[News] The USA Police State will never satisfy its lust for beating, gassing, and imprisoning minorities
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
GasBandit
Staff member
The question stands. Ok, Let's say 10 is too much and 1 is too little. Where's "enough?" And what supports that claim?
https://twitter.com/JulianCummings/status/502541265335234561
No fractured eye socket or even a bruised eye socket for the honorable, still-getting-paid on administrative leave, Officer Wilson.
No fractured eye socket or even a bruised eye socket for the honorable, still-getting-paid on administrative leave, Officer Wilson.
Rubber bullet guy has an unnamed source...
Read, and your point?
Bowie, you're an intelligent guy. Put yourself in a situation, REALLY put yourself in the shoes of an officer.
You're responding to a call of a disorderly suspect, armed with a knife. You arrive Onscene, the man is there, brandishing his weapon. You keep your distance, as you're trained to. The man continues to advance on you. Your heart jackhammers in your chest. Your vision blackens around the edges as your primordial brain begins disabling your peripheral functions in favor of those required to keep your body moving. Your mind races as you shout loud verbal commands: "drop the knife! Do it now! Come on, man, it doesn't have to be like this!" But still he advances, rapidly, charging you or your partner.
Can you draw a taser? Sure! If you're thinking on it, and are certain you can disable him with that shot. But you're being presented with lethal force - and you're trained to respond to such with lethal force in kind.
It is scientifically proven that under stress, the mind resorts to the lowest level of training. Your lizard brain knows that the gun WILL stop the threat. And you're not trained to aim for arms or legs - under extreme stress, a person is lucky to hit center mass.
I have been in a situation where I've had to be ready to shoot to defend another officer's life. I've also tased a consumer who had just slit his own throat with a box-cutter, but was wielding the knife and threatening medical and police personnel trying to assist.
I've seen both sides of it. Neither is pretty.
Also, apologies to all for my outburst the other day. And while I don't think it was necessary, I accept Charlie's apology, and appreciate all of you who spoke on my behalf. I blame the tiredness, stress from work, and personal nature of this subject.
You're responding to a call of a disorderly suspect, armed with a knife. You arrive Onscene, the man is there, brandishing his weapon. You keep your distance, as you're trained to. The man continues to advance on you. Your heart jackhammers in your chest. Your vision blackens around the edges as your primordial brain begins disabling your peripheral functions in favor of those required to keep your body moving. Your mind races as you shout loud verbal commands: "drop the knife! Do it now! Come on, man, it doesn't have to be like this!" But still he advances, rapidly, charging you or your partner.
Can you draw a taser? Sure! If you're thinking on it, and are certain you can disable him with that shot. But you're being presented with lethal force - and you're trained to respond to such with lethal force in kind.
It is scientifically proven that under stress, the mind resorts to the lowest level of training. Your lizard brain knows that the gun WILL stop the threat. And you're not trained to aim for arms or legs - under extreme stress, a person is lucky to hit center mass.
I have been in a situation where I've had to be ready to shoot to defend another officer's life. I've also tased a consumer who had just slit his own throat with a box-cutter, but was wielding the knife and threatening medical and police personnel trying to assist.
I've seen both sides of it. Neither is pretty.
Also, apologies to all for my outburst the other day. And while I don't think it was necessary, I accept Charlie's apology, and appreciate all of you who spoke on my behalf. I blame the tiredness, stress from work, and personal nature of this subject.
Other things which have been tried: Net guns, high-pressure sticky toothpaste-like dispensers (think "The Trapster/Paste-pot Pete"), bola throwers, water cannons, sound cannons, etc. Many, MANY things have been tried, it is just about impossible to make something "non-lethal," so "less lethal" is as good as it gets.
Ah, the paradox of the heap.
--Patrick
I have never suggested that they should not have responded with gunfire. My father was police officer, and he's the one who taught me to shoot guns in the first place. I used to practice on the sheriff office paper targets. I understand that a couple of shots to center mass are standard procedure.
Unloading into a suspect who is already on the ground from a few gunshots without a gun is excessive.
In re: excessive use of force.
On third shift, in my institution, there have been (before I moved up there) a couple of attempts at youth "hiding" in the bathroom (or some unlocked closet or office) and then attempting to overpower the single third shift staff in the building. It is the primary reason why there is no single key for any staff office or room in each living unit.
I have gone over this in my brain multiple times. I have come to the following conclusion, and I've even verbalized it to myself at night. If a youth is out of his/her room without permission when I am the only staff in the building at the time, I will be making three assumptions:
1. The youth is intent on attempting to escape or leave the building;
2. To do so, the youth is likely to employ some sort of weapon or use of physical force against me;
3. I have the right to act within my level of training to prevent him/her from doing so - up to and including severe incapacitation methods. (I do not carry a gun while I am on grounds, nor do any LEO's; we have too many youth who have attempted to resist arrest and grab the guns of cops as part of their charges.)
Such an event has never happened to me, either at EAS or here at LHS/CLS. I pray that it never will, and I make sure every night that it won't.
On third shift, in my institution, there have been (before I moved up there) a couple of attempts at youth "hiding" in the bathroom (or some unlocked closet or office) and then attempting to overpower the single third shift staff in the building. It is the primary reason why there is no single key for any staff office or room in each living unit.
I have gone over this in my brain multiple times. I have come to the following conclusion, and I've even verbalized it to myself at night. If a youth is out of his/her room without permission when I am the only staff in the building at the time, I will be making three assumptions:
1. The youth is intent on attempting to escape or leave the building;
2. To do so, the youth is likely to employ some sort of weapon or use of physical force against me;
3. I have the right to act within my level of training to prevent him/her from doing so - up to and including severe incapacitation methods. (I do not carry a gun while I am on grounds, nor do any LEO's; we have too many youth who have attempted to resist arrest and grab the guns of cops as part of their charges.)
Such an event has never happened to me, either at EAS or here at LHS/CLS. I pray that it never will, and I make sure every night that it won't.
Officer "Go fuck yourself" has been suspended indefinitely.
And some stuff I wish I hadn't read, these are messages in donations in the Officer Wilson fundraising campaign. For the record, I know no one can choose who donates to them; this is just some sick shit.
"Waste of good ammo. It’s my privilege to buy you a replacement box."
"All self-respecting whites have a moral responsibility to support our growing number of martyrs to the failed experiment called diversity."
"I thank all Police, you are the ‘Thin Blue Line’ protecting normal Americans from aggressive and entitled primitive savages. America is surely at the tipping point."
"All self-respecting whites have a moral responsibility to support our growing number of martyrs to the failed experiment called diversity."
"I thank all Police, you are the ‘Thin Blue Line’ protecting normal Americans from aggressive and entitled primitive savages. America is surely at the tipping point."
Dave
Staff member
When it comes to guns, the first thing they teach you is to go for body mass. Going for an arm, leg, head, or gun hand (groan) is almost impossible on a moving target. My guess is the shots that hit the head were not on purpose. Not that it matters, mind you, just observations from a guy who can shoot.
Tell that to your cat.
Yes. You go for center of mass not only because it is easier to hit your target, but also because hitting your target makes it less likely that you will overpenetrate or miss and hit other things that are not your target (property, bystanders, etc.). Leave the fancy precision shooting to the S.W.A.T. folks.
--Patrick
I would argue that drawing or even merely exhibiting your weapon means that you are advertising your willingness to kill. I know that States put more restriction on concealed v. open carry, but it seems to me that concealed carry = "Take it easy, we're all friends here," whereas open carry = "Don't be getting any stupid ideas involving me or I might kill you," i.e., poison arrow frog.
--Patrick
Sigh at one of my sisters, whose solution to police brutality is that people stop filming it, and just make videos of when police do good things. While I do think good police work should be highlighted, I think really she's just tired of seeing the videos everywhere since the Ferguson stuff began.
In other news, Ferguson protest leaders sound like they're getting ready to pack it in at this rate, saying they've shown what's going on, can't keep staying out all night getting gassed and harassed. Can't blame them; I couldn't have been out there in this shit for so many days.
In other news, Ferguson protest leaders sound like they're getting ready to pack it in at this rate, saying they've shown what's going on, can't keep staying out all night getting gassed and harassed. Can't blame them; I couldn't have been out there in this shit for so many days.
This reminds me of a conversation in a Discworld book, I think The Fifth Elephant, when police guy Vimes discovers someone is an assassin with a hidden weapon. Vimes calls it a weapon meant to kill people. The assassin says that all weapons are meant to kill people. Vimes disagrees, saying that the big swords, axes, etc. that most people carry openly prevent killing because this way people openly tell each other they're dangerous. A hidden weapon only has the purpose of killing someone, since it doesn't give away that the person holding it is lethal.
We already assume every gun we haven't inspected is loaded, so why don't we just as automatically treat every uninspected person as though they are carrying? Or at a minimum assume that they could potentially kill us. It's 100% true, you know, even if they aren't carrying. Visible weapons = ++Anxiety. Civilization may ultimately be a lie we tell ourselves, but it is one that permits us to play nice with one another. Why deliberately shatter that illusion?
--Patrick
I already assume anyone can kill anyone. It's why I tell my wife to stop screaming at people who do stupid shit at a stoplight. The last time, the woman ahead got out of her car, made some hand sign, and got back in. That hand could've easily held a gun. One day it's gonna be the wrong person who doesn't care about the consequences under the law.
I think you've just described the entire TSA training manual.
The thing the manual leaves out, though, is that since it's so universally true JUST GET OVER IT and live your life already rather than punishing people for being "scary*." If you advertise that you can't feel safe around someone until and unless you've anally violated them (literally or figuratively), then you are the problem**.
--Patrick
*Not because they're actually scary (regardless whether they are or not), but because they are "other/unknown."
**Spoiler alert: I think the TSA, as it is now, is a useless and egregious waste of time and should be dissolved.
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GasBandit
Staff member
Has anyone here disagreed with the St Louis shooting? or anywhere?
I ran a small experiment with this. I watched the video with the sound down and paused at the point I thought "Powell is no longer a threat." I then turned up the sound and counted the gunshots. So, my totally subjective answer on how many shots are enough -- "At least 4 fewer shots than were taken."
It also had nothing to do with the shooting of Michael Brown.
GasBandit
Staff member
"There are a lot of racist people in America, just not me or anyone I know" - NY Times Poll.
