Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

[Necronic]

National debt is a problem, it really is. And it's going to get worse with the boomers retiring and our consistent defunding of important economic reinvestment tools like universities. On the other hand we're still in a good position to be ahead of nearlty every other 1st world country in terms of our economy, so as long as we don't screw ourselves on education we should be ok.

As for the ad-hominem, in fairness that wasn't meant to be pointed at you, but all straight white men out there, including myself. It's hard to appreciate how much better things have gotten for the nation as a whole when almost none of it affected you personally, or if it did it affected you negatively (in cases where the increased power of minorities has allowed them more stake in some zero-sum game).

 

[Terrik]

National debt is a problem, it really is. And it's going to get worse with the boomers retiring and our consistent defunding of important economic reinvestment tools like universities. On the other hand we're still in a good position to be ahead of nearlty every other 1st world country in terms of our economy, so as long as we don't screw ourselves on education we should be ok.

As for the ad-hominem, in fairness that wasn't meant to be pointed at you, but all straight white men out there, including myself. It's hard to appreciate how much better things have gotten for the nation as a whole when almost none of it affected you personally, or if it did it affected you negatively (in cases where the increased power of minorities has allowed them more stake in some zero-sum game).

Oh, I guess we'll be fine then

 

[Necronic]

Well, that's why you shouldn't vote republican.

 

[GasBandit]

Or democrat.

 

[Necronic]

Nah, say what you will about democrats but they at least know the value of a college education.

 

[Terrik]

Vote for this guy?

[DOUBLEPOST=1428954380,1428954329][/DOUBLEPOST]

Nah, say what you will about democrats but they at least know the value of a college education.

They sure do. It's about 20K+ per year semester.

 

[GasBandit]

Nah, say what you will about democrats but they at least know the value of a college education.

They also know the value of teaching the underclass absolutely no skills to survive as adults pre-college. Because it might hurt their feelings.

 

[Necronic]

It's (tuition) way too much. A large part of that is because republican state congresses have chosen to cut funding for their universities at the behest of their self-serving baby boomer electorate. Other problems can be sourced to NCAA unnecessarily running up costs at universities. Other increases are due to the inherently more expensive nature of education these days (computers and whatnot)[DOUBLEPOST=1428954644,1428954571][/DOUBLEPOST]

They also know the value of teaching the underclass absolutely no skills to survive as adults pre-college. Because it might hurt their feelings.

I can't say that I'm a fan of what democrats have done with primary education, but if I had to choose between common core and a generation of home-schooled creationists I know where I'll lay my hopes and dreams.

 

[Terrik]

It's (tuition) way too much. A large part of that is because republican state congresses have chosen to cut funding for their universities at the behest of their self-serving baby boomer electorate. Other problems can be sourced to NCAA unnecessarily running up costs at universities. Other increases are due to the inherently more expensive nature of education these days (computers and whatnot)[DOUBLEPOST=1428954644,1428954571][/DOUBLEPOST]

I can't say that I'm a fan of what democrats have done with primary education, but if I had to choose between common core and a generation of home-schooled creationists I know where I'll lay my hopes and dreams.

Except it doesn't have to be that one choice or the other.

 

[Covar]

Except it doesn't have to be that one choice or the other.

It does if your a democrat

Your two party power doesn't work if you don't turn everything into a binary choice

 

[Necronic]

Well yeah I could huff spraypaint in my garage, but what would that solve?

 

[GasBandit]

It's (tuition) way too much. A large part of that is because republican state congresses have chosen to cut funding for their universities at the behest of their self-serving baby boomer electorate. Other problems can be sourced to NCAA unnecessarily running up costs at universities. Other increases are due to the inherently more expensive nature of education these days (computers and whatnot)

It's also a symptom of the systemic disconnect we now have about the cost of something because we no longer pay for it. Health care? Even before Obamacare, the numbers on the bill are meaningless because whatever the bill says, we've been taught that's the insurance company's problem to pay, and it's our employer's problem to provide us the insurance. You read stories several times a year about people who need surgery and go shopping for it with cash and magically find hospitals willing to do the procedure at 10% normal cost so long as it is paid in cash up front. It's the same with education - it long ago passed out of the realm of middle class affordability, so no matter how much it costs, the number is meaningless because federally insured loans pick up the tab. Then, of course, you're out in that 15% unemployment I was talking about with a 6 figure stafford loan that is now all of a sudden accruing interest and a degree in underwater basket weaving.

I can't say that I'm a fan of what democrats have done with primary education, but if I had to choose between common core and a generation of home-schooled creationists I know where I'll lay my hopes and dreams.

Just because (A) is awful doesn't mean (B) isn't also awful. And again, there with the false dichotomy.

 

[Necronic]

The whole healthcare system is riddled with moral hazard. I hate to say it but I don't see a way around that other than a single payer system. We already spend more tax dollars per capita than most single payer systems.

Also, for the A and B choice, their awfulness is orthoganal, and I am way more willing to accept one awfulness vector than the other.[DOUBLEPOST=1428956570,1428956281][/DOUBLEPOST]To clarify. The homeschool creationist movement is (often) doing a good job of teaching but it's including things that are very wrong and should not be taught in a government sponsored setting. The public school is teaching things that are right but just teaching them poorly. I would rather take the latter than the former, because one can be fixed.

 

[Terrik]

The whole healthcare system is riddled with moral hazard. I hate to say it but I don't see a way around that other than a single payer system. We already spend more tax dollars per capita than most single payer systems.

Also, for the A and B choice, their awfulness is orthoganal, and I am way more willing to accept one awfulness vector than the other.[DOUBLEPOST=1428956570,1428956281][/DOUBLEPOST]To clarify. The homeschool creationist movement is teachin thigs that are wrong and dangerous. The public school is teaching things that are right but just teaching them poorly.

The homes school creationist movement is a drop in a lake. The public school system affects millions and will affect student's entire education track and competitiveness on a massive scale.

 

[Necronic]

Blerg. I edited my comment while you were quoting it. But my point still stands. If republicans had their way you would see a lot of expansion of the homeschool world and a lot of support to dangerous stuff like the quiverfull movement. American exceptionalism is something that is earned every day, and the only way we can maintain it is by maintaining and improving our public school system, not by abandoning it to the loonies.

Ed: And to be clear. Good homeschooling is vastly superior to public schools, I think it will always be this way. But there is a lot of bad homeschooling out there, and the only way we can actually maintain good homeschooling is with....wait for it....government oversight, which puts us right back into the same place we started.

 

[GasBandit]

The whole healthcare system is riddled with moral hazard. I hate to say it but I don't see a way around that other than a single payer system. We already spend more tax dollars per capita than most single payer systems.

That was by design. They spent years wrecking the healthcare system with central planning, then blamed it on capitalism so they could go full blown socialist. I do, however, understand it is an inevitability at this point. It's just one more paving stone on the road to collapse we're rolling down.

To clarify. The homeschool creationist movement is (often) doing a good job of teaching but it's including things that are very wrong and should not be taught in a government sponsored setting. The public school is teaching things that are right but just teaching them poorly. I would rather take the latter than the former, because one can be fixed.

No, they're teaching poorly ALSO by design to create a permanent dependent underclass, complete with "surrender to authority, no property is private" life lessons from day one. They send a list of supplies for every parent to buy their student at the start of the school year. Student arrives with their filled list, and the teacher then confiscates everyone's school supplies to redistribute over the course of the year as the teacher deems they are needed. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. What's yours isn't yours, it's everyone's, and don't question the authority figure that takes your stuff. Also, pledge allegiance to that flag. Do it or face disciplinary action and the ostracism of your peers. The entire shebang is a horrific mishmash tug-of-war between John Dewey's attempts to eradicate the individual in favor of the collective and the Rockefeller institute's need for dullard worker drones. Don't teach the kids to think and reason for themselves, tell them what you want them to know and make them repeat it verbatim.

 

[Necronic]

good story on this kind of homeschooling here.

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/10/how_christian_fundamentalist_homeschooling_damages_children_partner/

sorry it's Salon, but it's actually decently well written.[DOUBLEPOST=1428957383,1428957324][/DOUBLEPOST]

No, they're teaching poorly ALSO by design to create a permanent dependent underclass, complete with "surrender to authority, no property is private" life lessons from day one. They send a list of supplies for every parent to buy their student at the start of the school year. Student arrives with their filled list, and the teacher then confiscates everyone's school supplies to redistribute over the course of the year as the teacher deems they are needed. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. What's yours isn't yours, it's everyone's, and don't question the authority figure that takes your stuff. Also, pledge allegiance to that flag. Do it or face disciplinary action and the ostracism of your peers. The entire shebang is a horrific mishmash tug-of-war between John Dewey's attempts to eradicate the individual in favor of the collective and the Rockefeller institute's need for dullard worker drones. Don't teach the kids to think and reason for themselves, tell them what you want them to know and make them repeat it verbatim.

Dude do you really believe this stuff you say?

 

[GasBandit]

Dude do you really believe this stuff you say?

Sending a kid to public school is tantamount to child abuse.

 

[Necronic]

Yeah, I think that is pretty insulting to anyone who knows what real child abuse is.

 

[GasBandit]

“I've noticed a fascinating phenomenon in my thirty years of teaching: schools and schooling are increasingly irrelevant to the great enterprises of the planet. No one believes anymore that scientists are trained in science classes or politicians in civics classes or poets in English classes. The truth is that schools don't really teach anything except how to obey orders. This is a great mystery to me because thousands of humane, caring people work in schools as teachers and aides and administrators, but the abstract logic of the institution overwhelms their individual contributions. Although teachers to care and do work very, very hard, the institution is psychopathic -- it has no conscience. It rings a bell and the young man in the middle of writing a poem must close his notebook and move to a different cell.”
― John Taylor Gatto, New York City Teacher of the Year 1989, 1990, and 1991, NY State teacher of the year 1991, Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling [DOUBLEPOST=1428957905,1428957830][/DOUBLEPOST]

Yeah, I think that is pretty insulting to anyone who knows what real child abuse is.

Is it doing something that ensures your child will be stupider and duller than they should be, never live up to their potential, socially and intellectually stunt them and make the quality of their eventual adult life much worse than it should be? Sounds pretty abusive to me.

 

[PatrThom]

Dude do you really believe this stuff you say?

A better question would be "...is it true?"
And then research/demonstrate whether it is/isn't.

--Patrick

 

[Null]

I think there are still things we can do to salvage this country.

1) repeal Citizens United, so that corporations and the wealthy can no longer create massive political warchests that can then be funneled without disclosure to any given candidate(s), thus completely bypassing many campaign finance restriction designed to inhibit the influence of the wealthy few.

2) restore the Glass-Steagall Act to restore the separation between commercial and investment banking, to prevent one of the primary causes of the 2000's financial crash - investment firms gambling with depositors' funds held in affiliated commercial banks. This is exactly the sort of activity that had led to the crash of 1929, and was in fact the reason for the Banking Act of 1933 to be enacted in the first place.

3) raise the income tax rate on the highest bracket from 39.6% to 45%. Use this additional tax revenue to fund an "American Infrastructure Revitalization Program" in order to repair the badly degraded bridges, tunnels, and utility networks that our nation relies on. This will increase employment, lower costs of maintaining the infrastructure, stimulate industry to provide the materials for said projects, and help prevent disasters like the I-35W Mississippi River Bridge collapse of 2007.

 

[Necronic]

So Gas, what level of math are you educated to? I'm not asking this to be a jerk, but when I hear people saying things like that I assume it's because they have never used any of the kinds of knowledge that actually require serious education, like math or science oriented fields (or darn near anything at the PhD level). Because I have to say, there is no way I could do the stuff I do without a lot of education, and I find it kind of....well...ignorant? when someone says the years I spent studying chemistry and physics and linear optimization and whatnot were "just learning how to take orders". And when I see statements like this:

“No one believes anymore that scientists are trained in science classes or politicians in civics classes or poets in English classes. The truth is that schools don't really teach anything except how to obey orders.

I can only laugh and kind of pity the person making it, because they clearly don't have anything in their head to offer the world that is complicated enough to have required any form of education.

 

[Dei]

I long ago stopped even trying to discuss schooling with GB, it's semi-pointless. As with everything, there are no absolutes.

 

[PatrThom]

I would be interested in hearing from some of our Teacher forumites, so perhaps they can give us insight into what modern-day indoctrination looks like.

--Patrick

 

[Bubble181]

 

[Eriol]

... Are you trying to kick me out of my own thread?

Ya pretty much. At least for the primaries stuff. More generalized back and forth, go nuts, but certain topics really deserve their own thing.

And quite frankly, the less time for the next year and a half I need to spend on threads about USA elections only, the better!

 

[GasBandit]

So Gas, what level of math are you educated to? I'm not asking this to be a jerk, but when I hear people saying things like that I assume it's because they have never used any of the kinds of knowledge that actually require serious education, like math or science oriented fields (or darn near anything at the PhD level). Because I have to say, there is no way I could do the stuff I do without a lot of education, and I find it kind of....well...ignorant? when someone says the years I spent studying chemistry and physics and linear optimization and whatnot were "just learning how to take orders". And when I see statements like this:

I can only laugh and kind of pity the person making it, because they clearly don't have anything in their head to offer the world that is complicated enough to have required any form of education.

Wow, the 4 time New York City teacher of the year doesn't have anything in their head to offer the world that is complicated enough to have required any form of education? But I think the difference here is you're talking about the collegiate level again, whereas I (and Gatto) are referring to public K-12.

Ya pretty much. At least for the primaries stuff. More generalized back and forth, go nuts, but certain topics really deserve their own thing.

And quite frankly, the less time for the next year and a half I need to spend on threads about USA elections only, the better!

 

[AshburnerX]

No, they're teaching poorly ALSO by design to create a permanent dependent underclass, complete with "surrender to authority, no property is private" life lessons from day one. They send a list of supplies for every parent to buy their student at the start of the school year. Student arrives with their filled list, and the teacher then confiscates everyone's school supplies to redistribute over the course of the year as the teacher deems they are needed.

Teachers can't force parents to buy school supplies anymore (or they can't in my district) and they certainly can't sieze such materials from the students without the okay of the parents, so that's patently false. Instead, my mother (a teacher) has to spend at least a few hundred dollars (it's been over $600 this year alone) of her own money every year buying school supplies for all her kids because she only gets $50 a kid and that won't even cover paper and pencils for the year. That's not even going into how much she pays for new teaching material, teaching aids, and just things she needs to operate the classroom. She will never be compensated for this. She can't write this off on her taxes. It's just the cost of the profession... the monetary one at any rate.

 

[Necronic]

Wow, the 4 time New York City teacher of the year doesn't have anything in their head to offer the world that is complicated enough to have required any form of education? But I think the difference here is you're talking about the collegiate level again, whereas I (and Gatto) are referring to public K-12.

Perhaps. But the calculus, chemistry, and physics that I learned in my highschool years were integral to my ability to learn more of it in college. And the trig/algebra I learned in middleschool were integral to the stuff I learned in highschool. This type of education isn't necessary for everyone of course, but if you want to be a true knowledge worker you aren't going to get far without a strong foundation in these things, and they can only reliably be taught in school.

 

[GasBandit]

(or they can't in my district)

Herein lies the rub of a lot of the reason why things don't get fixed. "But MY district is ok." Even down here in Texas the Socialist School Supplies Lesson is happening (or was, last my friends' kids were elementary school aged about 8 years ago). See also below.

Perhaps. But the calculus, chemistry, and physics that I learned in my highschool years were integral to my ability to learn more of it in college. And the trig/algebra I learned in middleschool were integral to the stuff I learned in highschool. This type of education isn't necessary for everyone of course, but if you want to be a true knowledge worker you aren't going to get far without a strong foundation in these things, and they can only reliably be taught in school.

And the quality of the foundation being provided in those things is extremely hit or miss, mostly miss, in public schools. Through a combination of private (Montessori) school and gifted/talented programs in an affluent DC suburb, I was 3 years ahead in math in the 5th grade. Then the military moved my family, I got put in public school with no AP classes at all, crammed back in my "appropriate" grade level courses, and by the time public school was through with me I had to take Calculus 3 times before I passed. I'm just glad my folks learned that lesson and made sure to keep my little brother in private school until he graduated.

 

[Dei]

This is why I enjoy open enrollment in Colorado, but sadly it's not a fix all problem, mainly because if you don't go to the school you are"assigned", you can't get a bus, which is very inconvenient to families where both parents work. I'm just glad my son's middle school started offering after school child care this year, because otherwise I would have lost my mind trying to pick both kids up at once.

 

[AshburnerX]

Herein lies the rub of a lot of the reason why things don't get fixed. "But MY district is ok." Even down here in Texas the Socialist School Supplies Lesson is happening (or was, last my friends' kids were elementary school aged about 8 years ago). See also below.

This is actually a State Government thing, not a district thing. Basically, many State Supreme Courts have decided that once a community has decided that certain things are considered an "essential part of the school experience", these things must be provided by the state. As such, school supplies must be provided by the state in these states... except since teachers make their own curriculum (around state and federal guidelines) and only receive the must minimum of funding, this means teachers are forced into one of two choices:

- Work around their budget and provide their students with a substandard educational experience (which will surely get the teacher fired)
or
- Buy everything else out of their own pocket

The only reason I can think of why it might be a thing in your state (and it might not be anymore) is that no one has taken it to court yet.

 

[Tress]

Wait, am I allowed to steal shit from my students now? I had no idea.

Also, I rarely have to use my bullwhip to get kids to say the pledge of allegiance these days. Most of them start twitching and then say it on their own by the time that March rolls around. I only had to savagely torture 4 kids today, so it was a good day. Between that and the lessons on how to obey (we don't really study history any more, we just tell them that 2+2=5 and beat anyone who says otherwise), it's been a quiet day.

 

[Dei]

I will say kids are expected to buy a ton of pencils and markers and those kinds of things to put in a class pile in the hopes there is enough to last the year (it usually isn't), but things like notebooks and folders and the like are the student's to keep so they can personalize them. I really don't consider that socialism, because I've seen kids go through pencils just in my own house so I'm pretty sure my children are getting every single pencil back at some point.