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Paris attack (November 2015)

Nov 13, 2015#1

strawman

Reports vary, but there may be over 150 already dead due to tonight's attacks.

Nov 13, 2015#2

Zappit

This is Europe's 9/11. Between this and the Russian plane ISIS bombed, it can't go on anymore. Europe will have to become more involved. The world needs to put an end to ISIS by any means necessary.

Nov 13, 2015#3

Emrys

Nov 13, 2015#4

blotsfan

Zappit said:
This is Europe's 9/11. Between this and the Russian plane ISIS bombed, it can't go on anymore. Europe will have to become more involved. The world needs to put an end to ISIS by any means necessary.

Are we sure this is ISIS and not another terorrist group?

Nov 13, 2015#5

strawman

At this point I doubt anyone knows for certain. There are a number of eyewitness reports that suggest certain things, but it's still the middle of the night of the attack, I doubt we can know anything for certain this quickly.

Nov 13, 2015#6

Zappit

blotsfan said:
Are we sure this is ISIS and not another terorrist group?

If not ISIS, then ISIS inspired. Claims came quickly this was retaliation for the drone strike on Jihad John, or whatever his name was, and witnesses that survived the carnage heard the shooters talking about Syria and Iraq. These might be ISIS wannabes, but they were well armed and organized. They had to have been trained and supplied somewhere.

Nov 14, 2015#7

Dave

I had no idea this was going on until like an hour ago. You want help, France, your old friends are here.

Nov 14, 2015#8

Bubble181

IS has claimed the attacks in retaliation for French bombardments in syria. The crusaders will not be allowed to rest and more stuff like that.

150 dead, another 100 in critical condition.

Nov 14, 2015#9

Charlie Don't Surf

This is fucking awful.

Nov 14, 2015#10

Denbrought

Zappit said:
This is Europe's 9/11.

More like the third one, sadly. This is dredging up some bad memories back home.

Spain: 11-M (191 dead, 2050 injured, train bombings)
UK: 7/7 (52 dead, 700-ish injured, public transportation bombings)

Nov 15, 2015#11

Eriol

Zappit said:
The world needs to put an end to ISIS by any means necessary.

France has nukes.

Seriously. If nobody's thinking of this in the possibility space, then you're not thinking about it realistically. If they lose their shit, you never know.

As for "any means necessary" until that means at the least "ground troops" then it's just lip service. You want to deal with less refugees? Then stop the war in the countries that are producing them. Do you hear about refugees from Croatia, Serbia, etc? No? That's because the civil war ENDED decades ago.

Until you're willing to spill blood to eliminate ISIL/ISIS, they're not going to stop.

Nov 15, 2015#12

Charlie Don't Surf

Eriol said:
stop the war in the countries that are producing them.

*nodding in agreement*

Until you're willing to spill blood to eliminate ISIL/ISIS, they're not going to stop.

*record scratch*

Nov 16, 2015#13

Bubble181

Eriol said:
Do you hear about refugees from Croatia, Serbia, etc? No? That's because the civil war ENDED decades ago.

This only shows you don't live in Europe. We do still have plenty of mostly Serbian and kosovar refugees - though obviously not as many.
"Boots on the ground" won't necessarily solve anything. Iraq's the second biggest source of refugees and Afghanistan is in the top 5 as well. Remind me what the two last countries were where the US got involved with ground troops?
The problem isn't necessarily people from "there" blowing themselves up "here". It's people from here feeling repressed or excluded, radicalizing, going over there and coming back. Madrid, London, Paris, the terrorists were mostly born in Western Europe every time.

Nov 16, 2015#14

Eriol

Bubble181 said:
This only shows you don't live in Europe. We do still have plenty of mostly Serbian and kosovar refugees - though obviously not as many.
"Boots on the ground" won't necessarily solve anything. Iraq's the second biggest source of refugees and Afghanistan is in the top 5 as well. Remind me what the two last countries were where the US got involved with ground troops?
The problem isn't necessarily people from "there" blowing themselves up "here". It's people from here feeling repressed or excluded, radicalizing, going over there and coming back. Madrid, London, Paris, the terrorists were mostly born in Western Europe every time.

You definitely have some good points, though my point isn't about how leaving failed states is a good thing (it's really bad), but that active war will definitely keep producing refugees, so anything that keeps that going longer (ie: half-assed bombing campaigns, rather than saying "we're going to war, they're getting destroyed as fast as we know how) will keep producing them.

That's actually fairly different than the whole "why are these ideologies gaining ground in the first place?" question that you're posing. That results in the local/domestic terrorism. They're related, in that the war in Syria/Iraq is causing a mass migration that allows more of the (very few) bad actors across, but both problems are at the forefront right now. Related, but not the same cause/effect.

For the ideology problem, here's one perspective from a prominent Muslim woman (Google her, she isn't a new actor, or just an opinion columnist) in Canada: http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/15/connect-the-dots-to-get-to-the-root-of-terrorism

Nov 16, 2015#15

Dei

Nov 16, 2015#16

Bubble181

Belgium's being named more and more as the center of action - these actions, the Thalys attacker, a series of planned attacks similar to today"s that were thwarted by Belgian security, Trabelski's bombing a few years back,....all started off in Sint-Jans-Molenbeek.
Thing is, part of the people responsible for this attack were known to Belgian internal security and homeland...But those weren't allowed to follow them more closely because of political reasons. I know nobody's interested in internal Belgian political affairs - and those who are, usually get most of their information from easier to read sources, therefor the French media, therefor, horribly biased (not saying the Dutch media are less biased, but it's in another direction

), and don't understand properly either.... It's just horrible that, at least in part, these attacks were able to take place not because of a failure of our security, but because of political bickering of a level equivalent to "Republican mayor won't allow Democrat governor to order a house search in his town" (or switch around the parties of you feel offended one way or the other). One can hope this would cause a few things to move in Belgian politics, but both sides have already claimed the offense is the other side's alone. Le sigh.

Nov 16, 2015#17

Bubble181

Telegraph

Financial Times

Politico

Nov 16, 2015#18

PatrThom

Belgium. Source of chocolate, beer, and Terrorism.
EDIT: And waffles.

--Patrick

Nov 16, 2015#19

strawman

In response to this attack France has bombed the heck out of a certain town, conducted some 150 raids on people and suspected terrorists internally, and several states in the US which previously started the process of accepting refugees are halting that process. Individuals and groups are attacking muslims, there's apparently a CCTV video of someone pushing a muslim woman in front of a train today.

Of course a lot of this can be blamed on US actions in the mideast, not just in the last two decades, but over the last century, and not just the US but all the various world powers and empires.

I read an interesting article where a reporter interviews several ISIS fighters in prison, and finds they are largely the same - they aren't fighting for their religion, they have a wife and kids and no job, and are fighting essentially to support themselves. Reminds me of a lot of other terrorists elsewhere - no jobs, no food, terrorists force you to fight.

On the one hand I want to make a lion king "circle of life" parody, "circle of war", but on the other hand it's too depressing to think about.

Nov 16, 2015#20

Bubble181

PatrThom said:
Belgium. Source of chocolate, beer, and Terrorism.

--Patrick

Don't forget the waffles.[DOUBLEPOST=1447708193,1447708083][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:
several states in the US which previously started the process of accepting refugees are halting that process.

Alabama an Michigan....Considering the whole of the US accepted 1.800 Syrian refugees in the last year, whereas Belgium accepted around 20.000 (just comparing Syrians), and Germany accepted somewhere around 800.000....I don't think this is going to have much of an impact on the immigration crisis

Nov 16, 2015#21

strawman

Bubble181 said:
I don't think this is going to have much of an impact on the immigration crisis

Bringing people into other countries will not have an impact until we are importing tens of millions each year, because that's how fast populations are growing in disadvantaged areas. a few tens of thousands will never have any significant impact - except on those people actually moved.

The reaction, however, is still a negative and blaming one. The reality is that nothing you do is ever "safe enough" if your expected level of safety is 100%. Cue "those give up liberty to gain safety deserve neither" quote.

Our society in the US has really gone off the deep end with the idea that we can attain a perfect safety simply through more diligence. We have attempts at reduction of free speech in college so the students can live in a "safe space" where they are guaranteed not to encounter ideas they might not like. We've got "gun free" zones with no real methods to prevent gun entry. We've accepted that every call, every web search, every bank transfer, etc in the US has certain data recorded for an unlimited duration and placed under the control of a single authority that has no limits. The list goes on.

And the violence continues, and the people try to crack down further and strike back, and the violence continues.

Nov 16, 2015#22

PatrThom

stienman said:
And the violence continues, and the people try to crack down further and strike back, and the violence continues.

It's like we could extract something useful from this, if only we could find it.

--Patrick

Nov 16, 2015#23

Bubble181

PatrThom said:
It's like we could extract something useful from this, if only we could find it.

--Patrick

Clearly, we need more violence.

Nov 16, 2015#24

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
Clearly, we need more violence.

Yes, but only directed against the really violent people.

--Patrick

Nov 16, 2015#25

Bubble181

PatrThom said:
Yes, but only directed against the really violent people.

--Patrick

You mean the other guys, right?

Nov 16, 2015#26

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
You mean the other guys, right?

--Patrick

Nov 16, 2015#27

Bubble181

Minister of the Interior at 10:40 PM in the news: "the football match between Belgium and Spain will absolutely definitely go ahead as planned, with some extra security measures."
Minister of the Interior at 11:30 PM in a press release pretty much nobody will have the opportunity to read and will cause all newspapers and so on to have to re-order everything: "Because of the terrorist threat, the football match has been cancelled."

Oy, what, was there a sudden increase in terrorism in less than an hour's time? No? Were you already considering cancelling it? Then don't use "definitely", "most assuredly", or "absolutely" in your statements in the news, it makes you look like the incompetent baboon you are.

Nov 16, 2015#28

Emrys

PatrThom said:
--Patrick

The otter guys will never be defeated.

Nov 17, 2015#29

GasBandit

A view of one of the shields used by the police in assaulting the Bataclan Theater

A remarkable number of hits on the shield. Commentary is indicating these were not amateur terrorists, they were trained, organized, competent with their weapons and had an obvious plan to stick to.

In other words, these were not mere zealots going postal, these were basically soldiers.

Nov 17, 2015#30

Jax

Eriol said:
France has nukes.

Seriously. If nobody's thinking of this in the possibility space, then you're not thinking about it realistically. If they lose their shit, you never know.

"Hello and bonjour Syriah refugees! We have nuked Syriah and Iraq off the map, so there are definitely no terrorists there anymore. You can all now return to your home! Yes, there is nothing left either, but everyone can now work to rebuild it, so we have solved any unemployment issues too! No no, the radiation might tickle a bit, but it is not harmful, we promise!"

Nov 17, 2015#31

Eriol

This was an interesting read: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/17/opinions/isis-no-military-answer-paton-walsh/index.html

Not a "here's the solution" piece, but rather a "every obvious option is kinda bad for these reasons" piece. Which at the least feels honest.

Nov 18, 2015#32

Denbrought

Jax said:
"Hello and bonjour Syriah refugees! We have nuked Syriah and Iraq off the map, so there are definitely no terrorists there anymore. You can all now return to your home! Yes, there is nothing left either, but everyone can now work to rebuild it, so we have solved any unemployment issues too! No no, the radiation might tickle a bit, but it is not harmful, we promise!"

Relevant video? @DarkAudit reminded me this existed

Nov 19, 2015#33

DarkAudit

I swear, the only thing missing are brownshirts (and not the good kind) in the streets beating up people. We've got the leading GOP candidates calling for internement, special IDs , and shuttering of mosques. Gov. Pence of Indiana issued orders today to turn away a refugee family whose accommodation was already arranged.

The stupidsphere is playing right into the hands of ISIL. Not only that, these were their stated goals from the beginning, and we're still doing it.

Nov 19, 2015#34

WasabiPoptart

Denbrought said:
Relevant video? @DarkAudit reminded me this existed

Hawaii doesn't want California to come hang out, just FYI.

Nov 19, 2015#35

ThatNickGuy

DarkAudit said:
The stupidsphere is playing right into the hands of ISIL. Not only that, these were their stated goals from the beginning, and we're still doing it.

That right there is what makes all of this all the worse. It's horrible that western society is doing this, but it makes it double worse that it's just going to create even more enemies who hate the treatment they've seen or received.

Nov 20, 2015#36

Tress

WasabiPoptart said:
Hawaii doesn't want California to come hang out, just FYI.

Nov 20, 2015#37

PatrThom

Oh hey, after the recent events, looks like France is Doing Something About It.

France is bringing in new legislation extending the country's temporary state of emergency to three months. The new laws also grant the authorities new powers to carry out searches of seized devices and to block websites. Under the legislation, police searches of digital equipment are no longer limited to the device itself. Instead, they may also extend to include any data that is "accessible from the initial system or available for the initial system" [...] this means police may use seized devices in order to search for "any type of information on any type of electronic device of any French resident and especially any information available via usernames, passwords collected during a police search, any content stored online."

Please, France. Please learn from our mistakes.

--Patrick

Nov 21, 2015#38

Bubble181

In Brussels terror level has been raised to the maximum. Malls closed, all events cancelled, football matches cancelled, public transportation doesn't run, military everywhere. Great way to let the terrorists win. Bleh

Nov 21, 2015#39

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
In Brussels terror level has been raised to the maximum. Malls closed, all events cancelled, football matches cancelled, public transportation doesn't run, military everywhere. Great way to let the terrorists win. Bleh

I saw an infographic on imgur the other day that purportedly showed Belgium as having the most foreign terrorists present per capita.

Nov 21, 2015#40

Bubble181

Yup. Highest amount of syria warriors. Lovely place, Brussels right now.

Nov 23, 2015#41

Bubble181

N Europe

Figaro

BBC

The Guardian

Twitter

Belgians were asked not to communicate about the police raids yesterday (19 houses searched, 16 arrests). The hashtag @#BrusselsLockdown was....repurposed to something more useful.

Nov 23, 2015#42

Dave

Great. One of the terrorists were outed as having come in as a refugee. The rest were all nationals, but this will fuel the idiocy in the states.

Nov 23, 2015#43

blotsfan

Look, its not the refugees that are the issue. Its that we have any muslims at all thats the problem.

Nov 24, 2015#44

Jax

Do refugees go to the US? I've only heard of them fleeing to other countries in the Middle East and Europe

Nov 24, 2015#45

strawman

Jax said:
Do refugees go to the US? I've only heard of them fleeing to other countries in the Middle East and Europe

The US accepts more refugees yearly than any other country in the world. 30k per year on the low end, and 2015 fiscal year we accepted near 70k.

Refugees cannot choose where they'll be resettled. Their preference is noted, and if they already have relatives in a specific country they have a slight edge on going there, but otherwise when you apply for refugee resettlement you accept the decision of the committee to resettle where they place you.

The country accepting you pays for your travel, but you promise to pay them back over time. You're expected to find work and not only support yourself and family, but pay back the costs incurred when you sought asylum.

There's a lot more to this I learned recently in this post:

[DOUBLEPOST=1448374333,1448374245][/DOUBLEPOST]And in case that link doesn't work, here's the post from Scott Hicks:

Most of my friends know I practice Immigration law. As such, I have worked with the refugee community for over two decades. This post is long, but if you want actual information about the process, keep reading.
I can not tell you how frustrating it is to see the misinformation and outright lies that are being perpetuated about the refugee process and the Syrian refugees. So, here is a bit of information from the real world of someone who actually works and deals with this issue.
The refugee screening process is multi-layered and is very difficult to get through. Most people languish in temporary camps for months to years while their story is evaluated and checked.
First, you do not get to choose what country you might be resettled into. If you already have family (legal) in a country, that makes it more likely that you will go there to be with family, but other than that it is random. So, you can not simply walk into a refugee camp, show a document, and say, I want to go to America. Instead, the UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees) works with the local authorities to try to take care of basic needs. Once the person/family is registered to receive basic necessities, they can be processed for resettlement. Many people are not interested in resettlement as they hope to return to their country and are hoping that the turmoil they fled will be resolved soon. In fact, most refugees in refugee events never resettle to a third country. Those that do want to resettle have to go through an extensive process.
Resettlement in the U.S. is a long process and takes many steps. The Refugee Admissions Program is jointly administered by the Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration (PRM) in the Department of State, the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and offices within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) within DHS conducts refugee interviews and determines individual eligibility for refugee status in the United States.
We evaluate refugees on a tiered system with three levels of priority.
First Priority are people who have suffered compelling persecution or for whom no other durable solution exists. These individuals are referred to the United States by UNHCR, or they are identified by the U.S. embassy or a non-governmental organization (NGO).
Second priority are groups of “special concern” to the United States. The Department of State determines these groups, with input from USCIS, UNHCR, and designated NGOs. At present, we prioritize certain persons from the former Soviet Union, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Iran, Burma, and Bhutan.
Third priority are relatives of refugees (parents, spouses, and unmarried children under 21) who are already settled in the United States may be admitted as refugees. The U.S.-based relative must file an Affidavit of Relationship (AOR) and must be processed by DHS.
Before being allowed to come to the United States, each refugee must undergo an extensive interviewing, screening, and security clearance process conducted by Regional Refugee Coordinators and overseas Resettlement Support Centers (RSCs). Individuals generally must not already be firmly resettled (a legal term of art that would be a separate article). Just because one falls into the three priorities above does not guarantee admission to the United States.
The Immigration laws require that the individuals prove that they have a “well-founded fear,” (another legal term which would be a book.) This fear must be proved regardless of the person’s country, circumstance, or classification in a priority category. There are multiple interviews and people are challenged on discrepancies. I had a client who was not telling the truth on her age and the agency challenged her on it. Refugees are not simply admitted because they have a well founded fear. They still must show that they are not subject to exclusion under Section 212(a) of the INA. These grounds include serious health matters, moral or criminal matters, as well as security issues. In addition, they can be excluded for such things as polygamy, misrepresentation of facts on visa applications, smuggling, or previous deportations. Under some circumstances, the person may be eligible to have the ground waived.
At this point, a refugee can be conditionally accepted for resettlement. Then, the RSC sends a request for assurance of placement to the United States, and the Refugee Processing Center (RPC) works with private voluntary agencies (VOLAG) to determine where the refugee will live. If the refugee does have family in the U.S., efforts will be made to resettle close to that family.
Every person accepted as a refugee for planned admission to the United States is conditional upon passing a medical examination and passing all security checks. Frankly, there is more screening of refugees than ever happens to get on an airplane. Of course, yes, no system can be 100% foolproof. But if that is your standard, then you better shut down the entire airline industry, close the borders, and stop all international commerce and shipping. Every one of those has been the source of entry of people and are much easier ways to gain access to the U.S. Only upon passing all of these checks (which involve basically every agency of the government involved in terrorist identification) can the person actually be approved to travel.
Before departing, refugees sign a promissory note to repay the United States for their travel costs. This travel loan is an interest-free loan that refugees begin to pay back six months after arriving in the country.
Once the VOLAG is notified of the travel plans, it must arrange for the reception of refugees at the airport and transportation to their housing at their final destination.
This process from start to finish averages 18 to 24 months, but I have seen it take years.
The reality is that about half of the refugees are children, another quarter are elderly. Almost all of the adults are either moms or couples coming with children. Each year the President, in consultation with Congress, determines the numerical ceiling for refugee admissions. For Fiscal Year (FY) 2016, the proposed ceiling is 85,000. We have been averaging about 70,000 a year for the last number of years. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)
Over one-third of all refugee arrivals (35.1 percent, or 24,579) in FY 2015 came from the Near East/South Asia—a region that includes Iraq, Iran, Bhutan, and Afghanistan.
Another third of all refugee arrivals (32.1 percent, or 22,472) in FY 2015 came from Africa.
Over a quarter of all refugee arrivals (26.4 percent, or 18,469) in FY 2015 came from East Asia — a region that includes China, Vietnam, and Indonesia. (Source: Refugee Processing Center)
Finally, the process in Europe is different. I would be much more concerned that terrorists are infiltrating the European system because they are not nearly so extensive and thorough in their process.

Nov 24, 2015#46

DarkAudit

The short short version: it's far, far harder to get into the US as a refugee than it is to be a governor, senator, or Congressperson.

Nov 24, 2015#47

Jax

Sorry, I forgot to specify that I meant Syriah refugees, I don't know if the number you mentioned was specific to those, Stienman?

Anyways, Germany has accepted around 66k (out of a total of about 150k) refugees for the first six months of 2015 alone, and Europe in total has had nearly 400k refugee applicants for the first half of 2015 (560k in the whole of 2014). Considering the geographic and demographic aspects between the US and Europe, I'd say that's quite a lot.

Nov 24, 2015#48

strawman

No, and from your numbers it sounds like I may be incorrect about the US taking in the most.

Nov 24, 2015#49

Bubble181

stienman said:
No, and from your numbers it sounds like I may be incorrect about the US taking in the most.

It also depends on your definition of taking in. Turkey has accepted literally millions of Syrian refugees, and Lebanon has several hundred thousand.

Nov 24, 2015#50

strawman

Bubble181 said:
It also depends on your definition of taking in. Turkey has accepted literally millions of Syrian refugees, and Lebanon has several hundred thousand.

Yeah, definitions matter. Adjacent countries get a lot more simply due to access and a lowered definition of "refugee". We could claim that the US has received an estimated 300,000+ mexican refugees per year at its peak between 1995 and 2007 (this has been declining over the last 8 years). They have over twice the number of intentional homocides per year as the US, but less than 1/3 the population of the US - so it would be hard for us to claim that they aren't in sufficient fear of their lives to seek out a less dangerous life.

Another factor is that a lot of people are taking temporary refuge in adjacent countries, and if things settled down they will return home. The refugee process only applies to those who wish to permanently resettle, and who have no expectation that they will ever be able to return in safety.

Nov 24, 2015#51

Jax

Going slightly offtopic, but do you guys have something like a Green Card Lottery, where someone can actually just win a Green Card through a lottery? I came across it once.. If so, is that still going (and accessible to anyone, regardless of where they're from of why they need it)?

Nov 24, 2015#52

SpecialKO

We still have it.

http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/oth...card-through-diversity-immigrant-visa-program

Nov 24, 2015#53

Denbrought

(Caveat: I have not researched this, and I am relating what I was told by my school's International Services when I was in college. All subject to being false, feel free to prove me wrong)

Note that participating in that program counts as intent to immigrate, and may complicate future entry/visit to the U.S. on any kind of non-immigrant visa (tourism, study), since you are a person that has confessed an interest to try and stay in the country. This may lead to denial (highly unlikely, but apparently has happened?), or to extra hurdles and delays when applying for travel visas.

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