I was reading Stephen King for as long as I was able to comprehend adult literature.
The Zoe Quinn sex-for-reviews scandal
- Thread starter GasBandit
- Start date
I wish I'd been reading King that long. Instead it was Michael Crichton and Dean Koontz.
Desensitized to violence and gore, or desensitized to fictitious depictions of violence and gore? Because I think there's a difference. I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence to go on, since I'm too lazy to go looking for studies, but I know I myself am pretty desensitized to just about anything that can happen in a video game. But real life images of violence and gore (like the recent beheading videos people seem to want to link to when talking about them) make me incredibly uncomfortable.
I dont mind cutting off a 1000 heads in Dead Rising, or impaling someone in Skyrim.
Saw one beheading,couldnt sleep for days.
Saw one beheading,couldnt sleep for days.
Actually, now that I think about it, you have a point. Seeing videos where people actually get shot gets under my skin like nothing in a game or movie.
Along the lines of what Poe and Fade are talking about, I wonder if the problem lies in context. If there isn't follow-through in emphasizing the difference between "implied/fantasy" violence and "actual" violence, that's where the desensitization takes place. When I knew I was going to have Li'l Z, I read through some psychology books on raising boys (for extra insight), and one thing I noticed is that they said, in most cases, empathy needs to be emphasized, starting from a young age. Also, that while most young boys tend to be aggressive in their play, aggression should not be confused with violence, and shouldn't be dismissed as such. (This can also apply to girls as well, but the numbers show a much higher occurence in boys.)
Growing up, I loved the horror/slasher/monster movies they showed on TV. I started reading Stephen King as a preteen. My pre-school self loved "Thriller". But while my parents were pretty liberal when it came to what I was exposed to, they tended to talk about it with me. Like talking about the make-up involved with all that special FX. They also made it a point to remember to show patience and kindness to other, and they practiced what they preached (in my presence, anyway). They reminded me it was important to remember how it would feel if I was in someone else's shoes. Even now, I still enjoy that stuff, but seeing people actually hurt, or "make believe" hurt in realistic ways, gets me upset.
Growing up, I loved the horror/slasher/monster movies they showed on TV. I started reading Stephen King as a preteen. My pre-school self loved "Thriller". But while my parents were pretty liberal when it came to what I was exposed to, they tended to talk about it with me. Like talking about the make-up involved with all that special FX. They also made it a point to remember to show patience and kindness to other, and they practiced what they preached (in my presence, anyway). They reminded me it was important to remember how it would feel if I was in someone else's shoes. Even now, I still enjoy that stuff, but seeing people actually hurt, or "make believe" hurt in realistic ways, gets me upset.
fade
Staff member
To me, books are far less desensitizing. Any visual is of your own making. Older movies, even as recently as the 90s are usually so hammy that it's hard to take it seriously. But the newer stuff, and video games where your character uses real weapons and people react in realistic ways, those are different to me. I for one was pretty shocked by the opening scene of Skyrim. My son saw it, despite my objections, and couldn't care less. Because it was nothing compared to the multiplayer CoD he plays at his friends' houses.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/2/151/
Here's a more recent meta-analysis that was done. I know you can only see the abstract, but the gist of it is that former accusations of publishing bias against previous studies regarding video games and aggressive behavior, lower helping behaviors, and desensitization don't hold statistical water. It also shows that these effects aren't culturally unique to the US, they also looked at cross cultural results with Asian countries and found that their findings were the same.
That being said, aggressive behaviors, reduced helping behaviors, and desensitization don't automatically equate to violent outcomes, but that is where interventions such as what Z is talking about come in. I know that my mother allowed me to watch all the slasher films I wanted, but she also made sure that I understood that it was fake, this actually led to an obsession with special effects on my part and seriously wanted to do that as a career at one point.
What follows is by own opinion based on my knowledge of interventions and other social psychology stuff:
I think that the effects of violence portrayals in all media can be mitigated by parents, social peers, and other important people within a child's social hemisphere nurturing that child/teenager and modeling pro-social behaviors. While many of us may have had those influences, think for a moment about kids who are entrenched in this stuff who don't have strong mentor figures, small to no social circles, and are largely ignored and bullied. That leads to a pretty potent cocktail, especially when you add in post pubescent hormones, and the poor decision making that comes from that developmental stage. So while I don't think that violent media leads to direct violent outcomes, it CAN be a contributor.
So, long story short, there's a simple solution.
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Here's a more recent meta-analysis that was done. I know you can only see the abstract, but the gist of it is that former accusations of publishing bias against previous studies regarding video games and aggressive behavior, lower helping behaviors, and desensitization don't hold statistical water. It also shows that these effects aren't culturally unique to the US, they also looked at cross cultural results with Asian countries and found that their findings were the same.
That being said, aggressive behaviors, reduced helping behaviors, and desensitization don't automatically equate to violent outcomes, but that is where interventions such as what Z is talking about come in. I know that my mother allowed me to watch all the slasher films I wanted, but she also made sure that I understood that it was fake, this actually led to an obsession with special effects on my part and seriously wanted to do that as a career at one point.
What follows is by own opinion based on my knowledge of interventions and other social psychology stuff:
I think that the effects of violence portrayals in all media can be mitigated by parents, social peers, and other important people within a child's social hemisphere nurturing that child/teenager and modeling pro-social behaviors. While many of us may have had those influences, think for a moment about kids who are entrenched in this stuff who don't have strong mentor figures, small to no social circles, and are largely ignored and bullied. That leads to a pretty potent cocktail, especially when you add in post pubescent hormones, and the poor decision making that comes from that developmental stage. So while I don't think that violent media leads to direct violent outcomes, it CAN be a contributor.
So, long story short, there's a simple solution.
[DOUBLEPOST=1411738123,1411737899][/DOUBLEPOST]
While I was writing my novel up there, you posted this. This has been looked at as well in research and desensitization from books is generally less than that in any sort of visual medium. It's a far different experience to read about graphic violence than it is to see it.[DOUBLEPOST=1411738185][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I can tell from my own posts that I'm in full on research mode
fade
Staff member
Well, I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about my son and his friends, and an observation I can trace to a definite cause. Of course we have discussions about how it's not real and all that. That kind of goes without saying. To be clear, I don't think that it's a root cause for increased violence (as I said in my first post), but I do worry about what it means to him in terms of empathy.
I'm supporting your observation with actual research
I remember when Power Rangers became huge, most of their PSAs were about how the show isn't real and violence shouldn't be a response to problems. Apparently at the time (being in the target demo I don't really remember) there was a big concern over the violence because it was live action instead of animated.
I've never had to experience that in person, but I remember seeing that video of the politician that committed televised suicide by blowing his brains out. I've played all manner of violent video games, some of them super graphic and realistic, but this video (where you didn't even see honestly see a lot of gore) disturbed me right the fuck out.
Perhaps in a similar subject, I'll tell a story I've told here before. When I was very young, my aunt (against my mother's wishes) let me watch Nightmare on Elm Street. It scared the shit out of me, and I had nightmares that Freddy was going to come through my bed and kill me like he did to Johnny Depp. My mom then had me watch the making of behind the scenes video, where they show how Robert Englund gets put into the makeup chair to become Freddy, and how they made the fake blood, and set up all the special effect shots, etc etc. Even at that young age (I was around 5) it just clicked with me, like "Oh, it's just make believe." After that I was never afraid of horror movies again, and even became a big fan of them.
Yeah there's a big different between knowing that an actual person was killed / killed themselves, and seeing a bunch of animation mimic the act. I don't like seeing videos where someone actually gets badly hurt or killed, whereas ludicrous gibs in a videogame can be hilarious. Why? Because it's not real. No one's actually harmed. No big deal.
Should we just rename this the Video Game Controversy thread? It seems pretty general use now.
GasBandit
Staff member
I hate renaming threads for reasons I can't quantify.
I'm with you on this one. The level of realism nowadays is making the "uncanny valley" very small. On the other hand, while practical effects were often hammy, they were still "real", whereas there is a still a lot of computerized "realism" that clearly isn't there yet. But that's more about movies and TV. In video games, when you're immersed in an entire world that looks that way, it can get pretty disturbing. I know I mentioned it before, but when Mr. Z was playing one of the Black Ops, I had to leave the room. Children on fire? Nope nope nope nope nope...
I also wonder if part of our reticence is from looking at this through adult eyes. There has been scenes in movies, TV, etc. that didn't bother me as a kid or a teen, but make me wince now as an adult. Part of it was me being naive to the idea that people could (or would) really hurt each other in these ways. I watched the news and was pretty worldly kid when it came to current events, but I don't think I could wrap my brain around the idea that someone would WANT to do these things, or how easily they could happen. I think we're at a point (well, some of us) where we're more experienced with the possibilities and ramifications of violent acts, which makes us worry about it in a way kids can't comprehend yet. The trick with that is separating the ones that 1) don't fully understand/aren't influenced by violent imagery because they have no instincts/urges to hurt others, and 2)the others that don't have a problem with hurting others because they don't fully comprehend/have empathy.
How does one even associate "realism"? Before video games, we had movies, which are way more realistic then even video games now, but just because I watched "First Blood" as a kid, does not mean I suddenly turned apathetic towards conflict or loss. Video Games be damned. I knew in the end they were just movies.
The thing is, humans are pretty good about associating the "real" with the "show", we have been having violent stage plays since the days of old. Even in the cases of those that may form some strange cocoon of apathy (and I highly doubt it unless they have a mental disorder or very lousy parents), all it will take is the death of one person they care about, whether a family member, a friend, or someone close to them, and that realization that "there is no reset button" for those walls to come crashing over them. Life is not a game, a game does not represent life.
I wouldn't think so hard into it.
Who says you really "immerse" yourself in a game either? They always call you something else. Either Gordon Freeman, or Duke Nukem, or Soup MacTavish. Yes, you tell him what you want him to do with the magic of the game controller, but it's still never technically "you". Even in an RPG, half the men I know play female characters, and I don't think most of them secretly want to have breasts or have the urge to dress in plate bikinis.
There is an understanding of the disconnect, just like I don't see myself suddenly as John Rambo, or the oddly invisible man in the location cheering for him.[DOUBLEPOST=1411784079,1411783746][/DOUBLEPOST]I want to point out that, yes, there could be a possible problem of apathy due to realism in video games. All I am saying is that the statistics are not there, and the amount of factors that would have to be involved (shitty parents, isolation, peer ostrization) that I think it's silly to make it seem like it might turn into an epidemic.
My son already grasps the difference between the cars in my racing games and the ones on the street, and he is not even two.
You need a control group; you're just observing one sample. Your approach is hardly scientific.
If I judged things by just the kids I know personally and their friends, then all kids suck at video games and mainly want to play Wii dance games. No one can disprove because this is what I see.
Fade, have you ever considered that your kids and their friends just aren't as squeamish as you? I thought nothing of the Skyrim opening beheading, or the guy who died by arrows; it wasn't particularly realistic and it's not like the voice acting is Oscar caliber. My wife, who usually gets really antsy with violent scenes, didn't even flinch when the head rolled off. It's not even an intense scene until the dragon shows up. Everyone's kind of just standing around.
Fade, have you ever considered that your kids and their friends just aren't as squeamish as you? I thought nothing of the Skyrim opening beheading, or the guy who died by arrows; it wasn't particularly realistic and it's not like the voice acting is Oscar caliber. My wife, who usually gets really antsy with violent scenes, didn't even flinch when the head rolled off. It's not even an intense scene until the dragon shows up. Everyone's kind of just standing around.
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I think the difference between entertainment violence and real violence is that the entertainment sensationalises it. The way it's presented is almost always presented as "cool" or "awesome" in order to entertain the viewer. It's made to be as exciting as possible, even when it's suppose to be "realistic."
There's also a large disconnect with entertainment violence because you're in a completely safe environment, so you can relax and watch stuff go boom without worry of any consequences or injury to yourself or others. It's easy to sit back and watch a violent movie or play a violent game because that's all you're doing: sitting and watching/playing. It's meant to entertain and distract you from the real world, nothing else. But I think about when I've been in some tense or violent situations, I'm actually kind of cowardly. Hell, I was so upset from seeing a cat hit by a car just outside work once that I had to take the rest of the day off. There was nothing sensational about it.
Yet, when I play video games, I can cut through huge swaths of enemies without feeling anything. Or say I'm supposed to do something sneaky in, say, Assassin's Creed: I'll just take the direct approach, fighting as many as possible just to get through it. It's empowering, in fact. I've never felt empowered in real life situations, though I don't have many situations to go by. Never encountered anyone with a knife or a gun, for example.
There's also a large disconnect with entertainment violence because you're in a completely safe environment, so you can relax and watch stuff go boom without worry of any consequences or injury to yourself or others. It's easy to sit back and watch a violent movie or play a violent game because that's all you're doing: sitting and watching/playing. It's meant to entertain and distract you from the real world, nothing else. But I think about when I've been in some tense or violent situations, I'm actually kind of cowardly. Hell, I was so upset from seeing a cat hit by a car just outside work once that I had to take the rest of the day off. There was nothing sensational about it.
Yet, when I play video games, I can cut through huge swaths of enemies without feeling anything. Or say I'm supposed to do something sneaky in, say, Assassin's Creed: I'll just take the direct approach, fighting as many as possible just to get through it. It's empowering, in fact. I've never felt empowered in real life situations, though I don't have many situations to go by. Never encountered anyone with a knife or a gun, for example.
I think we need to remember that Fade said:
Like I said in my earlier post, different kids process of violence they see differently. That fantasy violence seems to be registering in a way with his kids and his friends that he finds worrisome, I think he's doing a good job as a parent taking note of it. There are times where you can't just assume that kids can make the disconnection between the two. I think there has been too many instances where we just write these things off and it turns out to be something bad in the end. It's better to step in and double check then just assume that all experiences will be like your own.
If that's the case, then 1. he doesn't know that it's the cause, just an assumption, 2. shouldn't be applying it as a general rule, and 3. we're not the ones he should be talking to about it. As with others in this thread, my parents talked to me about this stuff. Not at length like they probably should have--Mom: "Hey honey, you know this isn't real/how it really works?" "Yup." "Okay."--but still, there was a dialogue.
I loved the show Movie Magic. It was part of the reason I wanted to be a movie director when I was a kid and why Stan Winston was as close as I came to having a childhood hero. It's amazing what people had to do for special effects before CGI took over.
Speaking of which, CGI blood--people can tell and it really numbs the effect it would have in a horror movie. There are people who can watch blood splatter by the gallon in a movie, but still faint if they see a few drops in real life.[DOUBLEPOST=1411822363,1411822282][/DOUBLEPOST]
450 replies since mid-August ... damn, she is a machine. Good for her.
So does that make her a sore winner or a sore loser?
I don't understand the question.
Calloused.