for crissakes stop saying "not all men", pez
*sighs, turns over "DAYS SINCE LAST MASS SHOOTING IN AMERICA" sign to 0*
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
Of course nobody deserves it.
What I think we're having a hard time with is why Pez feels our gender needs defending. We have the power. When I read "men do ____ ..." I don't get pissy because I know it's not talking about me. I don't feel the need to jump in with a "not all men!" disclaimer. What I certainly won't do is stand side by side with misogynist shit-heads, be they the poor neglected nice guys who think women are a prize they deserve for being nice, or the insecure tough guys who see women as a step down from men. I don't get defensive when people attack them because I'm not one of them. I'm not going to act like they represent me by getting defensive on their account.
"Not all men are like that" is the recent battle cry. No. Fucking. Shit.
Do I like that women are taught to fear men? No. I wouldn't want to live like that. But the way to change that is not to get defensive when the pieces of shit are brought to light. The solution is to encourage better behavior among men.
If we get out of the gender discussion, then we get into people should be good to people. The reason it becomes a gender discussion is because there are imbalances and issues caused here by a difference in treatment based on gender.
Crazy usually rallies around something to justify itself.
figmentPez
Staff member
And do you really think the way to encourage better behavior among men is to promote negative stereotypes? Because I guarantee you that people will live down to your expectations of them. If another generation of men grows up hearing "all men are like this", "men are to be feared", "men never change", "all men this and all men that", some of them are going to hear that and end up being just as bad as you say they are. The way to make the world a better place for women is not to tear men down. You can never make the world a better place by bullying or fear mongering.
Moreover, I'd like more people to be willing to identify as feminists, but so many of them think that feminism is man-hating. It's because of all these negative stereotypes about men going around. These things are not unconnected! It's not just some random prejudice or "the patriarchy", the young women I know have heard specific things from "feminists" that have made them think the movement is bullshit. Then they hear men object to being stereotyped, get shouted down, and that just confirms to them that feminism is about hating men. This isn't just me, I'm just one of the few speaking up about it because I want feminism to have a better image. I'm not promoting the men's right's movement, I'm hoping to promote a smarter way to talk about feminism. One that doesn't demonize men, and doesn't alienate women who object to such.
When you read about women being afraid of men and the kinds of instructions, do you feel personally under attack? Have you felt bullied? Not on the internet; in the real life that you can't turn off by walking away from your computer. Do you feel this has somehow affected your rights as a human being? Not hyperbole--serious questions.
figmentPez
Staff member
Not in the legal "wasn't responsible for his own actions" way. The guy was an aberration, and not at all reflective of any group, but his brand of crazy is still most-likely fully culpable for his actions. He didn't kill because he had mental problems, he killed because he hated people. He hated women, he hated men, he hated ugly people, he hated pretty people, he hated himself. He hated and the people around him knew it. He wasn't known as a "nice guy", his own family reported him to the police (who did nothing).
Except only the fringe elements say 'all men'?
Men aren't being 'torn down' by the feminist movement. All the movement has done is point out that most of these problems stem from men and its time to teach the next generation better. The next generation isn't growing up with the sentiments you're parroting...they are (hopefully) hearing that all people are equal and they aren't entitled to anothers time and body.
You're the only (or perhaps the most vocal) person in this thread that has been doing the 'not all men'/'all men' thing.
Okay, I'm pretty sure that in the part you quoted, I said encouraging better behavior. I'm gonna scroll up and look at it right now to be certain.
Yes, that was in the part you quoted. I'm not getting how better behavior is the same as negative stereotypes. Men are already doing shitty things (yes, yes, not all of them, everyone is aware of this) and need to be shown otherwise.
Men are feared because they have behaved in ways that are to be feared (not all men, no, not all of them, of course--in fact, I'm pretty sure the only time the phrase men is made so absolute with the word "all" is when used on the defensive, because to disprove an "all men are like this" you'd only need one individual example. Now, I feel like you and others, when you read "men are like this", what you see is "all men", but if that was intended, I'm pretty sure the person would've written it that way, and again, it's not hard to disprove. You just need one man that doesn't fall under it. There are over 3.5 billion of us.)
Now this I understand. That said, there has been force against feminism before these recent years. There's even been force against equality itself. There are interviews during the women's rights movement in the last century where women said they didn't feel women should have equal rights. A woman on another forum years ago told me she felt women were supposed to be subservient to men.
Obviously these are outliers; not all women feel this way (I hope someone saw what I did there). There are outliers in any group. As men, we should be making efforts to turn the scumbags into the fringe of our gender. I'd like to believe they're less than the majority, but their percentage isn't small enough to be considered a fringe element. I'd like that number to shrink.
In any group/category/demographic, you're going to have fringe elements. Men, women, feminists. Hell, there are neo-Nazis who are okay with Jewish people. The "not all" defense is silly because you'd be hard pressed to find anything that "all" of a group fit into no matter what. We all breathe? We all live on Earth? So as far as feminism concerned, the "man-haters" will exist, but it would be preferable to see them as a tiny fringe element. It would certainly help the cause. But I don't think women who give or listen to those instructions are necessarily man-hating. But yeah, fear doesn't go to good places.*
*and nobody fucking quote The Phantom Menace.
Wow, there's so much going on here it's hard to keep it all straight. I'm not even sure where to start.
Pez, I understand where you are at. I used to get upset when my wife would talk about how women were treated. How unfair it was women are still being paid less than men in the same position. How a woman had to be careful when going out at night, what she wore, who she talked to, who she encountered. She was right, it wasn't fair, and I agreed with her it wasn't fair.
And I would get frustrated. "Not all men!" I would say. "Yes, I KNOW not all men!" she would reply. So why was she yelling at me? It took a long time for me to realize it wasn't that she was lumping me in with the bad of society, she was looking for an ally, someone to vent to. Instead of empathizing with her I was getting defensive when I didn't need to.
We all understand that men also have societal stigma's as well. The difference between the stigmas between men and women, however, is the stigmas men face (don't show emotion, be strong, etc) aren't contradictory. Women are expected by society to 'look pretty' while at the same time get blamed for 'looking pretty'. Today we expect women to be 'independent' while at the same time a woman who isn't with someone and rejects a male is a 'cold bitch'.
I know you believe this is wrong, and I don't think anyone here thinks you really believe otherwise. What is really important is we move beyond the irrational guilt associated with being of the same gender as those who DO think these things. You're not them.
Lets say this again. You're not them. Nothing will change that.
Everyone else, I understand where you're at too. You want to scream and yell at Pez because he doesn't understand just how different the struggle is for woman then it is for men. He doesn't understand the societal expectations of men pales in comparison to the confusing and contradictory expectations women face, and when those differences are bought up it isn't an attack on the struggles men also face but a cry for help to enlist allies in the fight for equality. We should try to explain to him why Men's Rights groups aren't the equivalent to feminist groups. Why the work of feminist groups isn't an attack on men.
Lets be a little patient, people. Instead of condescension and anger which just elicits frustration and digging in, lets try some understanding and explanation.
(This is not to say some haven't already done this. Not meant to attack anyone, please don't take this as an attack on you if you've been respectful and done this)
Pez, I understand where you are at. I used to get upset when my wife would talk about how women were treated. How unfair it was women are still being paid less than men in the same position. How a woman had to be careful when going out at night, what she wore, who she talked to, who she encountered. She was right, it wasn't fair, and I agreed with her it wasn't fair.
And I would get frustrated. "Not all men!" I would say. "Yes, I KNOW not all men!" she would reply. So why was she yelling at me? It took a long time for me to realize it wasn't that she was lumping me in with the bad of society, she was looking for an ally, someone to vent to. Instead of empathizing with her I was getting defensive when I didn't need to.
We all understand that men also have societal stigma's as well. The difference between the stigmas between men and women, however, is the stigmas men face (don't show emotion, be strong, etc) aren't contradictory. Women are expected by society to 'look pretty' while at the same time get blamed for 'looking pretty'. Today we expect women to be 'independent' while at the same time a woman who isn't with someone and rejects a male is a 'cold bitch'.
I know you believe this is wrong, and I don't think anyone here thinks you really believe otherwise. What is really important is we move beyond the irrational guilt associated with being of the same gender as those who DO think these things. You're not them.
Lets say this again. You're not them. Nothing will change that.
Everyone else, I understand where you're at too. You want to scream and yell at Pez because he doesn't understand just how different the struggle is for woman then it is for men. He doesn't understand the societal expectations of men pales in comparison to the confusing and contradictory expectations women face, and when those differences are bought up it isn't an attack on the struggles men also face but a cry for help to enlist allies in the fight for equality. We should try to explain to him why Men's Rights groups aren't the equivalent to feminist groups. Why the work of feminist groups isn't an attack on men.
Lets be a little patient, people. Instead of condescension and anger which just elicits frustration and digging in, lets try some understanding and explanation.
(This is not to say some haven't already done this. Not meant to attack anyone, please don't take this as an attack on you if you've been respectful and done this)
Not all Halforum members ...
I feel ashamed. I got frustrated earlier.Not all Halforum members ...
figmentPez
Staff member
Well, yes, but only in my really deep depression when I wasn't thinking straight at all. That's not reflective of reality, any more than any traumatized person's view of their own personal safety is reflective of reality. (Note, my trauma wasn't caused by women, it was caused by years of pain from a medical condition, but my fear of the world was still a result of that trauma.)
The times I've been legit threatened by women have been completely unrelated to the discussion at hand, so I won't bring them up here.
As to the subject of men being stereotyped I worry less about myself, and more about the children I hope to have someday, and the way my friends are treated. I'm personally lucky that I've been insulated from a lot of problems. But that doesn't mean I don't see the animosity that exists between the genders, and how the vocal minority of "feminists" are actively being counterproductive and slowing the real work of feminism. Yes, I realize that every group has awful members, but it's really shitty when moderates make apologies for the radicals. It is never acceptable to just say "well, ya know, there are always going to be people giving this group a bad name, they're just angry, we don't need to call them out on it." Bullshit. There's a need to call out the shitty members of any group. If your group has a bad reputation, you call out the people giving it a bad rep. (Wait, isn't that exactly what men are supposed to be doing? Why only men, and not feminists?)
It should be pretty clear that I'm not unusual in knowing young people who want equality, but are prejudiced against feminism. There have been numerous celebrities lately who have either said "I believe in equality for women, but I wouldn't call myself a feminist" or "People need to learn what feminism really means" to realize that there are a lot of people out there with the wrong impression of the movement. It's not just Tumblr, it's not just a limited scope problem. Yes, there are a lot of good feminists out there, but think about it this way. If you're bristling at the idea that these vocal asshats are giving feminism a bad name, but are completely unwilling to admit that they really are causing a legit problem, then that seems to me that you're actually in a worse position than me, who is bristling at vocal asshats giving my demographic a bad name, when I'm completely willing to admit that they're causing a legit problem. I want to solve the problem of toxic men. No one even admits that toxic "feminism" is actually causing a problem... and the problems it's causing aren't primarily for men, it's problems for women and other minorities because it slows progress for the movement as a whole, and the ones who need the most progress are women and minorities. I'm not mad primarily because men are getting hurt, I'm mad because the hurt being done to men makes the whole movement look bad, and slows progress for everyone the movement is trying to help.
Seriously? I have never said that Men's Rights groups are equivalent to feminism. NEVER.
God damn strawman arguments.
To hell with this stupid conversation.
figmentPez
Staff member
He's right, pretty much no one is saying "all men", but a lot of people are saying "all men should be treated as evil because of this", and that really is a problem.
figmentPez
Staff member
First off, everyone around Elliot Rodger knew he was poison. His roommates wanted to move out, his parents reported him to the police, women wouldn't date him. He wasn't just another person. People knew exactly where the problem was, but nothing was done about it.
Second, change men to any other demographic, and ask yourself if it's acceptable. "You say not all teachers are monsters?" I could start a hashtag of people who have had some sort of bad experience in school. I could find people who have been mistreated by bad teachers in dozens of different ways. Would that justify saying that teachers are poison and that schools are dangerous to children?
May I add my own experience since I don't really frequent twitter anymore?
-when I was 5 years old my 11 year old (I believe that was his age) neighbor took me to his shed and told me to touch his 'thingie' until milk came out. I started crying and he pinched me because 'girl did this stuff'. My mom found us and flipped her shit. When she spoke to the boy parents she was told he was just curious and I should know better then to go somewhere alone with a boy. He later went to juvie for beating his female cousin...after sexually assaulting her. He only went away for the beating, though!
- Walking to my car from my sisters 21st birthday I saw a man coming down the side steps. I thought nothing of the fact I was alone or that he was bigger or that I did not know him. It's foolish to be afraid of strangers, right? And he would surely be offended if I gave him a wide berth! Welp, next thing I know I'm being slammed against a wall, his hand against my throat..other hand socking me in the stomach before getting 'frisky. I=I was scared...and that usually pisses me off. I beat him with the keys between my knuckles. He ran away screaming and crying, I chased him, he screamed I was crazy...and I dashed for my car.
I never reported to the cops but everyone but my husband told me I shouldn't have walked alone.
I STILL walk alone...but I don't worry about offending mens feelings anymore.
-This past november/December I dressed up nicely for work. I figured I should while I still fit in my dresses, you know? I wore my long sleeved green dress and black leggings. The dress was a bit shorter than I remembered but not unprofessional. I felt pretty confident and good as this was the first day in a long time that I wasn't feeling ready to puke myself silly since I got pregnant again and it wasn't snowing! I decided to go grab some Tims for lunch so I hopped in my car and went. When I stopped I dropped my keys next to my car so I had to bend to get them. When I stood there was a guy there, dick hanging out jacking like there was no tomorrow. I stared and said, loudly "What the fuck?!" or something like that.
People hurried by. He was red in the face and grinning. "What did you expect dressed like that?"
So I threw him up against my car and began kicking him.
I was pregnant so I couldn't get to physical so he got away. I called the cops. They took his description but you could just tell this was low priority and, about a month later, they called to say they were closing the case.
NO ONE ELSE STOPPED. IT WAS MIDDAY ON A BUSY STREET.
This isn't even mentioning street harassment or the french dude that followed me around one day. I'm fat, right? So no man is going to street harass me or stalk me from store to store. Hell, I should be grateful for the attention!
This isn't even counting what I've witnessed happen to others!
I don't think all mean are evil. I never will. I have a son who's cute as hell, a father who (despite some missteps while dealing with his own stuff) I love with all my heart and a husband who is fierce but good at heart. I have five blood related uncles and numerous more by marriage, only one of which I don't trust anymore. I have mostly male friends and all of them are sweet hearts...but I do have to call them out on 'nice guy' syndrome at times. I love the men in my life deeply.
I can't ignore, though, that when I go out the door, it hasn't been women that give me the majority of my problems (it has happened) or even people of a different race or religion. Its been straight white dudes who felt they could do what they want and HAVE, for the most part, gotten away with it.
Sorry for the rant.
-when I was 5 years old my 11 year old (I believe that was his age) neighbor took me to his shed and told me to touch his 'thingie' until milk came out. I started crying and he pinched me because 'girl did this stuff'. My mom found us and flipped her shit. When she spoke to the boy parents she was told he was just curious and I should know better then to go somewhere alone with a boy. He later went to juvie for beating his female cousin...after sexually assaulting her. He only went away for the beating, though!
- Walking to my car from my sisters 21st birthday I saw a man coming down the side steps. I thought nothing of the fact I was alone or that he was bigger or that I did not know him. It's foolish to be afraid of strangers, right? And he would surely be offended if I gave him a wide berth! Welp, next thing I know I'm being slammed against a wall, his hand against my throat..other hand socking me in the stomach before getting 'frisky. I=I was scared...and that usually pisses me off. I beat him with the keys between my knuckles. He ran away screaming and crying, I chased him, he screamed I was crazy...and I dashed for my car.
I never reported to the cops but everyone but my husband told me I shouldn't have walked alone.
I STILL walk alone...but I don't worry about offending mens feelings anymore.
-This past november/December I dressed up nicely for work. I figured I should while I still fit in my dresses, you know? I wore my long sleeved green dress and black leggings. The dress was a bit shorter than I remembered but not unprofessional. I felt pretty confident and good as this was the first day in a long time that I wasn't feeling ready to puke myself silly since I got pregnant again and it wasn't snowing! I decided to go grab some Tims for lunch so I hopped in my car and went. When I stopped I dropped my keys next to my car so I had to bend to get them. When I stood there was a guy there, dick hanging out jacking like there was no tomorrow. I stared and said, loudly "What the fuck?!" or something like that.
People hurried by. He was red in the face and grinning. "What did you expect dressed like that?"
So I threw him up against my car and began kicking him.
I was pregnant so I couldn't get to physical so he got away. I called the cops. They took his description but you could just tell this was low priority and, about a month later, they called to say they were closing the case.
NO ONE ELSE STOPPED. IT WAS MIDDAY ON A BUSY STREET.
This isn't even mentioning street harassment or the french dude that followed me around one day. I'm fat, right? So no man is going to street harass me or stalk me from store to store. Hell, I should be grateful for the attention!
This isn't even counting what I've witnessed happen to others!
I don't think all mean are evil. I never will. I have a son who's cute as hell, a father who (despite some missteps while dealing with his own stuff) I love with all my heart and a husband who is fierce but good at heart. I have five blood related uncles and numerous more by marriage, only one of which I don't trust anymore. I have mostly male friends and all of them are sweet hearts...but I do have to call them out on 'nice guy' syndrome at times. I love the men in my life deeply.
I can't ignore, though, that when I go out the door, it hasn't been women that give me the majority of my problems (it has happened) or even people of a different race or religion. Its been straight white dudes who felt they could do what they want and HAVE, for the most part, gotten away with it.
Sorry for the rant.
The problem I think that's coming out about Rodger is that everyone who came in contact with him had a case of SEP (Someone Else's Problem). When someone reaches a level of audacious evil, people do not know how to respond. (raises hand) I know this for a fact. In my job, if a kid does something right in front of you, it sometimes takes an extra second to process it - did he just do that? Activating automated response. Unfortunately, there are some of my fellow co-workers who have trouble overcoming the "what do I do?" process. It comes with training, experience, and time - something that no one in this situation had.
Yes, he had some messed-up beliefs. So did Dahmer. The fact that both he and Rodger are no longer in the land of the living should be enough to show that those beliefs aren't worth holding. You can #notallblank you want on twitter.
Yes, he had some messed-up beliefs. So did Dahmer. The fact that both he and Rodger are no longer in the land of the living should be enough to show that those beliefs aren't worth holding. You can #notallblank you want on twitter.
Look man, I get that maybe you feel like thats the message you are hearing but I don't really think it's reality. I think if anything what you might be a hearing, and this might be worth considering, is that there is a SERIOUS problem with the way our society has conditioned men to treat women.
When I say "men" I mean ALL men. It doesn't mean we all respond to that conditioning, and I'm sure you don't either but I would suggest taking what you are hearing and trying to run it through a slightly different filter to find the underlying issue. Does that make sense?
Cajungal
Staff member
So true. This happens all the time. I have some regrets, but one I'll never have is not reporting disturbing student behavior. There was a boy who come here for about 2 years before his mom carted him off to some old-school academy that still uses paddles. This kid was always stewing, talking about violence against his peers, and was convinced that everything that his peers did was to spite or annoy him. He and I talked a lot. He told me about how much he wanted to hurt the kids who annoyed him and how tired he was of being told to smile. Freakin' eight years old. Everything about his speech and mannerisms cried "future violent criminal." One of the relatives who shared custody was a police officer who kept guns all over the house. I know that being a police officer meant that this person probably knows better than to just leave them lying around, but it's still scary to think about an angry young person in a house full of firearms.
We talked a lot. I was never judgmental or shocked by what he said; I'd just say things like, "people make me upset too sometimes. Want to know what I do?" or "what makes you want to smile?" I think I was the only one who could make him laugh. Before he transferred, I told the principal about the things I had heard. I told her that I didn't think he was dangerous as a child necessarily, but he definitely needed an eye kept on him and probably try out some therapy. The information was passed along before he left.
He visited recently, and he actually looked happy. I hope that means he either grew up a little and got over some kind of phase or that his mother took my advice. I'd really like to see him again one day just so I can know he's all right. I hope that his current teachers aren't glossing over his issues, basically running out the clock til they're not his problem.
Anyway... in this line of work you see a lot of kids getting passed over and forgotten. Makes me sad for the guy that I called an ass yesterday. Who didn't tell him what he needed to hear, and how many times did he ignore good advice? Jesus. I need a drink.
@Cajungal, you can't let the thoughts of what happened to ones like that get to you. I can bring to mind about a dozen kids who I had major issues with over my career. One still has issues with the law, but is pretty much a decent kid. Another one is in our maximum security, solitary confinement prison in western Wisconsin.
You just gotta hope for the best, and hope they learn sooner than later.
You just gotta hope for the best, and hope they learn sooner than later.
Necronic
Staff member
I'm not sure what generation you are talking about, but my generation (30 somethings) never really heard this. All we heard was people like you talking about how much we supposedly heard it and how much it hurt us. Sadly some people bought into it and used it as a broad paintbrush to excuse every personal failure. You guys are creating paper tigers to justify issues of intersectionality that are often really more about classism or ableism. It's the same thing with people talking about how everyone is terrified of adult males talking to children. Sure, if you wear a dirty raincoat with a neckbeard then yeah, maybe people will draw some conclusions, but I've never had an issue with this.
----------
As a secondary note, I do have to say that the conversation on the media is a bit troubling. I dislike MRA for a number of reasons, but I understand that it's different than redpill. This article bothers me a bit simply for so thoroughly not understanding the players (the rest of the message is good though):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/yesallwomen-elliott-rodgers-misogynistic-ravings-inspire-a-powerful-response-on-twitter/2014/05/26/dd755e4e-e4e0-11e3-8f90-73e071f3d637_story.html?wpsrc=AG0003336X
---------------
Edit: I also ran across this quote from Fark, and I really like it:
GasBandit
Staff member
I'm loathe to wade into this discussion, but I'll say what I think I suppose - Obviously, not all men are violent misogynists. However, the reality is that there are enough men who are (and these are very visible because of the properties of squeaky wheels) that women feel like social interaction with unknown males is tantamount to Russian roulette. There are also violence-minded misandrists, but obviously not all women are thusly inclined, and the ones that are get taken less seriously due to their lower perceived threat potential. Like Don Glover said - Every guy has a "crazy girlfriend story." But not many women have crazy boyfriend stories... because if you get a crazy boyfriend, you gon' die.
Necronic
Staff member
That made me think of a really great Louis CK bit:
This is a really interesting video, because it fits very well with our perspective as well as Fez's. We say "hey look here's a perfect example of how women have real fears that men don't" and Fez can just as easily counter "Here's a perfect example of how negative stereotypes are attributed to men." I think both are right in this case, but as a man I find the real fears of women expressed here to be far more damaging and significant than the negative stereotype of a comedy routine.
edit: hm. maybe avoid the comments....
This is a really interesting video, because it fits very well with our perspective as well as Fez's. We say "hey look here's a perfect example of how women have real fears that men don't" and Fez can just as easily counter "Here's a perfect example of how negative stereotypes are attributed to men." I think both are right in this case, but as a man I find the real fears of women expressed here to be far more damaging and significant than the negative stereotype of a comedy routine.
edit: hm. maybe avoid the comments....
figmentPez
Staff member
I've had numerous people quote that comedy routine as truth to me. There are people who really think that men are the leading cause of death in women. Okay, they're idiots, but I don't think most people realize just how rare it is to die from violent crime.
I have been thinking that putting the emphasis on physical violence is part of the problem in this discussion. This puts the focus on 'men' as the perpetrators of violence and then all these misunderstandings ensue.
Instead, if we take a step back and look at all the ways, most of them subtle, in which society is violent against women then the problem are not 'men' but 'the patriarchy' (if you'll allow me to use the word), or the social norms and expectations that we all inflict on women (because yes, women also do this to other women, and to themselves) and in a different way on men. In this context yes, men are the strong ones, the ones in power and the ones that inflict violence against women who are the weak, incapable victims, but this is just the most obvious example of a larger problem.
P.S.: I still don't believe that there is a significant amount of feminists in real life saying things like "all men are like this", "men are to be feared", "men never change". On the internet, sure, but if the internet were a good representation of people I'd think 50% of the population was anti-vaccines and whatnot. Also, misandrists who think they are feminists are given disproportionate publicity for a variety of reasons:
1- More outrageous opinions are always more easily heard
2- They are far easier to understand (and dismiss) than the more nuanced views of actual feminism
3- They are bad publicity for feminism, and to people who already oppose feminism, that's great.
Instead, if we take a step back and look at all the ways, most of them subtle, in which society is violent against women then the problem are not 'men' but 'the patriarchy' (if you'll allow me to use the word), or the social norms and expectations that we all inflict on women (because yes, women also do this to other women, and to themselves) and in a different way on men. In this context yes, men are the strong ones, the ones in power and the ones that inflict violence against women who are the weak, incapable victims, but this is just the most obvious example of a larger problem.
P.S.: I still don't believe that there is a significant amount of feminists in real life saying things like "all men are like this", "men are to be feared", "men never change". On the internet, sure, but if the internet were a good representation of people I'd think 50% of the population was anti-vaccines and whatnot. Also, misandrists who think they are feminists are given disproportionate publicity for a variety of reasons:
1- More outrageous opinions are always more easily heard
2- They are far easier to understand (and dismiss) than the more nuanced views of actual feminism
3- They are bad publicity for feminism, and to people who already oppose feminism, that's great.
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BananaHands
Staff member
Well, let's not just count death here. There's also physical and mental abuse that could lead to years or even decades of mental anguish.
figmentPez
Staff member
Then it's unfair to put "heart disease" as the biggest worry for men, because there are a lot of other stressors that men face.
figmentPez
Staff member
Damn fucking straight. Which is why it pisses me off that this is being quoted and repeated all over the place right now. It's a joke, and a damn funny one, but it's not an accurate reflection of reality. It's an intentional distortion for the sake of humor. It should not be referenced as an example of why things are so bad for women (namely because we don't have to compare women to men in order to show that women are threatened).
BananaHands
Staff member
Well, not ALL comedians.