though. If Charlie genuinely did care about trying to do something about them, he would speak on each of those problems specifically, and not try to white wash them (no pun intended) with a raw, angry sentiment.
#53
Bowielee
Bowielee
Again, It's Charlie, his posts will never be well thought out or nuanced. However, I do feel the need to point out that legally speaking, corporations are a person with all the rights afforded therein by the constitution.I guess some of what @figmentPez is saying resonates a bit with me. Some people, like @Charlie Don't Surf in this thread, seem to personify that specific element of our society when they say "the patriarchy", referring to something as if it were some kind or organization. It would be like trying to blame something on "the individualism" of society. Damn the individualism! In some ways, this isn't too surprising. People treat companies and organizations as if they are a single person. ("Fuck the police", for example, or "Walmart is evil"). I feel like when Charlie and others refer to "the patriarchy", that is the same kind of thinking they are employing: a semantic short-cut that personifies an abstract entity. Our (decreasingly) patriarchal society does have problems and many of them are due to the patriarchal nature to some degree. Simply pointing a finger at "the patriarchy" as if it is a concrete entity does a great disservice to trying to highlight and fix those problems though. If Charlie genuinely did care about trying to do something about them, he would speak on each of those problems specifically, and not try to white wash them (no pun intended) with a raw, angry sentiment.
#54
MindDetective
MindDetective
Well, I did say "single person"
#55
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
It's like all of the worst of the tumblr social justice crowd in one flailing, bleating, CIS WHITE MALE.
#56
Bowielee
Bowielee
These types of threads go much better if you largely ignore Charlie posting in them. I'll talk about movies with him, but on issues like this, it's like trying to reason with a rabid bulldog.It's like all of the worst of the tumblr social justice crowd in one flailing, bleating, CIS WHITE MALE.
#57
Espy
Espy
I've always felt that, outside of radicals with little or no desire for complexity, when people talk about "the patriarchy" it's referring to the social ideas much of our culture has developed around, not, as some have mentioned, a crazy illuminati group with a base on the moon. Usually it's part of a larger discussion about culture and society rather than a sole focus of blame. But then again, I try to hang around folks who are reasonable and don't live in a totally black and white world.
#58
figmentPez
figmentPez
Yeah, well, I've been spending way too much time around college students and on Tumblr (a lot of overlap there.) Many of them do live in a black and white world.I've always felt that, outside of radicals with little or no desire for complexity, when people talk about "the patriarchy" it's referring to the social ideas much of our culture has developed around, not, as some have mentioned, a crazy illuminati group with a base on the moon. Usually it's part of a larger discussion about culture and society rather than a sole focus of blame. But then again, I try to hang around folks who are reasonable and don't live in a totally black and white world.
#59
MindDetective
MindDetective
I think it is the difference between a and the that is important. The is a word that points to something specific. But patriarchy is not a terribly specific concept, especially in our patriarchy, where leadership is dramatically decentralized. Thus, the phrase "the patriarchy" doesn't really communicate very well what we are talking about. It is a matter of speaking vaguely instead of precisely, which I hinted at was the great disservice in my previous post.I've always felt that, outside of radicals with little or no desire for complexity, when people talk about "the patriarchy" it's referring to the social ideas much of our culture has developed around, not, as some have mentioned, a crazy illuminati group with a base on the moon. Usually it's part of a larger discussion about culture and society rather than a sole focus of blame. But then again, I try to hang around folks who are reasonable and don't live in a totally black and white world.
#60
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
tegid and espy know what they're talking about, listen to them
also, I love when you guys compLETELY prove my point
also, I love when you guys compLETELY prove my point
#61
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
also, I love when you guys compLETELY prove my point
#62
MindDetective
MindDetective
Kind of looks like you proved mine. Simply put: you suck at communicating your ideas.tegid and espy know what they're talking about, listen to them
also, I love when you guys compLETELY prove my point
#63
Bowielee
Bowielee
Charlie stuff aside, I do think this is a topic worth talking about and I'm enjoying the discussion outside of the usual Charlie/Gilgamesh garbage.Kind of looks like you proved mine. Simply put: you suck at communicating your ideas.
#64
GasBandit
No, he does not suck at communicating his ideas, he has no ideas. He parrots talking points from his attached cause.
I'm going to have to beg your pardon, here MindDetective, I'm going to stoop to charlie level here a bit, and make a fallacious (but factual) appeal to emotion.
Charlie.
As the widower of a rape victim, I know more intimately than most the devastating, lifelong effects wrought upon a woman who has been assaulted and violated in such a reprehensible manner. The long years of fear and hardship were a daily struggle in life that I did my best to help her find her way through and blossom back into the vibrant person I knew her to be. I know about the scars it leaves, both physical and mental. I have seen the evil that men do.
So it is that I take great umbridge when you, and those like you, tell me that I am not "down for your struggle." It is personally insulting to see the banner of "defending women" taken up by lunatics, or empty vessels who have no inherent self-worth and try to manufacture it by becoming templars for an unassailable cause. The unhinged ravings of the former and the manifestly hollow and self-serving nonsense of the latter only serve to exacerbate the very "culture" you purport to fight because it does not raise awareness, it engenders dismissiveness. The combativeness combined with the affectation reaffirms in the minds of those who dismiss the problem that they are correct in doing so as a backlash against the over-the-top he-sterics. But for these metaphorical templars, that is subconsciously just fine with them, for it perpetuates a struggle in which they are needed, and therefor worthy as people.
Furthermore, it does damage in that it mitigates blame from the true perpetrator. The men in the alley did the raping, not society, not the "patriarchy." To assert that they have been programmed by culture to do what they did is to be a rape apologist. It cheapens their choice to commit a heinous act upon another human being, an act all sane people consider to be one of the most reprehensible to be so. You tell me that the rapist doesn't make a choice to commit rape, that the true blame for his action is on a nebulous and systemic cultural paradigm that permeates everyone and everything. All so you can look yourself in the bathroom mirror and say "yes, I am a champion of women, and thus have worth."
In summary, Britta, you are the worst.
GasBandit
tegid and espy know what they're talking about, listen to them
also, I love when you guys compLETELY prove my point
/facepalmKind of looks like you proved mine. Simply put: you suck at communicating your ideas.
No, he does not suck at communicating his ideas, he has no ideas. He parrots talking points from his attached cause.
I'm going to have to beg your pardon, here MindDetective, I'm going to stoop to charlie level here a bit, and make a fallacious (but factual) appeal to emotion.
Charlie.
As the widower of a rape victim, I know more intimately than most the devastating, lifelong effects wrought upon a woman who has been assaulted and violated in such a reprehensible manner. The long years of fear and hardship were a daily struggle in life that I did my best to help her find her way through and blossom back into the vibrant person I knew her to be. I know about the scars it leaves, both physical and mental. I have seen the evil that men do.
So it is that I take great umbridge when you, and those like you, tell me that I am not "down for your struggle." It is personally insulting to see the banner of "defending women" taken up by lunatics, or empty vessels who have no inherent self-worth and try to manufacture it by becoming templars for an unassailable cause. The unhinged ravings of the former and the manifestly hollow and self-serving nonsense of the latter only serve to exacerbate the very "culture" you purport to fight because it does not raise awareness, it engenders dismissiveness. The combativeness combined with the affectation reaffirms in the minds of those who dismiss the problem that they are correct in doing so as a backlash against the over-the-top he-sterics. But for these metaphorical templars, that is subconsciously just fine with them, for it perpetuates a struggle in which they are needed, and therefor worthy as people.
Furthermore, it does damage in that it mitigates blame from the true perpetrator. The men in the alley did the raping, not society, not the "patriarchy." To assert that they have been programmed by culture to do what they did is to be a rape apologist. It cheapens their choice to commit a heinous act upon another human being, an act all sane people consider to be one of the most reprehensible to be so. You tell me that the rapist doesn't make a choice to commit rape, that the true blame for his action is on a nebulous and systemic cultural paradigm that permeates everyone and everything. All so you can look yourself in the bathroom mirror and say "yes, I am a champion of women, and thus have worth."
In summary, Britta, you are the worst.
#65
DarkAudit
DarkAudit
And on that bombshell, I think we can end the thread.
And GB, I'm buying this round.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
And GB, I'm buying this round.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
#66
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
I'm enjoying the discussion outside of the usual Charlie/Gilgamesh garbage.
#67
Bowielee
Bowielee
Because you've added so much to the thread besides stalking Charlie. Even when you're trolling a troll, at the end of the day, you're both trolls.
#68
Gilgamesh
I'll take the title in that situation.
Gilgamesh
Yep, but I only troll one person and tease him. He on the other hand trolls an entire board on sensitive subjects to people who are sensitive to the subject.Because you've added so much to the thread besides stalking Charlie. Even when you're trolling a troll, at the end of the day, you're both trolls.
I'll take the title in that situation.
#69
Bowielee
That's the last I'm gonna say on that in this thread.
Back to the real discussion.
Bowielee
I don't know if anyones ever made this clear to you. Your posts trolling Charlie are just about as annoying as his posts are, so you're not exactly on the moral high ground.Yep, but I only troll one person and tease him. He on the other hand trolls an entire board on sensitive subjects to people who are sensitive to the subject.
I'll take the title in that situation.
That's the last I'm gonna say on that in this thread.
Back to the real discussion.
#70
Gilgamesh
Do I care if I'm annoying you with what I post to Charlie? I get my amusement and I post in other threads without dealing with Charlie antics just fine. I can do both. You don't like it? I don't care
Gilgamesh
I don't know if anyones ever made this clear to you. Your posts trolling Charlie are just about as annoying as his posts are, so you're not exactly on the moral high ground.
That's the last I'm gonna say on that in this thread.
Do I care if I'm annoying you with what I post to Charlie? I get my amusement and I post in other threads without dealing with Charlie antics just fine. I can do both. You don't like it? I don't care
#71
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
I think the article makes a good point about the grey areas that occur because of poor sex education. Adolescents don't learn about communicating during sexual situations in health class; instead they learn from movies that stuff is supposed to "just happen" and not until later do they realize it's okay to talk during sex or sexually charged situations--it doesn't kill the vibe or ruin the mood. If two people want to have sex, that can continue.
That said, I can identify strongly with GasBandit more than I'm going to get into and I am 100% behind what he says, that the choice to forcefully have sex with someone when they don't want it is a choice made by the individual doing it. Doesn't matter the rapist's gender, their relation to the victim, age differences, whether they're alone or have accomplices, what their status on a football team is--they're making a conscious choice to violate another person.
As for rape culture, there is an element of entitlement among many men. I think what causes the situations where a rape is hidden by a community is more the trouble with small, tight-knit communities and their seclusion. That said, there is a problem in media perception where the rapists are not seen as rapists. That word isn't used, and that affects people who see what's happening. I read a blog post by a teacher where her high school class was discussing one of those cases, and students were noting the ruined futures of the football players. The teacher had to spell it out for her class that the boys were being punished because they are rapists. It hadn't occurred to anyone else in the room that what had happened to the girl was rape, or that by committing that rape, the boys were rapists. THAT perception is a problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP.
That said, I can identify strongly with GasBandit more than I'm going to get into and I am 100% behind what he says, that the choice to forcefully have sex with someone when they don't want it is a choice made by the individual doing it. Doesn't matter the rapist's gender, their relation to the victim, age differences, whether they're alone or have accomplices, what their status on a football team is--they're making a conscious choice to violate another person.
As for rape culture, there is an element of entitlement among many men. I think what causes the situations where a rape is hidden by a community is more the trouble with small, tight-knit communities and their seclusion. That said, there is a problem in media perception where the rapists are not seen as rapists. That word isn't used, and that affects people who see what's happening. I read a blog post by a teacher where her high school class was discussing one of those cases, and students were noting the ruined futures of the football players. The teacher had to spell it out for her class that the boys were being punished because they are rapists. It hadn't occurred to anyone else in the room that what had happened to the girl was rape, or that by committing that rape, the boys were rapists. THAT perception is a problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP.
#72
Dave
Dave
Okay, here's my red text announcement. This is a serious topic - and very personal for some, including some of our users who are rape victims. To this end, trolling will not be allowed. I know we normally let people have at it, but let's leave this thread free. I'll leave up things as they stand now, but anything new will get deleted and a thread ban - not a site ban - will come into play. No rules are being broken, which is why no points or anything like that.
Let's play nice, people.
Let's play nice, people.
#73
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
I, too, am pleasantly surprised that this has made it to the 3rd page without a lock.Let's play nice, people.
--Patrick
#74
Espy
Espy
To be clear, in no way does acknowledging the affects of something patriarchal social ideas or "rape culture" negate personal responsibility. I think a lot of people, not you @Zero Esc, think that when anyone uses those terms they are saying people aren't responsible for their actions and that couldn't be further from the truth, at least for most people I know. It's more about what you said in the beginning of your post, it's about society's failings to grow and the terrible state of our sex ed in schools and at home. To everyone reading this please, please don't ever think that having this kind of discussion negates personal responsibility.That said, I can identify strongly with GasBandit more than I'm going to get into and I am 100% behind what he says, that the choice to forcefully have sex with someone when they don't want it is a choice made by the individual doing it. Doesn't matter the rapist's gender, their relation to the victim, age differences, whether they're alone or have accomplices, what their status on a football team is--they're making a conscious choice to violate another person.
#75
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
Yeah, I don't think I've ever implied that Rape Culture means people aren't responsible for their actions or should be prosecuted / sentenced any less. In fact, sexual assault up to rape is one of the very few things I think the justice system is too lenient on.
#76
Espy
Espy
Honestly, while it isn't totally about this topic, it weighs heavily in "Invisible War", a documentary on Netflix about the armed forces and sexual assault (on both men and women). It's a hard but good watch for those interested.
#77
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
I think there's SOME truth to the idea of rape culture. Not to the point that every guy in society thinks it's okay, but there are certainly some that do. I think the objectification of women in media plays a heavy role in this, for example. If they're viewed and treated as objects, then that's all that sexual offenders will view them as. They see them as a thing, not a person who would have severe psychological issues as a result of the abuse. Hell, there are women who can't even play Xbox Live because of the kind of treatment they receive from other players. Those players are not being well-educated in how to treat other people, most especially women, because of the media that they're fed on a daily basis.
And as Espy said, a lot of this has to do with the lack of a solid sex education in schools. It's not just about teaching them where to stick what where, but of the consequences and teaching an understanding that sex should be mutually consensual.
As far as a patriarchal society, I...actually partly believe there is. Partly. Our culture is generally dominated by white males. Is it prevalent like that everywhere? No, of course not. But in general, I think it's true. You look at the big kerfuffle that occurred last year involving the vote in Texas and abortion clinics. There was a woman senator who actually said something along the lines of "Mr. Speaker, why is it that a woman is not heard in these arguments?" I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the point stands that the majority of the people voting on the issue were men.
That's about all I can think of to say about the subject. I'm not very good with discussions/arguments because I never know what to really say about it or especially how to reply to someone's response.
And as Espy said, a lot of this has to do with the lack of a solid sex education in schools. It's not just about teaching them where to stick what where, but of the consequences and teaching an understanding that sex should be mutually consensual.
As far as a patriarchal society, I...actually partly believe there is. Partly. Our culture is generally dominated by white males. Is it prevalent like that everywhere? No, of course not. But in general, I think it's true. You look at the big kerfuffle that occurred last year involving the vote in Texas and abortion clinics. There was a woman senator who actually said something along the lines of "Mr. Speaker, why is it that a woman is not heard in these arguments?" I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the point stands that the majority of the people voting on the issue were men.
That's about all I can think of to say about the subject. I'm not very good with discussions/arguments because I never know what to really say about it or especially how to reply to someone's response.
#78
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I don't think any definition of rape culture I've ever read has asserted this is true.Not to the point that every guy in society thinks it's okay,
#79
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
No, but some treat it as if it's the vast majority in society.I don't think any definition of rape culture I've ever read has asserted this is true.
#80
Espy
Espy
You aren't the first person here to say thats so clearly that view is out there. I guess I would offer this: like with any discussion of political/religious/etc things I would urge folks to try and avoid painting the majority with the brush created by the radical fringe. It's upsetting to hear that radical fringe, I understand, but when we go right to that we end up shutting down discussion with people who have much more moderated and nuanced views.No, but some treat it as if it's the vast majority in society.
#81
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
If it isn't the vast majority, then why is it so prevalent? Why is it that if a woman is raped she is guilty until proven innocent? Her assailants are excused from real responsibility because they are nice, upstanding citizens according to their peers and family? I'm sorry, Nick, but you aren't female. You don't see things from my point of view even though you are a more progressive thinking man who would never want this for anyone.
I was raped when I was 15. By my boyfriend. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't on drugs. I tried to fight back, but I was too hysterical to get it together. Did I tell anyone? No. Because all I ever heard in discussions between family and friends was that it was my fault. I must have wanted it. I must have secretly enjoyed it. I probably said no, but meant yes. It was the way I dressed (because jeans and t-shirt is totally provocative). I should have fought harder. I'm not going into details of what actually happened, but needless to say I was ashamed that I allowed this to happen to me. It was my fault according to everything I had ever been told.
Look around at what we find acceptable in the media and online. Go to some humor sites. Hell, if this was last year I'd tell you just go on Facebook and look at a few pages that tell young men how to handle their women. One of the most popular teen book series (and later a movie series) had a sex scene where the teenage girl is unconscious during the act. Girls thought of this as romantic! People defend it as not being rape! It is not OK! It is not OK for women to be seen as conquests at any cost. To be seen as a receptacle who should comply with the superior male. Just because you and people you associate with would never think this way and believe there is no evidence of this being a major part of every day society doesn't mean the messages aren't out there for people of both sexes, young and older, to see or hear and integrate into their way of thinking. Believe me, it is there. Maybe you choose to be blind to it because it doesn't affect you. Maybe you don't give it much thought because it's guys being idiots. But it is there.
I was raped when I was 15. By my boyfriend. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't on drugs. I tried to fight back, but I was too hysterical to get it together. Did I tell anyone? No. Because all I ever heard in discussions between family and friends was that it was my fault. I must have wanted it. I must have secretly enjoyed it. I probably said no, but meant yes. It was the way I dressed (because jeans and t-shirt is totally provocative). I should have fought harder. I'm not going into details of what actually happened, but needless to say I was ashamed that I allowed this to happen to me. It was my fault according to everything I had ever been told.
Look around at what we find acceptable in the media and online. Go to some humor sites. Hell, if this was last year I'd tell you just go on Facebook and look at a few pages that tell young men how to handle their women. One of the most popular teen book series (and later a movie series) had a sex scene where the teenage girl is unconscious during the act. Girls thought of this as romantic! People defend it as not being rape! It is not OK! It is not OK for women to be seen as conquests at any cost. To be seen as a receptacle who should comply with the superior male. Just because you and people you associate with would never think this way and believe there is no evidence of this being a major part of every day society doesn't mean the messages aren't out there for people of both sexes, young and older, to see or hear and integrate into their way of thinking. Believe me, it is there. Maybe you choose to be blind to it because it doesn't affect you. Maybe you don't give it much thought because it's guys being idiots. But it is there.
#82
Dei
Dei
Things that also appall me: The amount of songs that glorify rape that I hear on the radio. It had died down some, but maybe that is just because I listen to the radio less and less.
#83
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
The number one hit song of the year 2013 was a... I can't even call it a metphor, it's about a guy raping a girl. And one of the grossest music videos I've ever seen. Robin Thicke has made millions of dollars making rape look glossy and cool.Things that also appall me: The amount of songs that glorify rape that I hear on the radio. It had died down some, but maybe that is just because I listen to the radio less and less.
#84
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
I have NEVER in my life EVER assumed a woman was guilty until proven innocent. When those asshole high school football players raped that girl, I wasn't like some people who thought "Oh, those poor boys." No, I wanted justice or even revenge against them. I'm a huge proponent for equality for women's rights and equality in general. The fact that I'm getting upset just saying these things is why I don't enjoy getting involved in these debates: because the first part of your post feels incredibly attacking and judgemental upon me. Which is ironic, I know, because that's essentially how rape culture works, as well. But personally, I can't fathom how anyone could take the situation like that girl that was raped by the high schoolers and then FURTHER harass her. My point is, I give it plenty of thought. My blood boils any time I hear of anyone being mistreated or being treated as an unequel for no reason. I certainly don't appreciate the assumptive tone you've put upon me when I've been a huge supporter of equality.
And I think the reason it's so prevalent is because of the media and all the examples you mentioned. There's also the general internet culture, who think it's okay to say a plethora of horrible things about women, race, and the LGBT community. Twilight is a huge example of rape culture, for example, as you pointed out. No one can argue that popular media is - and has been for a long time - been primarily aimed a white, straight, male audience. If it's all over the popular media - even in commercials - then people start to buy into the idea that women are not equal.
I am, however, sorry that you were the victim of rape. Sadly, I know of several female friends who have been on receiving end of sexual abuse and have heard far too many other stories of women falling into the category of "victim blamed."
And I think the reason it's so prevalent is because of the media and all the examples you mentioned. There's also the general internet culture, who think it's okay to say a plethora of horrible things about women, race, and the LGBT community. Twilight is a huge example of rape culture, for example, as you pointed out. No one can argue that popular media is - and has been for a long time - been primarily aimed a white, straight, male audience. If it's all over the popular media - even in commercials - then people start to buy into the idea that women are not equal.
I am, however, sorry that you were the victim of rape. Sadly, I know of several female friends who have been on receiving end of sexual abuse and have heard far too many other stories of women falling into the category of "victim blamed."
#85
figmentPez
There are a lot of similarities between the public perception of an alcoholic and a rapist. People have in their mind that an alcoholic is someone who has ceased to function in life. Alcoholics are people living on the street, who beat their wives, or show up drunk to work. Alcoholics like <redacted>, who never let it affect his work, who had enough charm and influence to avoid any drunk driving charges (and enough luck to never have anything serious happen), don't get slapped with the label publicly. His liver never failed, so his doctors didn't even ask about his drinking habits. His GP shocked when <redacted>'s family asked them to approach him about his drinking. No one wants to take a successful, caring, generous, intelligent, etc. person and say that person is an alcoholic.
The issue of rape is in a worse state than our reaction to alcohol abuse. In general, there is a lot more rationalization of predatory sexual behavior and sexual abuse/assault, than there is rationalization of alcohol abuse, but I hope you can see the parallels. There are a lot of mixed messages in our society about what is acceptable use of alcohol. We don't like to talk about where the line is between someone who gets drunk regularly, and someone who is an alcoholic. Well, sure, they go out and get shitfaced every Friday and Saturday, but they never let it get in the way of their work, and they're really nice when they're drunk; there's no way they're an alcoholic, even if they avoid any event where they can't be drinking... Similarly, as a society, we don't like to talk about consent, and at what point being forward becomes sexual assault.
figmentPez
Because the silent majority doesn't want to deal with it. Drunk driving and alcoholism are also prevalent, and all the rationalized excuses that permit both of those. Yet there isn't a majority of people who approve of either, there's just a very large number of people who don't want to, or don't know how to, deal with them, or have varying degrees of problematic viewpoints that aren't black and white wrong. There are lots of anti-drunk driving campaigns, very few people would say that people should be allowed to drive drunk, and probably fewer still who would say that it's socially acceptable to be an alcoholic. However, people want to drink, and don't want to deal with the difficult problems of admitting that there comes a point where people are drinking too much. Even after decades of public awareness campaigns, it's still common for people to drive when they're impaired.If it isn't the vast majority, then why is it so prevalent?
There are a lot of similarities between the public perception of an alcoholic and a rapist. People have in their mind that an alcoholic is someone who has ceased to function in life. Alcoholics are people living on the street, who beat their wives, or show up drunk to work. Alcoholics like <redacted>, who never let it affect his work, who had enough charm and influence to avoid any drunk driving charges (and enough luck to never have anything serious happen), don't get slapped with the label publicly. His liver never failed, so his doctors didn't even ask about his drinking habits. His GP shocked when <redacted>'s family asked them to approach him about his drinking. No one wants to take a successful, caring, generous, intelligent, etc. person and say that person is an alcoholic.
The issue of rape is in a worse state than our reaction to alcohol abuse. In general, there is a lot more rationalization of predatory sexual behavior and sexual abuse/assault, than there is rationalization of alcohol abuse, but I hope you can see the parallels. There are a lot of mixed messages in our society about what is acceptable use of alcohol. We don't like to talk about where the line is between someone who gets drunk regularly, and someone who is an alcoholic. Well, sure, they go out and get shitfaced every Friday and Saturday, but they never let it get in the way of their work, and they're really nice when they're drunk; there's no way they're an alcoholic, even if they avoid any event where they can't be drinking... Similarly, as a society, we don't like to talk about consent, and at what point being forward becomes sexual assault.
#86
Hailey Knight
I honestly don't think I could handle it. The shit my wife tells me about when she comes home some days is disgusting, and I know the only reason I don't see it when I'm out with her is because I have a dick, so suddenly she's respected for being mine. Doesn't matter that I'm a geek, that I'm scrawny, that I've thrown one punch in my life--I'm a guy and that causes a world of different treatment.
No matter how empathetic one of us is, we will not see the world as it is for women because our presence immediately alters it.
Hailey Knight
It's prevalent because while most people agree that the word rape is bad, there are a number of guys willing to do things that are rape, so long as it isn't called rape. Ask them if they'd rape a woman, they'll say no. But what they're hearing is, would you jump out of the bushes in a ski mask and force yourself on a stranger. What isn't being asked is, would you drug another person's drink? Would you hold your wife/girlfriend/friend in bed even when she says no? There are dozens of scenarios where those same guys would say yes, because they don't think of those situations as rape. They don't know to respect other human beings. This is why we get lawmakers talking about "legitimate rape" bullshit.If it isn't the vast majority, then why is it so prevalent? Why is it that if a woman is raped she is guilty until proven innocent? Her assailants are excused from real responsibility because they are nice, upstanding citizens according to their peers and family?
A thing most men don't realize and that I didn't even come to understand until a couple years ago, but it's scary going outside as a woman. You're taught to be wary, you're taught to be on-guard, you're taught not to trust anyone, you're taught to make sure you won't be the target. The stress alone is abominable, let alone actually having to deal with those who try making you a target. And if something happens to you? You slipped up. You made a mistake. You wore the wrong outfit. You walked the wrong way. You said the wrong thing. All the fingers will be pointing at you for the bad thing you didn't prevent.I'm sorry, Nick, but you aren't female. You don't see things from my point of view even though you are a more progressive thinking man who would never want this for anyone.
I honestly don't think I could handle it. The shit my wife tells me about when she comes home some days is disgusting, and I know the only reason I don't see it when I'm out with her is because I have a dick, so suddenly she's respected for being mine. Doesn't matter that I'm a geek, that I'm scrawny, that I've thrown one punch in my life--I'm a guy and that causes a world of different treatment.
No matter how empathetic one of us is, we will not see the world as it is for women because our presence immediately alters it.
#87
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
I didn't mean for my post to come across as a personal attack or being judgemental of you. However, I admit I was hoping to provoke you to consider things from a wider perspective. This is not about Nick's beliefs, values, and morals. It is about society and what is acceptable in our culture. The large picture. If this was the world according to Nick I am sure it would be a much nicer place where justice is carried out swiftly and wrongs are righted. However, our society as a whole is not like that. While you personally would not assume a woman is guilty until proven innocent, there are plenty of people (both make and female) in our world who would say she's lying, question her morals, and focus on her being in the wrong. Again, YOU wouldn't...but what we are told in the media including entertainment, by our leaders, the justice system, and in our communities is that the assailant is not responsible for his actions. It's easier to blame the victim. It's even easier to be a bystander. That all plays a large part in how rape culture is able to continue. It's not you, Nick. It's many other people in the world.[DOUBLEPOST=1391980252,1391979821][/DOUBLEPOST]I have NEVER in my life EVER assumed a woman was guilty until proven innocent. When those asshole high school football players raped that girl, I wasn't like some people who thought "Oh, those poor boys." No, I wanted justice or even revenge against them. I'm a huge proponent for equality for women's rights and equality in general. The fact that I'm getting upset just saying these things is why I don't enjoy getting involved in these debates: because the first part of your post feels incredibly attacking and judgemental upon me. Which is ironic, I know, because that's essentially how rape culture works, as well. But personally, I can't fathom how anyone could take the situation like that girl that was raped by the high schoolers and then FURTHER harass her. My point is, I give it plenty of thought. My blood boils any time I hear of anyone being mistreated or being treated as an unequel for no reason. I certainly don't appreciate the assumptive tone you've put upon me when I've been a huge supporter of equality.
I hardly bother with the radio. My kids and I listen to Pandora a lot. At least I can ban songs that I don't think are appropriate and they still get to listen to some current music, plus any other genre we're in the mood for.Things that also appall me: The amount of songs that glorify rape that I hear on the radio. It had died down some, but maybe that is just because I listen to the radio less and less.
#88
figmentPez
I will not argue that women shouldn't be afraid or that they should. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I know women who are, and I know those who are not. (Well, I know women who are less afraid of walking down the street at night than I am, and I'm not particularly afraid of being a victim. I don't know anyone who is completely without fear of something bad happening.) I'm honestly asking if men should be taught to be cautious and afraid as well.
figmentPez
I hope I can state this in a way that reflects that it is an honest question of mine, but here goes: Statistically a man is more likely to be a victim of violent crime than a woman is to be a victim of violent crime (including in both that sexual assault is a violent crime). So, why are women, in general, taught to walk around in fear, while men, in general, told to be confident? I know that the simple answer is that we treat the genders differently, but I'm kind of asking about what should be, not what is. Should men walk around as afraid of being robbed at gunpoint, or outright shot, as women are of being sexually assaulted? Is the difference that women are viewed as at fault somehow, and lack that sympathy? If so, what does that say about the 1.2 million men raped in 2010, who aren't even recognized as rape victims by any statistics? 80% of those men knew their attacker, yet no one teaches men to be afraid of the women in their lives, the way women are increasingly being taught to be wary of the men they know. Should we be teaching men to be as cautious around people they know as women are of their social circles? Should men be taking self-defense classes, and walking around with cans of mace on their keychains? Should men avoid being alone with a women, even a friend, out of fear that she might turn out to be a rapist? If the answer to these is that men shouldn't fear because they are bigger and stronger, then isn't that victim blaming for the men who were raped?A thing most men don't realize and that I didn't even come to understand until a couple years ago, but it's scary going outside as a woman. You're taught to be wary, you're taught to be on-guard, you're taught not to trust anyone, you're taught to make sure you won't be the target. The stress alone is abominable, let alone actually having to deal with those who try making you a target. And if something happens to you? You slipped up. You made a mistake. You wore the wrong outfit. You walked the wrong way. You said the wrong thing. All the fingers will be pointing at you for the bad thing you didn't prevent.
I will not argue that women shouldn't be afraid or that they should. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I know women who are, and I know those who are not. (Well, I know women who are less afraid of walking down the street at night than I am, and I'm not particularly afraid of being a victim. I don't know anyone who is completely without fear of something bad happening.) I'm honestly asking if men should be taught to be cautious and afraid as well.
#89
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
What it should be is that people are taught not to commit violent crimes. Then no one would have to worry about being afraid and cautious.
#90
figmentPez
figmentPez
That would be nice, but people have been taught that theft and murder are wrong for a very long time, and yet both of those still occur on a regular basis. I think I've read that violent crime rates have been on an overall downward trend, but it does not seem to me that there will be an end to crime any time soon. What do we do in the meanwhile?What it should be is that people are taught not to commit violent crimes. Then no one would have to worry about being afraid and cautious.
#91
Espy
I think THAT kind of thinking is rape culture. It says, "If a woman is walking down that street by herself well, what did she think was going to happen?". It says, "Oh well, she shouldn't have been out drinking, what did she think would happen?" or the old standby for good old boys all over, "did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it!" How about she just wanted to walk down the street without being assaulted? Or have a drink without being assaulted? Or wear her freaking clothes without being assaulted?
I mean, come on.
And as for the men, when you have commanders and buddies who do everything they can to protect each other whenever a sexual assault occurs, what other message are you sending other than "this is ok"? It's insane.
Espy
The Invisible War really details the prevention stuff much of military does (and it was what my wife had experienced as well) and guess what? It's all for women and it's all about how they can avoid all the people around them who are willing to rape them if given the chance. Nary a word about men just NOT raping women. I'm not saying don't be cautious or anything, no one is saying that (because inevitably someone will say it's good advice and it IS), but for pets sake how about we focus on the population causing the problem here, just a little bit?What it should be is that people are taught not to commit violent crimes. Then no one would have to worry about being afraid and cautious.
I think THAT kind of thinking is rape culture. It says, "If a woman is walking down that street by herself well, what did she think was going to happen?". It says, "Oh well, she shouldn't have been out drinking, what did she think would happen?" or the old standby for good old boys all over, "did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it!" How about she just wanted to walk down the street without being assaulted? Or have a drink without being assaulted? Or wear her freaking clothes without being assaulted?
I mean, come on.
And as for the men, when you have commanders and buddies who do everything they can to protect each other whenever a sexual assault occurs, what other message are you sending other than "this is ok"? It's insane.
#92
figmentPez
Just like telling people "don't be an alcoholic" doesn't really do much unless you teach people that being dependent on alcohol is a far broader category than "that homeless guy who is drinking Sterno to get drunk". Confronting drunk driving is more than just saying "don't drive drunk" because many people would respond that they'd never get behind a wheel if they were drunk, they know their limits, and they're just a little tipsy. Just as public awareness of alcohol issues has to teach about responsible drinking, and that being impaired happens well before being falling down drunk, so does combating sexual assault need to teach about consent, and that rape is far more than just jumping out of bushes. (It also needs to be about more than just "men need to stop raping" because both genders commit sexual assault, and both genders help in covering it up.)
The reason we need to teach consent is that we're not going to stop the rapist who jumps out of the bushes to attack a woman he doesn't know. He knows what he's doing is wrong, and he's going to do it anyway because he is a criminal, and has issues that no public awareness campaign can fix. The alcoholic that has had his license revoked and still gets falling down drunk and then drives home knows that what he's doing is wrong, he's been in court and told that it's wrong. Drunk driving campaigns aren't about stopping that guy. The hope for broad change comes from reaching those who are in what they think is a grey area, and reaching them is going to take teaching about what responsible sexuality is. If you want to teach people "don't cross the line", you have first teach them where the line is.
figmentPez
I'm all for teaching to not rape, as long as it's understood that it's a lot more complicated than:The Invisible War really details the prevention stuff much of military does (and it was what my wife had experienced as well) and guess what? It's all for women and it's all about how they can avoid all the people around them who are willing to rape them if given the chance. Nary a word about men just NOT raping women. I'm not saying don't be cautious or anything, no one is saying that (because inevitably someone will say it's good advice and it IS), but for pets sake how about we focus on the population causing the problem here, just a little bit?
I think THAT kind of thinking is rape culture. It says, "If a woman is walking down that street by herself well, what did she think was going to happen?". It says, "Oh well, she shouldn't have been out drinking, what did she think would happen?" or the old standby for good old boys all over, "did you see what she was wearing? She was asking for it!" How about she just wanted to walk down the street without being assaulted? Or have a drink without being assaulted? Or wear her freaking clothes without being assaulted?
I mean, come on.
And as for the men, when you have commanders and buddies who do everything they can to protect each other whenever a sexual assault occurs, what other message are you sending other than "this is ok"? It's insane.
Just like telling people "don't be an alcoholic" doesn't really do much unless you teach people that being dependent on alcohol is a far broader category than "that homeless guy who is drinking Sterno to get drunk". Confronting drunk driving is more than just saying "don't drive drunk" because many people would respond that they'd never get behind a wheel if they were drunk, they know their limits, and they're just a little tipsy. Just as public awareness of alcohol issues has to teach about responsible drinking, and that being impaired happens well before being falling down drunk, so does combating sexual assault need to teach about consent, and that rape is far more than just jumping out of bushes. (It also needs to be about more than just "men need to stop raping" because both genders commit sexual assault, and both genders help in covering it up.)
The reason we need to teach consent is that we're not going to stop the rapist who jumps out of the bushes to attack a woman he doesn't know. He knows what he's doing is wrong, and he's going to do it anyway because he is a criminal, and has issues that no public awareness campaign can fix. The alcoholic that has had his license revoked and still gets falling down drunk and then drives home knows that what he's doing is wrong, he's been in court and told that it's wrong. Drunk driving campaigns aren't about stopping that guy. The hope for broad change comes from reaching those who are in what they think is a grey area, and reaching them is going to take teaching about what responsible sexuality is. If you want to teach people "don't cross the line", you have first teach them where the line is.
#93
Espy
Espy
Thats really all you needed to write.I'm all for teaching to not rape
#94
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
Can we, uh. Not post image macros about kids from children's cartoons getting raped?
#95
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
Espy, I have seen the Navy's Sexual Assault Prevention material. It is all aimed at women and what they should do to prevent assault. It does not address that rape is wrong. For anyone. And when I say anyone, I mean it also does not address men who are sexually assaulted in the military. That's swept under the carpet. I've never seen rape prevention aimed at the male victim. It's always assumed to be a male who rapes a female. I've read accounts where a male was raped by a female and the victim's stories were not taken seriously because - "dude, how does a woman rape a man? C'mon bro. You know you wanted her to do it. Men can't get an erection without being attracted to the other person, you know." To me it is another way that our culture does not want to recognize uncomfortable issues that should be and need to be dealt with.
#96
figmentPez
figmentPez
I disagree, because if we're having to discuss why rape gets swept under the rug so often, if the majority of people don't think rape is okay, then it's also the case that we don't really understand why it's necessary to teach more than just "don't rape".Thats really all you needed to write.
#97
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
I think a related problem is gender inequality. Women are not as valued as men. That is a much bigger cultural and societal issue. In my point of view it all boils down to the perception of powerful v. powerless.I disagree, because if we're having to discuss why rape gets swept under the rug so often, if the majority of people don't think rape is okay, then it's also the case that we don't really understand why it's necessary to teach more than just "don't rape".
#98
PatrThom
"I can't help myself, it's because of my (<gender>/<race>/<religion>) that I act this way!"
These are the same people who throw your expensive custom controller at the screen when they're over to game at your place because "...the pad is all slippery!"
--Patrick
PatrThom
I think a related problem is that people will try harder to blame someone/thing else for their actions than they will to avoid doing that action in the first place.I think a related problem is gender inequality.
"I can't help myself, it's because of my (<gender>/<race>/<religion>) that I act this way!"
These are the same people who throw your expensive custom controller at the screen when they're over to game at your place because "...the pad is all slippery!"
--Patrick
#99
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
Go on. How does this relate to rape again?I think a related problem is that people will try harder to blame someone/thing else for their actions than they will to avoid doing that action in the first place.
"I can't help myself, it's because of my (<gender>/<race>/<religion>) that I act this way!"
These are the same people who throw your expensive custom controller at the screen when they're over to game at your place because "...the pad is all slippery!"
--Patrick
#100
Espy
Espy
I guess I had assumed you had read enough of my views in this thread by now to assume that no one was advocating for a 3 second class called, "thanks for being here, don't rape, goodnight".I disagree, because if we're having to discuss why rape gets swept under the rug so often, if the majority of people don't think rape is okay, then it's also the case that we don't really understand why it's necessary to teach more than just "don't rape".
#101
figmentPez
figmentPez
True, I wouldn't have assumed that you would settle for something so ineffective, but there's also people reading this thread besides you and I, or even the other people posting.I guess I had assumed you had read enough of my views in this thread by now to assume that no one was advocating for a 3 second class called, "thanks for being here, don't rape, goodnight".
#102
PatrThom
One can convince one's self that even though <thing*> is bad, THIS time, it will be done because <they deserve it>/<I deserve it>/<nobody will know>/<it will be so much fun!>/<I can totally handle it>/<whatever>.
Then, once called out about it, a monumental effort will be made to offload the blame onto something/someone else rather than to accept that the decision to go ahead was made internally, rather than being dictated by external factors.
--Patrick
*Could be anything. Rape, murder, embezzlement, adultery, you name it.
PatrThom
For clarification, then.Go on. How does this relate to rape again?
One can convince one's self that even though <thing*> is bad, THIS time, it will be done because <they deserve it>/<I deserve it>/<nobody will know>/<it will be so much fun!>/<I can totally handle it>/<whatever>.
Then, once called out about it, a monumental effort will be made to offload the blame onto something/someone else rather than to accept that the decision to go ahead was made internally, rather than being dictated by external factors.
--Patrick
*Could be anything. Rape, murder, embezzlement, adultery, you name it.
#103
WasabiPoptart
Rape is bad. Rather than tackling the issue from the stance that no one should commit rape the blame is place on the victim. She was wearing the wrong clothes, she had too much to drink, she was being a tease...all external factors which excuse the rapist's actions.
WasabiPoptart
But isn't that what is already happening?For clarification, then.
One can convince one's self that even though <thing*> is bad, THIS time, it will be done because <they deserve it>/<I deserve it>/<nobody will know>/<it will be so much fun!>/<I can totally handle it>/<whatever>.
Then, once called out about it, a monumental effort will be made to offload the blame onto something/someone else rather than to accept that the decision to go ahead was made internally, rather than being dictated by external factors.
--Patrick
*Could be anything. Rape, murder, embezzlement, adultery, you name it.
Rape is bad. Rather than tackling the issue from the stance that no one should commit rape the blame is place on the victim. She was wearing the wrong clothes, she had too much to drink, she was being a tease...all external factors which excuse the rapist's actions.
#104
Hailey Knight
Half your posts keep coming down to "But what about the men?" No one said in this thread said men aren't victims of violent sex crimes, but you yourself posted statistics of how much more heavily skewed the ratio is against women. We're also talking about a cultural view that seems prevalent that women are things, not people. And that's a problem that may tie in with the high rate of sexual violence against women. But yeah, it also happens to men. No one said otherwise. Since no one denied that, it comes up as bizarre that you keep waving that banner.
I had typed up something involving two bad experiences of mine and the unwanted sexual attention of two larger, stronger men, but I don't want what I say about my life coming back to bite me in the ass when I piss off the wrong person here on some future date, in this thread or another, so I'm not going there. Props to Wasabi; I don't have her guts.
Hailey Knight
What the hell are you talking about? I was saying that's what happens today and that's the reaction received because of the sexually hostile environment that exists out in the world. That is NOT how it should be. It's not a matter of "Well, men should get to be afraid to and not be judged for it."I hope I can state this in a way that reflects that it is an honest question of mine, but here goes: Statistically a man is more likely to be a victim of violent crime than a woman is to be a victim of violent crime (including in both that sexual assault is a violent crime). So, why are women, in general, taught to walk around in fear, while men, in general, told to be confident? I know that the simple answer is that we treat the genders differently, but I'm kind of asking about what should be, not what is. Should men walk around as afraid of being robbed at gunpoint, or outright shot, as women are of being sexually assaulted? Is the difference that women are viewed as at fault somehow, and lack that sympathy? If so, what does that say about the 1.2 million men raped in 2010, who aren't even recognized as rape victims by any statistics? 80% of those men knew their attacker, yet no one teaches men to be afraid of the women in their lives, the way women are increasingly being taught to be wary of the men they know. Should we be teaching men to be as cautious around people they know as women are of their social circles? Should men be taking self-defense classes, and walking around with cans of mace on their keychains? Should men avoid being alone with a women, even a friend, out of fear that she might turn out to be a rapist? If the answer to these is that men shouldn't fear because they are bigger and stronger, then isn't that victim blaming for the men who were raped?
I will not argue that women shouldn't be afraid or that they should. I honestly don't know the answer to that. I know women who are, and I know those who are not. (Well, I know women who are less afraid of walking down the street at night than I am, and I'm not particularly afraid of being a victim. I don't know anyone who is completely without fear of something bad happening.) I'm honestly asking if men should be taught to be cautious and afraid as well.
Half your posts keep coming down to "But what about the men?" No one said in this thread said men aren't victims of violent sex crimes, but you yourself posted statistics of how much more heavily skewed the ratio is against women. We're also talking about a cultural view that seems prevalent that women are things, not people. And that's a problem that may tie in with the high rate of sexual violence against women. But yeah, it also happens to men. No one said otherwise. Since no one denied that, it comes up as bizarre that you keep waving that banner.
I had typed up something involving two bad experiences of mine and the unwanted sexual attention of two larger, stronger men, but I don't want what I say about my life coming back to bite me in the ass when I piss off the wrong person here on some future date, in this thread or another, so I'm not going there. Props to Wasabi; I don't have her guts.
#105
Espy
Espy
I think thats most of us.Props to Wasabi; I don't have her guts.
#106
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
You guys are making me tear up. I might not have had the guts if it wasn't for people in this thread that I knew would be supportive and compassionate.
#107
figmentPez
Yes, I do bring it back to "What about the men?" Because articles like the one linked in the original post leave out millions of male victims. If we're going to talk about rape culture, I would prefer to talk about all rape victims. Especially since the concept seems to be "teach men not to rape". President Obama gave an address on sexual assault, and his statement was "We’ve especially got to teach young men to show women the respect they deserve. I want every young man in America to know that real men don’t hurt women." The rhetoric on this subject is heavily biased towards painting men as the aggressors and women as the victims. When upwards of 40% of the rapists in 2010 were women, and nearly equal numbers of men and women commit sexual assault, I don't think it is at all fair to focus on men as the perpetrators.
Saying that "no one denied that men are victims" is like having a conversation about heart attacks focusing solely on men, their symptoms, their risks, and then getting upset when someone tries to include female victims and claiming "well, no one is denying that women have heart attacks" before going right back to talking about how men live in fear of heart disease. Except, ignoring women's heart attacks is pretty much what happened for many years. There's still need for public awareness teaching women how to recognize the signs of a heart attack.
figmentPez
There is a hostile environment in the world, period. I'm trying to ask why women are expected to live in a state of fear while men are not. It's an honest question. If I'm going out into the world and I'm in danger, what is the difference weather that danger is sexual or not?What the hell are you talking about? I was saying that's what happens today and that's the reaction received because of the sexually hostile environment that exists out in the world. That is NOT how it should be. It's not a matter of "Well, men should get to be afraid to and not be judged for it."
Except you just did deny it. You said the ratio was heavily skewed to women being the victims of sexual violence, but that's not the case. In 2010 there were nearly equal numbers of male and female rape victims. I'm not sure how you can construe that as "heavily skewed". Moreover, even for long term statistics, the number of male victims isn't so disparate as to be able to dismiss men, and male rape victims are horrendously underepresented in most statistics due to the fact that they don't even get recognized as rape victims most of the time. Further more the odds are actually skewed towards men being more likely to be victims of violent crime in general, which is an important thing to note when talking about the source and cause of fear.Half your posts keep coming down to "But what about the men?" No one said in this thread said men aren't victims of violent sex crimes, but you yourself posted statistics of how much more heavily skewed the ratio is against women. We're also talking about a cultural view that seems prevalent that women are things, not people. And that's a problem that may tie in with the high rate of sexual violence against women. But yeah, it also happens to men. No one said otherwise. Since no one denied that, it comes up as bizarre that you keep waving that banner.
Yes, I do bring it back to "What about the men?" Because articles like the one linked in the original post leave out millions of male victims. If we're going to talk about rape culture, I would prefer to talk about all rape victims. Especially since the concept seems to be "teach men not to rape". President Obama gave an address on sexual assault, and his statement was "We’ve especially got to teach young men to show women the respect they deserve. I want every young man in America to know that real men don’t hurt women." The rhetoric on this subject is heavily biased towards painting men as the aggressors and women as the victims. When upwards of 40% of the rapists in 2010 were women, and nearly equal numbers of men and women commit sexual assault, I don't think it is at all fair to focus on men as the perpetrators.
Saying that "no one denied that men are victims" is like having a conversation about heart attacks focusing solely on men, their symptoms, their risks, and then getting upset when someone tries to include female victims and claiming "well, no one is denying that women have heart attacks" before going right back to talking about how men live in fear of heart disease. Except, ignoring women's heart attacks is pretty much what happened for many years. There's still need for public awareness teaching women how to recognize the signs of a heart attack.
#108
Charlie Don't Surf
I uh. Think this entire post is [citation needed]
Charlie Don't Surf
I uh. Think this entire post is [citation needed]
#109
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
According to RAINN, Pez, your statistics for rape are wrong.
https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
1 in 6 women compared to 1 in 33 men is a big difference.
Also: "Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives, according to a 2010 survey by the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which used a broader definition (than the FBI)."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/07/men-as-rape-victims-_n_1191154.html
https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
1 in 6 women compared to 1 in 33 men is a big difference.
Also: "Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives, according to a 2010 survey by the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which used a broader definition (than the FBI)."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/07/men-as-rape-victims-_n_1191154.html
#110
Dei
Dei
The statistics get skewed because of every point Pez had already made in this thread. I agree that there are a lot of cases of unreported male rape. The amount of friends I had in high school who legitimately believed that they could choose not to have an erection continues to baffle me to this day, considering the sheer amount of uncontrolled stiffies going on in that environment. Women also have a large amount of rapes going un reported, but proportionally I'm pretty sure men are shamed as much if not more about it precisely because of the same cultural stigmas.
#111
figmentPez
Female rape victims: 1,270,000
Males "made to penetrate": 1,267,000
Looking at the lifetime statistics, there's more of a disparity, with only 1 in 16 men being rape victims (when we include "made to penetrate") but given that this is the very first time that such statistics have even been gathered, I have to wonder why the 12 month statistics are so at odds with the lifetime. Either 2010 was a really bad year for men being raped, men are being raped in increasing numbers as time goes on, or there are lot of previous victims who have rationalized away what happened to them over the course of time. (My money is on the last one.)
As for men and women committing sexual assault at equal rates, I already cited my source for that. Here it is again, "recent research published in the journal JAMA Pediatrics... found that males and females carried out sexual violence at strikingly similar rates after the age of 18 -- 52% of males and 48% of females."
figmentPez
If you'd actually been reading this thread, you'd know that I'd already cited my sources for all of this. I didn't think I needed to again.I uh. Think this entire post is [citation needed]
As I said, only men who are are anally violated, or orally violated by genitals, are counted in those rape statistics. Up until 2010 when the NISVS was conducted (and the study was only released in 2013) no national study even asked about men who were "made to penetrate". Men who were forced to insert their penis into someone else's body, men who were forced to have sex against their will, are not counted as rape victims in most statistics, including those from the NISVS and from RAINN. The statistics from the CDC for the year of 2010 are as follows:According to RAINN, Pez, your statistics for rape are wrong.
https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
1 in 6 women compared to 1 in 33 men is a big difference.
Female rape victims: 1,270,000
Males "made to penetrate": 1,267,000
Looking at the lifetime statistics, there's more of a disparity, with only 1 in 16 men being rape victims (when we include "made to penetrate") but given that this is the very first time that such statistics have even been gathered, I have to wonder why the 12 month statistics are so at odds with the lifetime. Either 2010 was a really bad year for men being raped, men are being raped in increasing numbers as time goes on, or there are lot of previous victims who have rationalized away what happened to them over the course of time. (My money is on the last one.)
As for men and women committing sexual assault at equal rates, I already cited my source for that. Here it is again, "recent research published in the journal JAMA Pediatrics... found that males and females carried out sexual violence at strikingly similar rates after the age of 18 -- 52% of males and 48% of females."
#112
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
(Sorry Pez I didn't see that citation earlier)
And this also presents another problem with rape culture and victim blaming because these crimes do not get reported out of fear or the belief that no one will listen or care.
And this also presents another problem with rape culture and victim blaming because these crimes do not get reported out of fear or the belief that no one will listen or care.
#113
Espy
Espy
Also, the article he linked to ACTUALLY says that 90% of rapes under the age of 18 are by males and once both sexes are 18+ they start to even out. However it's a study of 1000 kids so, take that with a grain of salt. I can't find anything else that gives similar numbers to it out there, other than saying that a large portion of assaults are by men and often occur with those under 18, so that seems to line up a little?
Either way, I'm going to need way more than just one source to stop believing pretty much every other reporting group out there that says the majority of assaults are by men. Granted, there are TONS of assaults that go unreported, so I'm totally open to the idea but really, I'm way less concerned with making sure we are "blaming" men and women equally here and more concerned about HOW we talk to kids, men, women, etc, etc, about rape. And that is we say don't rape. Don't assault. Don't have sex with someone who can't consent, etc, etc.
Or we can sit around all day and make sure we all know women are bad people too. Which seems like an odd place to settle but… go nuts I guess?
Either way, I'm going to need way more than just one source to stop believing pretty much every other reporting group out there that says the majority of assaults are by men. Granted, there are TONS of assaults that go unreported, so I'm totally open to the idea but really, I'm way less concerned with making sure we are "blaming" men and women equally here and more concerned about HOW we talk to kids, men, women, etc, etc, about rape. And that is we say don't rape. Don't assault. Don't have sex with someone who can't consent, etc, etc.
Or we can sit around all day and make sure we all know women are bad people too. Which seems like an odd place to settle but… go nuts I guess?
#114
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
I agree with this completely. The only thing I would add is that in a conversation with our kids or other young people I think we also have to emphasize that if they know someone has been assaulted or see it happening that it is also their responsibility to report it. I would say find a way to stop it, but this is not some scripted teen drama where the white knight charges in to save the victim.I'm way less concerned with making sure we are "blaming" men and women equally here and more concerned about HOW we talk to kids, men, women, etc, etc, about rape. And that is we say don't rape. Don't assault. Don't have sex with someone who can't consent, etc, etc.
#115
PatrThom
People complain about obesity, too. There's a guaranteed cure for that...eat less. But people don't want to eat less (it's uncomfortable, it has social consequences, etc) so instead we get these fad diets where you're not supposed to eat the "bad" food. When a gun is used in a murder, it often gets destroyed. Why? That gun may have caused a death, but it is not responsible for it. You were late to work because you couldn't stop playing CivIV...that's your fault, not Sid Meier's. And the dog? Let's face it, the dog is not the one responsible for sending everyone rushing out of the living room with their hands over their mouths.
This sort of deflection gets used to excuse a lot of bad behavior, and that gets to be a habit, and that's a bad_thing.
--Patrick
PatrThom
Yes, and that is the problem. Simply, if people took more responsibility for their actions, there would be less of <bad_thing> in the world.But isn't that what is already happening?
People complain about obesity, too. There's a guaranteed cure for that...eat less. But people don't want to eat less (it's uncomfortable, it has social consequences, etc) so instead we get these fad diets where you're not supposed to eat the "bad" food. When a gun is used in a murder, it often gets destroyed. Why? That gun may have caused a death, but it is not responsible for it. You were late to work because you couldn't stop playing CivIV...that's your fault, not Sid Meier's. And the dog? Let's face it, the dog is not the one responsible for sending everyone rushing out of the living room with their hands over their mouths.
This sort of deflection gets used to excuse a lot of bad behavior, and that gets to be a habit, and that's a bad_thing.
--Patrick
#116
figmentPez
figmentPez
How about the NISVS? Of those 1.2 million men "made to penetrate", 80% of those reported a lone female assailant. That means that 40%+ of rapists in 2010 were women. Is that enough for you to realize that women make up a significant number of assailants? Sure 60% is technically "the majority" but the majority of heart attack victims are male as well, should we not teach the warning signs for female heart attack victims because 60% of heart attacks happen to men?Either way, I'm going to need way more than just one source to stop believing pretty much every other reporting group out there that says the majority of assaults are by men..
I agree with this on some levels, but at the same time there is also the very strong likelihood that portraying sexual assailants as exclusively or predominantly male will only increase animosity between the sexes, and serve to reinforce the negative social stereotype that men are brutish and violent. I don't want this to be a gendered issue at all. Rape is wrong, we need to teach about communication and consent, but we should make sure to accurately talk about the issue. Part of getting accurate information out there is recognizing male victims. Just look at how many people in this thread were completely unaware of how many male rape victims are out there, but aren't even recognized as victims of rape.I'm way less concerned with making sure we are "blaming" men and women equally here and more concerned about HOW we talk to kids, men, women, etc, etc, about rape. And that is we say don't rape. Don't assault. Don't have sex with someone who can't consent, etc, etc.
#117
Hailey Knight
I know you're not oblivious to what we're discussing because you made such a big deal about people being inappropriate in the cosplay stuff back when that was a big deal. You can watch all those videos and interviews and see the comments on cosplay blogs and such, and not notice how the women in those circumstances are treated differently, and then not see how that translates over into the real world too? And then follow it up by not noticing the connection between rape culture and how women aren't being viewed as being people? Really?
Hailey Knight
I don't share your perspective on that. There's a lot of people here I trust and some I don't.You guys are making me tear up. I might not have had the guts if it wasn't for people in this thread that I knew would be supportive and compassionate.
... women aren't expected to live in a state of fear. What I said just a page back was that typically men seem unaware that many women live this way. How can someone be expected to live in a specific way that many people are oblivious is even happening? What you're saying isn't making any sense.There is a hostile environment in the world, period. I'm trying to ask why women are expected to live in a state of fear while men are not. It's an honest question.
Because that's what we're discussing in this thread. If you want to have the "why are people mean to people" thread, then by all means, start it, but we're discussing rape and the cultural attitude towards it in this thread.If I'm going out into the world and I'm in danger, what is the difference weather that danger is sexual or not?
See the above, replaced with "the all types of violent crime" thread.Further more the odds are actually skewed towards men being more likely to be victims of violent crime in general, which is an important thing to note when talking about the source and cause of fear.
Yeah, women do commit rape. Therape culture that excuses men as aggressors is the same rape culture that ignores them as victims. Women aren't the ones doing that--we're doing it to each other.Yes, I do bring it back to "What about the men?" Because articles like the one linked in the original post leave out millions of male victims. If we're going to talk about rape culture, I would prefer to talk about all rape victims. Especially since the concept seems to be "teach men not to rape". President Obama gave an address on sexual assault, and his statement was "We’ve especially got to teach young men to show women the respect they deserve. I want every young man in America to know that real men don’t hurt women." The rhetoric on this subject is heavily biased towards painting men as the aggressors and women as the victims. When upwards of 40% of the rapists in 2010 were women, and nearly equal numbers of men and women commit sexual assault, I don't think it is at all fair to focus on men as the perpetrators.
I know you're not oblivious to what we're discussing because you made such a big deal about people being inappropriate in the cosplay stuff back when that was a big deal. You can watch all those videos and interviews and see the comments on cosplay blogs and such, and not notice how the women in those circumstances are treated differently, and then not see how that translates over into the real world too? And then follow it up by not noticing the connection between rape culture and how women aren't being viewed as being people? Really?
I don't think people go out fearing their heart is going to attack them. That is an entirely different thing from being afraid of other conscious human beings.Saying that "no one denied that men are victims" is like having a conversation about heart attacks focusing solely on men, their symptoms, their risks, and then getting upset when someone tries to include female victims and claiming "well, no one is denying that women have heart attacks" before going right back to talking about how men live in fear of heart disease.
#118
Bubble181
Bubble181
I do not believe in The Patriarchy (to mix threads a bit).
Still, our sex ed in general, and practically each and every romcom or family tv series, still assume the man has top take initiative and the woman is a passive responder. In relationships in general. We are, all of us, constantly being indoctrinated with the idea that a "normal" relationship is one where the man makes the moves and the woman responds. This has been "joined" by the "empowered" or "self-assured" woman who uses sex/flirting/her looks to get ahead/her way/seduce - but that still isn't the same as the woman taking the initiative. On the contrary: it's a stereotype, even though it's of a "strong woman", that still assumes men are controlled by their genitals, and women are meant to just "guide" or "coax" men into doing things - the actual action is still for the man.
If and when you do see a woman asking out a man on a date, this is played as "special". She's "aggressive" or "odd" or whatever. A woman asking her boyfriend to marry her? I think I've seen it done once - and it was a Big Thing that he was so "weak and insecure" that he couldn't do it. It's still thought of as romantic for a man to "take the reigns" and "be in control".
This whole (im)balance of power is deeply ingrained in our society. Heck, most women will agree that, in their fantasies, the male's dominant.
We're constantly being bombarded by this way of thinking - men take the action, women may be reluctant or play "hard to get" but will come around.
Men are constantly told they need to take action, that women saying "no" may just be playing hard to get, and that women like being controlled. Women are told should play hard to get even if they want to, they're told manipulating or using men is "ok", and that, if anything goes wrong, they can't fight back. Both sides of this cultural phenomenon are horrible. Neither, obviously, excuses rape.
Another, related, problem I have in the rape debate is that most types of rape are all thrown on one big heap. There's a huge difference, to me, between "rape" and "rape". Drugging a victim to draw then into the bushes, violently abuse them, than leaving them for dead is a different crime from being a school teacher and abusing your authority to force a student into things they're not comfortable with, is a different crime from going to bars and liquoring up someone so their standards and inhibitions are lower and taking advantage of that, is different from abusing your (step/grand/adoptive)child for years on end, is a different crime from a 17 year old and a 14 year old having consensual sex, and so on.
I know, there's statutory rape, rape, rape with assault, sexual assault, and so on - but in the general population's view it's all one big thing - and since attention mostly goes to the "big" cases, the perception comes to exist that some of the "lesser" forms aren't rape and, therefore, not wrong. That is, a college boy getting a coed blind drunk and taking advantage of her doesn't consider what he's doing he same as that of someone who abducts and abuses 10 prepubescent girls for years on end before dumping their bodies in a river. For some reason, many rape white knights want us to view everything there as "the exact same crime" - and all should be punished equally, and all should be seen as the biggest scum of the earth. This causes people to think that, since A isn't B, it itsn't rape. So A is ok. Which, obviously, it is not.
I'm not saying "some forms of rape are acceptable", or "some forms of rape aren't that bad", or "we should lighten up about some types of rape" - all things I've been accused of, and I'm sure I will be again. I'm not, though, really. But the only way to get it into people's heads that all rape is bad, is by clearly outlining rape (which is hard to do) and to point out what is and isn't what. Treating a shoplifter the same as someone who robs a house and violently abuses the inhabitants is obviously stupid. I am not saying "some types of rape are only as bad as shoplifting" -any type of sexual abuse/attack/predation/etc is a million times worse. I am saying that, if we don't learn to differentiate, people will be able to convince themselves that what they're doing "isn't that". Which is BS. It is a form of that, just a different form. Which is still horrible and should still be sufficiently punished.
Still, our sex ed in general, and practically each and every romcom or family tv series, still assume the man has top take initiative and the woman is a passive responder. In relationships in general. We are, all of us, constantly being indoctrinated with the idea that a "normal" relationship is one where the man makes the moves and the woman responds. This has been "joined" by the "empowered" or "self-assured" woman who uses sex/flirting/her looks to get ahead/her way/seduce - but that still isn't the same as the woman taking the initiative. On the contrary: it's a stereotype, even though it's of a "strong woman", that still assumes men are controlled by their genitals, and women are meant to just "guide" or "coax" men into doing things - the actual action is still for the man.
If and when you do see a woman asking out a man on a date, this is played as "special". She's "aggressive" or "odd" or whatever. A woman asking her boyfriend to marry her? I think I've seen it done once - and it was a Big Thing that he was so "weak and insecure" that he couldn't do it. It's still thought of as romantic for a man to "take the reigns" and "be in control".
This whole (im)balance of power is deeply ingrained in our society. Heck, most women will agree that, in their fantasies, the male's dominant.
We're constantly being bombarded by this way of thinking - men take the action, women may be reluctant or play "hard to get" but will come around.
Men are constantly told they need to take action, that women saying "no" may just be playing hard to get, and that women like being controlled. Women are told should play hard to get even if they want to, they're told manipulating or using men is "ok", and that, if anything goes wrong, they can't fight back. Both sides of this cultural phenomenon are horrible. Neither, obviously, excuses rape.
Another, related, problem I have in the rape debate is that most types of rape are all thrown on one big heap. There's a huge difference, to me, between "rape" and "rape". Drugging a victim to draw then into the bushes, violently abuse them, than leaving them for dead is a different crime from being a school teacher and abusing your authority to force a student into things they're not comfortable with, is a different crime from going to bars and liquoring up someone so their standards and inhibitions are lower and taking advantage of that, is different from abusing your (step/grand/adoptive)child for years on end, is a different crime from a 17 year old and a 14 year old having consensual sex, and so on.
I know, there's statutory rape, rape, rape with assault, sexual assault, and so on - but in the general population's view it's all one big thing - and since attention mostly goes to the "big" cases, the perception comes to exist that some of the "lesser" forms aren't rape and, therefore, not wrong. That is, a college boy getting a coed blind drunk and taking advantage of her doesn't consider what he's doing he same as that of someone who abducts and abuses 10 prepubescent girls for years on end before dumping their bodies in a river. For some reason, many rape white knights want us to view everything there as "the exact same crime" - and all should be punished equally, and all should be seen as the biggest scum of the earth. This causes people to think that, since A isn't B, it itsn't rape. So A is ok. Which, obviously, it is not.
I'm not saying "some forms of rape are acceptable", or "some forms of rape aren't that bad", or "we should lighten up about some types of rape" - all things I've been accused of, and I'm sure I will be again. I'm not, though, really. But the only way to get it into people's heads that all rape is bad, is by clearly outlining rape (which is hard to do) and to point out what is and isn't what. Treating a shoplifter the same as someone who robs a house and violently abuses the inhabitants is obviously stupid. I am not saying "some types of rape are only as bad as shoplifting" -any type of sexual abuse/attack/predation/etc is a million times worse. I am saying that, if we don't learn to differentiate, people will be able to convince themselves that what they're doing "isn't that". Which is BS. It is a form of that, just a different form. Which is still horrible and should still be sufficiently punished.
#119
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
The patriarchy is like global warming, you can believe in it or not, but it still exists
#120
Espy
Espy
Yeah the existence of patriarchy (or matriarchy) isn't really… a… debatable thing. The amount to which is affects a culture is though.
#121
GasBandit
GasBandit
The patriarchy is like global warming, you can believe in it or not, but it still exists
Sounds a bit like religion if you ask me.Yeah the existence of patriarchy (or matriarchy) isn't really… a… debatable thing. The amount to which is affects a culture is though.
#122
Bubble181
Bubble181
Gassie, you missed an emoticon there: 
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
#123
Covar
Covar
That reminds me, just a heads up for you Bubble, the meeting has be moved to Thursday. There was an existing conflict with the room.Gassie, you missed an emoticon there:
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
#124
Bubble181
Bubble181
Good thing she still believes I go to "some car thing she wouldn't be interested in" every Thursday.That reminds me, just a heads up for you Bubble, the meeting has be moved to Thursday. There was an existing conflict with the room.
#125
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
Just discovered this today, but it's related to our discussion:
It does seem interesting, however, how a lot of completely commonplace, everyday stuff occurs in this film but it's viewed as weird, inappropriate, or wrong just because the genders are switched. Funny that, huh?
edit: I hated spoiling that because doing so really proves Nick's point, but it is considered NSFW so I had to. I apologize for the necessity.
It does seem interesting, however, how a lot of completely commonplace, everyday stuff occurs in this film but it's viewed as weird, inappropriate, or wrong just because the genders are switched. Funny that, huh?
edit: I hated spoiling that because doing so really proves Nick's point, but it is considered NSFW so I had to. I apologize for the necessity.
#126
GasBandit
But as you say, nobody can reasonably argue that there isn't a tendency for men to be better off in life and generally run things. But there's a difference between "striving for equality" and "smashing the patriarchy."
GasBandit
... except I wasn't trolling. There are those who talk about fighting the patriarchy in the same manner I've heard many old southern baptists talk about Satan.Gassie, you missed an emoticon there:
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
But as you say, nobody can reasonably argue that there isn't a tendency for men to be better off in life and generally run things. But there's a difference between "striving for equality" and "smashing the patriarchy."
#127
Espy
Sorry, I thought we settled the whole "boogeyman" THE PATRIARCHY thing awhile back in the thread. If people want to focus on that go start a thread called "crazy conspiracies" or something. Gas nails the concept here. There's a vast difference between rationally being able to look at and understand cultural privilege and attitudes and the radical fringe.
Espy
Yes. That it.But as you say, nobody can reasonably argue that there isn't a tendency for men to be better off in life and generally run things. But there's a difference between "striving for equality" and "smashing the patriarchy."
Sorry, I thought we settled the whole "boogeyman" THE PATRIARCHY thing awhile back in the thread. If people want to focus on that go start a thread called "crazy conspiracies" or something. Gas nails the concept here. There's a vast difference between rationally being able to look at and understand cultural privilege and attitudes and the radical fringe.
#128
GasBandit
GasBandit
And it's usually easy to tell which is which based on the terminology they use. Which is why I generally tune out anyone who starts talking about "the patriarchy" instead of equality. It's a very short step, apparently, from noticing a trend to seeing a conspiracy.Yes. That it.
Sorry, I thought we settled the whole "boogeyman" THE PATRIARCHY thing awhile back in the thread. If people want to focus on that go start a thread called "crazy conspiracies" or something. Gas nails the concept here. There's a vast difference between rationally being able to look at and understand cultural privilege and attitudes and the radical fringe.
#129
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
except there are numerous papers and studies and scientific research into sociology / culture / bla bla proving the patriarchy and absolutely no proof ever for god
#130
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
Oh boy...There's a huge difference, to me, between "rape" and "rape".
#131
GasBandit
The difference between patriarchy and "the patriarchy." The terminology and what it indicates about the user. But whatever, templars gonna temp.
GasBandit
except there are numerous papers and studies and scientific research into sociology / culture / bla bla proving the patriarchy and absolutely no proof ever for god
The difference between patriarchy and "the patriarchy." The terminology and what it indicates about the user. But whatever, templars gonna temp.
#132
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
You're literally making up terms for your own preconceived notions that aren't based on anyone's reality here, man.
#133
MindDetective
MindDetective
The word "the" actually imparts meaning. There is a difference between "a patriarchy" and "the patriarchy". In this case, "the" implies specificity and cohesion. If you do not mean to communicate that, you should find another way to phrase what you want to say. You clearly aren't getting your point across otherwise.You're literally making up terms for your own preconceived notions that aren't based on anyone's reality here, man.
#134
Espy
Espy
Honestly I think at 4 pages in people are just harping on the whole "THE" patriarchy thing to avoid having to actually talk about it. We've already discussed that no one thinks theres a huge conspiracy of men who get together to keep everyone else down. If you continue to argue against that idea I have a video of the fake moon landing I'd like to sell you since apparently folks here are more interested in crazy bullshit than anything else.
But whatevs, I'm not sure what else this thread can do at this point since we are just circling back around at this point. There has been some great discussion in here and I've had several pm's from various folks saying how much they have enjoyed the thread. So rock on those who have worked to elevate the discussion beyond craziness and troll-ery.
But whatevs, I'm not sure what else this thread can do at this point since we are just circling back around at this point. There has been some great discussion in here and I've had several pm's from various folks saying how much they have enjoyed the thread. So rock on those who have worked to elevate the discussion beyond craziness and troll-ery.
#135
GasBandit
GasBandit
I don't think anybody disagrees with the idea that there needs to be more societal emphasis on teaching men to respect and value women as equals and to understand where the acceptable boundaries of behavior are, and that institutions and bureaucracies need to be held accountable for doing justice by the victims of sexual assaults. It's going to take more Paterno-type falls from grace, I think, before the message will really get across that it is and should be a career-ending decision to ignore/deny sexual assault and rape under your watch if you are in a position of authority.
My assertion is, there's never going to be acceptable levels of progress in that direction so long as the loudest part of the those who want more equality fancies itself a guerilla rebellion fighting a pandemic organized system of intentional and malicious oppression, and carries on as such. Even the title of this thread, the term "Rape Culture" is one that is just over the top. It's like when my hippie Aunt used to call my Grandfather a fascist based on his choice of paper towel brands. America has a car culture. It has a gun culture, sure. It doesn't have a "rape culture." There aren't rape clubs, official rape groups talking about how they're going to organize RapeCon 2014 and at which convention center. But that's the imagery generated by that term. And it's insulting and counterproductive.
But what do I know, right? I'm just part of the cis white male patriarchy slathering myself in privilege, after all.
My assertion is, there's never going to be acceptable levels of progress in that direction so long as the loudest part of the those who want more equality fancies itself a guerilla rebellion fighting a pandemic organized system of intentional and malicious oppression, and carries on as such. Even the title of this thread, the term "Rape Culture" is one that is just over the top. It's like when my hippie Aunt used to call my Grandfather a fascist based on his choice of paper towel brands. America has a car culture. It has a gun culture, sure. It doesn't have a "rape culture." There aren't rape clubs, official rape groups talking about how they're going to organize RapeCon 2014 and at which convention center. But that's the imagery generated by that term. And it's insulting and counterproductive.
But what do I know, right? I'm just part of the cis white male patriarchy slathering myself in privilege, after all.
#136
MindDetective
MindDetective
But the message matters. I think there are lots that we will agree on to combat these issues, but when someone tries to do so through a message that at least sounds like it is some kind of fringe conspiracy, it encourages defensive backlash, laughter, or just is ignored altogether. Honestly, I haven't weighed in on anything else you've discussed because I'm in agreement with it.Honestly I think at 4 pages in people are just harping on the whole "THE" patriarchy thing to avoid having to actually talk about it. We've already discussed that no one thinks theres a huge conspiracy of men who get together to keep everyone else down. If you continue to argue against that idea I have a video of the fake moon landing I'd like to sell you since apparently folks here are more interested in crazy bullshit than anything else.
But whatevs, I'm not sure what else this thread can do at this point since we are just circling back around at this point. There has been some great discussion in here and I've had several pm's from various folks saying how much they have enjoyed the thread. So rock on those who have worked to elevate the discussion beyond craziness and troll-ery.
#137
figmentPez
figmentPez
From what I've been told, and I've been unable to verify this, the person to coin the term "rape culture" was a sociologist studying prison life, where there was a rape culture. Guards knew it was going on and looked the other way while prisoners did it to other prisoners, guards did it to prisoners, and there was even organization to the use of rape as tool of intimidation and power. I am a little hesitant to use the term to describe the US as a whole.My assertion is, there's never going to be acceptable levels of progress in that direction so long as the loudest part of the those who want more equality fancies itself a guerilla rebellion fighting a pandemic organized system of intentional and malicious oppression, and carries on as such. Even the title of this thread, the term "Rape Culture" is one that is just over the top. It's like when my hippie Aunt used to call my Grandfather a fascist based on his choice of paper towel brands. America has a car culture. It has a gun culture, sure. It doesn't have a "rape culture." There aren't rape clubs, official rape groups talking about how they're going to organize RapeCon 2014 and at which convention center. But that's the imagery generated by that term. And it's insulting and counterproductive.
#138
GasBandit
GasBandit
That's because you are a reasonable person of sound mind.I am a little hesitant to use the term to describe the US as a whole.
#139
Espy
Espy
I totally agree, thats why many of us have tried to steer the discussion away from the fringe stuff but it's a far easier target for people to go after. Like the tea party or Jar-Jar Binks.But the message matters. I think there are lots that we will agree on to combat these issues, but when someone tries to do so through a message that at least sounds like it is some kind of fringe conspiracy, it encourages defensive backlash, laughter, or just is ignored altogether. Honestly, I haven't weighed in on anything else you've discussed because I'm in agreement with it.
#140
MindDetective
MindDetective
Note that I'm not targeting any kind of conspiracy here but the way to frame the discussion. I know it seems like semantics but if there is going to be any kind of change, we have to speak intelligently on the matter. So I'm not going after an easy target. I'm going after a difficult target: the words themselves that we use to discuss these matters.I totally agree, thats why many of us have tried to steer the discussion away from the fringe stuff but it's a far easier target for people to go after. Like the tea party or Jar-Jar Binks.
#141
Frank
Frank
Here's a french short film that flips gender roles around. There's some brief nudity and some more NSFW subject matter in it so warned. I thought this thread would be a good place for it.
Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
#142
Espy
Espy
I'm not really sure what your point is anymore, because you you've brought that up several times. Many of have tried repeatedly to elevate the discussion beyond the fringe stuff and towards something more meaningful. What exactly are you continuing to see that continues to be a problem?Note that I'm not targeting any kind of conspiracy here but the way to frame the discussion. I know it seems like semantics but if there is going to be any kind of change, we have to speak intelligently on the matter. So I'm not going after an easy target. I'm going after a difficult target: the words themselves that we use to discuss these matters.
#143
MindDetective
Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk
MindDetective
I simply felt like you misinterpreted or misrepresented my point, so I was clarifying. Thus the repetition.I'm not really sure what your point is anymore, because you you've brought that up several times. Many of have tried repeatedly to elevate the discussion beyond the fringe stuff and towards something more meaningful. What exactly are you continuing to see that continues to be a problem?
Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk
#144
Espy
Espy
No, I get what you are saying, no one here would deny words matter and that the context of the discussion will be affected by even small changes in language. The issue I'm addressing is that no matter how hard we attempt to move the discussion away from the fringe, elements on both sides mainly want to talk about that. Which I think is fruitless. There's no rational discussion to be had if that's all people want to talk about. I can't convince anyone we landed on the moon if they are convinced we didn't and frankly I'm not even interested in trying.
#145
Espy
Espy
Also, I'm getting ads for "circumcision and feminism" and "Muslim singles" so... Weird thread.
#146
Dave
Dave
I still get hotels and Hertz rent-a-car as I just booked them for my trip to Georgia next month. Ads are so weird.
#147
Terrik
Terrik
China dating here. Who's surprised?
#148
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
Outrigger Hotels in Hawaii. Imagine that.
#149
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
Reliable SMTP Email.
Even Google ads think I'm boring.
Even Google ads think I'm boring.
#150
PatrThom
PatrThom
"Download ZIP opener" for me.
Which is either way off topic, or spot on...
--Patrick
Which is either way off topic, or spot on...
--Patrick
#151
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Stock portfolio stuff.
#152
figmentPez
figmentPez
"How to Stop Your Divorce."
But I'm not even married, and I don't even want to think what that has to do with this thread.
But I'm not even married, and I don't even want to think what that has to do with this thread.
#153
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
I posted this a page ago.Here's a french short film that flips gender roles around. There's some brief nudity and some more NSFW subject matter in it so warned. I thought this thread would be a good place for it.
Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
#154
bhamv3
bhamv3
"How to Get Published"
Apparently Google Ads thinks I could write a good book about rape?
Apparently Google Ads thinks I could write a good book about rape?
#155
Terrik
Terrik
Being in Taiwan, and a lover of food, I bet you could."How to Get Published"
Apparently Google Ads thinks I could write a good book about rape(seed)?
#156
Frank
/checks thread
Fuck! I blame Tapatalk on my tablet while I'm away from home, burying my grandfather and away from my lover's touch. I think that's enough excuses.
Frank
Bullshit!I posted this a page ago.
/checks thread
Fuck! I blame Tapatalk on my tablet while I'm away from home, burying my grandfather and away from my lover's touch. I think that's enough excuses.
#157
GasBandit
GasBandit
H&R Block and TaxSlayer.com. Sorry guys, I do my own taxes.
#158
bhamv3
The rape book would be slightly longer, maybe copy and paste a few posts from this thread, and then end with "Please don't do it."
bhamv3
Would it be weird if I said I know more about rape than I know about rapeseed? I literally know nothing about rapeseed. The book I write about rapeseed would be two pages long: the cover, and one page with one sentence, "I know nothing about rapeseed."Being in Taiwan, and a lover of food, I bet you could.
The rape book would be slightly longer, maybe copy and paste a few posts from this thread, and then end with "Please don't do it."
#159
Frank
Frank
It's canola. It stinks when it's in bloom. It's yellow. It's mainly grown to produce oil. Now you know 4 things.
Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
#160
figmentPez
figmentPez
Now I'm getting ads for "Opioid Addiction Doctors"... What the hell?
#161
Tress
You need help, Pez.
Tress
Well, I didn't want to say anything, but I am concerned about the amount of time you've been spending down at the docks with all those opium dens.Now I'm getting ads for "Opioid Addiction Doctors"... What the hell?
You need help, Pez.
#162
Necronic
Necronic
I'm a bit late to this party, but a quick note on reading this thread.
For people who don't understand what Male Privelege is re-read this thread and consider how its almost entirely written from a male voice. The fact that we don't really find that abnormal in a topic that should be driven by female voices, that right there, THAT'S Male Privelege.
Also, my ad: "Allstate: You're in good hands"
For people who don't understand what Male Privelege is re-read this thread and consider how its almost entirely written from a male voice. The fact that we don't really find that abnormal in a topic that should be driven by female voices, that right there, THAT'S Male Privelege.
Also, my ad: "Allstate: You're in good hands"
#163
GasBandit
You're expecting, nay, requiring men to speak with female voices, else it is privilege?
GasBandit
Most of the participants, with a couple shining exceptions, have been male.I'm a bit late to this party, but a quick note on reading this thread.
For people who don't understand what Male Privelege is re-read this thread and consider how its almost entirely written from a male voice. The fact that we don't really find that abnormal in a topic that should be driven by female voices, that right there, THAT'S Male Privelege.
Also, my ad: "Allstate: You're in good hands"
You're expecting, nay, requiring men to speak with female voices, else it is privilege?
#164
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
I would be interested to know what the current percentage of active forumites is, gender-wise.re-read this thread and consider how its almost entirely written from a male voice.
--Patrick
#165
Necronic
Not at all. What I'm saying is that this venue, like so many others, is male dominated (there are more male forumites), and that's something we take for granted.
It's a hard concept, it's not about blame or how to "fix" it, it's really just about acknowledging that most venues for conversation are often male dominated, and often for no malicious reason but simply that there are more males involved. We often don't recognize that, we take it for granted. And taking it for granted: That's privelege.
Necronic
Most of the participants, with a couple shining exceptions, have been male.
You're expecting, nay, requiring men to speak with female voices, else it is privilege?
Not at all. What I'm saying is that this venue, like so many others, is male dominated (there are more male forumites), and that's something we take for granted.
It's a hard concept, it's not about blame or how to "fix" it, it's really just about acknowledging that most venues for conversation are often male dominated, and often for no malicious reason but simply that there are more males involved. We often don't recognize that, we take it for granted. And taking it for granted: That's privelege.
#166
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
He's saying that no matter how good our intentions, there is a notable lack of necessary perspective on this topic. As men we take that for granted simply because we're used to spaces where men tend to dominate the conversation, and that's especially problematic given the topic.
#167
figmentPez
figmentPez
I'm used to discussons on rape that are dominated by female voices. That was the majority of the posters on the subject in a Christian forum I used to frequent, that's the majority of the voices that discuss it on Tumblr, and that's the majority of voices that bring it up on a college campus. There is absolutely no way that I take a male majority of voices on rape "for granted" because it is most definitely not the norm for me when hearing about or discussing the subject.Not at all. What I'm saying is that this venue, like so many others, is male dominated (there are more male forumites), and that's something we take for granted.
It's a hard concept, it's not about blame or how to "fix" it, it's really just about acknowledging that most venues for conversation are often male dominated, and often for no malicious reason but simply that there are more makes involved. We often don't recognize that, we take it for granted. And taking it for granted: That's privelege.
#168
GasBandit
I guess what I'm getting at, is it even possible by the PC definition to not be privileged in every way? And if it is beyond our power to not be privileged, why are we to be chastised for it? Does it preclude any discussion of the topic on this forum from being considered legitimate or worthwhile?
GasBandit
I'm still not clear. What would the composition of this thread be, given that the overwhelming, vast majority of posters on this forum - and especially in this thread - are male, that would satisfy the criteria for "not privileged?"Not at all. What I'm saying is that this venue, like so many others, is male dominated (there are more male forumites), and that's something we take for granted.
It's a hard concept, it's not about blame or how to "fix" it, it's really just about acknowledging that most venues for conversation are often male dominated, and often for no malicious reason but simply that there are more makes involved. We often don't recognize that, we take it for granted. And taking it for granted: That's privelege.
I guess what I'm getting at, is it even possible by the PC definition to not be privileged in every way? And if it is beyond our power to not be privileged, why are we to be chastised for it? Does it preclude any discussion of the topic on this forum from being considered legitimate or worthwhile?
#169
Bowielee
Bowielee
It is beyond your power not to be privileged. If you're part of the privileged class, you just are. You can't help being born a man. HOWEVER, the point that's being made is that you should at least be aware of it, and consider that the perspective may be skewed a bit because of it. No one's saying that the discussion should stop, just to be aware of the context.I'm still not clear. What would the composition of this thread be, given that the overwhelming, vast majority of posters on this forum - and especially in this thread - are male, that would satisfy the criteria for "not privileged?"
I guess what I'm getting at, is it even possible by the PC definition to not be privileged in every way? And if it is beyond our power to not be privileged, why are we to be chastised for it? Does it preclude any discussion of the topic on this forum from being considered legitimate or worthwhile?
#170
Necronic
Honestly? I don't think it IS possible to not be privileged, it just is what it is. But I also don't think it's something we should be chastised for, it's just something you aknowlege. I don't believe men can ever really have a female perspective, or whites have a black perspective, the reference frames are just too different to begin with, so you accept that there is privelege and move on.
Two examples of this. Have you ever been to a baby shower? I was invited to one and I was one of maybe 5 men there. It was a very weird experience. I felt out of place, the conversations were in realms I didn't really understand or were in a different frame than I was used to. The fact that it was such a unique experience to feel that out of place...that's privelege. I am privileged to feel at home most places I go.
Another example, my girlfriend wanted to go get something from the corner shop at night and I didn't feel like getting up and going with her (she was walking). Since I wasn't in her frame I didn't think about how she didn't feel safe going alone. Even when I figured that out, I still didn't really understand what that might feel like, I just understood that she felt that way.
That said, I don't think the concept of privelege should be used as a weapon. I don't like how people shove it in my face like a dirty diaper. It's just something that "is" and it needs to be acknowledged.
Also fwiw I think that South Park did a really great piece on this with the whole Wheel of Fortune episode. Tokens response at the end really nails home privelege, I can acknowledge its existence, but infant change my frame of reference,
Necronic
I'm still not clear. What would the composition of this thread be, given that the overwhelming, vast majority of posters on this forum - and especially in this thread - are male, that would satisfy the criteria for "not privileged?"
I guess what I'm getting at, is it even possible by the PC definition to not be privileged in every way? And if it is beyond our power to not be privileged, why are we to be chastised for it? Does it preclude any discussion of the topic on this forum from being considered legitimate or worthwhile?
Honestly? I don't think it IS possible to not be privileged, it just is what it is. But I also don't think it's something we should be chastised for, it's just something you aknowlege. I don't believe men can ever really have a female perspective, or whites have a black perspective, the reference frames are just too different to begin with, so you accept that there is privelege and move on.
Two examples of this. Have you ever been to a baby shower? I was invited to one and I was one of maybe 5 men there. It was a very weird experience. I felt out of place, the conversations were in realms I didn't really understand or were in a different frame than I was used to. The fact that it was such a unique experience to feel that out of place...that's privelege. I am privileged to feel at home most places I go.
Another example, my girlfriend wanted to go get something from the corner shop at night and I didn't feel like getting up and going with her (she was walking). Since I wasn't in her frame I didn't think about how she didn't feel safe going alone. Even when I figured that out, I still didn't really understand what that might feel like, I just understood that she felt that way.
That said, I don't think the concept of privelege should be used as a weapon. I don't like how people shove it in my face like a dirty diaper. It's just something that "is" and it needs to be acknowledged.
Also fwiw I think that South Park did a really great piece on this with the whole Wheel of Fortune episode. Tokens response at the end really nails home privelege, I can acknowledge its existence, but infant change my frame of reference,
#171
GasBandit
In a large enough sample pool, I have no doubt this is probably the case (as I often say, most stereotypes are such for a reason), but it's a very individualized statement, and one that dismisses instead of engages and also insults the subject if they already aspire to objectivity without being reminded to do so. It turns empathizers (or potential ones at least) into belligerents, on the defensive. Which I don't think helps the end goal here.
GasBandit
It still seems to me this is an easy go-to vehicle of dismissal. No matter how much I attempt impartiality, my arguments are subject to casual dismissal because I'm labeled as part of a "privileged" class. A fancy way of saying "You're a man, you'll never understand." It's very close to argumentum ad hominem, because it addresses the speaker and not the assertion itself.It is beyond your power not to be privileged. If you're part of the privileged class, you just are. You can't help being born a man. HOWEVER, the point that's being made is that you should at least be aware of it, and consider that the perspective may be skewed a bit because of it. No one's saying that the discussion should stop, just to be aware of the context.
In a large enough sample pool, I have no doubt this is probably the case (as I often say, most stereotypes are such for a reason), but it's a very individualized statement, and one that dismisses instead of engages and also insults the subject if they already aspire to objectivity without being reminded to do so. It turns empathizers (or potential ones at least) into belligerents, on the defensive. Which I don't think helps the end goal here.
#172
Necronic
Necronic
I don't think any of us said that it should be used to dismiss views, you're putting words in our mouths. Some people do this, but I think that goes beyond what is reasonable.
#173
Bowielee
Bowielee
I think the problem is that you have SOME people (you know who you are) who try to use it as a bludgeon, or some sort of I win button for an argument. That's not the case, it's a factor that needs to be acknowledged, yes, but it doesn't mean that it negates a good point.It still seems to me this is an easy go-to vehicle of dismissal. No matter how much I attempt impartiality, my arguments are subject to casual dismissal because I'm labeled as part of a "privileged" class. A fancy way of saying "You're a man, you'll never understand." It's very close to argumentum ad hominem, because it addresses the speaker and not the assertion itself.
In a large enough sample pool, I have no doubt this is probably the case (as I often say, most stereotypes are such for a reason), but it's a very individualized statement, and one that dismisses instead of engages and also insults the subject if they already aspire to objectivity without being reminded to do so. It turns empathizers (or potential ones at least) into belligerents, on the defensive. Which I don't think helps the end goal here.
#174
GasBandit
GasBandit
I don't think any of us said that it should be used to dismiss views, you're putting words in our mouths. Some people do this, but I think that goes beyond what is reasonable.
Yeah, I don't mean you two. I think you caught on about the SOME people bit.I think the problem is that you have SOME people (you know who you are) who try to use it as a bludgeon, or some sort of I win button for an argument. That's not the case, it's a factor that needs to be acknowledged, yes, but it doesn't mean that it negates a good point.
#175
Necronic
Necronic
Ok. Well. Not sure what your point is since you're not arguing against what we said....
#176
Bowielee
Bowielee
However, I do feel the need to point out, that in some matters, there are things that you or I or person X, Y or Z WILL never understand. I'll never fully understand what it's like to be a woman in today's society simply because I lack that unique perspective. I'll never fully understand what it's like to be fully part of "THE CIS STRAIGHT WHITE MALE PATRIARCY(tm)" because I'm not a part of that group.
That doesn't mean that we can't at least consider each other's perspectives and try to look at them objectively.
That doesn't mean that we can't at least consider each other's perspectives and try to look at them objectively.
#177
Necronic
Necronic
Yeah, and that's where things get difficult. Should I have no opinion on the Don Imus/Micheal Richards thing? Should I accept that all conservative criticism of Obama during the first election was tainted with underlying racism? Can I really talk about welfare when I came from an upper middle-class background? Am I not allowed to have an opinion on abortion as a man? Or on gay marriage as a straight man? There are a LOT of issues where my privelege affects my opinion, but it shouldn't invalidate it.
I think that this is part of a very long conversation we will be having with ourselves for years to come about how privelege affects our daily lives. The only thing we can really do right now is to simply acknowlege that privelege exists. That's the first step. And it is a DOOZY, because it puts us all on the defensive. It has taken me a very long time to get past this, and the funny thing is that when I really understood it I realized that I never actually disagreed with it, I just saw it as an attack on me instead of a simple observation of very obvious truths.
I think that this is part of a very long conversation we will be having with ourselves for years to come about how privelege affects our daily lives. The only thing we can really do right now is to simply acknowlege that privelege exists. That's the first step. And it is a DOOZY, because it puts us all on the defensive. It has taken me a very long time to get past this, and the funny thing is that when I really understood it I realized that I never actually disagreed with it, I just saw it as an attack on me instead of a simple observation of very obvious truths.
#178
GasBandit
Since role reversal is a popular tool here, let's apply it in this situation. If in a given argument about the National Football League, which is entirely comprised of males, do we need to remind a woman in the discussion of their inherent gender-based alien-ness to the subject matter, to make sure she adjusts her perspective accordingly? Of course not, it would be insulting and sexist to do so.
My point is, that those who most often point out privilege, and wield its identification as a rhetorical weapon, are most often the templars to which I refer in my first post, and the term is really of marginal utility to those of us who want engaging discourse. Of course I am aware that women, by and large, have a much more visceral and much less academic view of the concept of rape than most men. I am intimately aware of that fact. So when I'm "reminded of my privilege," it tends to rankle - and I imagine that to be the case with many other people in the larger debate outside the context of halforums. I think we as a whole should maybe not identify the privilege so often, but rather address the disparity itself which lends creation to the label.
Or maybe I just don't have enough to do at work and too many demons making me oversensitive right now.
GasBandit
My point is, that in a situation where we're trying to build equality through empathy and solidarity, such statements are handy tools of divisiveness. It's the case, not just for certain halforumites but in the larger national and even global discussion of this topic that "privilege" is a shorthand buzzword for "what you say is invalid because of who you are, even though you didn't ask for it and can't change it, so quiet down, this is OUR struggle." IE, as you and Bowie said, it's metaphorically used as a bludgeon or shoved under noses as would be a soiled diaper.Ok. Well. Not sure what your point is since you're not arguing against what we said....
Since role reversal is a popular tool here, let's apply it in this situation. If in a given argument about the National Football League, which is entirely comprised of males, do we need to remind a woman in the discussion of their inherent gender-based alien-ness to the subject matter, to make sure she adjusts her perspective accordingly? Of course not, it would be insulting and sexist to do so.
My point is, that those who most often point out privilege, and wield its identification as a rhetorical weapon, are most often the templars to which I refer in my first post, and the term is really of marginal utility to those of us who want engaging discourse. Of course I am aware that women, by and large, have a much more visceral and much less academic view of the concept of rape than most men. I am intimately aware of that fact. So when I'm "reminded of my privilege," it tends to rankle - and I imagine that to be the case with many other people in the larger debate outside the context of halforums. I think we as a whole should maybe not identify the privilege so often, but rather address the disparity itself which lends creation to the label.
Or maybe I just don't have enough to do at work and too many demons making me oversensitive right now.
#179
Necronic
Necronic
I totally understand where you are coming from, and its those people that use the concept of privelege as a rhetorical weapon that make it a very hard concept for people to understand. It puts you on the defensive. It says "you're opinions don't matter because you have privelege". Ironically, when used like that, it is its own form of privelege. But that's for another argument.
My point is that I don't think you actually disagree with the existence or concept of privelege, you just don't like how the term is used by some people. And, more or less, I totally agree with you.[DOUBLEPOST=1392161777,1392161495][/DOUBLEPOST]Just to put the concept of privelege into an even broader, and in some ways more important perspective, consider the privelege of being an American with regards to our concepts of foreign policy. We clearly lack the perspective of a palestinian or isrealite, but does that mean we should have no opinion on the matter? Does it mean, ultimately, that we should have NO foreign policy? No, it just means that we need to try our best to listen to the perspectives of those we try to help.
ed: To expand further. People in countries we affect with our foreign policy often just tell us to get out, that we have no business there. That we can't understand their issues and we shouldn't intervene. Yet, we are the only people with the power to intervene, and from our perspective, intervention is necessary.
Taking it back to the original frame of race, sex, etc, people of privelege are the ones with the power to affect change IN that privelege. This is why it is ultimately wrong to say we have no voice in this.
My point is that I don't think you actually disagree with the existence or concept of privelege, you just don't like how the term is used by some people. And, more or less, I totally agree with you.[DOUBLEPOST=1392161777,1392161495][/DOUBLEPOST]Just to put the concept of privelege into an even broader, and in some ways more important perspective, consider the privelege of being an American with regards to our concepts of foreign policy. We clearly lack the perspective of a palestinian or isrealite, but does that mean we should have no opinion on the matter? Does it mean, ultimately, that we should have NO foreign policy? No, it just means that we need to try our best to listen to the perspectives of those we try to help.
ed: To expand further. People in countries we affect with our foreign policy often just tell us to get out, that we have no business there. That we can't understand their issues and we shouldn't intervene. Yet, we are the only people with the power to intervene, and from our perspective, intervention is necessary.
Taking it back to the original frame of race, sex, etc, people of privelege are the ones with the power to affect change IN that privelege. This is why it is ultimately wrong to say we have no voice in this.
#180
Bowielee
Bowielee
To shift the context to maybe make it more clear. I'll specifically use Gasbandit and myself.
We have some seriously polar opposite political views.
I'm far more left leaning, he's more right leaning.
I feel like we both understand that about each other, but that doesn't mean that we automatically reject what the other person is saying. It's entirely possible to acknowledge that my perspective is completely different, but still have a discussion that doesn't use those differences as the sole reason to reject a viewpoint.
We have some seriously polar opposite political views.
I'm far more left leaning, he's more right leaning.
I feel like we both understand that about each other, but that doesn't mean that we automatically reject what the other person is saying. It's entirely possible to acknowledge that my perspective is completely different, but still have a discussion that doesn't use those differences as the sole reason to reject a viewpoint.
#181
Covar
Covar
It's been used to dismiss views. In this very thread even, back on page 3.I don't think any of us said that it should be used to dismiss views, you're putting words in our mouths. Some people do this, but I think that goes beyond what is reasonable.
#182
Bowielee
Bowielee
Yes, we know this, and it's pretty much agreed that that was wrong.It's been used to dismiss views. In this very thread even, back on page 3.
#183
CrimsonSoul
CrimsonSoul
He's talking about CDS guys. Just so you know.Yeah, I don't mean you two. I think you caught on about the SOME people bit.
#184
LittleSin
LittleSin
I have been watching this thread but afraid to contribute anything.
Welp, tumblr (I know, I know) has changed that.
Why don't we guess which ones are from boys magazines and which ones were said by rapists.
I think...this might be rape culture looks like in the world? Where information being sold to teens/young men looks startling close to what a rapist would say?
(I have the answer key for when a few people toss their guesses in.)
Welp, tumblr (I know, I know) has changed that.
Why don't we guess which ones are from boys magazines and which ones were said by rapists.
I think...this might be rape culture looks like in the world? Where information being sold to teens/young men looks startling close to what a rapist would say?
(I have the answer key for when a few people toss their guesses in.)
#185
Cajungal
Cajungal
Yuuuuuuuck. That's incredibly creepy. I have some guesses:
I think the "dress code" and "plasticine" ones are from a magazine.
I think the "dress code" and "plasticine" ones are from a magazine.
#186
LittleSin
Plasticine: magazine
LittleSin
Dress code: RAPISTYuuuuuuuck. That's incredibly creepy. I have some guesses:
I think the "dress code" and "plasticine" ones are from a magazine.
Plasticine: magazine
#187
figmentPez
figmentPez
I would agree with that. I'm still not sure that makes the US a rape culture, on the whole, since such magazines are still, themselves, viewed as disreputable. But at the same time, while we do frown at those magazines, we don't do anything more than frown. They're accepted as inevitable, and so is the behavior that goes along with them. It's wide-spread apathy rather than open approval, and I know that doesn't make things better, but I'm trying to figure out if it makes things worse. Society as a whole doesn't promote, or approve of, rape, but we sit around and let a minority promote it under other names.I think...this might be rape culture looks like in the world? Where information being sold to teens/young men looks startling close to what a rapist would say?
#188
CrimsonSoul
CrimsonSoul
They all sound pretty rapey to me
#189
LittleSin
LittleSin
That was the problem I had going through it. I was off in many of my guesses.They all sound pretty rapey to me
#190
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
It's a trick question - they're all rapists.
#191
LittleSin
Are you making a point about the fact that any magazine writer that would advocate advice this creepy is probably up to no good?
...if so, yeh, I'm inclined to agree if they follow their own advice. Though I also find a lot of guys just have no idea what they are actually saying. They just...open their mouths and stuff comes out and they don't really think about it until someone calls attention to it.
If you're making a joke...I don't get it?
LittleSin
Uhm....It's a trick question - they're all rapists.
Are you making a point about the fact that any magazine writer that would advocate advice this creepy is probably up to no good?
...if so, yeh, I'm inclined to agree if they follow their own advice. Though I also find a lot of guys just have no idea what they are actually saying. They just...open their mouths and stuff comes out and they don't really think about it until someone calls attention to it.
If you're making a joke...I don't get it?
#192
CrimsonSoul
CrimsonSoul
He's not making a joke he's saying all men are racist sexest rapers that are pig scum of the earth and deserve to have their testicles cut off without any numbing agent then fed those same testicles before being poisoned and ate by wild hyenas. I think I'm pretty close here with what he's thinking but that's our lovable Charlie...Uhm....
Are you making a point about the fact that any magazine writer that would advocate advice this creepy is probably up to no good?
...if so, yeh, I'm inclined to agree if they follow their own advice. Though I also find a lot of guys just have no idea what they are actually saying. They just...open their mouths and stuff comes out and they don't really think about it until someone calls attention to it.
If you're making a joke...I don't get it?
#193
GasBandit
GasBandit
British skin mags are pretty rapey in general, I'd agree. Though I have to say I've not read such things in, say, Playboy. Though it's been quite a while. Ironically, I stopped reading Playboy about the time I could buy them legally.
#194
WasabiPoptart
WasabiPoptart
I've read crazy shit in Cosmo about how to turn a man on that basically sounded like that article, but from a woman's point of view. I stopped reading all of that mess years ago.
#195
LittleSin
LittleSin
I used to have some second hand Playboys I used for anatomy refs (before it was cheaper to just use thei nternet). I have to say, I can't recall the language in them to be overly sexist, you know? They would talk about sex and beauty and fads...but not in a demeaning way.British skin mags are pretty rapey in general, I'd agree. Though I have to say I've not read such things in, say, Playboy. Though it's been quite a while. Ironically, I stopped reading Playboy about the time I could buy them legally.
Yeeeeh...cosmo is...weird. Like...is Cosmo written by crazy people?I've read crazy shit in Cosmo about how to turn a man on that basically sounded like that article, but from a woman's point of view. I stopped reading all of that mess years ago.
#196
PatrThom
PatrThom
I wonder how many of the quotes from the "Men's" magazines were actually spoken by rapists.
--Patrick
--Patrick
#197
GasBandit
GasBandit
That was kinda the point. You're supposed to guess.I wonder how many of the quotes from the "Men's" magazines were actually spoken by rapists.
--Patrick
#198
PatrThom
--Patrick
PatrThom
No, I mean that I'm curious to know if any of the article authors, interviewees, etc., ...are also secretly rapists.That was kinda the point. You're supposed to guess.
--Patrick
#199
LittleSin
LittleSin
Oh! I suppose I'll give the list now!
- Rapist
- Rapist
- Lad Mag
- Lad Mag
- Rapist
- Lad Mag
- Rapist
- Lad Mag
- Rapist
- Lad Mag
- Rapist
- Lad Mag
- Rapist
- Rapist
- Lad Mag
- Lad Mag
#200
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
nah I didn't mean that at all but nice try, champHe's not making a joke he's saying all men are racist sexest rapers that are pig scum of the earth and deserve to have their testicles cut off without any numbing agent then fed those same testicles before being poisoned and ate by wild hyenas. I think I'm pretty close here with what he's thinking but that's our lovable Charlie...
#201
LittleSin
So, just found this via tumblr, which is fucking scary, right?
But then some one added this:
You know what that is?
That's a map of native american/alaskan populations.
I find this correlation disturbing.
LittleSin
So, just found this via tumblr, which is fucking scary, right?
But then some one added this:
You know what that is?
That's a map of native american/alaskan populations.
I find this correlation disturbing.
#202
GasBandit
GasBandit
It also casts doubt upon a certain George Carlin comedy routine.
#203
LittleSin
Hard to do with strep throat.
LittleSin
So help me, I laughed.It also casts doubt upon a certain George Carlin comedy routine.
Hard to do with strep throat.
#204
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
It kind of looks like the figurative rape of Native Americans not only continues, but is more and more literalYou know what that is?
That's a map of native american/alaskan populations.
I find this correlation disturbing.
#205
GasBandit
Native american and tribal areas typically have rape rates 12 times higher than average. I've heard tribal police discourage its reporting.
GasBandit
"Looks like" nothin, it kinda does - although it's mostly internecine.It kind of looks like the figurative rape of Native Americans not only continues, but is more and more literal
Native american and tribal areas typically have rape rates 12 times higher than average. I've heard tribal police discourage its reporting.
#206
drifter
drifter
Eh, I don't know what the percentages of rape are for Native Americans, but I think a lot of it probably has to do with small populations and isolated communities. Here is a map by population density.View attachment 13912
So, just found this via tumblr, which is fucking scary, right?
But then some one added this:
View attachment 13913
You know what that is?
That's a map of native american/alaskan populations.
I find this correlation disturbing.
#207
LittleSin
LittleSin
I'd like to know who the rapist are. White guys taking a joy ride on a reservation? Other native Americans? I mean...I really doubt the second but I' not native so I am really and truly ignorant of how life is on a reservation despite the fact that there are ones in Newfoundland.
#208
GasBandit
GasBandit
I've heard both. It's said there's been a complete breakdown of the family unit among the native populations. Crime in general is much, much higher among native populations. Like, 2 to 3 times higher for violent crime. The political issues of jurisdiction often impede or outright prevent proper prosecution, due to squabbles between the FBI and the tribal authorities.I'd like to know who the rapist are. White guys taking a joy ride on a reservation? Other native Americans? I mean...I really doubt the second but I' not native so I am really and truly ignorant of how life is on a reservation despite the fact that there are ones in Newfoundland.
#209
drifter
drifter
Just read a bit about rape in Native American communities: 1 in 3 women are raped or sexually assaulted. Geez.
One thing that stood out to me was that 70-80% of rapes are perpetrated by non-natives. Honestly expected it to be lower; I suppose that's because I presume Native communities to be more isolated than they actually are.
One thing that stood out to me was that 70-80% of rapes are perpetrated by non-natives. Honestly expected it to be lower; I suppose that's because I presume Native communities to be more isolated than they actually are.
#210
ScytheRexx
Was not disturbing to me back then, but looking back on it after this thread, a bit disturbing now.
ScytheRexx
Back when I lived in California, one of my college classes required me to sit in as a observer for a local trial. The one I was assigned was a rape trial. First thing I noticed when I walked in and sat down to take notes, was that the man being charged was Native American.You know what that is? That's a map of native american/alaskan populations. I find this correlation disturbing.
Was not disturbing to me back then, but looking back on it after this thread, a bit disturbing now.
#211
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Not only are you more likely to be raped in Alaska, you are far more likely to be raped on several different occasions.
#212
LittleSin
LittleSin
So...you should never leave your house while in Alaska.Not only are you more likely to be raped in Alaska, you are far more likely to be raped on several different occasions.
#213
GasBandit
GasBandit
YMMV. I have a very pretty aunt whose husbands first employment out of college was in Alaska, and they lived there for 5 years or so (now live in Colorado), and as far as I know nothing like that happened to her while living there - so it IS possible for a pretty 20-something woman with long blonde hair to step foot outside in Alaska and not be immediately penis'd. Or at least it was 25 or so years ago.
#214
LittleSin
Alaska was on the travel list.
LittleSin
That's a relief.YMMV. I have a very pretty aunt whose husbands first employment out of college was in Alaska, and they lived there for 5 years or so (now live in Colorado), and as far as I know nothing like that happened to her while living there - so it IS possible for a pretty 20-something woman with long blonde hair to step foot outside in Alaska and not be immediately penis'd.
Alaska was on the travel list.
#215
Necronic
Necronic
My guess is that a lot of it may have to do with the isolation and gender imbalance in some areas. Stay in a bigger city and you should be fine.
#216
Bowielee
Bowielee
I think you hit on a big point here. I think that insular communities are a big issue with how easy it is to get away with rape. Small communities have their own social structures that tend to lend themselves to cover ups and suppression of this sort of stuff. This may be one of the big reasons that there are such high rates of rape in Native American communities. They always have been extremely insular.My guess is that a lot of it may have to do with the isolation and gender imbalance in some areas. Stay in a bigger city and you should be fine.
#217
Frank
Frank
Fun article from the Times about a study that showed 40% of the young men involved have had unwanted, coerced, etc, sex.
http://time.com/37337/nearly-half-of-young-men-say-theyve-had-unwanted-sex/
http://time.com/37337/nearly-half-of-young-men-say-theyve-had-unwanted-sex/
#218
Frank
Frank
I'm just gonna keep tossing these kinds of stories in here, because I am an asshole.
http://www.freep.com/article/201403...ntence-for-raping-daughter-3-raises-questions
He "might not fare well in prison". Yeah, probably not. He was still convicted of 4th-degree rape.
http://www.freep.com/article/201403...ntence-for-raping-daughter-3-raises-questions
He "might not fare well in prison". Yeah, probably not. He was still convicted of 4th-degree rape.
Only one disease gets you out of prison like that. Affluenza.O’Neill said he and his deputies have often argued that a defendant was too ill or frail for prison, but he has never seen a judge cite it as a “reason not to send someone to jail.”
#219
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Then it does not even mention all the guys that have unwanted sex because they had too much to drink around the wrong woman.Fun article from the Times about a study that showed 40% of the young men involved have had unwanted, coerced, etc, sex.
http://time.com/37337/nearly-half-of-young-men-say-theyve-had-unwanted-sex/
#220
Dirona
(sarcasm and gross double-standards aside - that's an appaulingly high %)
Dirona
OR what they were wearing!Then it does not even mention all the guys that have unwanted sex because they had too much to drink around the wrong woman.
(sarcasm and gross double-standards aside - that's an appaulingly high %)