Fuck. That.
Black Widow is a boring character, and they've done nothing to improve her in the movies. If there is a solo movie for her, I'll eat my own socks.
[Movies] Captain America: The Winter Soldier
- Thread starter evilmike
- Start date
Black Widow is a boring character, and they've done nothing to improve her in the movies. If there is a solo movie for her, I'll eat my own socks.
In all seriousness, it's probably going to be Black Widow/Hawkeye like every comic ever.
Widow in Cap 2 was a step in the right direction, but I don't think she's been built up enough for a solo.
why does a female character have to be "built up" for a solo? How much is "built up"? Fuck, she's only been in three of the highest-grossing movies ever already (will be in a 4th before the solo film). The whole point OF a solo film is to give the character room to breathe and be "built up".
I think she's more than ready to shine for her own movie. Hell, they set the stage with her past being revealed to the world for an awesome espionage romp. Hell, just hire the guys who wrote Cap 2 (who are shockingly, the same guys who wrote Cap 1...and I didn't hate the first Captain America at all, those two movies are just in different leagues) to write it.
If we get a Black Widow movie, it's probably going to be Black Widow, Hawkeye, and (maybe) Silver Sable taking on Viper (Madam Hydra) and Hydra in Russia/Eastern Europe. Which sounds completely boring and safe, but easy to make.
I don't know... after Catwoman and Elektra, I don't know if I trust Hollywood writers to do a competent female-lead movie. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but they'd need to bring in someone from the comics to frame the story at least.
For me it's not about a female character, it's about Black Widow specifically. I've always found her character boring. Give me almost any other female Avenger. I'll be the first in line for a Captain Marvel movie, for example.
BananaHands
Staff member
Why they've taken so long to do a Captain Marvel movie is beyond me.
I've been hearing that we may see a Captain Marvel film as part of Phase Three.
I think this is the real issue, the writers of the Marvel movies have done a generally terrible job of making their sole major female character interesting. I actually think they should do a solo movie. Get some really strong writers and show everyone they can do female leads. I mean, it's not like they have a guy running their universe now who is known for his strong female leads or anything.
Very simple way to fix the Black Widow problem about her supposedly being uninteresting:
Have Greg Rucka write the script. The man has a great history of writing strong, interesting female leads. Hell, he even wrote some Black Widow comics and they were great.
Have Greg Rucka write the script. The man has a great history of writing strong, interesting female leads. Hell, he even wrote some Black Widow comics and they were great.
It's not just the movie, and therefore not just the writers for the movie. In the comics, I find her boring. I found her to be a giant cliche and horribly out of place. Now, to be fair, I stopped reading comics in the mid-to-late 90's, so maybe there was some huge revelation and the writing got much better. But I still have a strong memory of finding her boring.
Given the right writers or situation, any character can be interesting. If someone told me five years ago that freaking HAWKEYE would be the best comic out there right now, I'd never believe them.
... I still don't believe that.
And they skipped all that, while keeping the red star on WS's shoulder... though by the way it ended we might be getting a more in-depth look in Cap 3.
Just got back from watching the movie, really well done. Probably my favorite of the Marvel movies since Avengers. Not really much else to say, might come back later to say more.
Did anyone else notice the little Star Wars nod?
Did anyone else notice the little Star Wars nod?
The Bad
1# The entire thing was predictable from the get go. I knew who Winter Soldier was. I knew what Redford was going to do. I knew that
I pretty much saw everything in the film coming. Disappointed there.
2# The entire movie was made for fans of SHIELD more than fans of the comics. They're really pushing hard to get the TV show tied into this movie.
3# Tons upon tons of plotholes with no explanation, too many silly situations that were made up for the sake of suspense (The entire Nick Fury in the truck in the middle of town scene) etc
4# I can't see ScarJo as Black Widow, she just comes off as ScarJo cosplaying Black Widow. I just don't buy her as the character, at all. Example of a famous actor BEING the character? See below.
The Good
1# If Patrick Stewart was born to play Prof X, Evans is crystal perfect as Cap. He embodies the character perfectly in every word, mannerism and verbal inflection.
2# Amazing fight scenes really grounded in reality. Sure Cap is superhuman but you can really feel the UMPH in the fight scenes. They felt real and had weight. Solid solid action.
3# Even though the plot was predictable, I still enjoyed the Hydra twist. I'm a sucker for Hydra.
4# The credits teaser for Avengers 2.
and nods to other Marvel upcomings like the mention of Strange.
All in all a decent film but Cap 1 was definitely a superior movie. I'm not a fan of the Thor or Hulk films either though, I'm definitely an Avengers/IronMan fan on this saga so far.
1# The entire thing was predictable from the get go. I knew who Winter Soldier was. I knew what Redford was going to do. I knew that
Fury wasn't really dead
2# The entire movie was made for fans of SHIELD more than fans of the comics. They're really pushing hard to get the TV show tied into this movie.
3# Tons upon tons of plotholes with no explanation, too many silly situations that were made up for the sake of suspense (The entire Nick Fury in the truck in the middle of town scene) etc
4# I can't see ScarJo as Black Widow, she just comes off as ScarJo cosplaying Black Widow. I just don't buy her as the character, at all. Example of a famous actor BEING the character? See below.
The Good
1# If Patrick Stewart was born to play Prof X, Evans is crystal perfect as Cap. He embodies the character perfectly in every word, mannerism and verbal inflection.
2# Amazing fight scenes really grounded in reality. Sure Cap is superhuman but you can really feel the UMPH in the fight scenes. They felt real and had weight. Solid solid action.
3# Even though the plot was predictable, I still enjoyed the Hydra twist. I'm a sucker for Hydra.
4# The credits teaser for Avengers 2.
Scarlet Witch is probably my favorite Marvel character ever
All in all a decent film but Cap 1 was definitely a superior movie. I'm not a fan of the Thor or Hulk films either though, I'm definitely an Avengers/IronMan fan on this saga so far.
Yes it was predictable. I agree on that. I feel they could have pulled off the Bucky reveal a lot sooner I think, it happened pretty late in the movie.
I never realized how...
I never realized how...
scary Robert Redford can be. He has this way to him that always seemed like the "friendly grandfather", seeing him use those same mannerisms, only as a sadistic member of a world conquering terror organization, threw me off. Like when he kills his housekeeper he still had that "aww shucks" way to him, which made him way more creepy then any of the stereotypical evil archetypes.
The others didn't rely on a zomgplottwistthevillainis etc etc
It was a major plot point in this film, that's why it's being pointed out here vs the others.
See, I didn't have issues with it being predictable because I have dopey knowledge of the comics. Like I know that Rumlow is Crossbone's real name, so obviously super trained strike force guy named Rumlow is probably bad. Robert Redford has been promoted in interviews and shit as the villain and Marvel people weren't even trying to hide that Winter Soldier is Bucky.
That Arnim Zola reveal was pretty rad though.
That Arnim Zola reveal was pretty rad though.
wait, what, Iron Man 3 is literally this
Yep, it was one of the few complaints I had about Iron Man 3. I complained pretty hard about it in the IM3 thread.
My wife, who's never read a Cap book in her life knew who it was the moment he appeared, so it's not really a knowledge of comics that's needed, just a knowledge of movie cliches/predictabilities.
Agreed on Arnim and Crossbones though. Like I said in my compliments, Hydra did great.
GasBandit
Staff member
That's true, the Arnim Zola bit was pretty cool. But
But I don't think it's fair to call it predictable when the reason you know what happens is simply because it follows the source material.
Bucky was just too much of a... I don't know, "Chekov's Lost Sidekick?" And that we'd not seen Pierce in any previous movie material just made it go "Oh so I wonder who the big bad is this time, HMMMMM?
But I don't think it's fair to call it predictable when the reason you know what happens is simply because it follows the source material.
Or having watched the trailers and having decent facial recognition. Like Frank said, they weren't even trying to hide it. One of the near-release trailers had mutliple uncovered face shots for Winter Soldier/Bucky.
Agreed, I was simply refuting the point that only those with the comic book knowledge were able to predict it.
It also refutes your point that they "were relying on zomgplottwistthevillainis" when they're not hiding it.
They were hiding it inside the movie, I'm not talking about outside sources. Others were talking about outside sources helping them discover a plot the movie was WITHIN THE FILM trying to be a plot twist.
They were only hiding it from the point of view of the characters in the movie, not from the audience. The reveal wasn't intended to be a "zomg it's bucky, aren't you all surprised?" moment (whether or not it was for some people). Otherwise they wouldn't be showing Bucky's face in promotional material and having Sebastian Stan do interviews talking about it.
Welp I guess you say they didn't, I say they did, we both made our point. Neither sees the other point of view correctly. Moving on.
Anyone who is savvy about movie cliches knew Bucky was going to appear because of how much emphasis they put on him near the beginning while Cap was walking through his museum. It was a pretty forgone conclusion even ignoring comics and outside material. One of the reasons I felt they should have done the "It's Bucky!" reveal near the beginning when the Winter Soldier first appeared.
On the opposite end...
On the opposite end...
I think they could have saved the Pierce reveal a bit longer. Having the whole scene at his breakfast nook and killing the housekeeper felt like it gave away his evil twist prematurely. A good movie will hold the twist over you as long as possible before unleashing it, because it gives your logical mind chance to doubt the original conclusion. Then you pull it out and the audience is like "OHHH I was right!" rather then "Oh... I was right", which is what I got after that scene.
Think how interesting it would have been if they made it out like Crossbones was in charge of the whole thing under the nose of Pierce, only for Fury to show up and Pierce to show his true colors in front of the council? I think it would have had a bit more power at that point. But that might just be me.
Think how interesting it would have been if they made it out like Crossbones was in charge of the whole thing under the nose of Pierce, only for Fury to show up and Pierce to show his true colors in front of the council? I think it would have had a bit more power at that point. But that might just be me.
