The Zoe Quinn sex-for-reviews scandal

Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't want to censor anyone, and I've never wanted someone's posts edited or banned really for anything other than blatant slurs. Just pointing it out so maybe you think before you say stuff like that, since it doesn't make the most inviting / safe place for women when every conversation about any woman includes multiple judgments on if they're fuckable or not. Like someone said earlier, that's youtube comments grade bullshit. I wouldn't be posting here if that was standard.

edit: adding another thing - My original comment was mainly just upset at the internet at large, but there were also a couple here that spurred it too
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

I don't care about her posting naked pictures of her on line. People pirating them are no better or worse than anyone pirating any porn, though, and considering the content of the NSFW board ,we've all done that :p
If she slept with a journalist to get better reviews, frankly, that's not much better or worse than the big AAA developers with their booth babes up 'till a few years ago - some of them were literally cosplaying prostitutes paid to "convince" the right people, and even those who aren't/weren,'t were there with the express purpose to make people think better of the game they're attached to. Using your looks or someone else's looks to get ahead isn't new, or rare, or anything. I don't think it's right, mind you, but it's nothing special, and if I had to slap everyone who ever slept with someone to get ahead, 'd have a bloody sore hand. And fuck, half of the indie developers would probably gladly fuck someone if it meant their game got released with good reviews.
What I do take objection to is her and friends trying to squash down the stories - it doesn't usually work anymore these days ,and it comes off as trying to hide your own issues....plus, it actively damages the work of others.
As for the whole mysoginy thing, eh. It's a shame she "gave" the "opposition" more ammo in the whole "women in games, right" debate if you want to call it that. but whether any of this is actually *true* doesn't make a lot of difference there.

I don't care whether or not she slept with some guys in exchange for reviews - pop stars have done it, movie actresses and actors have done it, directors have done it, fuck, I'm fairly sure my last boss did it. I do care that other people's work was hidden, deleted, or put down to protect her. Whether that was just nepotism or sex-based favor returns doesn't really factor in.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
What I think is funny is that every guy who says the situation isn't about sex only talks about the sex. The five guys thing was from that video where the guy said he didn't care about the sex but goes on and on and on...

As to her looks, my "ew" was about that very thing. I think she's comic store cute but that's about it. Sue me. You put out naked pictures of yourself, I'm well within my rights to comment about the pictures.
 
Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Just pointing it out so maybe you think before you say stuff like that, since it doesn't make the most inviting / safe place for women when every conversation about any woman includes multiple judgments on if they're fuckable or not.
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(Shrug) If you don't want someone to comment on your n00dz, don't post them. That simple. I seriously doubt that my comment ("Her nudie pics aren't too hard on the eyes.") makes for a hostile environment for women on this forum.

Sizing up someone (opposite or same gender, depending on your preferences) is a non-gender-specific human trait that has existed since the dawn of man, and will continue long after you're dead. You're pissing in the wind simply for the sake of white knighting and shitting up another thread. Go bark up someone else's tree.
 
bhamv3

bhamv3

Y'know, I feel like even though she put her pics online herself, she's still entitled to feel upset when people distribute and look at them when she doesn't want them to. She may have no legal or practical way of stopping people from looking and distributing, but I can completely understand feeling violated over it.

Sort of like, "There are certain people I've given tacit permission to view my nude pics, and all of you guys aren't on the list."
 
figmentPez

figmentPez

Staff member
bhamv3 said:
Y'know, I feel like even though she put her pics online herself, she's still entitled to feel upset when people distribute and look at them when she doesn't want them to. She may have no legal or practical way of stopping people from looking and distributing, but I can completely understand feeling violated over it.

Sort of like, "There are certain people I've given tacit permission to view my nude pics, and all of you guys aren't on the list."
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There's a big difference between "people are violating copyright law by pirating my autobiography, when they should be purchasing a copy from Amazon" and "people are violating my privacy by downloading my personal diary, which was never intended for distribution."
 
Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
I have to admit that this conversation (not just here) does more to remind me of the rampant immaturity and sexism in gaming/geekdom than it makes me worried about a breach of journalism ethics.

Like I said in my first post. This "developer" has no actual development footprint. She doesn't actually matter. But because she's a woman perceptions get all screwed up, in many different ways. We think she's some important anchor in the indie dev community. She's not. Then we get super aggressively butt hurt about what, in the real world of journalism, is absolutely a breach of ethics but not the worst in the world. Yet because it's a woman it's HUGE FUCKING NEWS.

And then there's the nudes. Same thing happened with Mintchip from EvE. In this case it's a bit different because she supplied them. But we demanded them. We always demand them. Whenever we read a story about how Phil Fish is a cocksucker do we immediately go look to see if he's got a crew cut or a turtleneck down below?

This last point may be less about gaming, I think we do this for any woman in the public light, but still.

I can't put my finger on it exactly but this whole thing just does more to make me think how fucked up the men are in this community than it makes me worry about declining ethical standards.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Necronic said:
Like I said in my first post. This "developer" has no actual development footprint. She doesn't actually matter. But because she's a woman perceptions get all screwed up, in many different ways. We think she's some important anchor in the indie dev community. She's not. Then we get super aggressively butt hurt about what, in the real world of journalism, is absolutely a breach of ethics but not the worst in the world. Yet because it's a woman it's HUGE FUCKING NEWS.
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I disagree, it'd still have been news if it was a man using personal relationships to try to stepladder his career, torpedoing other projects for causes he purports to champion, abusing DMCA takedowns, and manufacturing fake internet "attacks" on himself to drum up sympathy/support/publicity, all while having no actual talent or skill in the area in which he's claiming to have a career.
 
Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

Necronic said:
And then there's the nudes. Same thing happened with Mintchip from EvE. In this case it's a bit different because she supplied them. But we demanded them. We always demand them. Whenever we read a story about how Phil Fish is a cocksucker do we immediately go look to see if he's got a crew cut or a turtleneck down below?
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If it were a dude, I'd have gone and looked anyway. I don't think it has anything to do with "this community" than it has to do with "people wanna see nudes of people they've heard of." And it's not a problem specific to men, though we are likely the greater offenders. It's certainly not some character flaw specific to gamers.

Honestly, if someone said there were nudes of you on some website, I'd go look. How many non-interested people clicked on that prank link I posted so long ago, where I was joking about showing my dick? I can guarantee that forumites of both genders did.

bhamv3 said:
Y'know, I feel like even though she put her pics online herself, she's still entitled to feel upset when people distribute and look at them when she doesn't want them to. She may have no legal or practical way of stopping people from looking and distributing, but I can completely understand feeling violated over it.
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I have less compunction about viewing Ms. Quinn's nudes than I had viewing Scarlett Johansson's. With Scarlett's, they were a clear violation of privacy: They weren't intended for any kind of mass distribution--they were private pics swiped from her email/phone. And yet, like millions of other people (including many of us here), I looked at them. Ms. Quinn is mostly bitching that her pay-for-play private pics have gotten leaked all over, and I have no real sympathy. Porn piracy is rampant on the internet. I mean, really, who pays for porn these days?

Mostly, I think the whole thing is a big mountain out of a molehill.
 
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Dave

Dave

Staff member
GasBandit said:
I disagree, it'd still have been news if it was a man using personal relationships to try to stepladder his career, torpedoing other projects for causes he purports to champion, abusing DMCA takedowns, and manufacturing fake internet "attacks" on himself to drum up sympathy/support/publicity, all while having no actual talent or skill in the area in which he's claiming to have a career.
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If it were a man we'd never have heard about it. Of course, guys don't usually play the victim card as hard as she did, but that's another can o' worms.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Dave said:
If it were a man we'd never have heard about it. Of course, guys don't usually play the victim card as hard as she did, but that's another can o' worms.
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I think we would have, if the guy's "friends" deleted 12000 comments on reddit.
 
Espy

Espy

Yeah, this whole thing still reeks of an excuse for the creepy, misogynistic underbelly (or maybe foundation?) of the "geek/gaming" community to validate their misogynistic views on women. It's one of the reasons I struggle to identify with that community.

@Charlie Don't Surf Don't worry man, you are right on. I think Necronic said it best when he said:

Necronic said:
I have to admit that this conversation (not just here) does more to remind me of the rampant immaturity and sexism in gaming/geekdom than it makes me worried about a breach of journalism ethics.

I can't put my finger on it exactly but this whole thing just does more to make me think how fucked up the men are in this community than it makes me worry about declining ethical standards.
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Damn straight.
 
Bowielee

Bowielee

So, I seem to recall a huge uproar a few years back involving Tim Buckly throwing another one of his epic hissy fits and there being nudes of him distributed around the net.

No one seemed to care how fuckable he was when that happened. So I'm going to go ahead and say that CDS does have a point in regards to women being treated differently than men when it comes to sexual matters.
 
Espy

Espy

Wait, did I miss someone arguing that society (or especially the geek/gaming community) treats men and women equally in regards to sexual matters?

crazy-talk.gif
 
CrimsonSoul

CrimsonSoul

Bowielee said:
So, I seem to recall a huge uproar a few years back involving Tim Buckly throwing another one of his epic hissy fits and there being nudes of him distributed around the net.

No one seemed to care how fuckable he was when that happened. So I'm going to go ahead and say that CDS does have a point in regards to women being treated differently than men when it comes to sexual matters.
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Really? I thought people were talking about how small his little Tim was?
 
Tinwhistler

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
Tilting at windmills you say...

I thought you were responding directly to him, too, actually.
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I find it funny and ironic how my comment (which I tried to make fairly innocent) was the least important part of my post, and yet Charlie has managed to use it to turn this entire thread into commentary about Quinn's nudes--the very thing he's railing against. Good job there Charlie. :p
 
Covar

Covar

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you that this shitstorm originated because of questionable ethics on a Gawker site. I can hardly believe it.
 
Jay

Jay

Let's chill about this and take a step back folks.

Let's be honest with ourselves. If Zoe Quinn was a man... would she actually be relevant? Most probably not. She's simply a woman in a job domain that is evolving fast of the the last few years with many immature entities still embedded there and she knows this full well and plays her cards to get it her way.

I know it. You know it.

What is she really then when it's all said and done?

An insignificant indie Dev that many don't even think much of her game at all. This opinion alone wouldn't matter if this game was made by a man, a woman or heck a fish. People are currently watching Street Fighter 2 VS games between fishes swimming in a fish tank and consider it more of a game than Depression Quest. People enjoy different things for sure but to have so many dislike that game? I was curious and after viewing a Let's Play video, YEAAAAA, not good. Yet, somehow the woman card somehow came up... how convenient. Is she the only woman indie dev out there then? A rare gem in a sea of penii. Absolutely not. For example Rebuild 3 had a Kickstarter, woman Dev, in the same situation. Last I read, was going fine. Dev knows their stuff. Multiple games out. All liked. Doing well. No one went around waving woman making this game flags.So, why is Zoe so special? Because her game wasn't popular? Or was it HER?

What else is she that's relevant then? Someone who allegedly sleeps around on her SO with many lovers? It's scummy if it's true but that doesn't matter much. Though the fact some of the alleged are people in the video game media industry does raise a few eyebrows.

What then? The fact she put up a few hundred nude pics of herself online for a pay to access website? Irrelevant, though it's something I'm sure most people in the public eye wouldn't do. Think about it though, when's the last time you saw a male game Dev put up some nude pics of himself on a pay per subscribe website in the decades of game industry?

So in the end what is this all about? Pretty much smokes and mirrors across the board. From those who claim a huge injustice was done by her supposed slutty ways/feminism/media favoritism, from the white knights getting involved to defend the vag and from her own behavior before, during and probably after this incident.

In the end... this isn't a very relevant subject to the gaming industry and everyone can form their own opinion on these matters.

Mine?

She doesn't matter much to me but I certainly do have my opinion of her. It's not very flattering. All I have to say is that she has caused a lot of harm to certain people and won't take her blame for what she's done. The charity thing she killed off for no reason? Yeah. She's a huckster. She has an agenda. This is known. She's a scummy person that takes advantage of others, of situations and is quick to play the woman card. Hate it. I HATE IT. I don't have a single problem with women being in the industry, nor women gamers as well (I hope Leyla plays games with me when she's older) but I certainly have problems with how select few behave that ultimately make others who don't behave this way on edge. Why can't women gracefully come into the industry and pay their dues like EVERYONE ELSE? From the Anitas who blow her own smokes and mirrors to play the woman card, to this fiasco to the Dina who became a community manager to a reboot of the Megaman franchise... but never played any of the games... something is up.

Can you imagine a guy doing any of this?

I think not.

Double standards cut both ways.
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
Jay said:
So in the end what is this all about? Pretty much smokes and mirrors across the board. From those who claim a huge injustice was done by her supposed slutty ways/feminism/media favoritism, from the white knights getting involved to defend the vag and from her own behavior before, during and probably after this incident.

In the end... this isn't a very relevant subject to the gaming industry and everyone can form their own opinion on these matters.
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Actually, it sets back women in gaming, and puts another nail in the coffin of "gaming journalism." But you're right, it probably wouldn't have sparked any notice at all if not for white knights flexing internet authoritah turning reddit into page after page after page of this -

reddit deleted comments.jpg


Thousands of that.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Jay said:
She doesn't matter much to me but I certainly do have my opinion of her. It's not very flattering. All I have to say is that she has caused a lot of harm to certain people and won't take her blame for what she's done. The charity thing she killed off for no reason? Yeah. She's a huckster. She has an agenda. This is known. She's a scummy person that takes advantage of others, of situations and is quick to play the woman card. Hate it. I HATE IT. I don't have a single problem with women being in the industry, nor women gamers as well (I hope Leyla plays games with me when she's older) but I certainly have problems with how select few behave that ultimately make others who don't behave this way on edge. Why can't women gracefully come into the industry and pay their dues like EVERYONE ELSE? From the Anitas who blow her own smokes and mirrors to play the woman card, to this fiasco to the Dina who became a community manager to a reboot of the Megaman franchise... but never played any of the games... something is up.
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As much as I think Sarkesian is a hack, I at least have no doubt that she's taking this seriously and is passionate about her goals. She's not in this to get famous because she was already well known before she started her videos on games. She's not in this to get rich because she already would be if she were. She's in this to make a point and I can respect THAT, if not her body of work.
 
Charlie Don't Surf

Charlie Don't Surf

well, I'm not going to write a dissertation on all the misogyny in that Jay-post, but just the greatest hits, really, referring to girls as "the vag", really?

also this has nothing to do with looking at her nudes? My underlined comment is exasperation at everyone making value judgments on her attractiveness, not clicking the pictures.

I'm gonna spin this off into another thread - maybe this comic explaining stuff? Might make sense. http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/ It made the rounds a little earlier this month.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

Y'know what really bothered me about the nude pictures site?
how often do you masturbate: -> this is a question and should have a question mark.
straight / gay / bi?: -> this isn't and shouldn't
movies your into: -> ARGHWARGARBL

And of course the ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME.


...Yes, I'm aware I'm paying attention to the wrong things. Sorry 'bout that.
 
Jay

Jay

Notice how Charlie fell for my trap card. I used 2 genitalia examples, guess which one was white knighted?
 
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