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The USA Police State will never satisfy its lust for beating, gassing, and imprisoning minorities

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Aug 14, 2014#1

Charlie Don't Surf

Aug 14, 2014#2

Charlie Don't Surf

One more quickly - a quote from Martin Luther King, Jr.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

Aug 14, 2014#3

Bowielee

Aug 14, 2014#4

PatrThom

Charlie, you make it sound like a police state would only be interested in beating/gassing/imprisoning minorities.

That's racist.

--Patrick

Aug 14, 2014#5

Charlie Don't Surf

Bowielee said:
View attachment 15626

wait, is any of the above not true? Other than the thread title which is, admittedly, my opinion[DOUBLEPOST=1407998910,1407998806][/DOUBLEPOST]

PatrThom said:
Charlie, you make it sound like a police state would only be interested in beating/gassing/imprisoning minorities.

That's racist.

--Patrick

I. uh. Yes. It is. I agree. Thanks.

Aug 14, 2014#6

Bowielee

Y'know Charlie, I know you're just a troll, so I shouldn't rise to the bait, but your shenanigans are just beyond the pale. YOU are making these issues into a joke, which completely devalues the actual struggles people are going through.

You sicken me, and I just wish you would fucking leave this board already.

Addendum: And keep this in mind. I've gone to bat for you on multiple occasions, but man... you are a cancer to your own cause. Though, I don't truly believe that you have a cause, just an itch to piss people off.

Aug 14, 2014#7

Charlie Don't Surf

This is another good thing I read on the subject: http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/08/things-stop-distracted-black-person-gets-murdered-police/[DOUBLEPOST=1408000428,1408000259][/DOUBLEPOST]

MLK said:
the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;"

Aug 14, 2014#8

DarkAudit

Reported. Not for Charlie being Charlie, but because this conversation has been going on for days in the sticky thread.

Aug 14, 2014#9

Charlie Don't Surf

Eh I disagree, I think this merits its own thread now. I can also keep bumping it every so often when there's an especially egregious piece of police brutality (this won't be the last)

Aug 14, 2014#10

ThatNickGuy

I think it merits its own thread. Just not with this kind of presentation, because the way Charlie is presenting will just further piss people off and stray away from the legitimate discussion to be had about all this. Because Charlie.

It may be a race issue, but it's also largely just a human rights issue. Just from some of the live videos last night, we saw dozens of rights being trounced by the Ferguson police.

Aug 14, 2014#11

sixpackshaker

At least here we have proof that the USofA is not a Police State.

Aug 14, 2014#12

Dave

Looters are opportunists and show up everywhere. But to focus on that is wrong. The looters aren't the ones who are protesting. that's like saying all fans of sports team X are bad because some people used the games as an excuse to loot.

Straw man.

Aug 14, 2014#13

Dave

stienman said:
The looters are the ones causing the police to attend every protest. No looting = peaceful protests with no police intervention.

But I got my answer: This is not the correct thread to talk about the looting and arson that's occurring in conjunction with the "peaceful" demonstrations.

So it's the looter's fault. Not the over-militarization or overreaction of police? Assaulting and detaining members of the press is because of the looters? A no-fly zone to stop news helicopters is because of the looters?

I'm not saying this is not the place to discuss it, I'm telling you you're wrong.

Aug 14, 2014#14

AshburnerX

Well at least SOMETHING is happening in Ferguson: Missouri Governor says St. Louis PD to be relieved of command, handing over activities to State Police and Federal Authorities.

So just as long as the ATF stays far, FAR away from this... I think things are going to calm down. That said, unless several high ranking members of the St. Louis eat their badges and lose their benefits, we're just going to have another riot a year from now.

Aug 14, 2014#15

DarkAudit

Dave said:
So it's the looter's fault. Not the over-militarization or overreaction of police? Assaulting and detaining members of the press is because of the looters? A no-fly zone to stop news helicopters is because of the looters?

I'm not saying this is not the place to discuss it, I'm telling you you're wrong.

That argument also destroys the position of the rabid 2nd amendmenters. The police are doing exactly what you claim to be arming yourselves for, but you use the looters as an excuse to come down on the side of the big, bad gubmint?

If I were Charlie, I'd say it was because y'all's racist.

Aug 14, 2014#16

Charlie Don't Surf

Of course you want to talk about the looting. Steinman, you are the platonic ideal of the white moderate in MLK's quote earlier.

http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/08/things-stop-distracted-black-person-gets-murdered-police/

see #1 and 2

Aug 14, 2014#17

Dave

As long as you don't touch them or threaten them, you can yell all you want. It's perfectly legal.

Aug 14, 2014#18

Dave

False. If you are in a public area (unless being detained for a crime), you can go where ever you want. They aren't kings. They are OUR employees.

Aug 14, 2014#19

Dave

Define "easy reach". You sound like I'm chest bumping him.

I'm saying if I'm on a sidewalk and a cop says, "Get off the sidewalk." unless there's a crime being committed, I don't have to do it.

Aug 14, 2014#20

GasBandit

It's clear that there needs to be indictments handed down on many FPD officers, as well as those within and outside the department who give the orders. If the state stepping in doesn't fix the abuses, it'll be proof that the "rabid 2nd amendmenters" that DA hates more than his gout and piles combined were right all along.

Aug 14, 2014#21

AshburnerX

Yeah... the police DO have the authority to shut down areas or to obstruct your path, but it has to be approved by a judge I think, unless it's an emergency.

Aug 14, 2014#22

Dave

AshburnerX said:
Yeah... the police DO have the authority to shut down areas or to obstruct your path, but it has to be approved by a judge I think, unless it's an emergency.

And there has to be a crime being committed. During protests there is not (well, usually).

The fact that cops think they can do these things and that people let them are part of the problems we are having today.

Aug 14, 2014#23

Charlie Don't Surf

This quibbling is missing the most important detail that another young black person has been killed by police. I left it out of the thread title to seem slightly less inflammatory.

Aug 14, 2014#24

Terrik

Dave said:
And there has to be a crime being committed. During protests there is not (well, usually).

The fact that cops think they can do these things and that people let them are part of the problems we are having today.

People let them because there is greater risk than reward. I wouldn't want something like that on a criminal record. I don't want to have to go to court to explain why I decided not to get off a sidewalk at an officer's direction--even if I think the officer was in the wrong. It's just easier to "get off the sidewalk" than not to, and I think that's why most people do it.

Aug 14, 2014#25

Covar

GasBandit said:
It's clear that there needs to be indictments handed down on many FPD officers, as well as those within and outside the department who give the orders. If the state stepping in doesn't fix the abuses, it'll be proof that the "rabid 2nd amendmenters" that DA hates more than his gout and piles combined were right all along.

I don't think DA would be satisfied until you start shooting cops.

Aug 14, 2014#26

DarkAudit

Covar said:
I don't think DA would be satisfied until you start shooting cops.

He hasn't expressed his intent in so many words, but obvious the desire is there. Must be waiting until they come for him specifically. The rest of us poor dumb bastards can just suck eggs.

Aug 14, 2014#27

Charlie Don't Surf

Remember when a bunch of white people in Nevada pointed guns at federal officers and nothing happened? over property rights?

But a group of black people want justice for someone actually dying, and you get... well, this.

Aug 14, 2014#28

GasBandit

DarkAudit said:
He hasn't expressed his intent in so many words, but obvious the desire is there. Must be waiting until they come for him specifically. The rest of us poor dumb bastards can just suck eggs.

If you're not willing to stand up for yourself, and furthermore want my constitutionally protected right to stand up for myself to be taken away, why should I stand up for you?

Aug 14, 2014#29

DarkAudit

GasBandit said:
If you're not willing to stand up for yourself, and furthermore want my constitutionally protected right to stand up for myself to be taken away, why should I stand up for you?

Well, it's clear you aren't standing up for the people of Ferguson, or the people trying to report on what's happening. But go ahead, keep making it all about us idiots on the internet instead.

Aug 14, 2014#30

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Remember when a bunch of white people in Nevada pointed guns at federal officers and nothing happened? over property rights?

But a group of black people want justice for someone actually dying, and you get... well, this.

So what you're saying is that the local police in NV handled the situation appropriately and the local police in MO should have emulated their approach?

Aug 14, 2014#31

Covar

DarkAudit said:
Well, it's clear you aren't standing up for the people of Ferguson, or the people trying to report on what's happening. But go ahead, keep making it all about us idiots on the internet instead.

I don't see you flying to MO to do anything about it.

Aug 14, 2014#32

DarkAudit

Covar said:
I don't see you flying to MO to do anything about it.

Nor I you.

Aug 14, 2014#33

GasBandit

DarkAudit said:
Well, it's clear you aren't standing up for the people of Ferguson, or the people trying to report on what's happening. But go ahead, keep making it all about us idiots on the internet instead.

I'm literally learning more by the minute what's happening in Ferguson. I'm not a professional stander-upper-for-missouri, but I do know that Missouri has even more lax gun laws than Texas does (it is an open carry state).. so if they haven't started shooting cops yet, maybe there's a reason for it.

See, unlike progressives, I don't claim to know everything and what's best for someone else a thousand miles away. Clearly the are abuses that need to be addressed, but as steinman says, maybe there's less oppression than vines and tweets make out, given that the Missouri population has no problem arming itself.

The 2nd amendment is the last resort, not the first resort. If you knew anything about the constitution, you'd know that.

Aug 14, 2014#34

Covar

The difference is I'm not making a big stink about people, just calling you out on it.

Aug 14, 2014#35

GasBandit

stienman said:
Aren't you the one that dragged the second amendment into this situation, specifically calling Gasbandit out to justify his position in light of this event? Has he not explained how it doesn't apply to this situation sufficiently? Why are you still attacking him as though this event is somehow his responsibility?

Because he's got the world's biggest stick in his craw.

Aug 14, 2014#36

DarkAudit

GasBandit said:
Because he's got the world's biggest stick in his craw.

Ad hominem. Ad hominem. Straw man. Circular reasoning. What's next, so's your old man?

Aug 14, 2014#37

GasBandit

DarkAudit said:
Ad hominem. Ad hominem. Straw man. Circular reasoning. What's next, so's your old man?

You live in the biggest, most fallacious glass house. Careful with those stones.

But if you're going to specifically ask for it, here it is: You are the Charlie of gun issues.

Aug 14, 2014#38

DarkAudit

GasBandit said:
You live in the biggest, most fallacious glass house. Careful with those stones.

But if you're going to specifically ask for it, here it is: You are the Charlie of gun issues.

In other words, it's fine only when you do it.

Aug 14, 2014#39

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
This quibbling is missing the most important detail that another young black person has been killed by police. I left it out of the thread title to seem slightly less inflammatory.

That's right. This thread is not at all about the big mess in the produce section, it's about the fact that someone took an orange from the bottom!

--Patrick

Aug 14, 2014#40

GasBandit

DarkAudit said:
In other words, it's fine only when you do it.

At least I only do it in threads actually about gun control.

DA Logic -

Then: "You shouldn't be allowed guns because you will shoot people!"
Now: "How can you not be shooting people, you hypocrites?! YOU HAVE GUNS!"

Aug 14, 2014#41

DarkAudit

GasBandit said:
At least I only do it in threads actually about gun control.

DA Logic -

Then: "You shouldn't be allowed guns because you will shoot people!"
Now: "How can you not be shooting people, you hypocrites?! YOU HAVE GUNS!"

Yup. It's only okay when you do it. Because context is for pussies.

Aug 14, 2014#42

Dave

https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson

Aug 14, 2014#43

GasBandit

DarkAudit said:
Yup. It's only okay when you do it. Because context is for pussies.

Maybe next time you should stick to the issues then, instead of trying to use the chip on your shoulder to shoehorn in your pet issue with a veiled personal jab.

Aug 14, 2014#44

DarkAudit

GasBandit said:
View attachment 15638

Maybe next time you should stick to the issues then, instead of trying to use the chip on your shoulder to shoehorn in your pet issue with a veiled personal jab.

Ooh, swing and a miss AGAIN!

Aug 14, 2014#45

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
At least I only do it in threads actually about gun control.

Everyone has their trigger issues.

--Patrick

Aug 14, 2014#46

GasBandit

Rand Paul: Demilitarize the Police.

Aug 14, 2014#47

DarkAudit

stienman said:
But guys! Guys! What are the police going to use all these cool weapons and tools President Obama gave them if not on US citizens?

If you give a little boy a knife, you have to expect something is going to be cut. And soon.

Relevant Tom Tomorrow cartoon.

Soon already happened. More than once.

Aug 14, 2014#48

Dave

I agree with Rand Paul on something. I feel dirty.[DOUBLEPOST=1408041945,1408041602][/DOUBLEPOST]It's all about power, man. We gotta save ourselves and our corporate interests from the unwashed masses.

Aug 14, 2014#49

GasBandit

stienman said:
Honestly I admit I'm a little paranoid about the increased police militarization. I can't help but think that either we are expecting more foreign attacks on American soil, or that politicians are truly expecting a revolution a little way down the road.

Neither possibility is good.

I don't think it has overtly nefarious motivations... probably just an excuse to grow government budgets, as always. However, it has and will continue to have unfortunate consequences.

Aug 14, 2014#50

MindDetective

GasBandit said:
I don't think it has overtly nefarious motivations... probably just an excuse to grow government budgets, as always. However, it has and will continue to have unfortunate consequences.

Actually, I was thinking it was a result of all of the anti-terrorism money being thrown around 10 years ago (and since). The police departments simply snatched up the lavish buffet put before them. Opportunities to better fund their departments with minimal effort? Have at it!

Aug 14, 2014#51

DarkAudit

GasBandit said:
I don't think it has overtly nefarious motivations... probably just an excuse to grow government budgets, as always. However, it has and will continue to have unfortunate consequences.

Only thing nefarious would be greed. Local jurisdictions are having money thrown at them in the name of "fighting terrorism" or "the war on drugs". The money's got to be spent, or it's lost. In steps a senator or congressman, or more likely an ex-senator or ex-congressman. They have a lead on firepower that your average grunt in Afghanistan can only dream of getting. And they get a little something something for themselves as a "commision" or "finders fee". Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink. Say no more.

I'm not saying that's what's going on, but in this day and age, it sure feels that way.

Aug 14, 2014#52

GasBandit

DarkAudit said:
Only thing nefarious would be greed. Local jurisdictions are having money thrown at them in the name of "fighting terrorism" or "the war on drugs". The money's got to be spent, or it's lost. In steps a senator or congressman, or more likely an ex-senator or ex-congressman. They have a lead on firepower that your average grunt in Afghanistan can only dream of getting. And they get a little something something for themselves as a "commision" or "finders fee". Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink. Say no more.

I'm not saying that's what's going on, but in this day and age, it sure feels that way.

I'm not sure that the graft angle is even necessary. A budget is power and control... increasing it is its own reward.

Aug 14, 2014#53

DarkAudit

FPD chief denies they're gassing journalists...

so Al Jazeera does a split screen...

You were saying, chief?

(and now, bed... clock may say 4pm, but it's like 1am to me. ZZZ...)

Aug 14, 2014#54

GasBandit

That's the chief with the Stars and Bars hanging in his house, right?

Aug 14, 2014#55

sixpackshaker

GasBandit said:
That's the chief with the Stars and Bars hanging in his house, right?

The Stars and Bars was the flag of the nation. The one in the picture was the battle flag or naval ensign/jack.

Aug 14, 2014#56

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
Five days after the shooting, and several days after the beginning of excessive police violence, President Obama finally steps up to the podium: http://abcnews.go.com/US/president-obama-excuse-excessive-force-police-ferguson/story?id=24980370

Also http://www.mediaite.com/online/don-lemon-white-people-in-willful-denial-over-racism-in-ferguson/

About fucking time.

The whole thing of the police chief withholding the shooter cop's name is bullshit. In NYC, the names of police are not kept secret.

In my imagination, this was more a tactic against the Ferguson police. You step out of line on this incident? Guess who just became the guy who shot Michael Brown. That's unlikely, but it popped into my head today.

I felt we were having a more peaceful discussion in Gas's thread, but maybe that's because fewer people noticed it there. In any case, hopefully the state police will do better than the over-geared, under-trained assholes who've been aiming rifles at protesters, gassing journalists, and spraying mace at little girls. That's not exactly setting the bar high, so they shouldn't have a problem.

Aug 14, 2014#57

GasBandit

Twitter's saying the crowd is cheering as the "guard is changed" for police/security in Ferguson. The new cops showing up are not wearing SWAT gear.

Aug 14, 2014#58

GasBandit

Palestinians are tweeting tips to Ferguson protesters on how to deal with tear gas.

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ferguson-protest-palestinians-gaza-tear-gas/

Aug 14, 2014#59

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Twitter's saying the crowd is cheering as the "guard is changed" for police/security in Ferguson. The new cops showing up are not wearing SWAT gear.

Good.[DOUBLEPOST=1408066619,1408066584][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
Palestinians are tweeting tips to Ferguson protesters on how to deal with tear gas.

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ferguson-protest-palestinians-gaza-tear-gas/

Does anyone else find that kind of surreal?

Aug 14, 2014#60

sixpackshaker

Now I am waiting for the first person to link that article to Facebook to say the protesters are as 'bad' as the Palestinians....

Aug 14, 2014#61

Hailey Knight

Aug 14, 2014#62

sixpackshaker

The Palestinians left an IMPORTANT TIP off of that list.

Wash your hands BEFORE using the restroom.

Aug 14, 2014#63

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
Well, the good cop, bad cop routine really seems to be paying dividends.

I kinda doubt they planned it that way, but they'll make it work for them.

Helps also that the new guy in charge isn't a doughy middle-aged white guy who refers to the people of Ferguson as animals.

Aug 15, 2014#64

Terrik

stienman said:
A well written article:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ke-brown-trayvon-martin-my-father-and-me.html

In many (really, many) areas of that article I could have replaced "America" with "China/Korea/Japan" and some of it would have mirrored some of my own experiences. That's not a critique of the article. That's an unfortunate reality of a place that isn't living up to expectations. I might expect to be cheated, bullied or looked down upon in a mono-ethnic country, but that shouldn't happen in a multi-ethnic nation like the US. A lot of what he says kind of has me thinking what Jun is going to experience when she gets here with her less than perfect English and innocence about what life is like in the western world.

Aug 15, 2014#65

Hailey Knight

Most of my friends are not white. I never hear stories of them dealing with discrimination and assumed that was because they hadn't experienced any, because why wouldn't they tell me? We all met at or around college, we've all been friends for almost 10 years.

But that article makes me wonder. I'm not going to pry, of course, but still.

Aug 15, 2014#66

Eriol

stienman said:
can't help but think that either we are expecting more foreign attacks on American soil, or that politicians are truly expecting a revolution a little way down the road.

Neither possibility is good.

The first is a reason to increase your National Guard, not arming police in the style of militaries.

There's a reason why you are constitutionally BANNED from deploying the army on home turf. Anything army-like shouldn't be what's enforcing the law. Special SWAT teams? Maybe in very VERY bad areas/cases, but in the vast majority of even your nation, that's not necessary, and shouldn't be part of the repertoire.

As with most things of governmental power, your "give a child a knife" thing is true, with government at least. Private citizens are more trustworthy there IMO because they face the consequences, and know it. As somebody else somewhere said, "I'll believe a corporation is a person when Texas executes one." Same principal, but government departments (and larger). Their bad behavior may OCCASIONALLY cause individuals to go down, but generally they protect themselves from any outside harm or criticism.

Aug 15, 2014#67

LittleSin

Above is a protester, wearing the red, white and blue, lobbing a tear gas (I think) canister back at the police line.

I feel like this is one of those pictures that could go viral, like that pic of that couple making out in the street during the Hockey Riot or the like.

Aug 15, 2014#68

AshburnerX

Eriol said:
The first is a reason to increase your National Guard, not arming police in the style of militaries.

There's a reason why you are constitutionally BANNED from deploying the army on home turf. Anything army-like shouldn't be what's enforcing the law. Special SWAT teams? Maybe in very VERY bad areas/cases, but in the vast majority of even your nation, that's not necessary, and shouldn't be part of the repertoire.

As with most things of governmental power, your "give a child a knife" thing is true, with government at least. Private citizens are more trustworthy there IMO because they face the consequences, and know it. As somebody else somewhere said, "I'll believe a corporation is a person when Texas executes one." Same principal, but government departments (and larger). Their bad behavior may OCCASIONALLY cause individuals to go down, but generally they protect themselves from any outside harm or criticism.

It's very apparent that large cities need SWAT teams to handle specialized situations. We learned that during the North Hollywood shootout, where two guys with AKs, drum mags, and full body armor were able to hold off an entire police department until the cops borrowed some hunting rifles from a nearby store. There is definitely a need for them. The REAL issue is that SWAT units cost a fortune to outfit and train for what amounts to something that is only used in a worst case scenario and it's hard not to look at those toys and think "No one would mess with our guys if they ALL looked like that".

Unfortunately, that's the road to fascism but few realize it.

Aug 15, 2014#69

LittleSin

A democratic congressman has proposed a bill to demilitarize the cops.

Forgive the buzzfeed link.

Aug 15, 2014#70

Charlie Don't Surf

Favorite part of that pic is him still holding his open bag of chips

Aug 15, 2014#71

LittleSin

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Favorite part of that pic is him still holding his open bag of chips

I noticed that. as he just coming our of the store with his snack when they pitched a tear gas his way?

"Shit...all these cops are out in force but I have like no food left in here. I need to get a snack or something. I guess I'll don my American flag shirt! They way they'll know I'm on their side! Mmmmm yeh, these are good chips. Wait...what's that...? OH NO YOU DID NOT DO THAT."

I'm sorry. I am very tired. Alice does not like sleeping during the night.

Aug 15, 2014#72

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Favorite part of that pic is him still holding his open bag of chips

Revolutions don't happen on an empty stomach.

--Patrick

Aug 15, 2014#73

PatrThom

stienman said:
Empty stomachs cause revolutions.

It's only fair, since too many revolutions will result in an empty stomach.

--Patrick

Aug 15, 2014#74

Fun Size

LittleSin said:
View attachment 15644

Above is a protester, wearing the red, white and blue, lobbing a tear gas (I think) canister back at the police line.

I feel like this is one of those pictures that could go viral, like that pic of that couple making out in the street during the Hockey Riot or the like.

"Dude, did you shoot a tear gas canister at me? Can you not see these Doritos? I AM EXTREME, MUTHERFUCKER!"

Aug 15, 2014#75

PatrThom

stienman said:
I know of what you speak:

I took my kid to the playground yesterday. For 2 hours. I know exactly of what I speak.
My motion tolerance has fallen soooo much without regular exposure.

--Patrick

Aug 15, 2014#76

Krisken

Just thought I'd share since people seemed curious.

Aug 16, 2014#77

jwhouk

Back at Square One.

Aug 16, 2014#78

Hailey Knight

jwhouk said:
Back at Square One.

And a poignant text blurb from this: "i just wanted to put this out there since im sure it’ll get written about differently tomorrow."

In other Ferguson news, the girl who was allegedly shot in the head by police during her coverage of events (police say it was a drive-by by unknown assailants) has had her operation earlier than originally scheduled, is recovering and tweeting again, so that's good. The bad is that police took the bullet, haven't bothered doing an interview, getting a police report. Just told the surgeons reschedule the operation three days early and took the evidence. It feels kind of suspicious, though by itself isn't solid anything.

Aug 16, 2014#79

sixpackshaker

This place will end up being like Watts. 30 years before another store opens. (exaggeration but there will not be any private investing in the neighborhood now.)

Aug 16, 2014#80

Hailey Knight

Unfortunately I don't see any progress over anything being made over this. Eventually the identity of the guy who shoot Michael Brown will be released, hopefully before IA has to pull it out, but otherwise, I don't know. There are Ferguson support protests going on in New York, DC, and other big cities, and I doubt there will be an Occupy-style backlash because there's a clear demand that can be sated, but for long-term goals of dealing with racial discrimination in the country's police departments? Probably nothing will change.

Maybe the police will be de-militarized. That's probably the most unifying aspect of this because it's something everyone can be afraid of regardless of skin color, even by people who don't give a damn about the racial issues at play.

Aug 16, 2014#81

GasBandit

They released the identity of the officer yesterday.

Aug 16, 2014#82

AshburnerX

Zero Esc said:
Maybe the police will be de-militarized. That's probably the most unifying aspect of this because it's something everyone can be afraid of regardless of skin color, even by people who don't give a damn about the racial issues at play.

It's going to be a huge battle, but at least it's doable. Frankly, I believe a lot of the police departments in this country have grown to rely on their toys a bit too much. The big thing used to be officers macing suspects instead of getting compliance verbally, then that turned into officers tazing people at the drop of a hat for similar reasons... now the big thing is using a SWAT level response for EVERYTHING because now they have the equipment to do it. We really need to set national standards for police response, training and equipment, because it's becoming impossible to trust them anymore.

Aug 16, 2014#83

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
It's going to be a huge battle, but at least it's doable. Frankly, I believe a lot of the police departments in this country have grown to rely on their toys a bit too much. The big thing used to be officers macing suspects instead of getting compliance verbally, then that turned into officers tazing people at the drop of a hat for similar reasons... now the big thing is using a SWAT level response for EVERYTHING because now they have the equipment to do it. We really need to set national standards for police response, training and equipment, because it's becoming impossible to trust them anymore.

The whole thing about "we have to use our budget or it goes away" and funneling that into weapons, they need to funnel it into training.

Aug 16, 2014#84

AshburnerX

Zero Esc said:
The whole thing about "we have to use our budget or it goes away" and funneling that into weapons, they need to funnel it into training.

They need to funnel it into a wireless sound and video recording system that officers are required to wear anytime they aren't working undercover. There is NO REASON they can't do this with their budgets, when such a device would cost less than a fucking iPhone per an officer. Public officers have no expectation of privacy while on duty so there is no legal reason why this shouldn't have already happened.

Aug 16, 2014#85

Hailey Knight

AshburnerX said:
They need to funnel it into a wireless sound and video recording system that officers are required to wear anytime they aren't working undercover. There is NO REASON they can't do this with their budgets, when such a device would cost less than a fucking iPhone per an officer. Public officers have no expectation of privacy while on duty so there is no legal reason why this shouldn't have already happened.

That, too. Allegedly there were no dash cams present during the Ferguson police movement.

Aug 16, 2014#86

blotsfan

AshburnerX said:
They need to funnel it into a wireless sound and video recording system that officers are required to wear anytime they aren't working undercover. There is NO REASON they can't do this with their budgets, when such a device would cost less than a fucking iPhone per an officer. Public officers have no expectation of privacy while on duty so there is no legal reason why this shouldn't have already happened.

I'm pretty sure that whenever police departments enact that, it ends up being "Well gosh darnit, lookit that! Turns out the cameras weren't working for some completely unknown, but highly fortunate reason!"

Aug 16, 2014#87

AshburnerX

blotsfan said:
I'm pretty sure that whenever police departments enact that, it ends up being "Well gosh darnit, lookit that! Turns out the cameras weren't working for some completely unknown, but highly fortunate reason!"

At which point you throw out the case and suspend the officer without pay. It's the responsibility of the police department and the officer to ensure their equipment is in "working order".

Aug 16, 2014#88

blotsfan

But if its a case where the police officer is being charged, its still in their best interests to destroy the evidence.

Aug 16, 2014#89

AshburnerX

blotsfan said:
But if its a case where the police officer is being charged, its still in their best interests to destroy the evidence.

True, but the destruction of evidence in such an obvious and open manner would only make the jury suspicious. Legally, all that needs to happen is to require it to be working at all times.

Aug 17, 2014#90

Hailey Knight

Missouri Governor put curfew into effect, police in riot gear showed up a couple hours before the curfew deadline, people still wouldn't go home once curfew hit.

It's kind of murky what happened next. Instead of outright dismantling news equipment or gassing reporters, the police sequestered all journalists to a specific parking lot where they're allowed to cover the news ... you know, away from where everything was happening, where they would be able to capture what the police were doing.

Apparently it was stated the police would not be using tear gas to enforce the curfew, only for them to pull out gas masks, shoot canisters at the crowd, have people find and display the canisters, and the police admit they used them. Well, at least they can own up to something.

Also, reporters went around St. Louis getting the opinions of the enlightened populace* to say things like the people of Ferguson have nothing to be angry about, or that it's natural for "them" to loot and protest. -_- Where the fuck do they find these people?

*I guess it makes sense; it's not like the police were going to stop them from interviewing ignorant white people outside of town.

Aug 17, 2014#91

Charlie Don't Surf

Hmm. "When the Media treats white suspects/killers better than black victims"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html

Aug 17, 2014#92

Hailey Knight

And three hours before curfew tonight, police were already firing the gas to disperse the crowd, even firing near the media area.

Aug 17, 2014#93

Charlie Don't Surf

Things are getting really bad in Ferguson tonight.

Aug 17, 2014#94

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
Out of curiosity, why are people violating the curfew?

The other night they were violating the curfew to continue protesting. On the one hand, the governor announced the curfew and it should be followed, but on the other hand, it was announced to stop the protesting and the police were out two hours beforehand anyway.

No one broke curfew tonight since it wouldn't start for three hours after police started shooting tear gas again. My emoticon choice was because I don't understand why. If they're trying to exacerbate the situation, you'd think they would come up with some artificial pretext instead of just stomping out and doing it, especially since they began gassing the area the police had designated for the media to sit and be good.

Maybe those tear gas canisters are about to expire, so they have to use them up before then.

Aug 18, 2014#95

Krisken

Aug 18, 2014#96

ThatNickGuy

Once again, John Oliver knocks it out of the park.

[DOUBLEPOST=1408362192,1408361981][/DOUBLEPOST]For the first time in history, Amnesty International is visiting the U.S.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-time-as-national-guard-deployed-9675149.html

Aug 18, 2014#97

DarkAudit

Krisken said:

Didn't we already have this screaming match on Thursday?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Aug 18, 2014#98

Krisken

I'm not playing in the mud, I'm just passing it on.

Aug 18, 2014#99

Krisken

Aug 18, 2014#100

GasBandit

Krisken said:
I'm not playing in the mud, I'm just passing it on.

Or, in internet parlance, lobbing a grenade.

Yeah, we had that discussion already.

Aug 18, 2014#101

jwhouk

With or without a bag of chips in hand?

Aug 18, 2014#102

Dave

I am vacillating on this issue lately.

On the one hand, John Oliver is totally spot on.

On the other hand, the residents need to take at least a bit of blame for the recent escalation. I mean, molotov cocktails don't just spontaneously appear at the first sign of trouble. There are people in the area who are dead set at not letting cooler heads prevail.

I'm not trying to blame the victim because the guys doing this aren't the ones protesting (I'd like to believe), but it really turns into an ever-escalating circle jerk of stupidity.

Aug 18, 2014#103

LittleSin

People very rarely listen to 'cooler heads', sad to say. Sure, they'll sit down and smile and nod and agree with your laid out concerns...but cooler heads rarely make changes.

Not saying violence is a good thing but it certainly makes people pay attention.

Aug 18, 2014#104

GasBandit

The governor of Missouri has now called in the National Guard.

Aug 18, 2014#105

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
The governor of Missouri has now called in the National Guard.

Great... now we're going to have week end warriors causing problems. Call me when we actually send in the army to shut down the entire fucking town, because maybe then something will actually get done.

Aug 18, 2014#106

Ravenpoe

stienman said:
Well, when they had a problem with a group of people in the past, Missouri knew how to handle it. As a bonus, we're just past the 175 anniversary of Executive Order 44 - perfect time to commemorate it!

TIL: Mormons are Jedi. Huh...

Aug 18, 2014#107

Covar

stienman said:
If that happens, we might as well wad up the constitution and be done with it.

Don't tempt them.

Aug 18, 2014#108

AshburnerX

stienman said:
If that happens, we might as well wad up the constitution and be done with it.

For a thought experiment on how this could be accomplished read this next article. Note that while the group is different, the state vs federal responsibility/sovereignty is the same. Might want to read up on the Posse Comitatus Act as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...s-military-would-crush-a-tea-party-rebellion/

They could do it with permission from Congress... which is unlikely to happen unless the National Guard is unable to contain the violence (or starts causing more). But we DO have previsions that can make it happen.

Aug 18, 2014#109

Just Me

stienman said:
... Posse Comitatus Act ...

You had me at Pussy Communist.
:oops:

Aug 18, 2014#110

GasBandit

stienman said:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...s-military-would-crush-a-tea-party-rebellion/

"How the US Military would crush a Tea Party rebellion"
Goes on to quote studies/papers that aren't about the tea party at all, just generic insurrection.
Author's bias is showing.

But to answer the question, how could they? With massive expenditure, huge amounts of collateral damage, lengthy occupations with reconstruction periods... and we all know how well this whole thing worked in Iraq and Afghanistan, don't we? Unless you think the US government would go "Gaza invasion" and execute indiscriminate scorched earth tactics on its own soil and own populace. And there'd be serious political consequences... which changes the question to "but WOULD they?"

"The old gun lobby line that a pack of civilians with hunting rifles will stop a tyrannical federal government is silly. This isnt 1776, the U.S. military is a tad better equipped than King Georges redcoats" Er, that's not the gun lobby's line, the gun lobby line is that, for this exact reason, the civilian populace should have access to the same ordinance that a soldier does. Soldiers had muskets, so farmers got muskets. Soldiers today have automatic rifles, so citizens should as well.

Aug 18, 2014#111

AshburnerX

Not to mention that it's child's play to modify a semi-auto to fire full auto. It's also worth mentioning that any fallen military equipment would actually be useful for American insurgents because we actually have the means to use them effectively. 5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds are common as piss in the US, unlike the Middle East, so it would basically be the French Resistance all over again (use an inferior gun to get a better gun off an enemy soldier).

Would the American Army eventually control a region? They can't even control Iraq. What are they going to do when the enemy not only speaks their language, but also looks like them and has the same culture? It'd be impossible to rout out the insurgents without going scorched earth.

Aug 18, 2014#112

sixpackshaker

There has been an answer for decades.

Aug 18, 2014#113

Chad Sexington

sixpackshaker said:
There has been an answer for decades.

Aug 18, 2014#114

GasBandit

Further illustrating the need for skepticism about media reporting -

"Isn't this 4 year old's reaction horrifying?"

Well, not so much if you don't play it out of context to completely change the meaning of what he was saying.

Aug 18, 2014#115

sixpackshaker

I was waiting for that kid to finish his sentence... too bad the news lied about his motivation.

Aug 18, 2014#116

GasBandit

Is it ironic that the arriving National Guardsmen look less "militarized" than the police they're supplanting?

Twitter response of the day winner: "How do we know they're in charge? They're not even pointing guns at anyone!"

Runner up: "If the Ferguson PD had behaved as these soldiers here, we wouldn't need these soldiers here."

Aug 18, 2014#117

ThatNickGuy

I was listening to the latest report on the radio while driving today.

For one, the autopsy report came back for Michael Brown:
-There were SIX bullet wounds in total, including the kill shot to the head.
-There were no signs of struggle.

Also, it appears that the most major of looters and the ones responsible for the molotov cocktails came from outside the Ferguson community. The cocktail throwers that were arrested apparently came from Chicago. Basically, trouble makes coming in to take advantage of the situation.

Aug 18, 2014#118

blotsfan

Alright well charge that cop with murder.

Aug 18, 2014#119

Sparhawk

ThatNickGuy said:
I was listening to the latest report on the radio while driving today.

For one, the autopsy report came back for Michael Brown:
-There were SIX bullet wounds in total, including the kill shot to the head.
-There were no signs of struggle.

Also, it appears that the most major of looters and the ones responsible for the molotov cocktails came from outside the Ferguson community. The cocktail throwers that were arrested apparently came from Chicago. Basically, trouble makes coming in to take advantage of the situation.

Here's a current CNN story, sounds like Brown was being aggressive and charging the officer when he was shot. Not the "hands-up" or running away that was initially reported. Other sites have reported that all the shots were from the front of Brown and none from behind.

Aug 18, 2014#120

Krisken

Sparhawk said:
Here's a current CNN story, sounds like Brown was being aggressive and charging the officer when he was shot. Not the "hands-up" or running away that was initially reported. Other sites have reported that all the shots were from the front of Brown and none from behind.

Of course. What do they gain by saying otherwise?

Aug 18, 2014#121

PatrThom

Dave said:
molotov cocktails don't just spontaneously appear at the first sign of trouble.

Much like Internet trolls, I imagine that there are "opportunists" who will seize cover to take advantage of any tense situation.

--Patrick

Aug 18, 2014#122

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
Once again, John Oliver knocks it out of the park.

[DOUBLEPOST=1408362192,1408361981][/DOUBLEPOST]For the first time in history, Amnesty International is visiting the U.S.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-time-as-national-guard-deployed-9675149.html

Damn, John Oliver, nice job.[DOUBLEPOST=1408421906][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
Is it ironic that the arriving National Guardsmen look less "militarized" than the police they're supplanting?

Twitter response of the day winner: "How do we know they're in charge? They're not even pointing guns at anyone!"

Runner up: "If the Ferguson PD had behaved as these soldiers here, we wouldn't need these soldiers here."

The people actually trained in the equipment used by the Ferguson PD know when a situation isn't appropriate for that equipment's use.

Aug 18, 2014#123

DarkAudit

And it isn't appropriate to point guns at the heads or reporters or gas them while they are LIVE ON THE AIR.

From the deepest reaches of hell, Mayor Daley is smiling.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Aug 19, 2014#124

drawn_inward

Moved to pictures thread to avoid flames.

Aug 19, 2014#125

GasBandit

CNN Anchorwoman not quite so saavy on the subject.

https://vine.co/v/M3F6JDPI9Hu

Dat look the other guy gives her. Hah.

Aug 19, 2014#126

SpecialKO

Apparently, the RCP is in town, trying to stir people up.

https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench/statuses/501623329376464897

(is there a way to embed twitter?)

The RCP is hardcore fringe left and delights in antagonizing police at protests. They had a hand (though not the only one) in getting the OWS protests to turn much rougher than they started.[DOUBLEPOST=1408476149,1408476073][/DOUBLEPOST]

GasBandit said:
CNN Anchorwoman not quite so saavy on the subject.

https://vine.co/v/M3F6JDPI9Hu

Dat look the other guy gives her. Hah.

Aug 19, 2014#127

GasBandit

SpecialKO said:

I think her accent is the clue. I've noticed that sometimes europeans completely fail to grasp all the nuances of the complicated ballet that has been race relations in the US. Heck, Pauline never quite grasped what the big deal was with the word "ñigger." (accent mark to defeat the PC autoreplace filter)

Aug 19, 2014#128

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
(accent mark to defeat the PC autoreplace filter)

It made me read it in Stinkmeaner's voice.

Aug 19, 2014#129

GasBandit

Ravenpoe said:
It made me read it in Stinkmeaner's voice.

That would be more like "ñucka."

"WHAT'S REALLY GOOD?!"

Aug 19, 2014#130

ThatNickGuy

Egypt urges US to use more restraint in Ferguson.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28855811

When EGYPT tells you to cool your jets, I think that means we've become some kind of mirror world.

Aug 19, 2014#131

sixpackshaker

ThatNickGuy said:
Egypt urges US to use more restraint in Ferguson.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28855811

When EGYPT tells you to cool your jets, I think that means we've become some kind of mirror world.

It is just PR revenge.

We aren't exactly riding through the crowd on camels whipping everyone with bamboo canes and sniping 100's from the roof tops.

Aug 19, 2014#132

Krisken

You know shit's bad when the Crips and Bloods are like "Fuck this, man, we got bigger problems than our decades old feud".

Aug 19, 2014#133

GasBandit

Krisken said:
You know shit's bad when the Crips and Bloods are like "Fuck this, man, we got bigger problems than our decades old feud".

I'd read somewhere it was shooped.

Aug 19, 2014#134

sixpackshaker

But there are now citizens protecting some of the stores. It may have been just one night though.

Aug 19, 2014#135

Hailey Knight

Hard to protect stores when the police are still mowing through town with flash bombs and tear gas. They ended up getting full into the media playpen and had to have the reporters leave (surprise -_-). Also, Amnesty International was asked to leave for their safety.

The Ferguson police seem to have no plan except to continue to terrorize the people there until they drop this and can't seem to understand how that's only going to make things worse. This is not just going to go away when CNN has finally started using the term "police brutality" and Fox News is taking issue with the treatment there. These are not the types of stations usually on the side of mistreated minorities, and yet here we are.

My other thought is that the police aren't trying to just beat this protest--they want to put down the hurt so much that after Wilson is charged, tried, and walks (let's not pretend he won't), they won't have to deal with it again. But they will, because there's no way Ferguson is going back to normal after this.

Aug 19, 2014#136

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
So you've determined he's guilty, and should not be acquitted?

From past incidents, I've determined it doesn't matter; he'll be acquitted.

Had Ferguson PD followed NYC's procedure with these situations--release the name, charge the officer, have a trial, acquit, let people bemoan and forget--none of the past week or so would've made international news.

Aug 19, 2014#137

AshburnerX

stienman said:
So you've determined he's guilty, and should not be acquitted?

Yeah, he's going to walk... or at the very least get to resign with his benefits. It's Missouri for god's sake.

Aug 19, 2014#138

Hailey Knight

And when that time comes, all of this will happen again.

Aug 19, 2014#139

Krisken

You tell me if this looks like a robbery.

Aug 19, 2014#140

Hailey Knight

I can't really tell what's going on in any of those security cam videos.

Though I did notice the police version that said it was a robbery was for a different date than the shooting. That was fun. I wish there was a count for how many times Ferguson PD has changed their story.

Aug 19, 2014#141

redthirtyone

Allright, then let's take a look at the whole clip:

#1 - not sure where you're getting the wrong date issue. Top left of the shots of the door look like "2014 08 09" to me

2 - From the looks of it, the register is being worked at the top area with the flip up counter, as someone DOES pay for something up there.

Looks like he reaches in across the counter at the unmanned window & grabs something to hand to his buddy. Then a few seconds later he goes back in for another grab and gets some resistance, dropping cigars? slimjims? on the floor. Puts the box back on the counter, proceeds to pick up all the stuff off the floor, & then heads for the door. All the while the store owner/employee comes out from behind the counter & starts confronting him. As they get to the door, Brown shoves him off & then backs him down before leaving.

Not exactly the kind of behavior one would expect had a normal transaction taken place i.e. money for goods exchanged. I guess by definition it would be called a burglary, although I'd consider it to be more of "overt shoplifting", if that's indeed what happened.

Make no mistake, this is a tragedy that shouldn't happen. But the narrative of the victim as a helpless, unarmed teenager seems far from the truth. He's 6'4" 292lbs, and certainly didn't look very helpless and non-menacing when he was backing down that store owner.

Regardless, the behavior of the Ferguson PD has been reprehensible since.

Aug 19, 2014#142

Hailey Knight

Date issue was a different video that was being claimed as of that day, not the one you posted.

Kind of curious why the guy would've denied anything was stolen after chasing Brown to the door like that.

All that build is helpless in the face of a gun. More specifically when you catch a bullet with your head.

If he did steal something from the store, he should've gotten due process, but I don't think anyone's arguing that who doesn't work for the Ferguson PD. Same goes for how they've handled this entire situation. Yet they don't change their approach.

Aug 19, 2014#143

Ravenpoe

The surveillance video is a red herring, it has nothing to do with the events in question. Whether he stole something or not doesn't matter in the least, he was an unarmed civilian that was shot and killed by police.

Aug 19, 2014#144

sixpackshaker

Now imagine if he just got the hell out of the street. He would not have been arrested for shop lifting either.[DOUBLEPOST=1408506721,1408506686][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ravenpoe said:
The surveillance video is a red herring, it has nothing to do with the events in question. Whether he stole something or not doesn't matter in the least, he was an unarmed civilian that was shot and killed by police.

A cop does not have to take an ass kicking.

Aug 19, 2014#145

Hailey Knight

Though the protest is about Michael Brown, the attention it's received is about multiple issues, such as that Brown is hardly the first, or that several police departments across the country have military grade equipment and vehicles they don't need and aren't properly trained to use. It won't end over Brown.

But yes, the protestors have no good ending for this situation. If the officer's account is true, their standing is mostly gone (there's still the issue of how the Ferguson PD handle situations, though IA will be taking over that study) and Wilson is a free man. If the hands up situation is true, Wilson will still be a free man and the protests would start up all over again. There isn't going to be a conclusion to this where the entire police force is replaced or the damage undone or Michael Brown is alive again.

Aug 20, 2014#146

Hailey Knight

District Attorney says a grand jury will convene tomorrow morning.

Aug 20, 2014#147

Officer_Charon

..... I don't know what prompted me to look into this thread.

I really should have known better.

Aug 20, 2014#148

Hailey Knight

Officer_Charon said:
..... I don't know what prompted me to look into this thread.

I really should have known better.

I'm pretty sure the number of people going "all cops suck trombones" can be counted on a Ninja Turtle's hand and still have a digit to spare.

In other news, I need to stop staying up late monitoring this. It's not as if I'm actually accomplishing anything.

Aug 20, 2014#149

Officer_Charon

I have a rant on this matter brewing, but I'm not going to release it into the wild until I can get my thoughts in order and do some research to provide factual basis for my personal feelings.

But suffice it to say that I'm by far in the minority on this matter in my feelings. And I will stand in a line and defend to the death my convictions. I stand with Officer Darren Wilson, until such time as evidence proves otherwise.

Go ahead and block me or deride me at your leisure. There are a great many issues that I can get wishy-washy about, for any number of reasons.

But on something like this, where an officer was in a fight for his life against a subject who pummeled his skull to the extent that his orbit was smashed? Nope.

Aug 20, 2014#150

GasBandit

If it's true, it's a huge development. But I'm unable to find any corroboration for the "orbital blowout" angle that isn't the Gateway Pundit, or citing him as a source. GP is a very right wing blogger, and isn't naming his source for this smashed orbital thing. You'd think if it were the case, the Ferguson PD would be trumpeting it from every mountain and rooftop.

Fact of the matter is, we don't have the whole story. Everybody from the internet pundits to the media ubercorps to the reporters on the streets have an angle and an axe to grind, and they've all got Pulitzers dancing in their eyes for covering the "great race riot/war of 2014." Hopefully as the investigation and court hearings proceed, we'll start to get more facts on the case.

In other news, FPD spokespeople are saying 93% of the people they have arrested so far are turning out not to be Ferguson residents.

Aug 20, 2014#151

Ravenpoe

I actually hadn't seen that the officer's injuries were that severe. Original reports painted a very different picture.

It seems that the events going on are becoming less and less about the event that sparked it, but growing tension between the residents and police. It's a complicated powder keg and the whole situation is just... bad.

Militarization of police forces is still a subject that needs to be tackled, though. If anything at all positive can come out of this, hopefully that conversation will, but I don't know if anything constructive can be salvaged, or what can be repaired.

Aug 20, 2014#152

DarkAudit

I don't think we'll ever know what "really" happened. Too many people pushing their particular narratives.

It's difficult to buy the "official" version of what went down when their version of what's happened since has sometimes been debunked in mid-sentence.

And then... I think... dear Lord, what about OC, Frank, and those guys watching over my ass each and every night? The ones who had nothing to do with any of this and are just doing the job they are tasked with the best way they know how. Only thing I know what to do is to not even bring it up around them.

Aug 20, 2014#153

Charlie Don't Surf

surprise, Officer Charon is an unapologetic fascist. Spoiler - all your carefully researched words are still going to be evil bullshit no matter how many citations, save your strength to fire tear gas if a protest comes to Georgia

also remember when you guys mocked me when I called the US a police state

also just floored that Steinman is on the side of the white authority group

Aug 20, 2014#154

DarkAudit

Aug 20, 2014#155

bhamv3

Charlie Don't Surf said:
surprise, Officer Charon is an unapologetic fascist. Spoiler - all your carefully researched words are still going to be evil bullshit no matter how many citations, save your strength to fire tear gas if a protest comes to Georgia

also remember when you guys mocked me when I called the US a police state

also just floored that Steinman is on the side of the white authority group

Whelp, that's that, abandoning thread. Ta ta now.

Aug 20, 2014#156

Charlie Don't Surf

good, no one should read Officer Charon's tacit endorsement of state-sponsored murder, god bless the blue shield, please protect darren wilson from being taken off PAID ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE, the fucking HORROR[DOUBLEPOST=1408523589,1408523418][/DOUBLEPOST]Wait, actually, I take all of the above back if you're joking. I just thought about it and having an avatar that literally says "I SUPPORT DARREN WILSON" on a police badge is a pretty good troll. So if you're joking, then hah, good job man

Aug 20, 2014#157

DarkAudit

Aug 20, 2014#158

Officer_Charon

Charlie Don't Surf said:
surprise, Officer Charon is an unapologetic fascist. Spoiler - all your carefully researched words are still going to be evil bullshit no matter how many citations, save your strength to fire tear gas if a protest comes to Georgia

Correction: I'm a moderate, which looks like a fascist to a leftie, and a commie to a right-winger.

Go soak your head, Charlie. With the knowledge that I have of this incident, I would have probably reacted the same way as Officer Wilson, ceasing firing only after the threat was ended. Because at the end of the day, if the choice comes down to him going home to his family, or me to mine, I know for certain that I'm going home.

Aug 20, 2014#159

Hailey Knight

And this thread was going so well.

With Brown being as tall as he was, I'm curious how Wilson got a shot to enter through the top of his head and out of his neck while Brown was charging him.

Aug 20, 2014#160

Krisken

Welp, this thread is for shit now. On to the next one where it hasn't devolved into name calling childishness.

Aug 20, 2014#161

Officer_Charon

Zero Esc said:
And this thread was going so well.

With Brown being as tall as he was, I'm curious how Wilson got a shot to enter through the top of his head and out of his neck while Brown was charging him.

Picture a man charging, lowering his head and shoulders to tackle at the midsection.

Aug 20, 2014#162

Charlie Don't Surf

Officer_Charon said:
Picture a man charging, lowering his head and shoulders to tackle at the midsection.

Or picture a man, on his knees with his arms raised, pleading for his life and saying "don't shoot", and getting shot in the arm two or three times, and bending over in pain

Aug 20, 2014#163

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Or picture a man, on his knees with his arms raised, pleading for his life and saying "don't shoot", and getting shot in the arm two or three times, and bending over in pain

If his hands were raised, how did the bullets strike the front of his arms? This is the autopsy from the family.

So far the "eye" witness accounts are total bull shit.

Aug 20, 2014#164

Espy

Lets keep it civil guys. This is an important story and one we should be discussing for a variety of reasons. @Charlie Don't Surf I get that you are upset, take it down a notch buddy. If you can't have a conversation without freaking out take a break. I say that as someone who actually thinks your views on this are something people need to hear. They won't hear them though if you don't drop from an 11 to something in the 5-7 range.

Aug 20, 2014#165

PatrThom

Wow, this last day has been a bit active on this thread.
Sure there seems to be a bit of trolling going on in this thread, but it seems to be confined to one or two people. Also, OC appears to not be taking the bait. Riled by it, sure, but not biting...a useful skill in a public servant.

--Patrick

Aug 20, 2014#166

Tiger Tsang

About the reports of orbital blowout.

Aug 20, 2014#167

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
surprise, Officer Charon is an unapologetic fascist. Spoiler - all your carefully researched words are still going to be evil bullshit no matter how many citations, save your strength to fire tear gas if a protest comes to Georgia

Really?!? Fucking really?!? O_C has done absolutely nothing to have you attack him like that. He's never - NEVER! - shown you anything that would put him in "unapologetic fascist" territory. Not a god damned thing. I believe you owe that man an apology.

Aug 20, 2014#168

LittleSin

Dave said:
Really?!? Fucking really?!? O_C has done absolutely nothing to have you attack him like that. He's never - NEVER! - shown you anything that would put him in "unapologetic fascist" territory. Not a god damned thing. I believe you owe that man an apology.

Here, here. Don't take your anger out on the only police officer you know. Charlie's whole...thing reeks of shit stirring.

Aug 20, 2014#169

GasBandit

STFU Charlie.

Aug 20, 2014#170

AshburnerX

Yeah... I may not share @Officer_Charon 's views, but I can at least understand why he has them and respect the decorum he usually shows us in the "Fuck the Police" crowd. He's also done nothing to deserve the kind of personal attack you made Charlie.

So... Shut up, Charlie.

Aug 20, 2014#171

GasBandit

Tiger Tsang said:
About the reports of orbital blowout.

Bear in mind that LGF is no more credible than Gateway Pundit.

Aug 20, 2014#172

Dave

I'm not even saying Charlie needs to shut up. He's allowed his opinions, even if I disagree with them. But like everything else with free speech, you are responsible for the content of your actions. So while he doesn't need to shut up, he does need to apologize.

Aug 20, 2014#173

Jay

For those of you who don't know how HARD it is to be a cop sometimes, this little story should get you up to speed. I borrowed it from an answer a cop gave regarding his personal experiences dealing with such things.

At about 01:30 in the morning, I pulled up in my cruiser to a medical office building to follow up on a theft case I was working on. The parking lot is not very well lit. As I step out of my cruiser, a man runs towards me, holding something in his right hand. It's dark, and all I can make out is that it's thin, about 6" long, and one half is wrapped in cloth. He starts swinging it around, yelling "I'll fucking kill you! I'll eat you! I'll fuck you!"

I draw my firearm, point it at him, and start giving loud verbal commands. At the same time, I radio dispatch for help. He's not responding to my commands. He's still yelling, swinging the item, making stabbing motions, making threats. He starts approaching slowly, I back off to keep distance. We start moving into the street. About that time my backup shows up. Other officers draw down on the man, start giving verbal commands. He's still not responding.

At this point, it would have been prudent to tase him, but my department doesn't equip us with tasers.

We finally end up in a well lit area across from a restaurant (and boy oh boy, were the cell phones out.) As we're continuing to go back and forth with this guy, one of my backup units gets in close enough to see that what he's holding isn't a knife, and doesn't look like a shank, either. He hits the guy with OC spray to no effect, and then moves in with a baton, striking the hand holding the object. The guy finally drops the object, we all move in and take him down.

Bonus: He's covered in feces and urine.

So what was the object? All that time? A ninja turtles toothbrush.

Here's the thing: At any time during that encounter, from the time he initially approached me aggressively to the time we were finally able to see what the item was, had he charged at me or another officer, or a bystander, I (we) would have shot and killed him. Now I did have the presence of mind during the encounter to wonder if the item was in fact a knife, because I've had similar experiences before. But given his behavior, and the way he was brandishing it, I had perfectly good reason to believe that it was a weapon. More importantly, I'm not going to let my own doubts get me killed.

So what if I had killed him?

Well, the cell phone videos would be out. The media would report, initially, the most simple version of the story:
Townsville Metro Police Kill Man Wielding Toothbrush.

Reddit is pretty quick with things like this, so shortly thereafter on the front page:
Police officer MURDERS man over ninja turtles toothbrush.

The initial news headline would play out for a bit, until they got a few more details.
Townsville Metro Police Shoot Young Black Man Wielding Toothbrush.

Another media outlet, upset that they didn't get the initial scoop, goes with something a bit more sensational to grab the media consumer's attention:
Townsville Police Kill Unarmed Young Black Man.

There you have it. The average media consumer's opinion has already been formed by the headline - many won't even bother to read the story. Even if they did, the story will contain the most basic of details. Cops shoot guy, guy only has toothbrush.

Here's what the stories won't contain: My thoughts and feelings upon the initial encounter. The things that I can (or can't) see. My fear. My wondering if I'm about to kill a man, and how I'm going to deal with that. Am I going to break down like so many others? Become an alcoholic? What if it doesn't stop him? What if he kills me? I need help. Where are they? What's taking them so long? Who is this man? Why does he want to kill me? What if a bystander walks into this? I can't let him take a hostage. Goddamnit where is my backup?!

And then later: My god, I almost killed a man over a toothbrush. Would it have been justified? Maybe the courts would have exonerated me, but would I still get fired? Could I forgive myself?

Great, I've got someone else's shit and piss all over me for the third time this week.

And then, much later...well, just imagine, after all that, how it feels to see someone watch a massively abbreviated news report on the incident, form an entire opinion based upon that miniscule amount of information (and their complete lack of qualified expertise or experience) and condemn me for my decisions. As weird as it sounds, this is my job - my expertise. Criticizing me for how I deal with a shit covered maniac is no different than you walking in on an open heart surgery and telling the surgeon he's using the wrong scalpel.

Don't let the media form your opinions. Understand that investigations can take a very long time. Most importantly, understand that these situations are often so massively complicated that no journalist could ever truly convey all of the details - especially what's going on in my head when I have to make that critical, life altering decision.

When it comes down to it, if it's between a cop's life or a threat, the threat will nearly always get neutralized. Cops are humans to and have a home to go to.

So if you're not a cop and don't listen to what a cop says you should do, odds are, it won't end very well for you.

When it comes down to what is happening down there, many people are at fault.

First, the protesters not being more organized. Secondly, the rioters who aren't even from that place taking advantage of the situation. Thirdly, the police for escalating the problem with their militarization and lastly the big wigs of that place of having a mostly white police force with less than a handful black cops in a place where 75% of the population is black.

John Oliver covered it nicely.

The whole situation is dreadful, a joke... but don't take it out on other folks who do this for a living like Frank and OC.

Aug 20, 2014#174

DarkAudit

I so want to yoink that to post on tumblr... in spite of the shitstorm it will release in response.

Aug 20, 2014#175

Dave

Fuck 'em. Some people can't handle hard truth because thinkin's tough!

Aug 20, 2014#176

Tiger Tsang

GasBandit said:
Bear in mind that LGF is no more credible than Gateway Pundit.

Care to point out anything in that article that's not correct? Or point out any official reports that Wilson was injured. Not someone saying 'officials reported' but actual officials reporting.

Aug 20, 2014#177

DarkAudit

@Jay, if you have a tumblr, you should post that, all of it, word for word, with the video. Just leave out Frank and OC by name.

Aug 20, 2014#178

Hailey Knight

Dave said:
I'm not even saying Charlie needs to shut up. He's allowed his opinions, even if I disagree with them. But like everything else with free speech, you are responsible for the content of your actions. So while he doesn't need to shut up, he does need to apologize.

That's kind of the problem though. Espy's saying Charlie needs to take it from 11 to 5-7; I think the reason Charlie does shut up (so, zero) is because it's either 0 or 11 with him. He's been the bad face of good things frequently in the past.

But as I said in Gas's sticky thread, he was right about the militarization of police. Still shouldn't be attacking O_C over it, but if he wants to go "I told you so", I don't have a leg to stand on to tell him to stop. I made fun of him too.

Aug 20, 2014#179

ThatNickGuy

I'm certainly not going to defend the actions of Officer Wilson, but I also won't assume he's in the wrong, either. We don't know all the details of what transpired. Sadly, things like this happen all the time with police officers, who need to make these quick decisions and sometimes, they make the wrong one which costs someone their life. Whatever transpired is up to the courts or Internal Affairs or wherever it should have lead.

What I WILL renounce is all of the FPD's actions ever since the shooting. If they had been open about the investigation in the first place - much like someone else mentioned that New York does on a regular basis - AND let the protesters peacefully protest as they had begun, then none of this would have happen. But day after day, night after night, the FPD has only allowed things to worsen with extraordinarily over the top and unnecessary means. The sound cannon, the tear gas, the rubber bullets, the National Guard. None of it was necessary at all. The only reason the National Guard was called in is because they let it escalate to this point and the protesters are now overshadowed by outsiders.

Now? Honestly, it's going to take a miracle for any kind of normalcy to return to Ferguson.

Additionally, I agree with @Dave. Charlie should apologize because that was completely out of line. Par for the course for Charlie, though. As I said in the past, he's not even a person. He's just a caricature of a person who gets off on riling up people on the board.

Aug 20, 2014#180

Hailey Knight

DarkAudit said:
@Jay, if you have a tumblr, you should post that, all of it, word for word, with the video. Just leave out Frank and OC by name.

Considering Jay's personality, do you really think he'd put up with the nonsense on Tumblr?

Aug 20, 2014#181

Jay

DarkAudit said:
@Jay, if you have a tumblr, you should post that, all of it, word for word, with the video. Just leave out Frank and OC by name.

I don't have one. Just edit it yourself bud.

Aug 20, 2014#182

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
I'm certainly not going to defend the actions of Officer Wilson, but I also won't assume he's in the wrong, either. We don't know all the details of what transpired. Sadly, things like this happen all the time with police officers, who need to make these quick decisions and sometimes, they make the wrong one which costs someone their life.

What I WILL renounce is all of the FPD's actions ever since the shooting. If they had been open about the investigation in the first place - much like someone else mentioned that New York does on a regular basis - AND let the protesters peacefully protest as they had begun, then none of this would have happen. But day after day, night after night, the FPD has only allowed things to worsen with extraordinarily over the top and unnecessary means. The sound cannon, the tear gas, the rubber bullets, the National Guard. None of it was necessary at all. The only reason the National Guard was called in is because they let it escalate to this point and the protesters are now overshadowed by outsiders.

Now? Honestly, it's going to take a miracle for any kind of normalcy to return to Ferguson.

Well, there were looters shortly after the vigil, but two mistakes Ferguson PD made at the start:
1. They took a "let God sort 'em out" approach, failing to differentiate between a rioter/looter breaking into a store, a peaceful protester standing outside a church, any pedestrian with a phone-camera, or a reporter. Each of these are different people, but the Ferguson PD treated them all the same.
2. They came at a scale 4 situation with a scale 9 response, because they could, because they were given the toys to do so.

Things were going peacefully last night, and then someone threw a water bottle at the police and they EXPLODED. The person hid in the media area, so the police had to go through there, for some reason still macing a reporter in the process. I'm not sure why they had to encircle the protesters though--maybe they didn't know this person went into the media area at first.

I'm gonna hazard a guess he wasn't from Ferguson.

Aug 20, 2014#183

GasBandit

Tiger Tsang said:
Care to point out anything in that article that's not correct? Or point out any official reports that Wilson was injured. Not someone saying 'officials reported' but actual officials reporting.

I already said Gateway Pundit wasn't identifying his sources, and that it called into question the nature or even existence of the officer's injuries. But Little Green Footballs has just as big a political axe to grind, if not bigger. Right now a healthy dose of skepticism for just about all blog posts, tweets and even actual "reporting" coming out of Ferguson is probably the best armor until the roaring dies down and things that are verifiable/corroborated with sources (and clear, smooth youtube videos) begin to manifest.

Aug 20, 2014#184

GasBandit

St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch says it could be the middle of October before his office has presented all of the evidence in the Michael Brown killing to the grand jury - @stltoday

Aug 20, 2014#185

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch says it could be the middle of October before his office has presented all of the evidence in the Michael Brown killing to the grand jury - @stltoday

I'm not saying they should rush this, but ... two months to do anything? I don't think a grand jury is required to press charges, correct?

Aug 20, 2014#186

GasBandit

Zero Esc said:
I'm not saying they should rush this, but ... two months to do anything? I don't think a grand jury is required to press charges, correct?

Grand Juries are for indictments in cases where they need to figure out if a crime has in fact been committed.... so kinda yeah.

Aug 20, 2014#187

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Grand Juries are for indictments in cases where they need to figure out if a crime has in fact been committed.... so kinda yeah.

Well, alright then.

I have a feeling by then Ferguson will be lucky to still be standing.

Aug 20, 2014#188

fade

I would wager that many people with at least average intelligence would acknowledge that a police officer is in mortal danger and the fear stemming from it on a daily basis. But, and here's the big but, how much of that fear is tied to inherent racism in our society, infecting that officer? No doubt it's terrifying to be alone in the dark in front of someone holding something unknown in front of you. No argument whatsoever. But the question a lot of people have is how much of that fear is engendered--like it or not--by the simple fact that the man holding the object is black? How much more likely are we to weight the potential for violence from the man in front of us because the man is black? Probably more than we like to admit.

I don't like it when people put this all on the police, as if they're some separate zombie force. They're the product of our society, too, and if there is an issue of racism in police action, it's the symptom of a society that still pushes this kind of thought.

Aug 20, 2014#189

SpecialKO

Even Ray Kelly thinks Ferguson PD have gone too far.

As an occasional New Yorker...

Aug 20, 2014#190

Dave

Aug 20, 2014#191

Fun Size

Me personally, I find scary looking white people far more frightening that scary looking black people, but that's only because scary looking black people are historically less likely to torture and\or eat me.

Aug 20, 2014#192

sixpackshaker

SpecialKO said:
Even Ray Kelly thinks Ferguson PD have gone too far.

As an occasional New Yorker...

one commenter... "Son of Sam calls John Wayne Gacy a savage".

Aug 20, 2014#193

Hailey Knight

Dave said:

"I will fucking kill you." Wow.

Fun Size said:
Me personally, I find scary looking white people far more frightening that scary looking black people, but that's only because scary looking black people are historically less likely to torture and\or eat me.

A through-marriage relative I know in Florida said, "I was mugged by a black guy a couple years ago, so no way I'd vote for one." And this was perfectly logical to him, and unfortunately to his now-adult son. I don't think people consider history, more just whatever they're taught, be it hatred or acceptance. I may have said this before, but for all I know I'm only not a racist because my mom never judges anyone for anything, and though I can't claim to be that passive, I did learn by example.[DOUBLEPOST=1408558274,1408557904][/DOUBLEPOST]Then there's this point:

Which some will disagree, but I think is a good point.

Aug 20, 2014#194

Eriol

Zero, as much as that's true, and bad, there's also a whole LOT of people who only voted for Obama because he's black. It's a different sort of racism. Or sexism, for those who their primary reason is because somebody is a certain gender. If you vote FOR somebody because they are NOT white or a man, that's lauded. But voting FOR them for those reasons is pilloried. I'd rather have it where it's a neutral factor entirely, and assaulted from ALL sides if anybody votes FOR any of those reasons, for or against, but that's unlikely to happen any time soon. It's the reality that only white men can be sexist and racist in "polite society" these days. Nobody else is those things "really".

Or is it?

Aug 20, 2014#195

Charlie Don't Surf

Eriol said:
Zero, as much as that's true, and bad, there's also a whole LOT of people who only voted for Obama because he's black. It's a different sort of racism. Or sexism, for those who their primary reason is because somebody is a certain gender. If you vote FOR somebody because they are NOT white or a man, that's lauded. But voting FOR them for those reasons is pilloried. I'd rather have it where it's a neutral factor entirely, and assaulted from ALL sides if anybody votes FOR any of those reasons, for or against, but that's unlikely to happen any time soon. It's the reality that only white men can be sexist and racist in "polite society" these days. Nobody else is those things "really".

Or is it?

oh my god, fuck off

Aug 20, 2014#196

GasBandit

STFU Charlie.

Aug 20, 2014#197

Charlie Don't Surf

this thread about an unarmed black man getting killed by the cops, and then an entire mostly-black community getting terrorized by tear gas, LRADs, assault rifles pointed, strobe lights into cameras, etc etc etc. In this thread, you want to complain that black people have the privilege to not get called racists?

Aug 20, 2014#198

fade

I'm okay with people voting for someone on the basis of the thing that's being underrepresented and underaddressed. That is, after all, the point of an election. In this case, the mere fact that someone is black is the cause of lots of trouble, so it makes sense to vote for someone on account that he or she can properly represent you, in this case by being black. Being white is not the cause of lots of trouble, nor do I feel like none of the elected officials can represent me properly on the basis of being white. That's really the very thing that makes it not racist. They're not voting against white people, they're voting for a representative black person.

Aug 20, 2014#199

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
this thread about an unarmed black man getting killed by the cops, and then an entire mostly-black community getting terrorized by tear gas, LRADs, assault rifles pointed, strobe lights into cameras, etc etc etc. In this thread, you want to complain that black people have the privilege to not get called racists?

I'm missing an apology somewhere.

Aug 20, 2014#200

Covar

Strobe lights into cameras? The horrors!

Aug 20, 2014#201

GasBandit

LOUD NOISES

Though it did kind of surprise me that the cops have LRADs but not Microwave ADS's.

Aug 20, 2014#202

PatrThom

I'm finding Charlie's most recent posts in this thread more provocative than illuminating.

Charlie, I don't in any way mean to suggest that you don't have cause to be angry about this situation (I assume you do), but I think you are letting your emotions overrule your judgement. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether or not you apologize, but you need to consider whether metaphorically starting fires in wastebaskets on an Internet forum that is in no way directly connected to the incident is really an effective/appropriate way to protest this incident.

--Patrick

Aug 20, 2014#203

blotsfan

Charlie is probably the only person who causes me to seriously question my beliefs by arguing the same side.

Aug 20, 2014#204

Dave

Well, his assertion that black guys can't be racist is just patently naive. People from every race can be racist. Hell, people of the SAME race find things to hate about each other based on ludicrously stupid reasons. Women can be sexist, too. Does either of these things make it better when they are discriminated against? Hell no. But to give carte blanche to one group's actions is just dumb. I will agree that it could be put in as a red herring based on the topic, so that could be his angle.

But I'm still not seeing an apology to O_C from him yet.

Aug 20, 2014#205

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm sorry I called you a fascist, I also don't think you're a murderer @Officer_Charon

Aug 20, 2014#206

Dave

Thank you.

Aug 20, 2014#207

fade

I still don't get painting everyone from the same group with the same brush as a valid attack on ... painting everyone from the same group with the same brush.

Aug 20, 2014#208

Hailey Knight

Dave said:
Thank you.

You're such a dad.

Aug 20, 2014#209

Dave

I gotta stick with my strengths.

Aug 20, 2014#210

GasBandit

[Dadding Intensifies]

Aug 20, 2014#211

Bowielee

Dave said:
Well, his assertion that black guys can't be racist is just patently naive. People from every race can be racist. Hell, people of the SAME race find things to hate about each other based on ludicrously stupid reasons. Women can be sexist, too. Does either of these things make it better when they are discriminated against? Hell no. But to give carte blanche to one group's actions is just dumb. I will agree that it could be put in as a red herring based on the topic, so that could be his angle.

But I'm still not seeing an apology to O_C from him yet.

Here's the thing about racism. Racism can cut a wide swath of meaning and usually muddies the waters in discussions of this type. A better term to use would be racial discrimination. This fits better in all these discussions because what we're really talking about is using the race of a person as a basis for power, or lack thereof. I find that often people talk about racism when they actually mean racial discrimination. As the Avenue Q song goes, everyone is a little bit racist, and this is totally true. We process racial biases on an unconscious level, so it will never ever be eradicated. Even if we were to find some way to change everyone in the world to genderless, raceless, sexless blobs, we would find something else to use to identify in and out groups. We as human beings base a great deal of our identity based on our relations to others, mainly similarities and differences. So, yes, anyone from any race can be racist, but really, that's not the issue.

Now, if we look at racial discrimination, that is a horse of a different color. It's about actually treating people differently based solely on their race. It's about actual real world actions. In the real world, what's occurring is not cool and there are many people in the wrong. In the real world, it's much more common for a black person to be racially discriminated against. That doesn't say that white people never are, but it's far less likely. This boils down to the same problems with the feminism argument, or any other group based -ism argument.

Aug 20, 2014#212

Hailey Knight

Twitter feeds abuzz that police have raided a church in Ferguson that was stocked with food, gas masks, tear gas recovery kits, and taken all of it.

Aug 20, 2014#213

Espy

Zero Esc said:
Twitter feeds abuzz that police have raided a church in Ferguson that was stocked with food, gas masks, tear gas recovery kits, and taken all of it.

This is getting stupid. This is going to end terribly and we Americans are just going to roll over for these thugs. Why aren't the "protect are freedoms with every breath in our bodies/don't tread on me" people getting involved here? This seems perfectly set up for them. Or maybe I missed it and they are?

Aug 20, 2014#214

GasBandit

Espy said:
This is getting stupid. This is going to end terribly and we Americans are just going to roll over for these thugs. Why aren't the "protect are freedoms with every breath in our bodies/don't tread on me" people getting involved here? This seems perfectly set up for them. Or maybe I missed it and they are?

We already had this discussion on pages 1 and 2 of this thread.

But reader's digest version... MO is an open carry state. Anyone who wants a gun there, pretty much has one. The fact that there hasn't been civilians shooting at cops tells me there's more going on on the ground than media (either social or conventional) is telling us. Furthermore, the whole point of the protests is that they are being peaceful. If people start "voting from the rooftops" now they surrender the high ground and give the police justification for what they are doing and more, and not help the cause nor the people of Ferguson. Remember, the 2nd amendment solution is the last resort, not the first. Also, as noted, most of the troublemakers/arrested people are not actually from Ferguson, they're outside agitators looking to stir shit up.

Aug 20, 2014#215

Dave

GasBandit said:
We already had this discussion on pages 1 and 2 of this thread.

But reader's digest version... MO is an open carry state. Anyone who wants a gun there, pretty much has one. The fact that there hasn't been civilians shooting at cops tells me there's more going on on the ground than media (either social or conventional) is telling us. Furthermore, the whole point of the protests is that they are being peaceful. If people start "voting from the rooftops" now they surrender the high ground and give the police justification for what they are doing and more, and not help the cause nor the people of Ferguson. Remember, the 2nd amendment solution is the last resort, not the first. Also, as noted, most of the troublemakers/arrested people are not actually from Ferguson, they're outside agitators looking to stir shit up.

One guy has been arrested three or four times. He's from Texas. Another couple were from Chicago.

Aug 20, 2014#216

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
Also, as noted, most of the troublemakers/arrested people are not actually from Ferguson, they're outside agitators looking to stir shit up.

That's really the worst part of it. That some people want the situation on the ground to escalate further is terrifying.[DOUBLEPOST=1408571288,1408571043][/DOUBLEPOST]NYTimes update on the situation has some interesting bits, including an official Ferguson PD statement.

However, law enforcement officials say witnesses and forensic analysis have shown that Officer Wilson did sustain an injury during the struggle in the car.
As Officer Wilson got out of his car, the men were running away. The officer fired his weapon but did not hit anyone, according to law enforcement officials.

Aug 20, 2014#217

Espy

GasBandit said:
We already had this discussion on pages 1 and 2 of this thread.

But reader's digest version... MO is an open carry state. Anyone who wants a gun there, pretty much has one. The fact that there hasn't been civilians shooting at cops tells me there's more going on on the ground than media (either social or conventional) is telling us. Furthermore, the whole point of the protests is that they are being peaceful. If people start "voting from the rooftops" now they surrender the high ground and give the police justification for what they are doing and more, and not help the cause nor the people of Ferguson. Remember, the 2nd amendment solution is the last resort, not the first. Also, as noted, most of the troublemakers/arrested people are not actually from Ferguson, they're outside agitators looking to stir shit up.

I hear you, it just seems like kind of exactly what people are worried about in the anti-big government crowd. I'm not being sarcastic either, it seriously seems like the abuses and oversteps here are ripe for their protesting power.

I'm not denying it's probably better they aren't there, just kind of surprised.

Aug 20, 2014#218

Hailey Knight

I'm guessing the guy who put down the second sign could be charged with vandalism.

Gas has it right. The protestors have the high ground and people are supporting them across the country. They forfeit that, they might as well stop. None of them want this to escalate. It's only outsiders who figure this is their Purge area. The Ferguson PD are armed for war; the protestors need to only give them peaceful resistance.

Aug 20, 2014#219

Espy

Like I said, I'm not advocating for it, it was just a thought that struck me.

Aug 20, 2014#220

GasBandit

Espy said:
Like I said, I'm not advocating for it, it was just a thought that struck me.

As libertarian as I am, I have to say that the system apparently hasn't completely broken down yet. There's still an investigation going on, and a prosecutor is presenting evidence to a grand jury. The police are definitely overmilitarized, however there's been shockingly few instances of injuries or fatalities from violence. We consider the actions of the FPD here to be unacceptable, but not yet completely beyond addressing. Hard as it might be to imagine, it could be worse. Instead of using non-lethal/crowd control ordinance, they could be shooting real bullets, beating protestors to death, or driving APCs over them. I think then you'd see a "2nd amendment solution" come to the fore.

Aug 20, 2014#221

Krisken

stienman said:
I'm pretty sure that if a study were performed (maybe one has been?) that measures someone's fear response to videos of threatening people, that a threatening black guy would result in a more fearful response than a threatening white guy.

Of course, and it's in large part due to the media and how they report things.

Aug 20, 2014#222

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
We process racial biases on an unconscious level, so it will never ever be eradicated. Even if we were to find some way to change everyone in the world to genderless, raceless, sexless blobs, we would find something else to use to identify in and out groups.

This is why any aliens probably won't invite us to their federation. Once we realize there are "others" out there, humanity will focus its distaste of "the others" against the aliens. Minorities will probably love it, though.

Zero Esc said:
I'm guessing the guy who put down the second sign could be charged with vandalism.

I'm guessing any conviction of this would ultimately be overturned...since it is, in itself, an exercise of 1st amendment rights.

--Patrick

Aug 20, 2014#223

DarkAudit

so... I posted Jay's post from here nearly word for word. The expected shitstorm didn't happen. I got exactly one like, one reblog, and one comment. All from here.

So it goes.

Aug 21, 2014#224

Charlie Don't Surf

DarkAudit said:
so... I posted Jay's post from here nearly word for word. The expected shitstorm didn't happen. I got exactly one like, one reblog, and one comment. All from here.

So it goes.

Good, it's completely irrelevant to this discussion

I'm also shocked, SHOCKED that the police raided a church and stole supplies to aid people suffering from the effects of tear gas

Aug 21, 2014#225

DarkAudit

Nope. You're just going "LALALALA can't hear you!"

Aug 21, 2014#226

Hailey Knight

Apparently the tear gas being used by the Ferguson PD causes miscarriages. While I agree on Gas's point why 2nd amendment supporters aren't going into Ferguson guns blazing, why aren't all the groups who lobby against Roe v Wade or picket abortion clinics or pass laws that close abortion clinics saying or doing anything in response to this?

I mean, I have a theory*, but maybe someone has a fact.

*

They don't give a shit 'cause odds are it's only black women/fetuses.

In other news, crowd was dwindling last night. If the Ferguson PD can keep their hands off for another week, they may not have to worry about this further and everything can go back to its previously-perfect (for them) status quo. But I doubt they can.

Aug 21, 2014#227

GasBandit

Crowds dwindled last night, from what I read, because there was a heavy thunderstorm.

Aug 21, 2014#228

evilmike

They have released video footage of another black man shot by police this week in the St. Louis area:

(via PINAC)

Aug 21, 2014#229

Dave

That guy was threatening and trying to start shit. I watched it earlier and he's yelling, "SHOOT ME!" while rushing at the cops with a knife.

Not sure why so many shots, but that could be adrenaline.

Aug 21, 2014#230

Espy

Yeah, thats called suicide by cop by a mentally ill person. It's a shame there wasn't a non-lethal way to take him down so he could get some real help.

Aug 21, 2014#231

GasBandit

The Governor has now ordered the National Guard to withdraw from Ferguson, the Highway Patrol will remain in charge.

Aug 21, 2014#232

LittleSin

GasBandit said:
The Governor has now ordered the National Guard to withdraw from Ferguson, the Highway Patrol will remain in charge.

Do they think its over or something?

Aug 21, 2014#233

GasBandit

LittleSin said:
Do they think its over or something?

We'll see if suddenly they're ordered back in after the first night without a thunderstorm (which may be tonight, I don't know what the weather is right now in St. Louis)

Aug 21, 2014#234

sixpackshaker

Espy said:
Yeah, thats called suicide by cop by a mentally ill person. It's a shame there wasn't a non-lethal way to take him down so he could get some real help.

A cop can not respond to lethal force with non-lethal force.

Aug 21, 2014#235

Charlie Don't Surf

Not yet anyways.

And you're not even going to get me arguing against a shooting like that. If our country spent maybe like 1% of what we spend on improving ways to kill people on inventing a ranged non-lethal knock out type of gun, we would have probably invented it ten years ago.

Also, here's an interesting perspective. I haven't really digested it yet, so don't count this as me endorsing all that is said in. I just like sharing some far-leftish / radical things to counteract "In Support Of Darren Wilson", maybe stuff people might not have read otherwise

edit: link helps http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/in-defense-of-looting/

Aug 21, 2014#236

AshburnerX

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Not yet anyways. And you're not even going to get me arguing against a shooting like that. If our country spent maybe like 1% of what we spend on improving ways to kill people on inventing a ranged non-lethal knock out type of gun, we would have probably invented it ten years ago.

We're actually trying very hard to do this. Some of the things we've tried so far...

- High frequency flashing lights. Shelved because it can cause lethal seizures.
- Pepper spray paint balls, augmented with foul smelling stuff. Shelved because it doesn't work, just like pepper spray.
- Stun darts fired from a shotgun. Shelved because it doesn't work with heavy clothing, just like a taser.
- Rubber batons fired from a grenade launcher. Occasionally used, but it has all the same problems of using rubber bullets.
- Various types of gases. We still use tear gas, which CAN be lethal.
- Beanbag rounds for shotguns. We use these and they work better than rubber bullets (it's like getting smacked with a baseball) but it's not like most departments have auto-shotguns to really make them effective.

I assure... we are trying REALLY HARD to find an effective non-lethal option. It's just a much harder objective than just killing a guy.

Aug 21, 2014#237

Bowielee

I'd just like to point out that it is possible to shoot someone non-lethally.

Aug 21, 2014#238

sixpackshaker

Bowielee said:
I'd just like to point out that it is possible to shoot someone non-lethally.

But then why shoot them?

If they are not showing lethal intent, you keep talking. But once they are in a position to threaten a life, it is the citizen's safety, then the officer's safety that comes above the perpetrator.

Aug 21, 2014#239

GasBandit

The second thing you learn when learning to shoot (the first being "treat all guns as if they are loaded, even when you know they are not") is that you don't shoot at something you are not trying to kill. Guns are for killing. Forget everything you've heard or seen about trick shot artists or disabling shots or shooting legs/feet. If you shoot, you shoot to kill. You aim for center mass, you double tap. Doing otherwise just increases the danger, both to yourself (for running a much higher risk of not actually stopping your assailant) and someone else that may catch the ricochet of the shot you were trying to be fancy with when it missed his ankle, bounced off the pavement, and smacked someone down the road in the head.

All that, and there's not a spot on the body anywhere that you can reasonably assume you'll be able to hit perfectly to not kill someone. Shooting someone in the leg can be just as deadly if you hit an artery.

Aug 21, 2014#240

Bowielee

Even shooting center mass doesn't guarantee death. Pumping multiple rounds into someone, however, does.

Aug 21, 2014#241

Charlie Don't Surf

There is no way to shoot non-lethally. Guns are killing machines. There is no function of them or use that isn't trying to end someone's life as swiftly and messily as possible.

Aug 21, 2014#242

Bowielee

I feel like I should keep this post bookmarked for the next time the gun discussion comes up and people try to say that guns have a purpose other than killing. We've got our leading second amendment defender straight up admitting that guns have no other purpose

Aug 21, 2014#243

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Even shooting center mass doesn't guarantee death. Pumping multiple rounds into someone, however, does.

Heck, even shooting someone in the head doesn't "guarantee" death. But center mass is the best way to give yourself the highest probability of hitting.. and it happens to be where we store most of our important guts.[DOUBLEPOST=1408652888,1408652836][/DOUBLEPOST]

Bowielee said:
I feel like I should keep this post bookmarked for the next time the gun discussion comes up and people try to say that guns have a purpose other than killing. We've got our leading second amendment defender straight up admitting that guns have no other purpose

Well, you can also use them to cause sonar shockwaves for 3d underground mapping, but you generally don't do that as a form of defense.

Aug 21, 2014#244

Bowielee

Either way, in that video, I would definitely qualify the amount of shots fired as excessive force.

Aug 21, 2014#245

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
Either way, in that video, I would definitely qualify the amount of shots fired as excessive force.

How many shots are not excessive but still effective? Bear in mind it often takes multiple shots to take down someone with hard drugs in their system, which is often the case in those who are belligerent toward groups of plainly armed police officers.

Aug 21, 2014#246

Bowielee

They shot over ten shots. They were looking to stop, they were indulging their Dirty Harry fantasies.

Aug 21, 2014#247

GasBandit

Bowielee said:
They shot over ten shots. They were looking to stop, they were indulging their Dirty Harry fantasies.

The question stands. Ok, Let's say 10 is too much and 1 is too little. Where's "enough?" And what supports that claim?

Aug 21, 2014#248

Charlie Don't Surf

https://twitter.com/JulianCummings/status/502541265335234561

No fractured eye socket or even a bruised eye socket for the honorable, still-getting-paid on administrative leave, Officer Wilson.

Aug 21, 2014#249

sixpackshaker

Rubber bullet guy has an unnamed source...

Aug 21, 2014#250

GasBandit

"A source close to the investigation." IE, same thing the Gateway Pundit said for his source.

Ryan J Reilly was the rubber bullet guy.

Aug 21, 2014#251

Bowielee

stienman said:
Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

Read, and your point?

Aug 21, 2014#252

Officer_Charon

Bowie, you're an intelligent guy. Put yourself in a situation, REALLY put yourself in the shoes of an officer.

You're responding to a call of a disorderly suspect, armed with a knife. You arrive Onscene, the man is there, brandishing his weapon. You keep your distance, as you're trained to. The man continues to advance on you. Your heart jackhammers in your chest. Your vision blackens around the edges as your primordial brain begins disabling your peripheral functions in favor of those required to keep your body moving. Your mind races as you shout loud verbal commands: "drop the knife! Do it now! Come on, man, it doesn't have to be like this!" But still he advances, rapidly, charging you or your partner.

Can you draw a taser? Sure! If you're thinking on it, and are certain you can disable him with that shot. But you're being presented with lethal force - and you're trained to respond to such with lethal force in kind.

It is scientifically proven that under stress, the mind resorts to the lowest level of training. Your lizard brain knows that the gun WILL stop the threat. And you're not trained to aim for arms or legs - under extreme stress, a person is lucky to hit center mass.

I have been in a situation where I've had to be ready to shoot to defend another officer's life. I've also tased a consumer who had just slit his own throat with a box-cutter, but was wielding the knife and threatening medical and police personnel trying to assist.

I've seen both sides of it. Neither is pretty.

Also, apologies to all for my outburst the other day. And while I don't think it was necessary, I accept Charlie's apology, and appreciate all of you who spoke on my behalf. I blame the tiredness, stress from work, and personal nature of this subject.

Aug 21, 2014#253

PatrThom

AshburnerX said:
we are trying REALLY HARD to find an effective non-lethal option. It's just a much harder objective than just killing a guy.

Other things which have been tried: Net guns, high-pressure sticky toothpaste-like dispensers (think "The Trapster/Paste-pot Pete"), bola throwers, water cannons, sound cannons, etc. Many, MANY things have been tried, it is just about impossible to make something "non-lethal," so "less lethal" is as good as it gets.

GasBandit said:
The question stands. Ok, Let's say 10 is too much and 1 is too little. Where's "enough?" And what supports that claim?

Ah, the paradox of the heap.

--Patrick

Aug 21, 2014#254

Bowielee

Officer_Charon said:
Bowie, you're an intelligent guy. Put yourself in a situation, REALLY put yourself in the shoes of an officer.

You're responding to a call of a disorderly suspect, armed with a knife. You arrive Onscene, the man is there, brandishing his weapon. You keep your distance, as you're trained to. The man continues to advance on you. Your heart jackhammers in your chest. Your vision blackens around the edges as your primordial brain begins disabling your peripheral functions in favor of those required to keep your body moving. Your mind races as you shout loud verbal commands: "drop the knife! Do it now! Come on, man, it doesn't have to be like this!" But still he advances, rapidly, charging you or your partner.

Can you draw a taser? Sure! If you're thinking on it, and are certain you can disable him with that shot. But you're being presented with lethal force - and you're trained to respond to such with lethal force in kind.

It is scientifically proven that under stress, the mind resorts to the lowest level of training. Your lizard brain knows that the gun WILL stop the threat. And you're not trained to aim for arms or legs - under extreme stress, a person is lucky to hit center mass.

I have been in a situation where I've had to be ready to shoot to defend another officer's life. I've also tased a consumer who had just slit his own throat with a box-cutter, but was wielding the knife and threatening medical and police personnel trying to assist.

I've seen both sides of it. Neither is pretty.

Also, apologies to all for my outburst the other day. And while I don't think it was necessary, I accept Charlie's apology, and appreciate all of you who spoke on my behalf. I blame the tiredness, stress from work, and personal nature of this subject.

I have never suggested that they should not have responded with gunfire. My father was police officer, and he's the one who taught me to shoot guns in the first place. I used to practice on the sheriff office paper targets. I understand that a couple of shots to center mass are standard procedure.

Unloading into a suspect who is already on the ground from a few gunshots without a gun is excessive.

Aug 21, 2014#255

jwhouk

In re: excessive use of force.

On third shift, in my institution, there have been (before I moved up there) a couple of attempts at youth "hiding" in the bathroom (or some unlocked closet or office) and then attempting to overpower the single third shift staff in the building. It is the primary reason why there is no single key for any staff office or room in each living unit.

I have gone over this in my brain multiple times. I have come to the following conclusion, and I've even verbalized it to myself at night. If a youth is out of his/her room without permission when I am the only staff in the building at the time, I will be making three assumptions:

1. The youth is intent on attempting to escape or leave the building;
2. To do so, the youth is likely to employ some sort of weapon or use of physical force against me;
3. I have the right to act within my level of training to prevent him/her from doing so - up to and including severe incapacitation methods. (I do not carry a gun while I am on grounds, nor do any LEO's; we have too many youth who have attempted to resist arrest and grab the guns of cops as part of their charges.)

Such an event has never happened to me, either at EAS or here at LHS/CLS. I pray that it never will, and I make sure every night that it won't.

Aug 21, 2014#256

Krisken

Aug 21, 2014#257

Hailey Knight

Officer "Go fuck yourself" has been suspended indefinitely.

Aug 21, 2014#258

Krisken

Yeah, prolly for the best.

Aug 21, 2014#259

Hailey Knight

And some stuff I wish I hadn't read, these are messages in donations in the Officer Wilson fundraising campaign. For the record, I know no one can choose who donates to them; this is just some sick shit.

"Waste of good ammo. It’s my privilege to buy you a replacement box."
"All self-respecting whites have a moral responsibility to support our growing number of martyrs to the failed experiment called diversity."
"I thank all Police, you are the ‘Thin Blue Line’ protecting normal Americans from aggressive and entitled primitive savages. America is surely at the tipping point."

Aug 21, 2014#260

Dave

When it comes to guns, the first thing they teach you is to go for body mass. Going for an arm, leg, head, or gun hand (groan) is almost impossible on a moving target. My guess is the shots that hit the head were not on purpose. Not that it matters, mind you, just observations from a guy who can shoot.

Aug 21, 2014#261

Hailey Knight

Dave said:
When it comes to guns, the first thing they teach you is to go for body mass. Going for an arm, leg, head, or gun hand (groan) is almost impossible on a moving target. My guess is the shots that hit the head were not on purpose. Not that it matters, mind you, just observations from a guy who can shoot.

Tell that to your cat.

Aug 21, 2014#262

PatrThom

Yes. You go for center of mass not only because it is easier to hit your target, but also because hitting your target makes it less likely that you will overpenetrate or miss and hit other things that are not your target (property, bystanders, etc.). Leave the fancy precision shooting to the S.W.A.T. folks.

GasBandit said:
The second thing you learn when learning to shoot (the first being "treat all guns as if they are loaded, even when you know they are not") is that you don't shoot at something you are not trying to kill. Guns are for killing. Forget everything you've heard or seen about trick shot artists or disabling shots or shooting legs/feet. If you shoot, you shoot to kill.

I would argue that drawing or even merely exhibiting your weapon means that you are advertising your willingness to kill. I know that States put more restriction on concealed v. open carry, but it seems to me that concealed carry = "Take it easy, we're all friends here," whereas open carry = "Don't be getting any stupid ideas involving me or I might kill you," i.e., poison arrow frog.

--Patrick

Aug 21, 2014#263

Hailey Knight

Sigh at one of my sisters, whose solution to police brutality is that people stop filming it, and just make videos of when police do good things. While I do think good police work should be highlighted, I think really she's just tired of seeing the videos everywhere since the Ferguson stuff began.

In other news, Ferguson protest leaders sound like they're getting ready to pack it in at this rate, saying they've shown what's going on, can't keep staying out all night getting gassed and harassed. Can't blame them; I couldn't have been out there in this shit for so many days.

PatrThom said:
I would argue that drawing or even merely exhibiting your weapon means that you are advertising your willingness to kill. I know that States put more restriction on concealed v. open carry, but it seems to me that concealed carry = "Take it easy, we're all friends here," whereas open carry = "Don't be getting any stupid ideas involving me or I might kill you," i.e., poison arrow frog.

--Patrick

This reminds me of a conversation in a Discworld book, I think The Fifth Elephant, when police guy Vimes discovers someone is an assassin with a hidden weapon. Vimes calls it a weapon meant to kill people. The assassin says that all weapons are meant to kill people. Vimes disagrees, saying that the big swords, axes, etc. that most people carry openly prevent killing because this way people openly tell each other they're dangerous. A hidden weapon only has the purpose of killing someone, since it doesn't give away that the person holding it is lethal.

Aug 21, 2014#264

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
A hidden weapon only has the purpose of killing someone, since it doesn't give away that the person holding it is lethal.

We already assume every gun we haven't inspected is loaded, so why don't we just as automatically treat every uninspected person as though they are carrying? Or at a minimum assume that they could potentially kill us. It's 100% true, you know, even if they aren't carrying. Visible weapons = ++Anxiety. Civilization may ultimately be a lie we tell ourselves, but it is one that permits us to play nice with one another. Why deliberately shatter that illusion?

--Patrick

Aug 21, 2014#265

Hailey Knight

PatrThom said:
We already assume every gun we haven't inspected is loaded, so why don't we just as automatically treat every uninspected person as though they are carrying? Or at a minimum assume that they could potentially kill us. It's 100% true, you know, even if they aren't carrying. Visible weapons = ++Anxiety. Civilization may ultimately be a lie we tell ourselves, but it is one that permits us to play nice with one another. Why shatter the illusion?

--Patrick

I already assume anyone can kill anyone. It's why I tell my wife to stop screaming at people who do stupid shit at a stoplight. The last time, the woman ahead got out of her car, made some hand sign, and got back in. That hand could've easily held a gun. One day it's gonna be the wrong person who doesn't care about the consequences under the law.

Aug 21, 2014#266

DarkAudit

PatrThom said:
We already assume every gun we haven't inspected is loaded, so why don't we just as automatically treat every uninspected person as though they are carrying? Or at a minimum assume that they could potentially kill us. It's 100% true, you know, even if they aren't carrying.

I think you've just described the entire TSA training manual.

Aug 21, 2014#267

PatrThom

DarkAudit said:
I think you've just described the entire TSA training manual.

The thing the manual leaves out, though, is that since it's so universally true JUST GET OVER IT and live your life already rather than punishing people for being "scary*." If you advertise that you can't feel safe around someone until and unless you've anally violated them (literally or figuratively), then you are the problem**.

--Patrick
*Not because they're actually scary (regardless whether they are or not), but because they are "other/unknown."
**Spoiler alert: I think the TSA, as it is now, is a useless and egregious waste of time and should be dissolved.

Aug 22, 2014#268

GasBandit

Some interesting reading on the recent St. Louis shooting -

http://imgur.com/gallery/l62iF

Aug 22, 2014#269

Charlie Don't Surf

Has anyone here disagreed with the St Louis shooting? or anywhere?

Aug 22, 2014#270

SpecialKO

We could probably find someone if someone has LaQuack's email.

Aug 22, 2014#271

SpecialKO

Ferguson PD releases Michael Brown incident report to the ACLU...and it's empty.

Aug 22, 2014#272

evilmike

GasBandit said:
The question stands. Ok, Let's say 10 is too much and 1 is too little. Where's "enough?" And what supports that claim?

I ran a small experiment with this. I watched the video with the sound down and paused at the point I thought "Powell is no longer a threat." I then turned up the sound and counted the gunshots. So, my totally subjective answer on how many shots are enough -- "At least 4 fewer shots than were taken."

Aug 22, 2014#273

GasBandit

That better be an "oops forgot attachment" type situation.

Aug 22, 2014#274

SpecialKO

ACLU is also linking to what appears to be the County version, also blank in the particulars.

Aug 22, 2014#275

Officer_Charon

@GasBandit Thank you for linking that imgur article... spot on the money, and far better articulated that anything I could have come up with.

Aug 22, 2014#276

drifter

Whenever I hear about the 21 foot rule, I always think of this guy.

Aug 22, 2014#277

Charlie Don't Surf

Officer_Charon said:
@GasBandit Thank you for linking that imgur article... spot on the money, and far better articulated that anything I could have come up with.

It also had nothing to do with the shooting of Michael Brown.

Aug 22, 2014#278

Emrys

Thank you, Alabama, for reminding me daily why I left.

Aug 22, 2014#279

GasBandit

stienman said:
Very interesting poll about this shooting:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/21/us/100000003068576.mobile.html?_r=0

"There are a lot of racist people in America, just not me or anyone I know" - NY Times Poll.

Aug 22, 2014#280

fade

"I'm not racist or anything, but ...."

Aug 23, 2014#281

Mathias

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-kass-met-0822-20140822-column.html

Where are the riots and outrage for this kid?

Aug 23, 2014#282

PatrThom

Sorry, no hay to be made there.

--Patrick

Aug 23, 2014#283

Sparhawk

Mind quoting the story, I'm not paying a dollar to the Tribune.

Aug 23, 2014#284

PatrThom

Sparhawk said:
Mind quoting the story, I'm not paying a dollar to the Tribune.

Just reload the page, worked for me.

--Patrick

Aug 23, 2014#285

Bowielee

PatrThom said:
Just reload the page, worked for me.

--Patrick

Didn't work for me, either.

Aug 23, 2014#286

drifter

Aug 23, 2014#287

Mathias

http://homicides.suntimes.com/2014/08/21/antonio-smith-9-killed-in-greater-grand-crossing-shooting/

Another source.

Kid essentially gets gunned down (probably gang crossfire). No riots. No one seems to give a shit if children die as long as it's not a school shooter or police doing the murdering.

Aug 23, 2014#288

Bowielee

drifter said:

I have adblock.[DOUBLEPOST=1408819800,1408819735][/DOUBLEPOST]

Mathias said:
http://homicides.suntimes.com/2014/08/21/antonio-smith-9-killed-in-greater-grand-crossing-shooting/

Another source.

Kid essentially gets gunned down (probably gang crossfire). No riots. No one seems to give a shit if children die as long as it's not a school shooter or police doing the murdering.

Well of course the media doesn't care. This kid was the wrong color for the media to care. Had that been a little white boy, you bet the media would be in a frenzy over it.

Aug 23, 2014#289

Bowielee

I should really put that in a less "charlie" way. The reason that there will not be protests and such over this child's death is that there is nothing to protest against. Who are they going to protest, exactly? Would the picket the homes of the gang members?

No one is defending the rights of the gang members to shoot each other and bystanders.

Aug 23, 2014#290

drifter

Bowielee said:
I have adblock.

Add this to your filter list, if you think you might want to read the Tribune sometime in the future.

*http://www.tribdss.com//assets*

Aug 23, 2014#291

GasBandit

Mathias said:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-kass-met-0822-20140822-column.html

Where are the riots and outrage for this kid?

Have to find out what color the shooter is first.

Aug 23, 2014#292

Mathias

GasBandit said:
Have to find out what color the shooter is first.

Most likely black, in which case black on black violence is media priority number 3,001 down the list of reportable news.

Aug 23, 2014#293

Krisken

Mathias said:
Most likely black, in which case black on black violence is media priority number 3,001 down the list of reportable news.

It depends on whether it is national news or local news. Local, it takes top billing every time unless the victim is white. "If it bleeds, it leads" is always the mantra of local news stations.

Aug 24, 2014#294

GasBandit

CNN Anchor Don Lemon has absolutely no idea what an Automatic Weapon is but he sure wants to talk about (read:vilify) them.

Aug 25, 2014#295

Just Me

GasBandit said:
CNN Anchor Don Lemon has absolutely no idea what an Automatic Weapon is but he sure wants to talk about (read:vilify) them.

*ahem*

Aug 25, 2014#296

PatrThom

I still think the spud gun is a nice touch.

--Patrick

Aug 25, 2014#297

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
"There are a lot of racist people in America, just not me or anyone I know" - NY Times Poll.

What really surprised me, is 64% saying they didn't know enough to judge. Technically, that number should be 98% or so, but you usually expect it to be about 10%.

Aug 27, 2014#298

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't know how anyone on earth can read that and think it was necessary to shoot him more than once.

Aug 27, 2014#299

fade

Both sides are so conveniently self-serving that the truth is probably in the middle. I mean, come on. The kids in the street speak like silent movie title cards, and the door just happens to bounce off Brown? On the other side, the officer just begged ever so gently for the kids to get off the street?

Aug 27, 2014#300

Charlie Don't Surf

hey @sixpackshaker , even Wilson himself, who I believe is completely lying off his ass and you believe is a shining defender against thugs everywhere, says that the the shots after the first (which struck Brown in the chest) happened after he was over 10 yards away, with his hands raised and in a kneeling position

Aug 27, 2014#301

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
I hadn't realized he made a public statement. Link?

literally in the link you posted, the things attributed to "Rosie", a source confirmed that they all match up with what Wilson told investigators

Aug 27, 2014#302

sixpackshaker

"And then he said all of a sudden [Michael] just started to bum rush him. He just started coming at him full speed so [Wilson] he just started shooting and he just kept coming. So [Wilson] really thinks [Brown] was on something because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable. And then so he finally ended up, the final shot was in the forehead and then he fell about 2, 3 feet in front of the officer."

That is nothing like what you accuse the officer of doing.

There is no way in hell those wounds were made when the victim had his hands over his head.[DOUBLEPOST=1409164570,1409164538][/DOUBLEPOST]Also you have very little understanding how guns work.

Aug 27, 2014#303

Necronic

stienman said:
A decent side-by-side timeline of the events of the shooting from the two different perspectives:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/08/us/ferguson-brown-timeline/?hpt=us_mid

Has a few pieces of information I wasn't already aware of.

Wow, some of those discrepancies are absolutely hilarious.

Officer said:
"They were walking in the middle of the street. He rolled his window down and said, 'Come on guys. Get out of the street.' They refused to and were yelling back, saying we're almost where we're going and there was some cussing involved

Dorian Johnson said:
The officer tells the young men either "Get the f*** on the sidewalk" or "Get the f*** out of the street," according to Johnson's accounts to CNN and other news outlets.
The young men reply that they are "not but a minute away from our destination, and we would shortly be out of the street," Johnson told CNN.

Seriously Dorian? "Not but a minute from your destination and would shortly be out of the street"? If you're going to lie, at least learn how to lie well. Like in the officers quote.

Aug 27, 2014#304

GasBandit

Well this is a fine how-do-you-do, Officer! I don't like the cut of your jib!

Aug 27, 2014#305

Necronic

That one discrepancy and some other clearly flowery additions by the witnesses, this does still doesn't look great for the officer. Trying to pull the kid into the car and losing control of your gun? Somebody messed up bad here.

Aug 27, 2014#306

sixpackshaker

Necronic said:
That one discrepancy and some other clearly flowery additions by the witnesses, this does still doesn't look great for the officer. Trying to pull the kid into the car and losing control of your gun? Somebody messed up bad here.

The adult was my sized, there is no way in hell a small man can yank me into a car.

Aug 27, 2014#307

blotsfan

My big understanding with this is that forgetting about the killing, the Ferguson police have shown to be ruthless and incompetent. That makes me not inclined to trust their side of the story.

Aug 27, 2014#308

GasBandit

blotsfan said:
My big understanding with this is that forgetting about the killing, the Ferguson police have shown to be ruthless and incompetent. That makes me not inclined to trust their side of the story.

That's most of my feeling as well. I'm still undecided about the initial shooting until I've heard the evidence, but the police response in the days that followed indicate to me that some serious changes need to be made, and there are a lot of FPD cops who need to lose their jobs, especially higher up the chain.

Aug 27, 2014#309

Espy

http://www.startribune.com/local/271538471.html

Just in case there's a problem we have towns with barely a 1000 people in them in our state who have grenade launchers that they don't even know how to use. Because... criminals?

Aug 27, 2014#310

GasBandit

That's one thing I'm glad of - that this situation has started a movement in washington - that is getting traction - to demilitarize the police.

Aug 27, 2014#311

Hailey Knight

Jon Stewart showing Fox News making asses of themselves

... sorry, regarding this story in particular. That description could link to any number of Daily Show clips.

Aug 27, 2014#312

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
That's most of my feeling as well. I'm still undecided about the initial shooting until I've heard the evidence, but the police response in the days that followed indicate to me that some serious changes need to be made, and there are a lot of FPD cops who need to lose their jobs, especially higher up the chain.

We need some RICO action up in here.

Aug 27, 2014#313

Krisken

Sorry, had to change my rating to "love it".

"You're tired of hearing about it? Imagine how tired of it you would be if you were living it." Fucking spot on.

Aug 27, 2014#314

D

Dubyamn

sixpackshaker said:
That is nothing like what you accuse the officer of doing.

Yes amazing how a third hand account told by the friend of the shooters girlfriend shows how perfectly justified the shooter was.

Honestly she has no more first hand knowledge of the situation than we do.

There is no way in hell those wounds were made when the victim had his hands over his head.[DOUBLEPOST=1409164570,1409164538][/DOUBLEPOST]Also you have very little understanding how guns work.

Have any experts who have said that there is no way that Brown had his hand when he got shot? Would love to see what an actual expert has to say about Brown's wounds.

Aug 27, 2014#315

sixpackshaker

Dubyamn said:
Yes amazing how a third hand account told by the friend of the shooters girlfriend shows how perfectly justified the shooter was.

Honestly she has no more first hand knowledge of the situation than we do.

Have any experts who have said that there is no way that Brown had his hand when he got shot? Would love to see what an actual expert has to say about Brown's wounds.

hold you hands over your head, and tell me how somebody standing in front of you can shoot the front of your arms.[DOUBLEPOST=1409191660,1409191617][/DOUBLEPOST]

The "eye" witness was involved in the attack on the officer.

Aug 27, 2014#316

SpecialKO

sixpackshaker said:
hold you hands over your head, and tell me how somebody standing in front of you can shoot the front of your arms.

...that seems very, very easy to do. Am I missing something?

Aug 27, 2014#317

sixpackshaker

SpecialKO said:
...that seems very, very easy to do. Am I missing something?

No, it would mean that the officer had to be behind him to hit the front of his arms, if they were over his head.

Aug 27, 2014#318

SpecialKO

Image of entry wounds as described by Dr. Baden and Prof. Parcells.

It's not conclusive as to what happened by itself, of course, but it seems very easy to envision that being shot with his hands up could be a possible outcome.[DOUBLEPOST=1409192739,1409192540][/DOUBLEPOST]Image of people with their hands up.

Sorry, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. It seems perfectly possible, purely from the reported location of the wounds, that someone could have been shot like that from the front with their hands up.

Aug 27, 2014#319

D

Dubyamn

sixpackshaker said:
hold you hands over your head, and tell me how somebody standing in front of you can shoot the front of your arms.

Odd how in all of the other ass covering the police have done they haven't seized on this. You have any quotes from experts with actual knowledge in the field saying that you can't get hit in the bicep and forearms with your hands up?

The "eye" witness was involved in the attack on the officer.

Amazing how they let him go right after the shooting then. And still haven't charged him with anything. Giving him the same benefit of the doubt the officer is getting I guess.

Aug 27, 2014#320

Hailey Knight

Ferguson PD says they do not have records of journalists having been arrested.

Oops?

Aug 27, 2014#321

sixpackshaker

Those wounds still look to fit the leaks out of the PD than the accomplice's version of the events.

Aug 27, 2014#322

D

Dubyamn

sixpackshaker said:
Those wounds still look to fit the leaks out of the PD than the accomplice's version of the events.

How exactly?

Aug 28, 2014#323

DarkAudit

Zero Esc said:
Ferguson PD says they do not have records of journalists having been arrested.

Oops?

Sort of like how Al Jazeera debunked the FPD chief's live press conference in mid sentence. The moment he claimed no journalists were gassed, they put up a split screen of their crew being gassed and their equipment being dismantled by the FPD.

The truth will eventually come out (I hope), but the FPD has no credibility left.

Aug 28, 2014#324

Necronic

Zero Esc said:
Jon Stewart showing Fox News making asses of themselves

... sorry, regarding this story in particular. That description could link to any number of Daily Show clips.

I know we have a fair number of republicans here, and I don't want to include you in this statement, because I don't think it applies to you.

But your party is racist. I'm not saying all your members are. I'm not saying you are. But your party is. Your spokespeople are. I just don't see any other conclusion after this (and frankly so many other issues), especially in the context of the Bundy standoff. The complete ignorance of white privilege that I saw in that video is just appalling.

Aug 28, 2014#325

Tiger Tsang

Necronic said:
I know we have a fair number of republicans here, and I don't want to include you in this statement, because I don't think it applies to you.

But your party is racist. I'm not saying all your members are. I'm not saying you are. But your party is. Your spokespeople are. I just don't see any other conclusion after this (and frankly so many other issues), especially in the context of the Bundy standoff. The complete ignorance of white privilege that I saw in that video is just appalling.

Nixon's Southern Strategy is alive and well.

This seems appropriate.

Aug 28, 2014#326

Hailey Knight

Tiger Tsang said:
Nixon's Southern Strategy is alive and well.

This seems appropriate.

I love the little Fox watermark in the lower right corner.

Aug 28, 2014#327

Dei

Is it time for Avenue Q again?

Aug 28, 2014#328

Hailey Knight

I'm only racist against people from New Jersey.

It's okay, my best friend is from Jersey.

(This post is a joke, but she actually is from Jersey.)

Aug 28, 2014#329

Covar

Zero Esc said:
I'm only racist against people from New Jersey.

That's because they're all a bunch of mobsters. In totally unrelated information, I've been watching the Sopranos, and it's a great show.

Aug 29, 2014#330

Necronic

stienman said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/opinion/nicholas-kristof-is-everyone-a-little-bit-racist.html?_r=0

I mean that's totally true. We are all racist. And those of us who are white will always have to accept the existence of white privilege. But that's exactly the problem with the republican info-tainment machine. They don't think it exists at all. Where lots of us reflect on the fact that race is an issue and struggle with it on a daily basis through introspection and self-awareness the republican info-tainment method is to plug their ears and go "na-na-na-na its not real!"

That's what differentiates the ubiquitous racism that exists in all of us as outlined in that article, and the actual racism that existed in that John Stewart video. That's one of the things wrong with the republican party.

That said I just heard a great interview with Paul Ryan this morning and I may be a fan.

Aug 29, 2014#331

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
a great interview with Paul Ryan this morning and I may be a fan.

either you're A) talking about a different Paul Ryan B) he gave an interview where he said the exact opposite of everything he's tried to actually pass and push legislatively or C) you're a gigantic piece of shit. I'm pretty sure it's not C. That little stain of humanity should be treated with the same respect as the Westboro Church.

ANYWAYS

if you want to read about how shitty police and our "justice" system is, here's some light reading

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a29775/cecily-mcmillan-grad-school-to-jail/

I didn't cry my first night in jail.

By the time I got through the 12 hours of intake — the lines, the fingerprints, the strip search — it was 4 a.m. In a dorm with 50 women, I lay on a cot smaller than a twin bed, with a mattress so thin, I could feel the cold metal beneath my back.

I didn't feel much of anything emotionally, except a vague sense of resolution. At least I knew my fate now. I was a convicted felon.

I had spent two years awaiting a trial, accused of assaulting a policeman at an Occupy Wall Street protest in New York City in March 2012. As I remember it, the officer surprised me from behind, grabbing my right breast so forcefully, he lifted me off the ground. In that moment, my elbow met his face.

At the time, I was a graduate student at The New School for Social Research and volunteering as a union organizer, in fact helping police negotiate contracts. I was studying nonviolent movements and had been inspired by pacifists like Bayard Rustin, the activist who helped Martin Luther King Jr. My arrest was the opposite of everything I stood for.

I remember someone pushing me to the ground, my face hitting a grate. Next thing I knew, I was strapped to a gurney, my skirt up above my hips. I had bruises across my body and a handprint on my chest. Officers were joking about my "Ocupussy." I learned later that I had been beaten on the head, triggering a seizure. Videos posted online showed people shouting "Help her!" amid the seizure while the cops stood by. The first time I saw those videos, I watched in horror — I couldn't believe that I was the person going through that ordeal.

At the trial, I sat trying to appear calm as I got ripped apart. Prosecutors said I had inflicted the injuries on myself. They said I hadn't immediately mentioned being grabbed — but I was completely disoriented after the seizure. The judge didn't allow evidence that my attorney wanted to show the jury, including a range of videos of the incident. I was found guilty and sent to Rikers Island to await my sentence. My lawyer Marty Stolar, a human-rights expert and watchdog for Occupy who had taken my case for free, was so shocked at the verdict that he was visibly shaken.
...
That feeling didn't last long. On my third or fourth night, I sobbed, my face buried in the frayed blanket. I couldn't let anyone hear. Crying at night makes the correction officers, or COs, slam on the lights and shout, then everyone is awake and furious. But something funny happened that night too. A woman started singing softly, "Wimoweh, wimoweh." Others joined in: "In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps tonight." Women in their teens, in their 80s, were singing that song. It felt like a warped summer camp. I realized, we're all in this together.
...
Being polite will also get you in trouble. I learned that during a battle to get my medication for ADHD. Everything in prison is about waiting and obstruction. You spend hours waiting in lines — for a mail pass, for the phone — only to be denied for some arbitrary reason. I knew that without my meds, the upheaval in my life would spark an anxiety attack, which could be mistaken for a tantrum, getting me sent to solitary. Thanks to friends who raised a ruckus with public officials, I got the medication. But when I was meeting with the pharmacist, I couldn't hear him, because a CO was shouting in the hall. I called out, "Sir, I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble hearing."

Mistake. "Are you telling me to shut up?" he yelled, launching into a tirade. Later, when I stood up to leave, I apologized. He barked, "You white bitch, I told you to shut the fuck up!" My eyes went to his badge. "You want to see my badge?" he yelled. He rammed it into me, sending me flying backward. You are supposed to be able to report grievances, but I never said anything. I was afraid of retaliation.
...
That's not to say the indignities weren't rampant. People often ask if jail is like Orange Is the New Black, but I see nothing similar in incarceration and entertainment. Every day in jail, you are belittled and berated. There's no library, no computers or cell phones. A TV blasts Criminal Minds. I went through a surreal fight for weeks just to get a pair of sneakers so I could run around the yard.

Before and after seeing visitors, you have to strip naked and squat to prove you aren't hiding contraband. And on random nights, guards burst into the dorm in full riot gear. You line up while 50 women are strip-searched and X-rayed in a special chair. Next, you return to your bed and hold up the mattress while the officers dump out the two blue buckets where you keep personal items, confiscating whatever they feel like. It looks like a tornado hit the room.
...
For me, the medical situation was a nightmare. When I tried to get my birth-control shot, I was told I had to get a Pap smear. I was warned the examiner might be "handsy." I was told I might have cervical cancer. I did not. I lost a friend called Jack, who died after coughing up blood for days. She should have been in the infirmary ... better yet, a hospital.

Over the weeks, I recognized how strong these women were to survive in such an oppressive place. You get a sense of how common the female experience is. Every woman I met had been sexually assaulted. And they were all on the phone every day, running families from behind bars, reminding husbands and children to pay bills. I learned about myself too. As a student, I was always busy theorizing about society, but in Rikers, I was part of a society. I listened and made friends and became more in touch with myself and other people.

My release came after 58 days. I lost 17 pounds. Now I'm on probation for five years. As a felon, I can't vote for the next seven years. My lawyer is appealing my conviction.

Even being set free became a trial. On the day of my release, my friends on the outside had helped me set up a press conference across the Rikers Island bridge, to speak for the women in jail. But a CO told me he had been ordered to drive me to a subway station 45 minutes away. I protested but no one would help, so that's where I ended up.

I borrowed a stranger's phone to call my friends, who brought me back to the bridge. I gave my press conference, describing how the women were treated. These women had sustained me, becoming my friends, my confidantes and advocates. And now I am their advocate. I walked into Rikers Island as part of one movement and left as part of another.

Aug 29, 2014#332

Espy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
either you're A) talking about a different Paul Ryan B) he gave an interview where he said the exact opposite of everything he's tried to actually pass and push legislatively or C) you're a gigantic piece of shit. I'm pretty sure it's not C. That little stain of humanity should be treated with the same respect as the Westboro Church.

I heard a speech on NPR awhile back, and I came a little late to it so I didn't know who it was talking but I was like, damn, this guy is a conservative/Republican but he's talking about social issues and reaching across the aisle in a way that impresses me, he must be really hated by everyone in his party.

It turned out to be Jeb Bush.

And then I remembered that oh yeah, politicians will say all kinds of crazy shit that sounds good but then has zero impact on what they actually do.

Aug 29, 2014#333

sixpackshaker

But remember he's the Bush with the little brown babies.

Aug 29, 2014#334

Timmus

The Bush family will never satisfy its lust for the White House?

Aug 29, 2014#335

GasBandit

Timmus said:
The Bush family will never satisfy its lust for the White House?

We apologize for the Obama interruption, we now return your nation to its regularly scheduled Bush/Clinton dynasty wars.

Aug 29, 2014#336

Timmus

GasBandit said:
We apologize for the Obama interruption, we now return your nation to its regularly scheduled Bush/Clinton dynasty wars.

No shit, eh?

Aug 29, 2014#337

Necronic

What impressed me in the interview was that it was the first time I heard a major republican (especially with Tea Party roots) say "you know, maybe we shouldn't be crapping all over the poor all the time, I think it may be hurting our electability". Its smart, which is something I don't see in a lot of politicians these days. This is, of course, not saying that he actually means it or that he will follow through with anything, but its really interesting to see a republican with that big of a name breaking ranks. If nothing else I give him credit for having the stones to put himself out there with a statement that is going to be roundly criticized by the Tea Party and its PACs. This was the jist of the interview iirc:

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/29/343434942/rep-ryan-calls-for-culture-of-inclusion-to-tackle-poverty

Anyways. Would I vote for him based on this? Of course not, its not nearly enough. But Christ Christie (pre-pratfall) really made me hungry for a moderate republican candidate, and to see a one-time Tea Party no-goodnick say something like this makes me hopeful that we may see one. Maybe not in him, but maybe in others?

John Huntsman 2016?

Aug 29, 2014#338

GasBandit

Necronic said:
John Huntsman 2016?

Maybe, but only if Huntsman flips a couple of his stances, such as his support of Cap and Trade legislation, and his support for obamacare/stance that health care is a right.

Even if he does all that though, I'll still be voting Libertarian, as always. I'll be futilely putting my dissent on record at every stage of the ship sinking so long as the charade continues in our duopoly.

Aug 29, 2014#339

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
We apologize for the Obama interruption, we now return your nation to its regularly scheduled Bush/Clinton dynasty wars.

I really don't see Chelsea running any time soon. She's actually done a pretty good job of staying out of the lime light. Jeb will, because he's already made it clear he wants to.

Aug 29, 2014#340

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
I really don't see Chelsea running any time soon. She's actually done a pretty good job of staying out of the lime light. Jeb will, because he's already made it clear he wants to.

Hillary this time, Jeb next time, and that gives Chelsea 16 years to prepare for her coronation.

Aug 29, 2014#341

SpecialKO

This is why I hope that Ben Carson (or Huntsman or whomever) and some Democrat-not-Hillary (I'm not impressed by the current field) end up as the nominees on their respective tickets. It won't change much, and I don't even dislike Hillary at all, but I despise the idea of political dynasties playing hopscotch with the Presidency. The more Presidents in the immediate future not named Bush or Clinton, the better.

Aug 29, 2014#342

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
Hillary this time, Jeb next time, and that gives Chelsea 16 years to prepare for her coronation.

I don't see Jeb beating Hillary and I ESPECIALLY don't see him beating an incumbent Hillary. That's 8 years for the Republican Party to get it's ducks in a row and MAKE an electable candidate instead of just relying on the Bush name... because frankly, that is all Jeb has.

2024 is going to be an interesting year in American politics because it's going to be first election we see "new wave" presidents. It's also going to be around the point (I'm thinking 2022) where Gen Xers start getting seats in Congress because the Boomers aren't going to be strong enough as candidates anymore. You're going to see a pretty big swing in politics around that time... almost as big as the one we're going to get in the 2040's when millenials start hitting the political scene.

Aug 29, 2014#343

Bowielee

If Jeb Bush is ever elected president, I'm fleeing the country.

Aug 29, 2014#344

SpecialKO

Bowielee said:
If Jeb Bush is ever elected president, I'm fleeing the country.

Hey now, the worst he could do is turn the whole country into Florida.

Aug 29, 2014#345

jwhouk

I'd be more worried about a certain governor turning the entire US into Wisconsin.

Aug 29, 2014#346

GasBandit

Could do worse than turning the entire US into New Mexico.

Aug 29, 2014#347

Bowielee

Let's lighten the mood, shall we?

Aug 30, 2014#348

GasBandit

Well, the dog WAS black...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...rable-black-lab-named-arfee-article-1.1862334

Aug 30, 2014#349

Tress

What an asshole. I hope that officer is fired. I don't care how distraught he claims to be.

Aug 30, 2014#350

PatrThom

Isn't it becoming standard policy to kill all dogs present in order to remove their influence?

I am asking this as a serious question...whether dogs are considered "threats" and therefore SOP would roll this into the neutralization of any such "unpredictable" threat prior to engaging the situation.

--Patrick

Aug 30, 2014#351

Terrik

Tress said:
What an asshole. I hope that officer is fired. I don't care how distraught he claims to be.

Shot through a windshield? Charge em with animal abuse too.

Aug 30, 2014#352

sixpackshaker

I can not see shooting a Lab. Hell I had my German Shepherd pop his head out of my truck and lick a State Trooper in the face. I told the trooper, "If you were a County Mountie, he would have bit you."

Aug 30, 2014#353

Bowielee

PatrThom said:
Isn't it becoming standard policy to kill all dogs present in order to remove their influence?

I am asking this as a serious question...whether dogs are considered "threats" and therefore SOP would roll this into the neutralization of any such "unpredictable" threat prior to engaging the situation.

--Patrick

I really hope you're joking.

Aug 30, 2014#354

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
I really hope you're joking.

Considering the number of times I hear about this sort of thing happening, I wish I were.
I mean, there's officially no ticket quota, right? Does this extend to other policies as well?

--Patrick

Aug 31, 2014#355

Charlie Don't Surf

I haven't ever brought it up in here because I uh, think human lives are way more valuable than a dog's life, but the police kill an absolutely staggering number of dogs. They are absolutely indiscriminate and shoot any dog they can point a gun at in every single situation humanly possible. Dogs in carriers, tied up, loose that don't belong to any suspect, dogs on leashes yards away from the situation. If there's a dog anywhere in sight or sound of a police officer, they will shoot it a dozen times as fast as humanly possible. If you have a dog, pray that you never encounter a police officer, since there are very few times a police officer sees a dog that he doesn't empty a clip into it. If this turns your opinion against the police canine murder squad, then welcome to the club.

I'm exaggerating above, but not by much.

Aug 31, 2014#356

Hailey Knight

The cause is the same aggression factor.

Of course, unlike with killing minorities, an officer can lose their job for killing a dog.

That said, if there's a drug raid on your home, even if it's the wrong house (which seems to happen more often nowadays--probably just an increase in number of drug raids, which will increase the error percentage) and you have a dog, they're probably going to shoot it on sight. They bust in, they don't know if it's dangerous, they shoot. Oh, and your babies. Make sure to have flash grenade protection on the crib or your baby's gonna die. And make sure your insurance covers doors, because the police aren't going to pay for it after their "oops". A guy in my town had the police break down his door in the night and beat him on a drug raid--wrong house. It happened three times. He had to pay to have his door fixed each time, and his own medical bills. When he sued after the third time, then they arrested him. Don't know what ever came of that. And to get back on topic, take a guess what his ethnicity was.

Aug 31, 2014#357

Terrik

Zero Esc said:
The cause is the same aggression factor.

Of course, unlike with killing minorities, an officer can lose their job for killing a dog.

That said, if there's a drug raid on your home, even if it's the wrong house (which seems to happen more often nowadays--probably just an increase in number of drug raids, which will increase the error percentage) and you have a dog, they're probably going to shoot it on sight. They bust in, they don't know if it's dangerous, they shoot. Oh, and your babies. Make sure to have flash grenade protection on the crib or your baby's gonna die. And make sure your insurance covers doors, because the police aren't going to pay for it after their "oops". A guy in my town had the police break down his door in the night and beat him on a drug raid--wrong house. It happened three times. He had to pay to have his door fixed each time, and his own medical bills. When he sued after the third time, then they arrested him. Don't know what ever came of that. And to get back on topic, take a guess what his ethnicity was.

Wasn't the constitution supposed to prevent shit like that?

Aug 31, 2014#358

Hailey Knight

Terrik said:
Wasn't the constitution supposed to prevent shit like that?

War on Drugs.

Which is so prevalent that people can prank each other online by calling in drug raids if they have a person's address. It's happened twice to some Let's Play guy; can't recall his name.

Aug 31, 2014#359

Hailey Knight

Here's a thing: if the police violate your rights, do something wrong to you, etc., don't sue the precinct. Sue the town/city.

Aug 31, 2014#360

Bowielee

Zero Esc said:
The cause is the same aggression factor.

Of course, unlike with killing minorities, an officer can lose their job for killing a dog.

That said, if there's a drug raid on your home, even if it's the wrong house (which seems to happen more often nowadays--probably just an increase in number of drug raids, which will increase the error percentage) and you have a dog, they're probably going to shoot it on sight. They bust in, they don't know if it's dangerous, they shoot. Oh, and your babies. Make sure to have flash grenade protection on the crib or your baby's gonna die. And make sure your insurance covers doors, because the police aren't going to pay for it after their "oops". A guy in my town had the police break down his door in the night and beat him on a drug raid--wrong house. It happened three times. He had to pay to have his door fixed each time, and his own medical bills. When he sued after the third time, then they arrested him. Don't know what ever came of that. And to get back on topic, take a guess what his ethnicity was.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-apologies-to-cops-who-beat-me-up-no-reason/

Aug 31, 2014#361

Hailey Knight

Bowielee said:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-apologies-to-cops-who-beat-me-up-no-reason/

Why the hell wouldn't the police identify themselves at the door? I'm pretty sure that's standard procedure.

I wonder if they ever helped the woman who was afraid for her life whose house they didn't show up at for the time they were at the article writer's.

Aug 31, 2014#362

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
Why the hell wouldn't the police identify themselves at the door?

They are not required to do so with so-called "no-knock" warrants.

--Patrick

Aug 31, 2014#363

Tress

PatrThom said:
They are not required to do so with so-called "no-knock" warrants.

--Patrick

This was a response to a domestic violence call, so that doesn't apply.

Aug 31, 2014#364

PatrThom

Tress said:
This was a response to a domestic violence call, so that doesn't apply.

Exactly!

--Patrick

Aug 31, 2014#365

Charlie Don't Surf

pretend I quoted all of Zero Esc's above posts and said "agree"

Sep 8, 2014#366

fade

Some quick math (I love math).

1.1 million full time police in the us: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#Number_of_police

The official police homicide number is about 400/yr, but there's evidence it's more than that: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-the-police-kill-each-year/ as an example that gathers some research together. Let's say that there are 800 police homicide/yr, which is probably way more than there are. That's a safety margin of 2, and given that there are ~17k homicides in the US/year, that's saying the police are responsible for 5% of them, which seems quite high.

By the official numbers,

100 * 400/1,100,000 = 0.035% of police officers engage in fatal killings, all other things being equal

By the safety margin of 2

100 * 800/1,100,000 = 0.07% of police officers engage in fatal killings all other things being equal.
or 7 out of every 10,000 cops will kill.

I cannot find any numbers easily on killings that are unquestionably justified (i.e. officer's life is in clear, immediate danger). Would be interesting.

100 * 17k/313.9M = 0.005% of people in the us kill, or 5 out of every 100,000 people.

Looks like roughly 150 officers are killed in the line of duty each year, or

100 * 150/1,100,000 = 0.01%, or 1 in every 10,000 police officers will die in the line of duty.

In 2011, there were 4,609 work related deaths in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality

100 * 4609/313,900,000 = 0.001%, or 1 in every 100,000 people will die in a work related fatality.

To sum up this gross overgeneralization:

A cop is 7-14X more likely to kill than the average american.
A cop is 10X more likely to die on the job than the average american.

None of this is presented with judgement. I was genuinely curious.

Sep 8, 2014#367

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't mean to poo poo your work, but there is nothing anywhere near approaching credible data on cops killing people on the job, because every single entity in power does everything in that power to make it impossible for anyone to find out the answer. Here's another link: http://gawker.com/what-ive-learned-from-two-years-collecting-data-on-poli-1625472836

also the 538 article linked is real good too

Sep 8, 2014#368

fade

That's why I gave a safety factor of 2. I'm disinclined to believe the police are responsible for greater than 5% of the homicides in this country. There's only so much suppression you can get away with, and I think that assuming the police only report half of the officer-involved shootings is an extremely low estimate. You could argue an under-reporting of homicides, but again, I took that into account. The official numbers are in the 15k range, and 3rd party estimates are in the 18k range. I split the difference, and as a safety margin pushed toward the 18k end.

Sep 8, 2014#369

Necronic

Looking at that wiki page. wtf is going on in fisheries?? Those fatality rates are truly shocking.

ed: Ah ok, we're including the "deadliest catch" stuff. Wonder what the numbers look like if you separate the onshore fisheries from offshore fishing.

Sep 8, 2014#370

Dave

Not saying this is true or credible...

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_14a3e5f8-6c6a-5deb-92fe-87fcee622c29.html

Two witnesses say Brown had his hands up.

Sep 8, 2014#371

Charlie Don't Surf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ow-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

Sep 11, 2014#372

evilmike

Demonstrators in the St Louis area tried to shut down I-70 to protest the Governor's refusal to appoint a special prosecutor in the Michael Brown shooting case. So far, the Governor has stood behind the local prosecutor who has ties to the police community. (via The Washington Post)

Police were able to keep the demonstrators from shutting down I-70, though this did result in a fairly striking image:

(via Fox2Now)

Sep 11, 2014#373

Gruebeard

So the cops block roads to keep protesters from blocking a road. Clever strategy.

Sep 11, 2014#374

Sparhawk

Looks like about half the people in the cordon area are reporters and cameramen.

Sep 12, 2014#375

PatrThom

Sparhawk said:
Looks like about half the people in the cordon area are reporters and cameramen.

NEWS!

--Patrick

Sep 21, 2014#376

ScytheRexx

Haha this made me laugh so much.

Sep 25, 2014#377

Hailey Knight

Since it's probably relevant, what the fuck? (Warning, guy gets shot.)

Sep 25, 2014#378

Ravenpoe

Zero Esc said:
Since it's probably relevant, what the fuck? (Warning, guy gets shot.)

For those worried, he's going to be ok.

I'm of two minds about this. The only mistake this guy made was he got out of the car. Clearly that's no reason to shoot somebody. But at the same time, I can see how, from the cops perspective, his actions could maybe be perceived as threatening.

I feel bad for both people involved. For the driver for getting shot (the cynic in me wants to say shot for being black, but I don't think there's enough evidence to claim race was a factor) and for the cop whose career is most likely ruined (possibly rightfully so, I don't know him) for being too jumpy and quick to fire.

That the victim is going to be ok makes this easier not to rage about, though I still hope he sues the shit out of the department.

Sep 25, 2014#379

Hailey Knight

They told him to get his license--what was he supposed to do? Don't get it, he's non-compliant, but then he goes to get it and they shoot. Not to mention, he's out of the car, and they yell to get out of the car. It's just bizarre.

Sep 25, 2014#380

evilmike

Ravenpoe said:
The only mistake this guy made was he got out of the car.

It looks like he got out of his car because he was going to the store when the cop pulled up to him.

Ravenpoe said:
I feel bad for both people involved. For the driver for getting shot (the cynic in me wants to say shot for being black, but I don't think there's enough evidence to claim race was a factor) and for the cop whose career is most likely ruined (possibly rightfully so, I don't know him) for being too jumpy and quick to fire.

Not only is the cop out of a job, he's been charged with "assault and battery of a high and aggravated nature". (via CBS News) Keep in mind that this police officer used lethal force on a man who was trying to comply with the officer's instructions and again when the man was backing away with his arms raised -- all because the police officer suspected him of not wearing a seat belt.

Sep 26, 2014#381

Ravenpoe

evilmike said:
It looks like he got out of his car because he was going to the store when the cop pulled up to him.

Not only is the cop out of a job, he's been charged with "assault and battery of a high and aggravated nature". (via CBS News) Keep in mind that this police officer used lethal force on a man who was trying to comply with the officer's instructions and again when the man was backing away with his arms raised -- all because the police officer suspected him of not wearing a seat belt.

The officer claimed he shot because he thought the victim was diving back into the car. Which is still fucked up and a totally wrong reaction (he didn't look like he was 'diving' to me) but I can see how possibly it could be construed that way. The officer is completely at fault here, I don't doubt that, I just don't think he had malicious intent. That doesn't lessen the fact that he shot at an unarmed man, I'm just saying I can conceivably see how that mistake is made, especially if you go into a situation assuming you're going to get shot at, which unfortunately a lot of officers do.

So maybe I should have communicated that better. I think the officer did a bad thing (that could have turned out a whole lot worse, thankfully it didn't) but I don't necessarily think he had intention to do a bad thing. He still did the bad thing though, and at the very least probably shouldn't be in a position where he holds the authority to draw a weapon and fire it at someone for going for their license.

So yeah, pretty fucked up situation.

Sep 26, 2014#382

chris

What made the officer think this man wasn't wearing his seatbelt ?

Sep 26, 2014#383

Charlie Don't Surf

I can't believe people that are like "I feel for the officer", poor him, he didn't get FUCKING SHOT.

Sep 26, 2014#384

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I can't believe people that are like "I feel for the officer", poor him, he didn't get FUCKING SHOT.

I agree. In the interests of fairness and justice I propose that the police officer in question should also be shot. /LeQuack

Sep 26, 2014#385

Terrik

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I can't believe people that are like "I feel for the officer", poor him, he didn't get FUCKING SHOT.

I actually agree with Charlie in this case. What the hell was that guy supposed to do? He got shot for following the officer's directions and all over a seatbelt violation. Throw the entire book of the law at this guy.

Sep 26, 2014#386

Charlie Don't Surf

although ironically, I don't want the cop to get the death penalty at all

Sep 26, 2014#387

Hailey Knight

chris said:
What made the officer think this man wasn't wearing his seatbelt ?

Well, he was standing outside his car in the video, so it didn't look like he had his seat belt on to me.

Open and shut case, ain't it?

Sep 26, 2014#388

Dave

ThatGrinningIdiot! said:
I agree. In the interests of fairness and justice I propose that the police officer in question should also be shot. /LeQuack

TIL @ThatGrinningIdiot is, in fact, LeQuack!

Sep 26, 2014#389

fade

You can never not feel for the cop. The day that happens, you're part of the problem, too.

Sep 26, 2014#390

Bowielee

I don't feel for the cop other than what I would feel for any human being who screwed up their own life. But man, he deserves everything he gets.

Sep 26, 2014#391

fade

That's all I mean. But sometimes people forget that they're human, too. Oftentimes the same people who want us to remember that the guy sticking a gun in a clerk's face is a human.

Sep 26, 2014#392

ScytheRexx

The issue is that most officers are trained to go into nearly every situation assuming the person they are talking with, not matter how small a stop (especially if he is black/minority), is just a slight move away from turning into a hail of bullets or sudden stabbings. It reminds me of this old hilarious police training video. I wouldn't be surprised if the thought process of the cop in the video was that the black man was five seconds away from doing exactly what that Canadian redneck did in the first few moments of this video. Also, watch out for Asians, we all know they charge at you with baseball bats / machetes when you tell them they have a tail light out.

Listen, there is no reason a cop can't be careful, but that man above didn't even get a chance to turn around before the cop started wailing at him with deadly bullets. There has to be some measure of restrain unless the situation you are walking into you know up front is an ugly one (spousal abuse, hostage situation, etc.)

Sep 26, 2014#393

GasBandit

(Screaming machete asian)

"This represents imminent danger for sure."

:rofl:

Sep 26, 2014#394

Eriol

Once again, we need a big fat "WTF???" tag. Where the hell did that video come from???

Sep 26, 2014#395

chris

I wonder how much training a potential police officer normally gets ?

Sep 26, 2014#396

Bowielee

ScytheRexx said:
The issue is that most officers are trained to go into nearly every situation assuming the person they are talking with, not matter how small a stop (especially if he is black/minority), is just a slight move away from turning into a hail of bullets or sudden stabbings. It reminds me of this old hilarious police training video. I wouldn't be surprised if the thought process of the cop in the video was that the black man was five seconds away from doing exactly what that Canadian redneck did in the first few moments of this video. Also, watch out for Asians, we all know they charge at you with baseball bats / machetes when you tell them they have a tail light out.

Listen, there is no reason a cop can't be careful, but that man above didn't even get a chance to turn around before the cop started wailing at him with deadly bullets. There has to be some measure of restrain unless the situation you are walking into you know up front is an ugly one (spousal abuse, hostage situation, etc.)

BE MORE CANADIAN!

Sep 26, 2014#397

sixpackshaker

chris said:
I wonder how much training a potential police officer normally gets ?

3 to 6 months of an academy, on top of an associate's or bachelor's degree in law enforcement.[DOUBLEPOST=1411743819,1411743708][/DOUBLEPOST]You don't go back into the car with out telling the cop exactly what you are going to do. The cop should have taken another second to be sure when the kid came back out of the car, that he did not have a gun.

Sep 26, 2014#398

Ravenpoe

Terrik said:
I actually agree with Charlie in this case. What the hell was that guy supposed to do? He got shot for following the officer's directions and all over a seatbelt violation. Throw the entire book of the law at this guy.

I agree with throw the book at him. I said as much. Doesn't mean I can't still feel empathy for him.

Sep 26, 2014#399

Dave

sixpackshaker said:
You don't go back into the car with out telling the cop exactly what you are going to do. The cop should have taken another second to be sure when the kid came back out of the car, that he did not have a gun.

False. He's a young black man with a fairly nice car. That means it's stolen and he's a criminal thug. And he "aggressively lunged" back into the car, so he was obviously going for a gun to "pop a cap in a pig's ass". So he deserved to be shot at four times but only hit once. /s

Yeah...This whole thing is just stupid. The guy was getting out of his car to go into the convenience store when the cop asked him to get his license. Yes, the guy shoud have said, "It's in the car, I'm going to get it." but I don't think the cop would have allowed that, either. He went into the situation thinking the guy was a criminal when it was a simple seat belt violation.

And four shots at point blank range and only hitting once in the leg? I think that's fortunate for the victim, but come on! They train you to go for center mass. I know pistols are more difficult to shoot than most people think, but this guy is a trained officer and should have a better aim than that!

Sep 26, 2014#400

Ravenpoe

Dave said:
but this guy is a trained officer and should have a better aim than that!

Clearly not trained very well, if his first response is to open fire.

Sep 26, 2014#401

Bowielee

This situation is nothing like the suicide by cop guy. This police officer shot an unarmed citizen who was in no major violation.

This isn't even in contention like the stand your ground murders. This is straight up either incompetence by the cop at the least, blatant racial profiling at the worst, and this sort of thing should not be tolerated or shrugged off. Sure this cop is a human being, but he also made his own bed, so he damn well better lie in it.

BTW, I'm going to go out on a weird and controversial limb here and say that this type of behavior is exactly why Al Queda has won. You may say "come on Bowielee, that's quite a stretch", but it's not. Ever since 9/11 we've become so xenophobic and paranoid that everyone's jumping at shadows. It's like people lack any sort of rational sense about judging how dangerous another person is or isn't. We're so afraid of even each other now that people are defaulting to a mindset that everyone is carrying a gun so I should shoot first, ask questions later. It shows in how militarized the police force has become, by how extreme the gun control arguments have become (on both sides). We're running scared (and here's where I REALLY get into tinfoil hat territory), and big business and the media(which are pretty much one in the same) are milking it for all it's worth and exacerbating the problem.

Sep 26, 2014#402

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
This situation is nothing like the suicide by cop guy. This police officer shot an unarmed citizen who was in no major violation.

This isn't even in contention like the stand your ground murders. This is straight up either incompetence by the cop at the least, blatant racial profiling at the worst, and this sort of thing should not be tolerated or shrugged off. Sure this cop is a human being, but he also made his own bed, so he damn well better lie in it.

BTW, I'm going to go out on a weird and controversial limb here and say that this type of behavior is exactly why Al Queda has won. You may say "come on Bowielee, that's quite a stretch", but it's not. Ever since 9/11 we've become so xenophobic and paranoid that everyone's jumping at shadows. It's like people lack any sort of rational sense about judging how dangerous another person is or isn't. We're so afraid of even each other now that people are defaulting to a mindset that everyone is carrying a gun so I should shoot first, ask questions later. It shows in how militarized the police force has become, by how extreme the gun control arguments have become (on both sides). We're running scared (and here's where I REALLY get into tinfoil hat territory), and big business and the media(which are pretty much one in the same) are milking it for all it's worth and exacerbating the problem.

I'd agree with all that.

Sep 26, 2014#403

chris

sixpackshaker said:
3 to 6 months of an academy, on top of an associate's or bachelor's degree in law enforcement.[DOUBLEPOST=1411743819,1411743708][/DOUBLEPOST]You don't go back into the car with out telling the cop exactly what you are going to do. The cop should have taken another second to be sure when the kid came back out of the car, that he did not have a gun.

Six month sound awefully short for police training.

Sep 26, 2014#404

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I can't believe people that are like "I feel for the officer", poor him, he didn't get FUCKING SHOT.

Guilt and second-guessing yourself can scar you for life as effectively as any bullet. Ask any soldier/EMT worker/other PTSD sufferer.
It could've been avoided, sure, but it's still a tragedy on both ends.

--Patrick

Sep 26, 2014#405

Dave

chris said:
Six month sound awefully short for police training.

That's longer than training in the Marine Corps.

Sep 26, 2014#406

Covar

3x as long as the Army.

Sep 26, 2014#407

chris

It depends on the state but police training in germany take up to 36 month.

Sep 26, 2014#408

Hailey Knight

Ravenpoe said:
Clearly not trained very well, if his first response is to open fire.

This.

Sep 27, 2014#409

jwhouk

*sigh*

Sep 27, 2014#410

Mathias

Was it posted here, or did I read it somewhere else? I remember reading a nice article about why military experience is not necessarily a good trait to have for police officers. The gist of it was that military training teaches you to kill. That is your muscle memory development, whereas police training trains you to first and foremost protect. It seems a lot of former military dudes go on to be cops, which I think is ultimately a bad thing.

I can't imagine what it feels like to be a cop, though. It seems like a delightful mix of treading a fine line of cautiousness and courteousness. In the military, you follow orders and you shoot to kill. There's really no gray area. I think being a police officer entails so much more (for less recognition). What I think a lot of cops forget though is that they are public servants - just as much as every other civil job out there. This is especially true of cops that are former military with a "get some" attitude drilled into them.

The cop at the quickie mart here was 100% in the wrong, but I can kinda empathize if his training has him assume everyone is a potential threat. Honestly, how many stories are there where a good cop was murdered at a routine traffic stop. What a shitty way to go. If you think about that video, it is conceivable that if that pulled a gun, the cop would have been dead (unless of course, he was as shitty a shot as the cop). Cop should have hung back at his squad car, but then again, he wasn't acting with intent to serve the public. He was indeed racially profiling that man to begin with.[DOUBLEPOST=1411823309,1411823261][/DOUBLEPOST]

Dave said:
That's longer than training in the Marine Corps.

See above for why police training should probably be longer than military.

Sep 27, 2014#411

Hailey Knight

And that's part of it; I know some people don't want to go for the race thing, but there's a reason I posted it in this particular thread. If it had been my stepdad, for example, a middle class blue collar white guy who routinely forgets to put his seatbelt on, no shots would've been fired. He would've been ticketed and we'd have never heard about it.

Sep 27, 2014#412

Charlie Don't Surf

This is a minor thing, but what if instead of changing the "guilty" party's race to white in the example, it's "what if the cop WASN'T racist?"

Sep 27, 2014#413

Ravenpoe

Since this video came out, I've seen some discussion in places on 'how to act around police,' with advice such as "don't make quick, sudden movements, don't reach into your pocket without declaring your actions," etc etc. These are all things I've heard before, and things I do in the times I have to deal with police, like traffic stops, but I suddenly had a realization that made me kinda sad. That this advice is considered common knowledge suggests that the population as a whole should fear police, basically treating them as if they're this:

Sep 27, 2014#414

Charlie Don't Surf

Well, yeah. You should be scared of the police, because they can ruin your life in so many ways and end your life with zero repercussions thanks to the blue shield. Darren Wilson is still free after everything that happened with and in Ferguson.

Sep 27, 2014#415

GasBandit

I've always heard it called the Blue Wall. Blue Shield is a health insurance provider.

Sep 27, 2014#416

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
I've always heard it called the Blue Wall. Blue Shield is a health insurance provider.

I must be mixing up my huge, evil entities that are fuckin' everyone up

Sep 27, 2014#417

Ravenpoe

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I must be mixing up my huge, evil entities that are fuckin' everyone up

Sep 27, 2014#418

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
This is a minor thing, but what if instead of changing the "guilty" party's race to white in the example, it's "what if the cop WASN'T racist?"

Changing the race as an example is to point out the racism; saying there shouldn't be racism is a goal/ideal, but not an example.

Sep 28, 2014#419

DarkAudit

One thing that has been gnawing at me. Why is the officer's first reaction on a frelling SEAT BELT VIOLATION to go for his gun? Not to mention, the whole incident happened on private property. What jurisdiction would he have even had to make a stop? Do you ticket someone when they haven't yet pulled out of their driveway? Is a convenience store parking lot much different?

Sep 28, 2014#420

Hailey Knight

DarkAudit said:
One thing that has been gnawing at me. Why is the officer's first reaction on a frelling SEAT BELT VIOLATION to go for his gun? Not to mention, the whole incident happened on private property. What jurisdiction would he have even had to make a stop? Do you ticket someone when they haven't yet pulled out of their driveway? Is a convenience store parking lot much different?

Which is why I think he was poorly trained--not just for bad aim, but for everything leading up to it.

Sep 28, 2014#421

jwhouk

I have one possible reply, and I hope the guy was drug-tested after the shooting:

He (the officer) had OD'ed on caffeine or other (possibly illegal) stimulants.

Sep 28, 2014#422

Hailey Knight

I kind of doubt that, but even if it was the case, I don't expect he was drug tested.

If the dash cam hadn't caught this, I can only imagine what story would've been concocted.

Sep 28, 2014#423

Hailey Knight

stienman said:
Having not watched the video, I can't speak to this specific situation.

A surprising number of people with warrants for their arrest are found through normal traffic stops. Thus a number of seemingly simple violations can result in more than a ticket, and officers have been killed during such minor stops because the driver did not want his license run through the system.

So all officers treat every stop, no matter how minor, with a high degree of alert.

As far as private property, I've pulled into a property then had an officer pull in and then ticket me for a violation they observed minutes prior.

Again, I haven't watched the video so I don't know if any of this applies to this case.

Watching the video might help you discuss the video

. The private property thing is null to this situation; if there was a seatbelt violation, it would've been observed before the guy got out of his car, so likely it was spotted earlier and off the property, if it happened. Like you said, an off-property violation can be pursued onto property. Getting onto private property isn't like crossing the border.

As for high alert, if the officer was concerned for his safety to that degree, his instruction could've been "hands behind your head" or "hands on the vehicle". Or maybe even give himself a minute to figure out what he wanted the guy to do to cause the least amount of danger to the officer. Not, "show me your stuff" and then when the guy reaches for the stuff, not shout "out of the vehicle" while the guy's already out, and then not firing before the guy has a chance to figure out which contradictory instructions to follow, and then not continuing to fire while the guy's hands are raised over his head of his own volition.

Not to mention, usually with traffic stops, the other driver is still in their seat while the officer is outside the window. A normal traffic stop puts an officer in far more danger than this officer was, back at his vehicle.

The officer's orders and actions are a fucking mess. Does anyone know how long this guy has been on the force?

Oct 3, 2014#424

Charlie Don't Surf

just another outlier, one bad apple

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/jon-burge-ex-chicago-cop-who-ran-torture-ring-released-prison

A former Chicago police commander who for decades ran a torture ring that used electrical shock, burning and beatings on more than 100 black men has been released from federal prison after spending less than four years behind bars.

...

While Emanuel has described Burge as a “stain on the city’s reputation,” the 66-year-old ex-cop is still receiving a $4,000-a-month pension from the city.

According to In These Times, the Burge affair has cost taxpayers more than $120 million, including more than $22 million in pension costs for Burge and his former cohorts, plus an additional $15 million in investigating and prosecuting Burge’s crimes.

Damn, I want to still get paid after I get caught using my position of power to torture, murder, and falsely imprison poor people. When's the next academy class?

Oct 3, 2014#425

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
When's the next academy class?

http://www.hpdcareer.com/academy.html

--Patrick

Oct 4, 2014#426

jwhouk

The worst thing in the world for anyone would be a former cop or guard in prison. Your life would be a living hell.

Oct 4, 2014#427

AshburnerX

jwhouk said:
The worst thing in the world for anyone would be a former cop or guard in prison. Your life would be a living hell.

Not really. If they put you in Gen Pop, you tend to be dead in a few weeks. The real hell is reserved for the ones that go into protective custody and basically spend their term in solitary.

Oct 5, 2014#428

Charlie Don't Surf

jwhouk said:
The worst thing in the world for anyone would be a former cop or guard in prison. Your life would be a living hell.

Police should support comprehensive prison reform. Then when they get caught breaking the law, they wouldn't be subject to that living hell.

Oct 5, 2014#429

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Police should support comprehensive prison reform. Then when they get caught breaking the law, they wouldn't be subject to that living hell.

Police supporting it does not equal it going into effect. The American prison system is a business; do you really think a business gives a shit what the police think?

Oct 5, 2014#430

PatrThom

Zero Esc said:
Police supporting it does not equal it going into effect. The American prison system is a business; do you really think a business gives a shit what the police think?

Probably just as much as the plantation owners cared about the people who piloted the ships.

--Patrick

Oct 5, 2014#431

Bowielee

Zero Esc said:
The American prison system is a business

Therein lies probably the biggest issue with the American justice system.

Oct 6, 2014#432

Charlie Don't Surf

I was operating in a wild, fantastical hypothetical world where cops are ever even charged with crimes.

Oct 6, 2014#433

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I was operating in a wild, fantastical hypothetical world where cops are ever even charged with crimes.

Well, since the subject sprang up because of one getting out of jail, logic would dictate at some point he was charged with at least one crime and found guilty, thus went in jail. I don't think he just wandered in and thought, "This would be a nice place to spend the next four years." I get the source of your hyperbole and it pisses me off too, but it's contradicted by your own article eight posts up.

Oct 6, 2014#434

Bowielee

I'm not even sure if he thinks he's being hyperbolic.

Oct 6, 2014#435

Charlie Don't Surf

we're through the looking glass

Oct 8, 2014#436

fade

Here are some more interesting stats:

From a public survey (not police self-reporting, though the survey was administered by the DOJ):
- in 2008 there were 17.6 million reported traffic stops, or 8.4% of the driving population
- Simply being stopped does not correlate to race. This makes sense anyway, because you try to identify the race of a driver through modern UV coated windshields. Roughly 8% of all reporters reported being stopped from each self-identified race.
- 5% of that 8% developed into searches. For those playing along at home, that's 0.4% of the stopped people.
- Black drivers were 3x as likely as white people to be searched, and 2x as likely as hispanic drivers.

From here it seems that of the high death on the job death rate of police officers, more than half of those deaths occurred during traffic stops.

If it sounds like I am defending the police, I guess I am in a way--though not directly. I think it's strange when any group is characterized by the actions of a few. Those actions are terrible. I'm in no way condoning any of them. But for me, it does beg the question. To properly assess how widespread the problem is, we do need to put it in a statistical perspective. That's the only way to be sure that there really is a "blue wall", or that the police really are suppressing the public both in general and on average more than any other subgroup of our society. Objectively, these stats show that a huge percentage of drivers get pulled over. They show that a large percentage of officers are killed at traffic stops. They show a racial and gender bias in searching, particularly toward black men. These stats seem on par with the deep-seated racial biases in this country, which are terrible, but don't seem specific to police. The police are able to combine this racial bias with power to create institutionalized racism, and to engender sheer terror given their armed and armored status, no doubt.

Oct 8, 2014#437

CrimsonSoul

fade said:
assess

He... Ass..

Oct 9, 2014#438

Charlie Don't Surf

It's happening again.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/natio...-police-fatally-shoot-man-20141008-story.html

Oct 9, 2014#439

Hailey Knight

And will continue to happen.

Oct 9, 2014#440

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
It's happening again.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/natio...-police-fatally-shoot-man-20141008-story.html

Yep, another cop was shot at. Happens quite a lot.

Oct 9, 2014#441

Bowielee

That's one of the most misrepresentative and click-baity headlines I've ever seen.

Oct 9, 2014#442

LittleSin

It says in the news story a gun was recovered at the scene...but isn't St. Louis open carry? I mean, what if the dude really did have a sand which in his hand?

Aren't we jumping to conclusions if we assume the cop was shot at?

Oct 9, 2014#443

Bowielee

LittleSin said:
It says in the news story a gun was recovered at the scene...but isn't St. Louis open carry? I mean, what if the dude really did have a sand which in his hand?

Aren't we jumping to conclusions if we assume the cop was shot at?

Everything is an assumption at this point.

Oct 9, 2014#444

Ravenpoe

Bowielee said:
Everything is an assumption at this point.

Yeah, that news story basically boils down to "We have no idea what happened, so lets jump straight to outrage."

Oct 9, 2014#445

Charlie Don't Surf

There wasn't a riot and no militarized police were brought in since it was happening in a white neighborhood.

Oct 10, 2014#446

PatrThom

Charlie Don't Surf said:
There wasn't a riot and no militarized police were brought in since it was happening in a white neighborhood.

You could also have suggested that all the police were lazy, or that they were all busy attending to hundreds of other crimes in the crime-ridden area, or that the department is horribly understaffed due to budget cuts. All are equally as plausible.

--Patrick

Oct 10, 2014#447

Covar

PatrThom said:
You could also have suggested that all the police were lazy, or that they were all busy attending to hundreds of other crimes in the crime-ridden area, or that the department is horribly understaffed due to budget cuts. All are equally as plausible.

--Patrick

I don't see all cops are racist fascists in there. Way to be part of the problem!

Oct 10, 2014#448

PatrThom

Covar said:
I don't see all cops are racist fascists in there. Way to be part of the problem!

I thought that was implied via "white neighborhood."

--Patrick

Oct 22, 2014#449

fade

Holy crap, the comments section is like a white power orgy.

Oct 22, 2014#450

Charlie Don't Surf

stienman said:
I doubt, however, that this news will change the minds of those still agitating in Ferguson.

Darren Wilson swinging in the town square even wouldn't change the minds of the people systematically repressed and sometimes literally beaten down for over 200 years by the white men in power.

Oct 22, 2014#451

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Darren Wilson swinging in the town square even wouldn't change the minds of the people systematically repressed and sometimes literally beaten down for over 200 years by the white men in power.

Good thing there aren't any of those.

Oct 22, 2014#452

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Good thing there aren't any of those.

Yeah. After 200 years you'd think they'd literally have enough trouble standing up under their own power. Or breathing.

--Patrick

Oct 26, 2014#453

Dave

Man, this is a GREAT article. By a guy you may have heard of. Frank Seripco.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html

Oct 26, 2014#454

Hailey Knight

Dave said:
Man, this is a GREAT article. By a guy you may have heard of. Frank Seripco.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html

Everyone should read this article.

EDIT: You know, you wonder why more police don't step up, and then you read stuff like this.

Only a few years ago, a cop who was in the same 81st Precinct I started in, Adrian Schoolcraft, was actually taken to a psych ward and handcuffed to a gurney for six days after he tried to complain about corruption – they wanted him to keep to a quota of summonses, and he wasn’t complying. No one would have believed him except he hid a tape recorder in his room, and recorded them making their demands. Now he’s like me, an outcast.

Oct 30, 2014#455

DarkAudit

Welp...

Columnist for the conservative paper in Charleston calls Michael Brown an "animal that needed to be put down," then redacts that line, then deletes the entire post in hopes of saving his job...

It didn't help.

Oct 30, 2014#456

Hailey Knight

Oct 31, 2014#457

GasBandit

2014 in 11 seconds

"But my Uber is down there! UGH"

Nov 1, 2014#458

Hailey Knight

And so a meme begins ...

Nov 2, 2014#459

Chad Sexington

GasBandit said:
2014 in 11 seconds

"But my Uber is down there! UGH"

What is an Uber?

Nov 2, 2014#460

GasBandit

Chad Sexington said:
What is an Uber?

The current fad in trendy transportation. It's an app-based private ~~taxi service~~ ride-sharing program that lets most anybody ~~turn their car into a taxi when they feel like it~~ share their car as a ride for others, for money, but it's totally not a taxi service so it isn't subject to the same licensing and regulations as taxi companies.

Nov 2, 2014#461

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
The current fad in trendy transportation. It's an app-based private ~~taxi service~~ ride-sharing program that lets most anybody ~~turn their car into a taxi when they feel like it~~ share their car as a ride for others, for money, but it's totally not a taxi service so it isn't subject to the same licensing and regulations as taxi companies.

At the same time, it honestly feels like Uber wouldn't be a thing if the taxi companies...

- didn't charge such a high price
- actually cleaned and maintained their cabs
- introduced a rating system for passengers so the company knows which drivers are worth keeping

The only reason they can't compete is because they refuse to improve their service.

Nov 2, 2014#462

GasBandit

AshburnerX said:
At the same time, it honestly feels like Uber wouldn't be a thing if the taxi companies...

- didn't charge such a high price
- actually cleaned and maintained their cabs
- introduced a rating system for passengers so the company knows which drivers are worth keeping

The only reason they can't compete is because they refuse to improve their service.

Wonderful how the market finds ways to fill the demands of consumers, regardless of what bureaucrats think, isn't it?

Nov 2, 2014#463

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Wonderful how the market finds ways to fill the demands of consumers, regardless of what bureaucrats think, isn't it?

And how the Quo runs to the bureaucrats when their status is threatened.

--Patrick

Nov 2, 2014#464

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
Wonderful how the market finds ways to fill the demands of consumers, regardless of what bureaucrats think, isn't it?

nooooooooo I think we need those regulations from all those pesky bureaucrats... http://www.dailydot.com/business/10-things-uber-drivers-have-done-wrong/

This is just the tip of the iceberg of Uber horror stories, btw

Nov 2, 2014#465

AshburnerX

GasBandit said:
Wonderful how the market finds ways to fill the demands of consumers, regardless of what bureaucrats think, isn't it?

Yes, it IS wonderful when the citizens of a city work around an underfunded public transportation system that doesn't actually get people to where they want to go or have locations they can easily get to because big business funded politicians gutted it.

In all seriousness though, Uber is basically Megabus for taxis. Megabus is really undercutting guys like Greyhound by being both faster and cheaper than it, with much nicer buses to boot. It's what happens when you don't bloat your business beyond it's necessities.

Nov 2, 2014#466

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
nooooooooo I think we need those regulations from all those pesky bureaucrats... http://www.dailydot.com/business/10-things-uber-drivers-have-done-wrong/

This is just the tip of the iceberg of Uber horror stories, btw

Because there's never been a horror story about a licensed cab driver.

Nov 2, 2014#467

Charlie Don't Surf

GasBandit said:
Because there's never been a horror story about a licensed cab driver.

but they have things like licenses, numbers, bosses you can report them to, picture IDs in every cab, etc etc. This whole thing is PERFECTLY illustrating why we need the government and bureaucracy so that any idiot can't kidnap people

Nov 2, 2014#468

Krisken

AshburnerX said:
Yes, it IS wonderful when the citizens of a city work around an underfunded public transportation system that doesn't actually get people to where they want to go or have locations they can easily get to because big business funded politicians gutted it.

In all seriousness though, Uber is basically Megabus for taxis. Megabus is really undercutting guys like Greyhound by being both faster and cheaper than it, with much nicer buses to boot. It's what happens when you don't bloat your business beyond it's necessities.

Don't even get me started on Megabus. Their 'service' was a huge pain in the ass for my wife and I when she was still going to school in Chicago and they'd move the pick-up location without telling anyone. She just reminded me of the time the bus driver ignored her and just drove past her. When she called and complained they wouldn't give her a refund.

Nov 2, 2014#469

AshburnerX

Krisken said:
Don't even get me started on Megabus. Their 'service' was a huge pain in the ass for my wife and I when she was still going to school in Chicago and they'd move the pick-up location without telling anyone. She just reminded me of the time the bus driver ignored her and just drove past her. When she called and complained they wouldn't give her a refund.

Moving the location usually isn't their fault: they have to license the location from the business in front of location and they can lose that lease if passengers piss off the owners. When that happened here to me, I got an email notification about it.

As for refunds... I got my $60 back when my bus broke down (some hydraulic part busted as we left a rest stop). Had to wait 5 hours to get a bus though, as they had to hire another bus from another company and no one opened until 8am.

It was still better than $120 and 3 hour lay overs with Greyhound.

Nov 2, 2014#470

Krisken

Once they took her to the wrong city, it was their own fault, and then they wanted to charge her $70 to take her to the right city. It took 2 hours to get them to finally submit and take her to the right city.

Just saying, our personal experience with Megabus has been total shit, and she said "Fuck Megabus" when I asked her how she felt about them.

Nov 2, 2014#471

Covar

The best thing about uber is watching the formerly government enforcement monopolies suddenly struggling with competition.

Nov 7, 2014#472

GasBandit

The market giveth and the market taketh away. Uber's pricing floats with demand... sooooo this halloween...

Lauren in Florida paid $200 to go 11 miles to dinner.
Brook in San Diego paid $92 for a 2.7-mile ride on Halloween.
And Gabby from Baltimore woke up on her 26th birthday to discover the 20-min ride she took home the night before cost $362.
First world problems? Sure. More expensive than it ought to be? Probably.
There is renewed, public outrage this week about Uber's hefty surge pricing, specifically concerning Halloween weekend. After being flooded with complaints earlier this year, the Better business bureau gave Uber an "F" grade, according to the New York Times.
And Uber doesn't seem to really care. Previously, Uber's CEO did an obnoxious "Pro Tips" about using Uber on New Year's Eve.

The company reiterates on their website, in a special Halloween post, that the surge pricing is meant to keep enough drivers on the road during peak hours.

"Surge pricing allows us to remain reliable, even on one of the busiest nights of the year. Our rates will float in real time with fluctuations in supply and demand. Increased rates incentivize more driver partners to get on the roads and ensure those who need a ride won't be left stranded."

So in the meantime, maybe don't take Uber? Or if you must, a new app called SurgeProtector was released this week to help alleviate the problem, as BuzzFeed points out, which shows you the nearest location that isn't currently charging surge pricing.

Nov 7, 2014#473

Terrik

All of you that lobby against increased investment in rail and public transportation can go jump off a cliff.

You might have to drive there yourself, though.

Nov 7, 2014#474

GasBandit

stienman said:
What gets me is that people seem not to know what the ride is going to cost until they are at their destination.

Sounds like someone got taken... for a ride.

Surely you don't mean to imply that basic bitches just punch buttons without reading and OMG can't even later. Because that would strain my credulity, sir.

Nov 7, 2014#475

Anonymous

And they have shitty, underhanded business practices.

Nov 7, 2014#476

Dave

Yay! I can post anonymously again!!

Nov 7, 2014#477

CrimsonSoul

Anonymous said:
And they have shitty, underhanded business practices.

Dave said:
Yay! I can post anonymously again!!

I think you're doing it wrong.

Nov 7, 2014#478

Tiger Tsang

Meh, from Uber's support website

With surge pricing, Uber rates increase to get more cars on the road and ensure reliability during the busiest times. When enough cars are on the road, prices go back down to normal levels. It’s important to know that you’ll always be notified in big, bold print if surge pricing is in effect. When rates are more than double, the surge confirmation screen also requires you to type in the specific surge multiplier to ensure you understand what rates to expect.

You drunk call an Uber and type in that surge mulitplier, that's on you. Other than the $$$'s, it's no different than getting in a taxi and finding out your taxi tacked on a bunch of miles and/or time while you were passed out or blackout schnozzled.

Nov 7, 2014#479

AshburnerX

Tiger Tsang said:
You drunk call an Uber and type in that surge mulitplier, that's on you. Other than the $$$'s, it's no different than getting in a taxi and finding out your taxi tacked on a bunch of miles and/or time while you were passed out or blackout schnozzled.

I have to agree with this. It's not like they are the only game in town and they make the price very clear to you before you confirm. Don't blame Uber for your own irresponsibility.

Nov 9, 2014#480

Charlie Don't Surf

nah, I'll still blame Uber for being a really shitty capitalist company

Nov 9, 2014#481

PatrThom

stienman said:
You could start a competing non profit company that doesn't have surge pricing.

He would charge less, and he could call it "Unter."

--Patrick

Nov 10, 2014#482

Charlie Don't Surf

I'd rather lobby our government to invest time and money into infrastructure to make free, public transportation a priority in all major cities.

Nov 10, 2014#483

Covar

I don't think you understand what free means. Or just how impractical public transportation is in smaller cities like mine. Or how San Francisco's unique brand of crazy and government regulation is what created uber to begin with.

Nov 10, 2014#484

Terrik

Covar said:
I don't think you understand what free means. Or just how impractical public transportation is in smaller cities like mine. Or how San Francisco's unique brand of crazy and government regulation is what created uber to begin with.

Well yes, that would be a failure of the SF government then. I've been to too many countries with amazing public transportation systems that the fact the #1 economy in the world has such an underdeveloped system is downright embarrassing.

Nov 10, 2014#485

Terrik

stienman said:
Ah, right. You aren't interested in spending your own money, you want to spend everyone else's money.

Infrastructure is a good use of public funds.

Nov 10, 2014#486

Covar

Not in an area as spread out as the one I live in. The research triangle has a population of over 2 million spread out over 8 counties. The bus systems are horribly inefficient versus a car (20 minute drive turns into an hour and a half by bus), and a rail solution would have the exact same problems. There is very little need, and no advantage to creating a new public transportation network.

I've also never seen a public transportation service that was "free." unless you count NCSU's wolf line buses, which actually worked well for the exact opposite reasons that I mentioned above. Of course it's paid for by the students, and I believe not technically open to the public (and it only goes to locations on and around campus).

Nov 10, 2014#487

Charlie Don't Surf

The reason everyone is so spread out is BECAUSE there is no public transportation, not the other way around.

Nov 10, 2014#488

Eriol

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The reason everyone is so spread out is BECAUSE there is no public transportation, not the other way around.

No it's actually because given the choice, people will live in houses with their own land around them, rather than apartment buildings. Are there people who prefer being jammed in closer? Sure there are, but it's not the majority by CHOICE. Necessity drives it more than anything else.

Nov 10, 2014#489

AshburnerX

Eriol said:
No it's actually because given the choice, people will live in houses with their own land around them, rather than apartment buildings. Are there people who prefer being jammed in closer? Sure there are, but it's not the majority by CHOICE. Necessity drives it more than anything else.

This is actually becoming less and less true. Millennials (who were raised in suburbs) are flocking to cities whenever they can because they'd rather live somewhere where places they want to go are within walking distance than own a house that is 20-30 minutes away from any place they'd actually want to be.

Nov 10, 2014#490

PatrThom

AshburnerX said:
This is actually becoming less and less true. Millennials (who were raised in suburbs) are flocking to cities whenever they can because they'd rather have decent Internet service

FTFY

--Patrick

Nov 10, 2014#491

GasBandit

That's what got me out of the sticks, true enough.

Nov 10, 2014#492

Eriol

AshburnerX said:
This is actually becoming less and less true. Millennials (who were raised in suburbs) are flocking to cities whenever they can because they'd rather live somewhere where places they want to go are within walking distance than own a house that is 20-30 minutes away from any place they'd actually want to be.

Possibly, and obviously I know there are people who don't want to live detached, but also, housing prices were going through the roof everywhere (you guys crashed, you are an exception) and mostly, it's only those able to support a MASSIVE mortgage, or those who already had "some money" who can actually afford non-apartment living. Most of Canada's big cities are obvious candidates for exactly this. You have 3 choices:

Live in an apartment/condo - usually at least reasonably close to the city's downtown, but perhaps not, but still semi-reasonable to start out in even buying
Live in a suburb at least 30 years old to be reasonably close - expect your crappiest house to start at $500,000 or more. (link)
Live REALLY far out, an hour or more, but actually get something resembling affordable.

And people are choosing 3. And they keep getting built further and further out because of housing prices. Now you guys haven't seen this for the better part of a decade in most of your cities due to your crappy employment and real estate markets, but this keeps happening in LOTS of places around the world.

Nov 10, 2014#493

GasBandit

Actually, that was exactly how our real estate market was going up until the end of 2008. Huge houses way out in the boonies with lots of land, and 90 minute commutes.

Nov 10, 2014#494

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Actually, that was exactly how our real estate market was going up until the end of 2008. Huge houses way out in the boonies with lots of land, and 90 minute commutes.

And you could afford it, because you sold your old 1200sqft house for $150k. Now those same houses are going for 50-60k.

--Patrick

Nov 19, 2014#495

Adam

"Ad hominem invective" I'm so stealing this.

Nov 20, 2014#496

Dave

That was such a wonderful and off the cuff speech. No victim blaming, no racism. Just real talk. It's hard to find fault in anything the guy has to say.

Nov 20, 2014#497

Necronic

That was an incredible speech

Nov 21, 2014#498

Charlie Don't Surf

I wish I was wrong. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/20/1346374/-BREAKING-VIDEO-Police-Lied-Mike-Brown-was-killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV#http://t.co/qH1hSm2dnr

For 104 days, the police have lied and said Mike Brown was killed 35 feet away from Darren Wilson's SUV. It was actually 148 feet.
This distance is essential to the defense and how Darren Wilson must demonstrate that he "reasonably feared for his safety." At the point in which Mike Brown ran half a football field away, how reasonable is it for an armed officer to fear anyone?

Nov 21, 2014#499

Terrik

stienman said:
Why would the distance matter? If Brown went after Wilson in the car, then Wilson was to arrest Brown. Chasing Brown in order to arrest him is well within his job. If Brown decided at any point to turn around and fight rather than continue running, Wilson has reason to believe his life is in danger, and reason to use lethal force.

I don't think distance can be used to determine the validity of lethal force.

I am rather loathe to agree with Charlie here but one could argue the distance certainly matters if it was important enough for the police to lie about it this long. If it doesn't matter and what you say is correct, then it still looks bad and doesn't help public perception.

Nov 21, 2014#500

AshburnerX

Anyone ever hear of a Tueller Drill? It's training for police officers to give them an idea of how much time they have before someone could stab/strike them as they pull their weapon.

Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]
A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]
The Tueller Drill combines both parts of the original time trials by Tueller. There are several ways it can be conducted:[3]

The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).

A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.

If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemmas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot.[4]
Notes

Tueller, Dennis (March 1983), How Close is Too Close?, S.W.A.T. Magazine

Ayoob, Massad (October 1991), Explaining the deadly force decision: the opportunity factor, Shooting Industry

Young, Dan. "Handgun Drills, Standards, and Training Page". Retrieved 2008-04-16.

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/duel-dilemmas.htm

So the minimum distance you can ever reasonable expect to fire on someone coming at you and live is about 20 feet. Any closer and they will always hit you. Even taking into account that Wilson was likely poorly trained, he still killed Brown at 7.4 times the distance that Brown could have EVER hurt him without a gun. That means he started pulling his gun on Brown ether before he did anything to Wilson (in which case it's straight up murder) or while Brown was AT MINIMUM 168 feet away (or 8.4 times the distance Brown could have reasonably harmed him at), which is far beyond any reasonable distance at which Wilson could have feared for his life. Not only that, he fired multiple times and hit Brown at that distance, which suggests he's ether a fucking crack shot or he took his time to aim.

So... yeah. Wilson really didn't have any reasonable reason to believe Brown could have harmed him, unless he thought Brown had a gun. But that's never been stated or mentioned and no weapon or weapon object was ever found. His story was always that Brown was charging at him. I really don't see how he can get beyond this.

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