[Movies] The DC Cinematic Universe - The David Zazlav Dumpster Fire.

The thing is, I'm not sure that the MCU Tony Stark is an actual alcoholic. Hard-drinking party boy? Absolutely. Dependent on alcohol? Not really that they've shown. The movies are their own continuity, based off of but not beholden to the original comics. The way I read it is that in the MCU, Tony drinks because it helps him deal with other people. He's so brilliant that other people generally bore him - they're slow, obtuse, and annoying. But if he's got half a load on, impairing his amazing mind to more normal levels? Then he can tolerate being with people he doesn't know well, who can't possibly see things the way he does. When he's intrigued or working alone on something, though? He gets so focused that he'll forget to eat, much less drink.

The reason Thor 2 failed was because it was boring. So many elements of it were handled poorly, and the only genuinely good scenes in the movie were the scenes with Loki. They immediately set off on the wrong foot by making too big a deal over Thor and Jane's "relationship". You have to recall, they only knew each other a few days, and for half that time, she thought (not unreasonably) that he was possibly mentally ill. Thor seemed to like her, and there was definitely chemistry, but it couldn't be called love - more like a special crush that leaves you wondering what might have been. Hell, in The Avengers, it was enough for Thor for Coulson to tell him that they transferred Jane to a safe location, he didn't ask to see her - there were bigger issues at hand. Then comes Thor 2, and we find out that she was depressed for weeks, crying and staying in bed, etc. That's kind of ridiculous. So you have that plot tumor, combined with Odin becoming a tremendous jerkass instead of the wise king, and a villain that was just dull and forgettable.
 
I thought the best parts of Thor 2 were the humorous parts (Darcy! Jane! Ian! Selvig! Mew mew!). Which goes back to what the article was saying.
 
Even the first two Nolan Batman movies had some wisecracks and sarcastic jokes here and there. Not lots, and not really from Batman, but there was a healthy supporting cast. Even Joker got a couple laughs.

Yet even this is too much for WB? I see that list of Upcoming Untitled DC Projects slimming if they can't get these movies to resonate with audiences.
 
Even the first two Nolan Batman movies had some wisecracks and sarcastic jokes here and there. Not lots, and not really from Batman, but there was a healthy supporting cast. Even Joker got a couple laughs.
Dare I say it was the creepy hilarity of the Joker that made The Dark Knight so memorable, and the complete absence of levity in The Dark Knight Rises was what made it so "meh".
 
Even the first two Nolan Batman movies had some wisecracks and sarcastic jokes here and there. Not lots, and not really from Batman, but there was a healthy supporting cast. Even Joker got a couple laughs.

Yet even this is too much for WB? I see that list of Upcoming Untitled DC Projects slimming if they can't get these movies to resonate with audiences.
How the fuck can you do a Shazam movie, a comic about a kind, wise cracking kid with the power and body of a god... without doing some god damn jokes?
 
It does help that they've either glossed over or just not done anything with the darker Marvel plotlines, especially Tony's alcoholism, among other things.
Well it's not like Tony was an alcoholic by origin like Doctor Strange. It didn't come about until a writer noticed that artists tended to draw him with a drink in his hand an awful lot, and decided to make it a plot point.
 
Well it's not like Tony was an alcoholic by origin like Doctor Strange. It didn't come about until a writer noticed that artists tended to draw him with a drink in his hand an awful lot, and decided to make it a plot point.
Didn't know that's how they went with it, but it did become a pretty big part of his story as a character and a recurring plot point, brought up even as recently as Fear Itself a couple years ago (he gives up his sobriety to prove to Odin how badly they need help, or something like that).
 
Well, the thing is, that works with Batman, to a point. Batman is a mentally tortured character. Marvel's superheroes are much better adjusted, for the most part, and so they can make jokes even when it's dark. *Especially* when it's dark - it's how they cope. That's why Phil Coulson can be bleeding out and say, "So that's what it does." That's why Peter Quill can be facing certain annihilation and crack jokes.

I don't want humourless, grim heroes. I want heroes who inspire us to do better, who don't live entirely in grey, blue, and brown filtered worlds. I want vibrant worlds where the heroes try to save civilians. (Yes, the climax of the Avengers was destructive, but Whedon specifically has a moment saying "Oh, by the way, while our heroes are fighting the aliens, the cops are evacuating people to safety.")

I don't want more of Man of Steel or Batnolan. I can't wait for more Star-Lord and Groot and Captain America.
Thanks Obama Miller! :D
 
Speaking of Frank Miller, reviews of Sin City: A Dame to Kill For are not particularly positive. Honestly, when the first Sin City came out, the style and effects were new and novel and impressive and the gritty noir anti-heroic presentation made it unique. But that was then. If this had come out 2 years after Sin City, then it would probably have been a hit. But it's been 9 years, and audiences have moved on. I haven't watched my copy of Sin City on DVD in at least 3 years. Seeing the trailers for it, my only real reaction has been, "Eva Green playing another super sexy evil bitch."
 
Speaking of Frank Miller, reviews of Sin City: A Dame to Kill For are not particularly positive. Honestly, when the first Sin City came out, the style and effects were new and novel and impressive and the gritty noir anti-heroic presentation made it unique. But that was then. If this had come out 2 years after Sin City, then it would probably have been a hit. But it's been 9 years, and audiences have moved on. I haven't watched my copy of Sin City on DVD in at least 3 years. Seeing the trailers for it, my only real reaction has been, "Eva Green playing another super sexy evil bitch."
Sounds like a repeat of comic history.
 
I still think the style of the movie is cool, but yeah I can't say I was chomping at the bit for the movie to release. Still haven't seen it.
 
Didn't know that's how they went with it, but it did become a pretty big part of his story as a character and a recurring plot point, brought up even as recently as Fear Itself a couple years ago (he gives up his sobriety to prove to Odin how badly they need help, or something like that).
Yup, just wanted to point that out though as a reason why skipping over his alcoholism is perfectly acceptable, even preferable for the first few movies.
 
How the fuck can you do a Shazam movie, a comic about a kind, wise cracking kid with the power and body of a god... without doing some god damn jokes?
Well crap, I was kind of optimistically looking forward to this and hadn't even considered it in reading that article. Damn.
 
By doing pretty much exactly what they did with him in the new 52 universe.
They don't need to darken him up! He's a victim of child abuse, living on his own because MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!, trying to take care of himself AND his friends on the meager cash he gets for working at a RADIO STATION. He's lucky when he's in a fucking apartment. He's had a friend gunned down right in front of him!

WHY DOES HE NEED TO BE GRIM DARK?!
 
They don't need to darken him up! He's a victim of child abuse, living on his own because MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!, trying to take care of himself AND his friends on the meager cash he gets for working at a RADIO STATION. He's lucky when he's in a fucking apartment. He's had a friend gunned down right in front of him!

WHY DOES HE NEED TO BE GRIM DARK?!
Because DC isn't satisfied with comics aimed solely at 45-year old males. Now they want movies aimed at 45-year old males.

Seriously, though, this is friggin' stupid. The lesson they should be taking is that they should craft films whose tones fit the heroes they are centered around. Shazam, for example, should be light and fun, because even through all of the dark stuff that Billy Batson deals with, he is still a good kid and wants to help others, which he can do by turning into an adult with superpowers. You could easily make a lazy pitch of "Big with superpowers" and still at least get in the ballpark, instead of making Billy Batson a brooding grimdark hero.
 
I'm starting to wonder if the problem at DC is that it's letting the comics people dictate the direction of the movies instead of the movie people dictating the direction of the comics. Any movie executive could have looked at the past several years of Marvel content and said "You know what? Let's take this a bit less seriously." The movies would still be knock offs but at least I wouldn't be embarrassed by their existence.
 
I'm starting to wonder if the problem at DC is that it's letting the comics people dictate the direction of the movies instead of the movie people dictating the direction of the comics. Any movie executive could have looked at the past several years of Marvel content and said "You know what? Let's take this a bit less seriously." The movies would still be knock offs but at least I wouldn't be embarrassed by their existence.
Drew McWeeny is usually pretty spot on so . . .

No Jokes!
 
I'm starting to wonder if the problem at DC is that it's letting the comics people dictate the direction of the movies instead of the movie people dictating the direction of the comics. Any movie executive could have looked at the past several years of Marvel content and said "You know what? Let's take this a bit less seriously." The movies would still be knock offs but at least I wouldn't be embarrassed by their existence.
I'm pretty sure it's more like, "Batman and Robin had jokes in it, and people hate that movie. The dark and gritty Batman movies by Christopher Nolan were huge hits. Green Lantern had jokes in it, it bombed. Man of Steel was made entirely of blue, grey, and brown filters, and it was a hit. So, the key is, NO JOKES!"

Completely missing the point that audiences avoided those movies because they just weren't good movies, filled with bad dialogue, poorly developed plots, forgettable characters, and hilariously bad effects. Nope, jokes are the key.
 
I can see it now. The two heroes are fighting it out in the grey landscapes of generic city. Both are tired and exhausted. Batman takes off his mask, "My parents are dead..." he says as he begins to cry. Superman raises his head, "Mine too..." as they both make eye contact. They both begin to cry as rainclouds come over head and the two embrace as the camera zoom in on Ben Afflicks snot filled nostrils and Henry Cavills red cry eyes.

The End.
 
I can see it now. The two heroes are fighting it out in the grey landscapes of generic city. Both are tired and exhausted. Batman takes off his mask, "My parents are dead..." he says as he begins to cry. Superman raises his head, "Mine too..." as they both make eye contact. They both begin to cry as rainclouds come over head and the two embrace as the camera zoom in on Ben Afflicks snot filled nostrils and Henry Cavills red cry eyes.

The End.
Spoilers!
 
Completely missing the point that audiences avoided those movies because they just weren't good movies, filled with bad dialogue, poorly developed plots, forgettable characters, and hilariously bad effects. Nope, jokes are the key.
I also think a big key is the balance of the jokes. The issue with Batman and Robin was that they felt out how much "camp" audiences would take in the franchise with Batman Forever. Then they turned that camp up to a Ice Pun Arnold levels of crazy.

Successful movies take things seriously for the most part, but throw in punctuated points of comedy. Even the original Batman, for all it's gloom, had some laughingly hilarious moments (The Joker's comicly long gun, the Batwing flying in the path of the moon to make the symbol, "You wouldn't hit a guy with glasses would you? "PUNCH") It's all about how you balance it, build it, and how subtle you present it.

Iron Man 3 was probably not the best of the Iron Man movies, but I still laugh anytime I think about how outrageously awkward they built him up with his newest suit. It knocks him in the ass, gets stuck in a barn, crashes into a truck. It made it all the more funny when during the climax we think "Oh wow here comes the suit, Tony is going to kick some ass!" only for it to once again bumble and break apart. The look of "Not again...." on RDJs face just sells that whole sequence.

That is where I think Marvel really shines. Every climax is fun to watch, has dramatic action, but also throws in scenes that just remind how funny the whole thing is too. Loki's speech interrupted when Hulk smashes him around, Hulk punching Thor after taking down a Chitari ship, the Star-Lord Dance Off, "Selvig! Jane! Mojlnir!", Thor laying Mojlnir on Loki while he attempts to stop the Byfrost, etc... Those scenes are what help you remember everything else around it.
 
And in the understated moments, too. And even when it's not a joke, having a bit that breaks the tension is good. Like, late in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, there's a bit where Steve and Natascha are talking - not about the plot, not about the importance of what's going on, but Steve admitting that he was interested in some of the women she wanted to set him up with. Then mentioning someone with (I think, I'm not certain) "pink hair, and that ring or something in her lip". Natascha says, "Yeah, she's cute." Steve nods, then goes, "Yeah, but that's a little to wild to start with." I like it, because it shows that he is willing to try and get out there socially (Steve never had much luck with women pre-augmentation, and afterwards he was too busy in the war effort) but he's still a bit shy. It's a nice reminder that these heroes are still people, too.
 
And in the understated moments, too. And even when it's not a joke, having a bit that breaks the tension is good. Like, late in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, there's a bit where Steve and Natascha are talking - not about the plot, not about the importance of what's going on, but Steve admitting that he was interested in some of the women she wanted to set him up with. Then mentioning someone with (I think, I'm not certain) "pink hair, and that ring or something in her lip". Natascha says, "Yeah, she's cute." Steve nods, then goes, "Yeah, but that's a little to wild to start with." I like it, because it shows that he is willing to try and get out there socially (Steve never had much luck with women pre-augmentation, and afterwards he was too busy in the war effort) but he's still a bit shy. It's a nice reminder that these heroes are still people, too.
I think that's the same scene where they're in a truck they've just stolen. I love that scene, because Natasha is surprised that Steve knows how to hotwire a car, and he tells the story of how he learned in Germany when they had to steal a nazi truck. And then he tells her they're just borrowing it, and to get her feet off the dash.

Even in that time of emergency, he still has the right thing in mind. They had to take the truck, but he's going to return it if possible, and he wants to respect the property that belongs to someone else. Always an idealist. Steve Rogers in the Marvel movies is a better Superman than Superman in the (current) DC movies.
 
Another moment in Winter Soldier I really liked was during one of the fights between Captain America and The Winter Soldier. (Well, actually I really liked all of their fights - you really got the sense that these were two well-trained master soldiers with superhuman abilities without all the jerky-cam and the Zak Snyder Slo-mo)

Cap has Bucky in an armbar, apparently a really painful one, trying to get him to drop the techy bit that is necessary to save the day. Bucky starts screaming in pain from it. Normally, this is where the hero flashes back to moments of how their friend used to be, and goes easy on them because they can't hurt their friend, only for that to immediately bite them in the ass and require a quick change of plans to avoid disaster. But Cap knows that if he fails, thousands of innocent people, as well as his fellow Avengers and other heroic types, will be killed in seconds. Bucky is the closest thing to family Cap has left, his best friend since childhood. And he bears down and keeps the armbar on until Bucky lets go of the techy bit. Cap didn't want to hurt his friend, but completing his mission was far more important. That's why he just takes the gunshot wounds instead of trying to avoid them - only completing the mission mattered, and taking the time to dodge or deflect was time he couldn't spare.

Also, in the Avengers, Captain America's orders weren't designed to defeat the Chitauri - it was to contain them. He knows that, by themselves, the Avengers can't stop the entire invasion, but if they can keep the Chitauri contained, if they can keep them from establishing a viable beachhead or spreading out in every direction, it gives the US military time to act. That's what he was doing - buying time for orders to be issues, forces to be mobilized, and the brunt of the US Armed Forces to be gathered to fight the Chitauri. Now, due to the nuke launched by SHIELD's council being used to destroy the Chitauri mothership on the other side of the portal, that became somewhat unnecessary - but there was no way of knowing that. In his mind, he was thinking, "We can't defeat the Chitauri ourselves, but we can protect the people trapped in the warzone and make it possible for the rest of the world to drive them back." And that's what makes him such a great hero.
 
I can see it now. The two heroes are fighting it out in the grey landscapes of generic city. Both are tired and exhausted. Batman takes off his mask, "My parents are dead..." he says as he begins to cry. Superman raises his head, "Mine too..." as they both make eye contact. They both begin to cry as rainclouds come over head and the two embrace as the camera zoom in on Ben Afflicks snot filled nostrils and Henry Cavills red cry eyes.

The End.
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