You guys are making me tear up. I might not have had the guts if it wasn't for people in this thread that I knew would be supportive and compassionate.
[Question] What is Rape Culture?
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
figmentPez
Staff member
There is a hostile environment in the world, period. I'm trying to ask why women are expected to live in a state of fear while men are not. It's an honest question. If I'm going out into the world and I'm in danger, what is the difference weather that danger is sexual or not?
Except you just did deny it. You said the ratio was heavily skewed to women being the victims of sexual violence, but that's not the case. In 2010 there were nearly equal numbers of male and female rape victims. I'm not sure how you can construe that as "heavily skewed". Moreover, even for long term statistics, the number of male victims isn't so disparate as to be able to dismiss men, and male rape victims are horrendously underepresented in most statistics due to the fact that they don't even get recognized as rape victims most of the time. Further more the odds are actually skewed towards men being more likely to be victims of violent crime in general, which is an important thing to note when talking about the source and cause of fear.
Yes, I do bring it back to "What about the men?" Because articles like the one linked in the original post leave out millions of male victims. If we're going to talk about rape culture, I would prefer to talk about all rape victims. Especially since the concept seems to be "teach men not to rape". President Obama gave an address on sexual assault, and his statement was "We’ve especially got to teach young men to show women the respect they deserve. I want every young man in America to know that real men don’t hurt women." The rhetoric on this subject is heavily biased towards painting men as the aggressors and women as the victims. When upwards of 40% of the rapists in 2010 were women, and nearly equal numbers of men and women commit sexual assault, I don't think it is at all fair to focus on men as the perpetrators.
Saying that "no one denied that men are victims" is like having a conversation about heart attacks focusing solely on men, their symptoms, their risks, and then getting upset when someone tries to include female victims and claiming "well, no one is denying that women have heart attacks" before going right back to talking about how men live in fear of heart disease. Except, ignoring women's heart attacks is pretty much what happened for many years. There's still need for public awareness teaching women how to recognize the signs of a heart attack.
I uh. Think this entire post is [citation needed]
According to RAINN, Pez, your statistics for rape are wrong.
https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
1 in 6 women compared to 1 in 33 men is a big difference.
Also: "Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives, according to a 2010 survey by the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which used a broader definition (than the FBI)."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/07/men-as-rape-victims-_n_1191154.html
https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
1 in 6 women compared to 1 in 33 men is a big difference.
Also: "Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives, according to a 2010 survey by the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which used a broader definition (than the FBI)."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/07/men-as-rape-victims-_n_1191154.html
Last edited:
The statistics get skewed because of every point Pez had already made in this thread. I agree that there are a lot of cases of unreported male rape. The amount of friends I had in high school who legitimately believed that they could choose not to have an erection continues to baffle me to this day, considering the sheer amount of uncontrolled stiffies going on in that environment. Women also have a large amount of rapes going un reported, but proportionally I'm pretty sure men are shamed as much if not more about it precisely because of the same cultural stigmas.
figmentPez
Staff member
If you'd actually been reading this thread, you'd know that I'd already cited my sources for all of this. I didn't think I needed to again.
As I said, only men who are are anally violated, or orally violated by genitals, are counted in those rape statistics. Up until 2010 when the NISVS was conducted (and the study was only released in 2013) no national study even asked about men who were "made to penetrate". Men who were forced to insert their penis into someone else's body, men who were forced to have sex against their will, are not counted as rape victims in most statistics, including those from the NISVS and from RAINN. The statistics from the CDC for the year of 2010 are as follows:
Female rape victims: 1,270,000
Males "made to penetrate": 1,267,000
Looking at the lifetime statistics, there's more of a disparity, with only 1 in 16 men being rape victims (when we include "made to penetrate") but given that this is the very first time that such statistics have even been gathered, I have to wonder why the 12 month statistics are so at odds with the lifetime. Either 2010 was a really bad year for men being raped, men are being raped in increasing numbers as time goes on, or there are lot of previous victims who have rationalized away what happened to them over the course of time. (My money is on the last one.)
As for men and women committing sexual assault at equal rates, I already cited my source for that. Here it is again, "recent research published in the journal JAMA Pediatrics... found that males and females carried out sexual violence at strikingly similar rates after the age of 18 -- 52% of males and 48% of females."
(Sorry Pez I didn't see that citation earlier)
And this also presents another problem with rape culture and victim blaming because these crimes do not get reported out of fear or the belief that no one will listen or care.
And this also presents another problem with rape culture and victim blaming because these crimes do not get reported out of fear or the belief that no one will listen or care.
Also, the article he linked to ACTUALLY says that 90% of rapes under the age of 18 are by males and once both sexes are 18+ they start to even out. However it's a study of 1000 kids so, take that with a grain of salt. I can't find anything else that gives similar numbers to it out there, other than saying that a large portion of assaults are by men and often occur with those under 18, so that seems to line up a little?
Either way, I'm going to need way more than just one source to stop believing pretty much every other reporting group out there that says the majority of assaults are by men. Granted, there are TONS of assaults that go unreported, so I'm totally open to the idea but really, I'm way less concerned with making sure we are "blaming" men and women equally here and more concerned about HOW we talk to kids, men, women, etc, etc, about rape. And that is we say don't rape. Don't assault. Don't have sex with someone who can't consent, etc, etc.
Or we can sit around all day and make sure we all know women are bad people too. Which seems like an odd place to settle but… go nuts I guess?
Either way, I'm going to need way more than just one source to stop believing pretty much every other reporting group out there that says the majority of assaults are by men. Granted, there are TONS of assaults that go unreported, so I'm totally open to the idea but really, I'm way less concerned with making sure we are "blaming" men and women equally here and more concerned about HOW we talk to kids, men, women, etc, etc, about rape. And that is we say don't rape. Don't assault. Don't have sex with someone who can't consent, etc, etc.
Or we can sit around all day and make sure we all know women are bad people too. Which seems like an odd place to settle but… go nuts I guess?
I agree with this completely. The only thing I would add is that in a conversation with our kids or other young people I think we also have to emphasize that if they know someone has been assaulted or see it happening that it is also their responsibility to report it. I would say find a way to stop it, but this is not some scripted teen drama where the white knight charges in to save the victim.
Yes, and that is the problem. Simply, if people took more responsibility for their actions, there would be less of <bad_thing> in the world.
People complain about obesity, too. There's a guaranteed cure for that...eat less. But people don't want to eat less (it's uncomfortable, it has social consequences, etc) so instead we get these fad diets where you're not supposed to eat the "bad" food. When a gun is used in a murder, it often gets destroyed. Why? That gun may have caused a death, but it is not responsible for it. You were late to work because you couldn't stop playing CivIV...that's your fault, not Sid Meier's. And the dog? Let's face it, the dog is not the one responsible for sending everyone rushing out of the living room with their hands over their mouths.
This sort of deflection gets used to excuse a lot of bad behavior, and that gets to be a habit, and that's a bad_thing.
--Patrick
Last edited:
figmentPez
Staff member
How about the NISVS? Of those 1.2 million men "made to penetrate", 80% of those reported a lone female assailant. That means that 40%+ of rapists in 2010 were women. Is that enough for you to realize that women make up a significant number of assailants? Sure 60% is technically "the majority" but the majority of heart attack victims are male as well, should we not teach the warning signs for female heart attack victims because 60% of heart attacks happen to men?
I agree with this on some levels, but at the same time there is also the very strong likelihood that portraying sexual assailants as exclusively or predominantly male will only increase animosity between the sexes, and serve to reinforce the negative social stereotype that men are brutish and violent. I don't want this to be a gendered issue at all. Rape is wrong, we need to teach about communication and consent, but we should make sure to accurately talk about the issue. Part of getting accurate information out there is recognizing male victims. Just look at how many people in this thread were completely unaware of how many male rape victims are out there, but aren't even recognized as victims of rape.
I don't share your perspective on that. There's a lot of people here I trust and some I don't.
... women aren't expected to live in a state of fear. What I said just a page back was that typically men seem unaware that many women live this way. How can someone be expected to live in a specific way that many people are oblivious is even happening? What you're saying isn't making any sense.
Because that's what we're discussing in this thread. If you want to have the "why are people mean to people" thread, then by all means, start it, but we're discussing rape and the cultural attitude towards it in this thread.
See the above, replaced with "the all types of violent crime" thread.
Yeah, women do commit rape. Therape culture that excuses men as aggressors is the same rape culture that ignores them as victims. Women aren't the ones doing that--we're doing it to each other.
I know you're not oblivious to what we're discussing because you made such a big deal about people being inappropriate in the cosplay stuff back when that was a big deal. You can watch all those videos and interviews and see the comments on cosplay blogs and such, and not notice how the women in those circumstances are treated differently, and then not see how that translates over into the real world too? And then follow it up by not noticing the connection between rape culture and how women aren't being viewed as being people? Really?
I don't think people go out fearing their heart is going to attack them. That is an entirely different thing from being afraid of other conscious human beings.
I do not believe in The Patriarchy (to mix threads a bit).
Still, our sex ed in general, and practically each and every romcom or family tv series, still assume the man has top take initiative and the woman is a passive responder. In relationships in general. We are, all of us, constantly being indoctrinated with the idea that a "normal" relationship is one where the man makes the moves and the woman responds. This has been "joined" by the "empowered" or "self-assured" woman who uses sex/flirting/her looks to get ahead/her way/seduce - but that still isn't the same as the woman taking the initiative. On the contrary: it's a stereotype, even though it's of a "strong woman", that still assumes men are controlled by their genitals, and women are meant to just "guide" or "coax" men into doing things - the actual action is still for the man.
If and when you do see a woman asking out a man on a date, this is played as "special". She's "aggressive" or "odd" or whatever. A woman asking her boyfriend to marry her? I think I've seen it done once - and it was a Big Thing that he was so "weak and insecure" that he couldn't do it. It's still thought of as romantic for a man to "take the reigns" and "be in control".
This whole (im)balance of power is deeply ingrained in our society. Heck, most women will agree that, in their fantasies, the male's dominant.
We're constantly being bombarded by this way of thinking - men take the action, women may be reluctant or play "hard to get" but will come around.
Men are constantly told they need to take action, that women saying "no" may just be playing hard to get, and that women like being controlled. Women are told should play hard to get even if they want to, they're told manipulating or using men is "ok", and that, if anything goes wrong, they can't fight back. Both sides of this cultural phenomenon are horrible. Neither, obviously, excuses rape.
Another, related, problem I have in the rape debate is that most types of rape are all thrown on one big heap. There's a huge difference, to me, between "rape" and "rape". Drugging a victim to draw then into the bushes, violently abuse them, than leaving them for dead is a different crime from being a school teacher and abusing your authority to force a student into things they're not comfortable with, is a different crime from going to bars and liquoring up someone so their standards and inhibitions are lower and taking advantage of that, is different from abusing your (step/grand/adoptive)child for years on end, is a different crime from a 17 year old and a 14 year old having consensual sex, and so on.
I know, there's statutory rape, rape, rape with assault, sexual assault, and so on - but in the general population's view it's all one big thing - and since attention mostly goes to the "big" cases, the perception comes to exist that some of the "lesser" forms aren't rape and, therefore, not wrong. That is, a college boy getting a coed blind drunk and taking advantage of her doesn't consider what he's doing he same as that of someone who abducts and abuses 10 prepubescent girls for years on end before dumping their bodies in a river. For some reason, many rape white knights want us to view everything there as "the exact same crime" - and all should be punished equally, and all should be seen as the biggest scum of the earth. This causes people to think that, since A isn't B, it itsn't rape. So A is ok. Which, obviously, it is not.
I'm not saying "some forms of rape are acceptable", or "some forms of rape aren't that bad", or "we should lighten up about some types of rape" - all things I've been accused of, and I'm sure I will be again. I'm not, though, really. But the only way to get it into people's heads that all rape is bad, is by clearly outlining rape (which is hard to do) and to point out what is and isn't what. Treating a shoplifter the same as someone who robs a house and violently abuses the inhabitants is obviously stupid. I am not saying "some types of rape are only as bad as shoplifting" -any type of sexual abuse/attack/predation/etc is a million times worse. I am saying that, if we don't learn to differentiate, people will be able to convince themselves that what they're doing "isn't that". Which is BS. It is a form of that, just a different form. Which is still horrible and should still be sufficiently punished.
Still, our sex ed in general, and practically each and every romcom or family tv series, still assume the man has top take initiative and the woman is a passive responder. In relationships in general. We are, all of us, constantly being indoctrinated with the idea that a "normal" relationship is one where the man makes the moves and the woman responds. This has been "joined" by the "empowered" or "self-assured" woman who uses sex/flirting/her looks to get ahead/her way/seduce - but that still isn't the same as the woman taking the initiative. On the contrary: it's a stereotype, even though it's of a "strong woman", that still assumes men are controlled by their genitals, and women are meant to just "guide" or "coax" men into doing things - the actual action is still for the man.
If and when you do see a woman asking out a man on a date, this is played as "special". She's "aggressive" or "odd" or whatever. A woman asking her boyfriend to marry her? I think I've seen it done once - and it was a Big Thing that he was so "weak and insecure" that he couldn't do it. It's still thought of as romantic for a man to "take the reigns" and "be in control".
This whole (im)balance of power is deeply ingrained in our society. Heck, most women will agree that, in their fantasies, the male's dominant.
We're constantly being bombarded by this way of thinking - men take the action, women may be reluctant or play "hard to get" but will come around.
Men are constantly told they need to take action, that women saying "no" may just be playing hard to get, and that women like being controlled. Women are told should play hard to get even if they want to, they're told manipulating or using men is "ok", and that, if anything goes wrong, they can't fight back. Both sides of this cultural phenomenon are horrible. Neither, obviously, excuses rape.
Another, related, problem I have in the rape debate is that most types of rape are all thrown on one big heap. There's a huge difference, to me, between "rape" and "rape". Drugging a victim to draw then into the bushes, violently abuse them, than leaving them for dead is a different crime from being a school teacher and abusing your authority to force a student into things they're not comfortable with, is a different crime from going to bars and liquoring up someone so their standards and inhibitions are lower and taking advantage of that, is different from abusing your (step/grand/adoptive)child for years on end, is a different crime from a 17 year old and a 14 year old having consensual sex, and so on.
I know, there's statutory rape, rape, rape with assault, sexual assault, and so on - but in the general population's view it's all one big thing - and since attention mostly goes to the "big" cases, the perception comes to exist that some of the "lesser" forms aren't rape and, therefore, not wrong. That is, a college boy getting a coed blind drunk and taking advantage of her doesn't consider what he's doing he same as that of someone who abducts and abuses 10 prepubescent girls for years on end before dumping their bodies in a river. For some reason, many rape white knights want us to view everything there as "the exact same crime" - and all should be punished equally, and all should be seen as the biggest scum of the earth. This causes people to think that, since A isn't B, it itsn't rape. So A is ok. Which, obviously, it is not.
I'm not saying "some forms of rape are acceptable", or "some forms of rape aren't that bad", or "we should lighten up about some types of rape" - all things I've been accused of, and I'm sure I will be again. I'm not, though, really. But the only way to get it into people's heads that all rape is bad, is by clearly outlining rape (which is hard to do) and to point out what is and isn't what. Treating a shoplifter the same as someone who robs a house and violently abuses the inhabitants is obviously stupid. I am not saying "some types of rape are only as bad as shoplifting" -any type of sexual abuse/attack/predation/etc is a million times worse. I am saying that, if we don't learn to differentiate, people will be able to convince themselves that what they're doing "isn't that". Which is BS. It is a form of that, just a different form. Which is still horrible and should still be sufficiently punished.
The patriarchy is like global warming, you can believe in it or not, but it still exists
GasBandit
Staff member
Sounds a bit like religion if you ask me.
Gassie, you missed an emoticon there: 
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
That reminds me, just a heads up for you Bubble, the meeting has be moved to Thursday. There was an existing conflict with the room.Gassie, you missed an emoticon there:
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
Good thing she still believes I go to "some car thing she wouldn't be interested in" every Thursday.
Just discovered this today, but it's related to our discussion:
It does seem interesting, however, how a lot of completely commonplace, everyday stuff occurs in this film but it's viewed as weird, inappropriate, or wrong just because the genders are switched. Funny that, huh?
edit: I hated spoiling that because doing so really proves Nick's point, but it is considered NSFW so I had to. I apologize for the necessity.
It does seem interesting, however, how a lot of completely commonplace, everyday stuff occurs in this film but it's viewed as weird, inappropriate, or wrong just because the genders are switched. Funny that, huh?
edit: I hated spoiling that because doing so really proves Nick's point, but it is considered NSFW so I had to. I apologize for the necessity.
Last edited by a moderator:
GasBandit
Staff member
... except I wasn't trolling. There are those who talk about fighting the patriarchy in the same manner I've heard many old southern baptists talk about Satan.Gassie, you missed an emoticon there:
Anyway, I said The Patriarchy. Not "patriarchy". We've just spent half a thread talking about the difference. Yes, our society as a whole stems from patriarchal roots, yes, our culture, habits, beliefs and traditions are heavily rooted in and dependent on that. Anyone denying that is an idiot. I was referring to The Patriarchy. As in, we (cis white) men are part of an evil backroom plot to continue the suppression of women.
But as you say, nobody can reasonably argue that there isn't a tendency for men to be better off in life and generally run things. But there's a difference between "striving for equality" and "smashing the patriarchy."
Yes. That it.
Sorry, I thought we settled the whole "boogeyman" THE PATRIARCHY thing awhile back in the thread. If people want to focus on that go start a thread called "crazy conspiracies" or something. Gas nails the concept here. There's a vast difference between rationally being able to look at and understand cultural privilege and attitudes and the radical fringe.
GasBandit
Staff member
And it's usually easy to tell which is which based on the terminology they use. Which is why I generally tune out anyone who starts talking about "the patriarchy" instead of equality. It's a very short step, apparently, from noticing a trend to seeing a conspiracy.
except there are numerous papers and studies and scientific research into sociology / culture / bla bla proving the patriarchy and absolutely no proof ever for god
Oh boy...
GasBandit
Staff member
The difference between patriarchy and "the patriarchy." The terminology and what it indicates about the user. But whatever, templars gonna temp.
You're literally making up terms for your own preconceived notions that aren't based on anyone's reality here, man.
The word "the" actually imparts meaning. There is a difference between "a patriarchy" and "the patriarchy". In this case, "the" implies specificity and cohesion. If you do not mean to communicate that, you should find another way to phrase what you want to say. You clearly aren't getting your point across otherwise.
Honestly I think at 4 pages in people are just harping on the whole "THE" patriarchy thing to avoid having to actually talk about it. We've already discussed that no one thinks theres a huge conspiracy of men who get together to keep everyone else down. If you continue to argue against that idea I have a video of the fake moon landing I'd like to sell you since apparently folks here are more interested in crazy bullshit than anything else.
But whatevs, I'm not sure what else this thread can do at this point since we are just circling back around at this point. There has been some great discussion in here and I've had several pm's from various folks saying how much they have enjoyed the thread. So rock on those who have worked to elevate the discussion beyond craziness and troll-ery.
But whatevs, I'm not sure what else this thread can do at this point since we are just circling back around at this point. There has been some great discussion in here and I've had several pm's from various folks saying how much they have enjoyed the thread. So rock on those who have worked to elevate the discussion beyond craziness and troll-ery.
GasBandit
Staff member
I don't think anybody disagrees with the idea that there needs to be more societal emphasis on teaching men to respect and value women as equals and to understand where the acceptable boundaries of behavior are, and that institutions and bureaucracies need to be held accountable for doing justice by the victims of sexual assaults. It's going to take more Paterno-type falls from grace, I think, before the message will really get across that it is and should be a career-ending decision to ignore/deny sexual assault and rape under your watch if you are in a position of authority.
My assertion is, there's never going to be acceptable levels of progress in that direction so long as the loudest part of the those who want more equality fancies itself a guerilla rebellion fighting a pandemic organized system of intentional and malicious oppression, and carries on as such. Even the title of this thread, the term "Rape Culture" is one that is just over the top. It's like when my hippie Aunt used to call my Grandfather a fascist based on his choice of paper towel brands. America has a car culture. It has a gun culture, sure. It doesn't have a "rape culture." There aren't rape clubs, official rape groups talking about how they're going to organize RapeCon 2014 and at which convention center. But that's the imagery generated by that term. And it's insulting and counterproductive.
But what do I know, right? I'm just part of the cis white male patriarchy slathering myself in privilege, after all.
My assertion is, there's never going to be acceptable levels of progress in that direction so long as the loudest part of the those who want more equality fancies itself a guerilla rebellion fighting a pandemic organized system of intentional and malicious oppression, and carries on as such. Even the title of this thread, the term "Rape Culture" is one that is just over the top. It's like when my hippie Aunt used to call my Grandfather a fascist based on his choice of paper towel brands. America has a car culture. It has a gun culture, sure. It doesn't have a "rape culture." There aren't rape clubs, official rape groups talking about how they're going to organize RapeCon 2014 and at which convention center. But that's the imagery generated by that term. And it's insulting and counterproductive.
But what do I know, right? I'm just part of the cis white male patriarchy slathering myself in privilege, after all.
Last edited:
But the message matters. I think there are lots that we will agree on to combat these issues, but when someone tries to do so through a message that at least sounds like it is some kind of fringe conspiracy, it encourages defensive backlash, laughter, or just is ignored altogether. Honestly, I haven't weighed in on anything else you've discussed because I'm in agreement with it.
figmentPez
Staff member
From what I've been told, and I've been unable to verify this, the person to coin the term "rape culture" was a sociologist studying prison life, where there was a rape culture. Guards knew it was going on and looked the other way while prisoners did it to other prisoners, guards did it to prisoners, and there was even organization to the use of rape as tool of intimidation and power. I am a little hesitant to use the term to describe the US as a whole.
GasBandit
Staff member
That's because you are a reasonable person of sound mind.
I totally agree, thats why many of us have tried to steer the discussion away from the fringe stuff but it's a far easier target for people to go after. Like the tea party or Jar-Jar Binks.
Note that I'm not targeting any kind of conspiracy here but the way to frame the discussion. I know it seems like semantics but if there is going to be any kind of change, we have to speak intelligently on the matter. So I'm not going after an easy target. I'm going after a difficult target: the words themselves that we use to discuss these matters.