Paris attack (November 2015)
- Thread starter strawman
- Start date
Are we sure this is ISIS and not another terorrist group?
Zappit
Staff member
If not ISIS, then ISIS inspired. Claims came quickly this was retaliation for the drone strike on Jihad John, or whatever his name was, and witnesses that survived the carnage heard the shooters talking about Syria and Iraq. These might be ISIS wannabes, but they were well armed and organized. They had to have been trained and supplied somewhere.
This is fucking awful.
More like the third one, sadly. This is dredging up some bad memories back home.
Spain: 11-M (191 dead, 2050 injured, train bombings)
UK: 7/7 (52 dead, 700-ish injured, public transportation bombings)
France has nukes.
Seriously. If nobody's thinking of this in the possibility space, then you're not thinking about it realistically. If they lose their shit, you never know.
As for "any means necessary" until that means at the least "ground troops" then it's just lip service. You want to deal with less refugees? Then stop the war in the countries that are producing them. Do you hear about refugees from Croatia, Serbia, etc? No? That's because the civil war ENDED decades ago.
Until you're willing to spill blood to eliminate ISIL/ISIS, they're not going to stop.
This only shows you don't live in Europe. We do still have plenty of mostly Serbian and kosovar refugees - though obviously not as many.
"Boots on the ground" won't necessarily solve anything. Iraq's the second biggest source of refugees and Afghanistan is in the top 5 as well. Remind me what the two last countries were where the US got involved with ground troops?
The problem isn't necessarily people from "there" blowing themselves up "here". It's people from here feeling repressed or excluded, radicalizing, going over there and coming back. Madrid, London, Paris, the terrorists were mostly born in Western Europe every time.
You definitely have some good points, though my point isn't about how leaving failed states is a good thing (it's really bad), but that active war will definitely keep producing refugees, so anything that keeps that going longer (ie: half-assed bombing campaigns, rather than saying "we're going to war, they're getting destroyed as fast as we know how) will keep producing them.
That's actually fairly different than the whole "why are these ideologies gaining ground in the first place?" question that you're posing. That results in the local/domestic terrorism. They're related, in that the war in Syria/Iraq is causing a mass migration that allows more of the (very few) bad actors across, but both problems are at the forefront right now. Related, but not the same cause/effect.
For the ideology problem, here's one perspective from a prominent Muslim woman (Google her, she isn't a new actor, or just an opinion columnist) in Canada: http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/15/connect-the-dots-to-get-to-the-root-of-terrorism
Belgium's being named more and more as the center of action - these actions, the Thalys attacker, a series of planned attacks similar to today"s that were thwarted by Belgian security, Trabelski's bombing a few years back,....all started off in Sint-Jans-Molenbeek.
Thing is, part of the people responsible for this attack were known to Belgian internal security and homeland...But those weren't allowed to follow them more closely because of political reasons. I know nobody's interested in internal Belgian political affairs - and those who are, usually get most of their information from easier to read sources, therefor the French media, therefor, horribly biased (not saying the Dutch media are less biased, but it's in another direction
), and don't understand properly either.... It's just horrible that, at least in part, these attacks were able to take place not because of a failure of our security, but because of political bickering of a level equivalent to "Republican mayor won't allow Democrat governor to order a house search in his town" (or switch around the parties of you feel offended one way or the other). One can hope this would cause a few things to move in Belgian politics, but both sides have already claimed the offense is the other side's alone. Le sigh.
Thing is, part of the people responsible for this attack were known to Belgian internal security and homeland...But those weren't allowed to follow them more closely because of political reasons. I know nobody's interested in internal Belgian political affairs - and those who are, usually get most of their information from easier to read sources, therefor the French media, therefor, horribly biased (not saying the Dutch media are less biased, but it's in another direction
), and don't understand properly either.... It's just horrible that, at least in part, these attacks were able to take place not because of a failure of our security, but because of political bickering of a level equivalent to "Republican mayor won't allow Democrat governor to order a house search in his town" (or switch around the parties of you feel offended one way or the other). One can hope this would cause a few things to move in Belgian politics, but both sides have already claimed the offense is the other side's alone. Le sigh.
In response to this attack France has bombed the heck out of a certain town, conducted some 150 raids on people and suspected terrorists internally, and several states in the US which previously started the process of accepting refugees are halting that process. Individuals and groups are attacking muslims, there's apparently a CCTV video of someone pushing a muslim woman in front of a train today.
Of course a lot of this can be blamed on US actions in the mideast, not just in the last two decades, but over the last century, and not just the US but all the various world powers and empires.
I read an interesting article where a reporter interviews several ISIS fighters in prison, and finds they are largely the same - they aren't fighting for their religion, they have a wife and kids and no job, and are fighting essentially to support themselves. Reminds me of a lot of other terrorists elsewhere - no jobs, no food, terrorists force you to fight.
On the one hand I want to make a lion king "circle of life" parody, "circle of war", but on the other hand it's too depressing to think about.
Of course a lot of this can be blamed on US actions in the mideast, not just in the last two decades, but over the last century, and not just the US but all the various world powers and empires.
I read an interesting article where a reporter interviews several ISIS fighters in prison, and finds they are largely the same - they aren't fighting for their religion, they have a wife and kids and no job, and are fighting essentially to support themselves. Reminds me of a lot of other terrorists elsewhere - no jobs, no food, terrorists force you to fight.
On the one hand I want to make a lion king "circle of life" parody, "circle of war", but on the other hand it's too depressing to think about.
Don't forget the waffles.[DOUBLEPOST=1447708193,1447708083][/DOUBLEPOST]
Alabama an Michigan....Considering the whole of the US accepted 1.800 Syrian refugees in the last year, whereas Belgium accepted around 20.000 (just comparing Syrians), and Germany accepted somewhere around 800.000....I don't think this is going to have much of an impact on the immigration crisis
Bringing people into other countries will not have an impact until we are importing tens of millions each year, because that's how fast populations are growing in disadvantaged areas. a few tens of thousands will never have any significant impact - except on those people actually moved.I don't think this is going to have much of an impact on the immigration crisis
The reaction, however, is still a negative and blaming one. The reality is that nothing you do is ever "safe enough" if your expected level of safety is 100%. Cue "those give up liberty to gain safety deserve neither" quote.
Our society in the US has really gone off the deep end with the idea that we can attain a perfect safety simply through more diligence. We have attempts at reduction of free speech in college so the students can live in a "safe space" where they are guaranteed not to encounter ideas they might not like. We've got "gun free" zones with no real methods to prevent gun entry. We've accepted that every call, every web search, every bank transfer, etc in the US has certain data recorded for an unlimited duration and placed under the control of a single authority that has no limits. The list goes on.
And the violence continues, and the people try to crack down further and strike back, and the violence continues.
It's like we could extract something useful from this, if only we could find it.
--Patrick
Clearly, we need more violence.
Yes, but only directed against the really violent people.Clearly, we need more violence.
--Patrick
You mean the other guys, right?
Minister of the Interior at 10:40 PM in the news: "the football match between Belgium and Spain will absolutely definitely go ahead as planned, with some extra security measures."
Minister of the Interior at 11:30 PM in a press release pretty much nobody will have the opportunity to read and will cause all newspapers and so on to have to re-order everything: "Because of the terrorist threat, the football match has been cancelled."
Oy, what, was there a sudden increase in terrorism in less than an hour's time? No? Were you already considering cancelling it? Then don't use "definitely", "most assuredly", or "absolutely" in your statements in the news, it makes you look like the incompetent baboon you are.
Minister of the Interior at 11:30 PM in a press release pretty much nobody will have the opportunity to read and will cause all newspapers and so on to have to re-order everything: "Because of the terrorist threat, the football match has been cancelled."
Oy, what, was there a sudden increase in terrorism in less than an hour's time? No? Were you already considering cancelling it? Then don't use "definitely", "most assuredly", or "absolutely" in your statements in the news, it makes you look like the incompetent baboon you are.
The otter guys will never be defeated.
--Patrick
GasBandit
Staff member
A view of one of the shields used by the police in assaulting the Bataclan Theater
A remarkable number of hits on the shield. Commentary is indicating these were not amateur terrorists, they were trained, organized, competent with their weapons and had an obvious plan to stick to.
In other words, these were not mere zealots going postal, these were basically soldiers.
A remarkable number of hits on the shield. Commentary is indicating these were not amateur terrorists, they were trained, organized, competent with their weapons and had an obvious plan to stick to.
In other words, these were not mere zealots going postal, these were basically soldiers.
"Hello and bonjour Syriah refugees! We have nuked Syriah and Iraq off the map, so there are definitely no terrorists there anymore. You can all now return to your home! Yes, there is nothing left either, but everyone can now work to rebuild it, so we have solved any unemployment issues too! No no, the radiation might tickle a bit, but it is not harmful, we promise!"
This was an interesting read: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/17/opinions/isis-no-military-answer-paton-walsh/index.html
Not a "here's the solution" piece, but rather a "every obvious option is kinda bad for these reasons" piece. Which at the least feels honest.
Not a "here's the solution" piece, but rather a "every obvious option is kinda bad for these reasons" piece. Which at the least feels honest.
I swear, the only thing missing are brownshirts (and not the good kind) in the streets beating up people. We've got the leading GOP candidates calling for internement, special IDs , and shuttering of mosques. Gov. Pence of Indiana issued orders today to turn away a refugee family whose accommodation was already arranged.
The stupidsphere is playing right into the hands of ISIL. Not only that, these were their stated goals from the beginning, and we're still doing it.
The stupidsphere is playing right into the hands of ISIL. Not only that, these were their stated goals from the beginning, and we're still doing it.
Hawaii doesn't want California to come hang out, just FYI.
That right there is what makes all of this all the worse. It's horrible that western society is doing this, but it makes it double worse that it's just going to create even more enemies who hate the treatment they've seen or received.The stupidsphere is playing right into the hands of ISIL. Not only that, these were their stated goals from the beginning, and we're still doing it.