There've been problems with some of the nightly builds. Version 2.1.1.0 has been stable and working, so I haven't mucked with it.
[PC Game] Kerbal Space Program (image heavy)
- Thread starter Tinwhistler
- Start date
GasBandit
Staff member
Ah, I have 2.2.1.0 . But maybe that version has it too... just watch the middle of the landing guidance panel while you're picking a spot, it's kinda subtle.. it just sticks the word "highlands" or "flats" or whatever in there kinda surreptitiously. The wiki says the biome infoitem was added in 2.1.1.0 ...
GasBandit
Staff member
So I had another object lesson in overconfidence/technology tonight. I was trucking right along, digging ALL the science out of the Mun, when on an ascent out of the farside crater Mechjeb goes berzerk and starts having my lander do flips. After a moment of handflailing panic, I manage to disengage the ascent guidance and mash the emergency "Just LAND SOMEWHERE!" button because the lander is now plummeting anyway, and despite its very recent hiccup, I trust the reflexes of mechjeb to get me down safely more than my own.
It doesn't steer me wrong, but the landing site is on a hillside and the lander tumps over. Fortunately I manage to RCS/SAS it right-side up again, and begin the liftoff... and this time, I realize...
... I don't have enough fuel to circularize the orbit. Not even if I only lift off to 20km, the lowest orbit I dare (any lower and you risk smacking a mountain at 2000 m/s).
I begin a desperate gambit. I burn all my fuel in the circularization maneuver, then blast away all my RCS thruster fuel to aft.
Still not going to make it... but I'm close. So close. Probably 40 delta v from a circular orbit.
Desperate gambit number two. Jebediah Kerman climbs out of the cockpit module, grabs every bit of data he can carry, and jumps up off the lander. Engaging his jetpack, he tries to muscle his way into an EVA orbit.
It's only when I "hear" the impact explosion of the lander that I realize I've done it.
Jebediah Kerman is in orbit... in only a spacesuit with a depressingly small reserve of monopropellant to guide his trajectory. Carrying probably thousands of points worth of scientific data.
Thus begins the rescue mission.
Remember that refueling transport that was docked to my munar orbital refueling station? It's got mechjeb, so it's got an autopilot. I fuel up its nacelles and decouple it from the rest of the structure.
Man, it's very tough to catch a guy with no spaceship as he tumbles through orbit, especially since mechjeb's not really into this sort of thing. Fortunately, I manage to close the distance manually to where mechjeb can take over and get me within 100m.
Using his last few drops of propellant, Jeb manages to reach the cockpit hatch. The precious scientific data is tucked safely inside.
So tonight I learned two things. First, I need to redesign a better lander, and second, mechjebs automatic intercept ascent guidance is buggy and not to be trusted. Oh, and a third thing - always store every trip's science data in the refueling station, don't take it back down to the surface where you might blow it up.
It's now past midnight, so tomorrow I'll take care of that, along with sending some kind of recovery transport to pick up Jeb and the data (since the refueling transport isn't designed for re-entry - no parachutes and engines useless in Kerbin's atmosphere/gravity).
It doesn't steer me wrong, but the landing site is on a hillside and the lander tumps over. Fortunately I manage to RCS/SAS it right-side up again, and begin the liftoff... and this time, I realize...
... I don't have enough fuel to circularize the orbit. Not even if I only lift off to 20km, the lowest orbit I dare (any lower and you risk smacking a mountain at 2000 m/s).
I begin a desperate gambit. I burn all my fuel in the circularization maneuver, then blast away all my RCS thruster fuel to aft.
Still not going to make it... but I'm close. So close. Probably 40 delta v from a circular orbit.
Desperate gambit number two. Jebediah Kerman climbs out of the cockpit module, grabs every bit of data he can carry, and jumps up off the lander. Engaging his jetpack, he tries to muscle his way into an EVA orbit.
It's only when I "hear" the impact explosion of the lander that I realize I've done it.
Jebediah Kerman is in orbit... in only a spacesuit with a depressingly small reserve of monopropellant to guide his trajectory. Carrying probably thousands of points worth of scientific data.
Thus begins the rescue mission.
Remember that refueling transport that was docked to my munar orbital refueling station? It's got mechjeb, so it's got an autopilot. I fuel up its nacelles and decouple it from the rest of the structure.
Man, it's very tough to catch a guy with no spaceship as he tumbles through orbit, especially since mechjeb's not really into this sort of thing. Fortunately, I manage to close the distance manually to where mechjeb can take over and get me within 100m.
Using his last few drops of propellant, Jeb manages to reach the cockpit hatch. The precious scientific data is tucked safely inside.
So tonight I learned two things. First, I need to redesign a better lander, and second, mechjebs automatic intercept ascent guidance is buggy and not to be trusted. Oh, and a third thing - always store every trip's science data in the refueling station, don't take it back down to the surface where you might blow it up.
It's now past midnight, so tomorrow I'll take care of that, along with sending some kind of recovery transport to pick up Jeb and the data (since the refueling transport isn't designed for re-entry - no parachutes and engines useless in Kerbin's atmosphere/gravity).
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GasBandit
Staff member
Nnnnot exactly. Nobody died, nobody was left on the surface, there were no alien martian prehumans... and I didn't have Jeb jump "at" anything other than just "must get higher, must achieve orbit... will worry about what happens then later!"
The only real similarity is the fortuitous foresight to have a fueled resupply craft already in orbit.
GasBandit
Staff member
Just a few screenshots of what I've been up to lately...
Here's the heavier, harder-to-tump-over lander I finished off the Mun with.
Here's the refueling station I've built around Kerbin this time. With the new Kerbodyne super heavy lifter rocket parts, it's much easier to get stuff into orbit. I had tons of fuel left over, so rather than just deposit the orange Rockomax tanks like I thought, I docked the whole durn fuel lifter. Twice. (minus the asparagus sections that fell off during liftoff)... and let me tell you it took a LOT of RCS thruster work to wrestle those leviathans into docking position, even with Mechjeb.
It also has a tug docked to it right now, which feels much more like an actual tug than my old game save's tug was, since it has the new claw attachment on the front and can grip any object at any place, not just hang on tenously by a docking port.
And finally, here's a shot of that tug in action, once I had totally drained one of the fuel boosters, I detached it from the station and pushed it slower to a reentry orbit with the tug.
(the tug's headlights are super bright)
Here's the heavier, harder-to-tump-over lander I finished off the Mun with.
Here's the refueling station I've built around Kerbin this time. With the new Kerbodyne super heavy lifter rocket parts, it's much easier to get stuff into orbit. I had tons of fuel left over, so rather than just deposit the orange Rockomax tanks like I thought, I docked the whole durn fuel lifter. Twice. (minus the asparagus sections that fell off during liftoff)... and let me tell you it took a LOT of RCS thruster work to wrestle those leviathans into docking position, even with Mechjeb.
It also has a tug docked to it right now, which feels much more like an actual tug than my old game save's tug was, since it has the new claw attachment on the front and can grip any object at any place, not just hang on tenously by a docking port.
And finally, here's a shot of that tug in action, once I had totally drained one of the fuel boosters, I detached it from the station and pushed it slower to a reentry orbit with the tug.
(the tug's headlights are super bright)
Ok, spent some time on this game this past weekend, and had some fun with it. My biggest frustration right now is that the process of building rockets is very exacting, and my mouse control is not, so if I'm even a little bit off on where I place something on a rocket, the whole thing topples over on the launch pad (ok, well, no - if I'm a little bit off it just doesn't fly straight. It takes being a moderate bit off for it to topple over). Is there a mod that takes care of this, or a setting I'm missing somewhere, or something?
GasBandit
Staff member
Here are some tips.
1- make sure you are connecting sections at their "snap-to" position. The easiest way to do this is to have your camera looking horizontally from the side, and move the mouse (with your section being moved) to the empty space below/above what you're trying to connect it to, and sort of move it around in the empty space until it "snaps" to where it is supposed to attach, as opposed to angling the camera and placing the mouse directly on the surface you want to attach the part to.
2- Symmetry is your friend. Make sure to use the "snap to angle" and automatic symmetry tools in the lower left hand corner to make sure that any sections you build out to the sides are at perfectly congruent angles and do not change the balance of the rocket. I find hexagonal symmetry generally the most useful.
3- even with all that, the "settling" of the rocket on the launchpad can sometimes cause problems. Pay close attention when launching, and as soon as the "physics" kick in on the simulation, hit T to turn on your SAS - assuming you have enough SAS modules (most command modules have them, but larger rockets will need supplimentary SAS wheels which, once researched, appear under the control tab in the building ui) - and this will make your rocket automatically attempt to keep your rocket pointed straight up and not falling over, be it on the pad or in flight. You can then use WASD to turn your rocket during flight, and SAS will attempt to halt rotation when you release the controls and hold the rocket on the course you set it. Once you research RCS thrusters and tanks, it becomes even better - very large rockets with multiple side-tanks/engines will almost assuredly need the oomph of RCS thrusters to keep from spinning out of control as the uneven fuel drain/slight imperfections in structural components start to tell during the liftoff burn. RCS turns on with the "R" key.
4- If you have engines/tanks on the sides, make sure you use plenty of struts to keep them from wobbling/splaying/torquing around. Left to its own devices, the superstructure of most rockets with nacelles/asparagus boosters/external solid fuel rocket boosters will bend and twist under duress. The struts will automatically give way appropriately during stage separation. So use those struts to attach the top and bottom of each external booster/tank to the main column, and also the top and bottom of each booster/tank to the ones adjacent. The symmetry tool can help make this fast and accurate.
5 - make sure you're using an engine with a gimbal. The first starter engine does not (I think it's called LV-T30?)... but almost immediately you'll get the next engine, the LV-T45 which has a 1 degree control gimbal. This will help correct errant flight during your burn (but not when the engine is powered down, obviously - you'll need SAS or RCS for that)
GasBandit
Staff member
Also, when placing those struts, remember triangles are your friends and squares are your enemies.
And when you're doing re-entry, once you've got yourself oriented properly, turn off your SAS/RCS before deploying your parachute - parachutes have been known to rip off the ship if SAS is fighting to keep it at an oblique angle to the direction of travel. Which makes for dead Kerbonauts usually.
And when you're doing re-entry, once you've got yourself oriented properly, turn off your SAS/RCS before deploying your parachute - parachutes have been known to rip off the ship if SAS is fighting to keep it at an oblique angle to the direction of travel. Which makes for dead Kerbonauts usually.
GasBandit
Staff member
Uh oh. Is it at least a circular orbit, or is it eccentric?
What'd you do, shoot for the moon and miss?
GasBandit
Staff member
As for myself, I've been trying to make a real honest-to-god spaceplane, despite not having researched all the spaceplane parts. And by real-honest-to-god I mean one that can attain orbit and return home... which means liquid fuel rockets instead of jets.
I tried perching a jet on the back of a rockomax rocket, but when it hits around 15km and the jet flames out, suddenly the thing becomes uncontrollable, doing flips faster and faster because the center of mass no longer matches the center of thrust.
So I said "screw it" and just started tacking all the wings that would fit on a jumbo rockomax. Used a skipper engine instead of a mainsail because it's got higher specific impulse (fuel efficiency), but that drops the Thrust/Weight ratio down under 1.0. I was hoping the wings would make up for that with some lift, but so far all I've managed to do is ram Kerbonauts into the water at the end of the runway at 120m/s (268mph) over and over.
I guess I'm gonna have to punt on that, and go get more science done... probably on Duna.
I tried perching a jet on the back of a rockomax rocket, but when it hits around 15km and the jet flames out, suddenly the thing becomes uncontrollable, doing flips faster and faster because the center of mass no longer matches the center of thrust.
So I said "screw it" and just started tacking all the wings that would fit on a jumbo rockomax. Used a skipper engine instead of a mainsail because it's got higher specific impulse (fuel efficiency), but that drops the Thrust/Weight ratio down under 1.0. I was hoping the wings would make up for that with some lift, but so far all I've managed to do is ram Kerbonauts into the water at the end of the runway at 120m/s (268mph) over and over.
I guess I'm gonna have to punt on that, and go get more science done... probably on Duna.
Spaceplanes are a real bitch. In all the time I've been playing, I've only ever gotten one that worked worth a damn.
If you're going to get up in orbit, you'll need a combination of liquid fuel engines and dual-fuel rockets. At 15-20K, it's hard to get enough air into the liquid fuel rocket, and you need to spam a few ram intakes on the thing. Even so, you'll never get into orbit, because there's no air in space..you'll have to switch to a bonafide rocket engine eventually.
If you're going to get up in orbit, you'll need a combination of liquid fuel engines and dual-fuel rockets. At 15-20K, it's hard to get enough air into the liquid fuel rocket, and you need to spam a few ram intakes on the thing. Even so, you'll never get into orbit, because there's no air in space..you'll have to switch to a bonafide rocket engine eventually.
GasBandit
Staff member
I've had good luck building regular jet planes. I find they are a lot simpler if you stick a reaction wheel in the middle and fly with SAS. But even on my old save, I barely managed to push 25km altitude with a whoooooooole lot of air intakes. So yeah, there's not much point in using jet engines at all, I'm finding. I had some crazy idea about hauling one over to Eve strapped to the back of a rocket, but even just getting it off kerbal seems more trouble than it is worth. Anyway it was really just a distraction to do something different after sucking every drop of science off of Mun before I started wading out into the rest of the solar system.
It's an eccentric orbit... I was actually just trying to orbit Kerbal, but I got a little bit carried away on my thrust amounts. Got a decent amount of science from it though, even with having to send the data back to Kerbal without re-landing.
GasBandit
Staff member
Man.. you had to REALLY overshoot to do that. Heh. Well, if you're not TOTALLY out of fuel, you stand a chance of recapturing him in a year. Or it might make for an interesting mission to try to send a refueling probe to him... if you remembered to put a docking port on his ship.
If not, I think the grabbing claw part actually lets you transfer fuel.
Well, the point in using jet engines is that they run for freaking ever on a load of fuel. It's evidently a lot easier to make single-stage-to-orbit vehicles using a combination of jets and rockets than any other way. One small jet tank to get you in the 20K's, and another small rocket to push you to orbit. Other than that, I haven't had a whole lot of use for space planes, and so haven't spent a lot of time on them.
I guess you'd need to master them if you really wanted to fly around on Eve or Laythe.
GasBandit
Staff member
Nope. And I'm also kind of disappointed the physics engine in KSP doesn't allow for "skipping" off the surface of water. KASPLOOBOOM.
Docking ports... yeah, I'm really looking forward to getting those later in the science tree.
GasBandit
Staff member
Welp, you know, there was one time I had to do a corrective maneuver but was out of fuel.. and what I did was I had the kerbonaut literally get out and push the ship from the side with his jetpack. It's hard to do accurately, but since you get replenished from a neverending source every time you go back inside the ship, if you start from far enough away, you could potentially really alter your orbit back into kerbal intercept.
That would be hilarious... and amazingly inane, I imagine. Maybe I'll send up another rocket and try to very gently nudge Bill back into Kerbal orbit.
GasBandit
Staff member
That'd be difficult, as the farther down the gravity well Bill falls, the faster he will be moving, and thus that much harder to intercept. Comes a point where it'd get as hard as trying to shoot a bullet at an already fired bullet. But what you might could do is jettison all stages possible so you're down to the lightest ship you can manage, and then just have Bill push it sideways until the return trip is once again in Kerbal's influence. It won't take much lateral force when you're millions of KM away. Then use Bill's pack again to circularize in high orbit (or at least attain orbit rather than escape again), then send another rocket out with an empty seat for him to take. Just be careful never to run out of propellant on any given EVA. Get back in to refuel frequently. Because if you run out, you're screwed, as you probably won't make it back inside the command module.
GasBandit
Staff member
Well, for future reference, you can also kill the ship from mission control, which kills the kerbonaut as well... but dead Kerbals come back to work after a couple days.
GasBandit
Staff member
I went back to Minmus with a refueling station and lander to finish scrubbing it clean of science in one big trip before I take the big step to the next planet... but the only thing I thought worth taking a screenshot of - I never looked around inside a hitchhiker crew module before....
GasBandit
Staff member
So having researched all the spaceplane research nodes after sciencing minmus as dry as mun, I tried building an orbital spaceplane again. I was elated to actually achieve circular orbit at 100km from a runway takeoff, thanks to the RAPIER engine which can switch between air-breathing jet and liquid/oxidizer rocket on the fly.
The problem is... on re-entry and landing, the weight characteristics of a nearly empty spaceplane are totally different from that of a fully fueled spaceplane, which throws the center of mass off from the center of lift... even with mechjeb assistance, the darn thing ended up doing the falling-leaf thing less than 100 km from the runway.
The problem is... on re-entry and landing, the weight characteristics of a nearly empty spaceplane are totally different from that of a fully fueled spaceplane, which throws the center of mass off from the center of lift... even with mechjeb assistance, the darn thing ended up doing the falling-leaf thing less than 100 km from the runway.
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Maybe you need to install some "ballast" weight on the ship to keep it's center of mass where you want it?
GasBandit
Staff member
It'll be challenging to figure out how to move the ballast forward as the fuel drains to the rear. The ships generally don't have moving parts (other than things like retractable landing gears and solar panels, neither of which weigh enough to matter), and pumping fuel forward during powered flight in a craft with nacelles is a good way to unbalance and go into an unrecoverable spin.
Meanwhile, I'm still back here on Kerbin, trying to land my first successful science mission to Minmus. I mean, I've had a mission there, collected some science from my science lab in orbit, and managed to have enough fuel to get all the way back to Kerbin... but I forgot to put landing legs on my vehicle, and hit the ground at 6.8m/s, causing my labs to separate from the control pod and fail to count toward that launch. Still, this game is a lot more fun once you get some of the orbital math figured out.
http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/25823-0-23-0-23-5-TAC-Fuel-Balancer-v2-3-22Dec
I hear it's all the rage among space plane guys
GasBandit
Staff member
I've actually done very little math in this game, especially in the beginning missions. It's all about using the map and the maneuver nodes. When you lift off, and start your gravity turn at 8km, switch to map mode with M and bring up the nav control bubble from the bottom of the screen. Continue to thrust at 45 degree incline, using your mouse to watch your apoapsis grow. When your apoapsis gets to be about 80-85 km, stop thrusting and click the apoapsis, and create a new maneuver node. then drag the "forward" widget on it away from the center until the dotted orange line becomes a circle and the periapsis appears, then keep doing it until the periapsis is also 80-85km. This will put a blue "Target" on your nav bubble, along with a countdown and a deltaV meter. When the countdown gets near zero (say around T minus 5 or 10 sec), do a full throttle burn pointed at the blue target until the DeltaV meter empties. You just circularized your orbit with no math.
Then to get to moon or minmus, click your orbit around 90 degrees from directly pointing at them to make a new maneuver node, drag out the "forward" widget and wait until the new orange apoapsis reaches the orbit of your destination. Then drag the position of the maneuver node back and forth along your orbit until it changes in an obvious way to show you're entering the target's gravity well. Then repeat the above nav burn process again for the new blue target. You just hohmann transferred to mun/minmus with no math.
Once you reach your target's orbit, thrust sideways until you've got a periapsis and your orbit path doesn't have you directly crashing into the surface. Try to make your periapsis 20-40 km. Then add a new maneuver node at your periapsis, and drag out the "Backwards" widget until the orange path becomes circular around the planet. This will give you the blue target for your retrograde burn to circularize. Burn it at the appointed time, no math needed.
I think you get the picture.
Oh, and as far as your science lab goes, once you do the experiment, have your Kerbonaut do an EVA, climb/jetpack down next to the science module, right click it and have him collect the data. Then he can go put it in the command module. This not only keeps it safe in the case of your above scenario, but it allows you to now design rockets that incorporate a stage separation between the command capsule and the entire rest of the rocket. So when you're re-entering Kerbin atmosphere, you can jettison all but the command capsule, which drastically reduces your mass and makes you slow down much further, and (if you're using a Mk 1 command capsule) only require one parachute to land safely even with no landing legs or engine (if you're using a Mk 3 command capsule, I recommend both the size appropriate nose parachute and a pair of symmetrically placed surface mount parachutes).[DOUBLEPOST=1401890634,1401890481][/DOUBLEPOST]
Droooool.http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/25823-0-23-0-23-5-TAC-Fuel-Balancer-v2-3-22Dec
I hear it's all the rage among space plane guys