Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

GasBandit

Staff member
I'm sorry, are you disagreeing that there's ethical issues with the prison industry in the U.S. (e.g. privatization, stigmatization, inmate-inmate abuse, system abuse, solitary confinement), or are you disagreeing that $80B is a bigger number than $600M?
I think he agrees with you and is trying to bring what you said back to the forefront. He's tapping the mic to make sure it works. Or maybe just tapping his fingers impatiently while he waits for the prison industry's problems to be addressed. After all, that is his day job.
Err, yes? Seems pretty clear to me.
You looking to be next, there, bird boy?
 
We already have laws on the books. If one person accidentally kills (or almost kills) another, there are existing manslaughter or negligence charges which can be brought, and punishments which can be meted out. It has also been established that ignorance of the law is no excuse. If a fetus' existence endangers the life of the mother, then it seems there's already a legal path to follow for all this (if someone wants to get all technical about it). Of course then there's the debate over whether or not a fetus constitutes a Real Person, etc.
EDIT: Looks like Gas already touched on that point while I was composing.

--Patrick
That's exactly what I said. If I murder someone, it's wrong because the law says it's wrong. But during a war or because death penalty or an abortion, it's ok because the law says it's ok. Life is not sacred, it's a legal term.
 
That's exactly what I said. If I murder someone, it's wrong because the law says it's wrong. But during a war or because death penalty or an abortion, it's ok because the law says it's ok. Life is not sacred, it's a legal term.
So what's YOUR guide to right and wrong, that makes you want the law to reflect what you think it should be?
 
Well, yes and no. Generally most have some skeletons in their closets, sure, but not all of them.

For example, take Bernie Sanders.

I don't agree with much of anything he supports.

But as far as I can tell, he's not a charlatan, and he walks the walk in addition to talking the talk.

For that, if nothing else, I can respect him.
Well, I wasn't going to say "everyone but Bernie". That would have been silly.
 
So what's YOUR guide to right and wrong, that makes you want the law to reflect what you think it should be?
I must admit that my guide for right and wrong is mostly the same that you: parents, society, religion, etc. I would never do something immoral or illegal, but I also believe that human morality is illogical and full of hypocrisy. It's like religion for me. It's the way I live but I also believe that it doesn't really makes any sense.
 
So what's YOUR guide to right and wrong, that makes you want the law to reflect what you think it should be?
He's not saying his own guide is any better or worse, I think, nor what he thinks the law should be. He's making a statement that legality and morality are, at least in our society, not directly the same, and a basis of assuming all life as sacred is just a personal assumption, as there are clearly cases where the law is ok with death.
Not every post here is necessarily trying to prove or push an agenda of their own.
 
lol at everyone saying abortion is the same as the death penalty. it's literally not a human life. at all. it's pre-human goo. it's an idea of a person later. calling it a human life is an insult to actual humans.
 
lol at everyone saying abortion is the same as the death penalty. it's literally not a human life. at all. it's pre-human goo. it's an idea of a person later. calling it a human life is an insult to actual humans.
DAE think their perspective is absolutely right and, having reached the apex of Truth, their chance of updating their beliefs from here on out is nil?
 
lol at everyone saying abortion is the same as the death penalty. it's literally not a human life. at all. it's pre-human goo. it's an idea of a person later. calling it a human life is an insult to actual humans.
Try telling someone that just had a miscarriage that is wasn't really human and to say you lost a baby is an insult to "actual humans". Or the couple that has lost multiple still-born at 37 weeks that it wasn't a person. It may not be fully formed or out of the womb but it is not just pre-human goo.

I don't expect anything more than this sort of remark from you though. I hope beyond all hope that should you ever find someone that will want to procreate with you and desire to reproduce you don't find out how painful losing a "pile of pre-human goo" can be.
 
Eh, when it comes to abortion, I think thats true. I can't imagine what would change your opinion one way or another.
Some people cease believing in souls, and viceversa.

Some people believe that the dividing line is whether the aborted being can feel pain or not, some others believe it's about whether it's viable, others believe it's about whether it's got a heartbeat.

Some people believe that abortion is an evil thing, but is a lesser evil to overpopulation, unwanted children, non-fatal-but-crippling birth defects, and so on. People believe that the quality of the embryo or its viability make no difference.

And so on so forth. These are all beliefs that people pick up, drop, and modify. If you want to reduce it to pro-choice vs. pro-life, then yes--less people will cross that divide. It's not a black and white issue, though, there's a shitload of gray where I dwell.

Lived experiences matter too: some people have never lost a loved one, or have. Some have had an abortion or miscarriage, some haven't, some never will. Some have never met or befriended a "should-have-been-aborted" person, some have. Same goes for a young single mother, or a pregnant rape victim.
 
Try telling someone that just had a miscarriage that is wasn't really human and to say you lost a baby is an insult to "actual humans". Or the couple that has lost multiple still-born at 37 weeks that it wasn't a person. It may not be fully formed or out of the womb but it is not just pre-human goo.

I don't expect anything more than this sort of remark from you though. I hope beyond all hope that should you ever find someone that will want to procreate with you and desire to reproduce you don't find out how painful losing a "pile of pre-human goo" can be.
Depends, though. I know someone who had a miscarriage, and has the (chosen) name tattooed on her wrist along with that of all her living children, who still thinks about the lost child often, and "celebrates" the unbirthday. On the other hand, my mother lost two babies and she never considered them children; sad occasions and a loss, certainly, but not a "person lost".
This is very much a cultural thing. The generation of my grandparents was much less emotional about loss of unborn children, younger people take this more seriously. On my father-in-law's side, they lost 2 out of 9 children, and, well, too bad. On my mother-in-law's side, they lost 1 in 8 in birth, and, well, "that's just normal". With my grandfather, they lost one at age 3 or 4, and even that wasn't really considered abnormal or terrible, just one of many dangers and the reason you had many kids, after all.
Even now, there're still communities/cultures where naming is postponed until a certain age (3 or so, in general) so as not to get attached too much beforehand, especially in poorer countries where child death and miscarriages/stillborns are much more common, as they were here a century years ago.
As children start to have a much higher chance of survival, we get (on average) less children, and we get attached much earlier. Also visible in something else: even back when I was younger, it was common not to announce a pregnancy until you were 3 months or so along. Now, I see friends announcing it at around 6 weeks.
None of this is meant to, in any way, lessen your pain or loss, for the record, merely to point out that it is connected to where and who.
 
Just to clarify, my wife and I have been fortunate in that we have not had a miscarriage (my wife had some bleeding and was on bed rest for a bit), but my brother and his wife and my wife's sister both have had issues and I've seen the pain it has caused them.

You have a good point @Bubble181 in that it is a cultural thing. But to call it pre-human goo is rather crass and insensitive.

I believe that the point @GasBandit is making is that there is a general lack of personal responsibility and that there are some that use abortion as birth control to avoid any at all.
 
I believe that the point @GasBandit is making is that there is a general lack of personal responsibility and that there are some that use abortion as birth control to avoid any at all.
But I think its better to err on the side of "more irresponsible sex" than "women have to have kids they don't want because they can't afford an abortion."
 
rather crass and insensitive.
"fairly typical of Charlie's way of talking about political issues". As he's said elsewhere, he deliberately words his statements aggressively, supposedly to "make you think". How this sort of phrasing isn't "needlessly antagonistic" aka "trolling" is beyond me. How it's supposed to ever convince anyone to his point of view escapes me as well. Don't worry about him.
 
Who cares if people use abortion for birth control? I 100% support women that want to get 10 abortions all in a row. I don't see a difference between abortions and condoms/the pill/the morning-after pill, etc. it's not your body, and it's not like they're going to run around and forcefully abort other people's fetuses?
 
Who cares if people use abortion for birth control? I 100% support women that want to get 10 abortions all in a row. I don't see a difference between abortions and condoms/the pill/the morning-after pill, etc. it's not your body, and it's not like they're going to run around and forcefully abort other people's fetuses?
*sigh* Very well, let's ignore the religious, moral or ethical side of things.

  1. Abortions are far more expensive than other forms of birth control
  2. Abortions pose a far greater risk to the health of the woman in question
  3. Abortions pose a far greater risk of rendering her infertile.
  4. Abortions need specialized care and take valuable time away from a doctor who could do other, necessary procedures in the mean time.
This is far from an exhaustive list.
 
For those who don't know, having abortion(s) makes it harder later to carry to term the one you might actually want to keep.

--Patrick
 
My wife and I have been married for 9 years now. We use two types of birth control, the Nuva Ring (which we get from Planned Parenthood), and condoms. We are super careful because if she gets pregnant there is a very real possibility it would kill her due to her hyper-mobility syndrome. She has in the last two days been getting cramps and fears she may have gotten pregnant, despite how careful we have been.

This isn't just some what-if scenario for us. I would be lost without her, and if I have to choose between my wife of 9 years and a being I've never met, even potential offspring, the choice is very clear to me. And though it might pain some to hear me say it, I'm thankful we have the option should we need it.


Um, I guess that's all, really.
 
My wife and I have been married for 9 years now. We use two types of birth control, the Nuva Ring (which we get from Planned Parenthood), and condoms. We are super careful because if she gets pregnant there is a very real possibility it would kill her due to her hyper-mobility syndrome. She has in the last two days been getting cramps and fears she may have gotten pregnant, despite how careful we have been.

This isn't just some what-if scenario for us. I would be lost without her, and if I have to choose between my wife of 9 years and a being I've never met, even potential offspring, the choice is very clear to me. And though it might pain some to hear me say it, I'm thankful we have the option should we need it.


Um, I guess that's all, really.
I don't know if you answered this before, but is there the possibility of having her tubes tied?
 
A vasectomy would be far less invasive. ;)
This is definitely where we are going to go next. Didn't have insurance to cover it until now, and I will need to use my PTO to do it at the moment, no vacation time. I'd like to not inconvenience the nice place which hired me ;)

It's definitely what we plan next though. Just needed to wait for the insurance to kick in.
 
This isn't just some what-if scenario for us. I would be lost without her, and if I have to choose between my wife of 9 years and a being I've never met, even potential offspring, the choice is very clear to me. And though it might pain some to hear me say it, I'm thankful we have the option should we need it.
Bro-fist for this. If pregnancy puts my wife's life in danger abortion should be an an available treatment option.

For others who are curious about the mentioned disease and why it presents complications in pregnancy and delivery, here's two papers about it:

http://www.ednf.org/medical-professionals/ehlers-danlos-syndrome-type-iii-and-pregnancy-case-report

http://www.afadoc.it/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/35506_fta.pdf

Thanks for sharing this with us, Krisken.
 
Are you disagreeing with the importance of prioritizing defunding of ethically troubling organizations with a sort-by-funding approach? Are you disagreeing with the two examples given being ethically troubling?

If neither, then why pay attention to $600M before $900B?* Do you agree with the legislators' priorities?
I believe that each person has the ability to work on multiple things at once. It isn't an issue of setting aside less "important" funding problems until the more "important" funding problems are resolved. So one person, who might be concerned with both, might write separate letters to their representatives on the two issues, and might elect representatives that most closely matches their values, including their order of prioritization.

And, in fact, I know there are people who see both as ethic problems, but have much less of a problem with one than the other, and they would vote and write letters accordingly. Still others are fine with one and not the other, and so on.

There's no need to suggest that we drop action on the smaller one until the bigger one is fixed.

Further, there's no link between them, so there will certainly be people who will view the lessor cost one as being worth their time and energy, while the bigger cost one isn't - and not because they're concerned about fiscal conservatism, but perhaps because they have humanist beliefs that allows for the rights of the unborn yet viable.

Internal and external security could be decoupled from all the big ethical concerns people have with them. Guantanamo et al don't need to be run by the U.S. military, let the private market decide.
I don't understand this assertion. Whether it's run by the military or not, the government is still footing the bill, and your original question appeared to be concerned about the funding, not about how it was actually carried out. I need more explanation to understand what problem this would solve...
 
Dude federal funds don't go towards elective abortions. That's illegal and has been since Clintons time.
If a store provides two services, and subsidizing thing A is illegal but not subsidizing thing B, so you subsidize thing B, you are in fact subsidizing thing A because subsidizing thing B frees up the store's resources that it would otherwise have had to expend in favor of thing B, and can put those resources toward thing A. Monetary fungibility is a thing.
 
*sigh* Very well, let's ignore the religious, moral or ethical side of things.

  1. Abortions are far more expensive than other forms of birth control
  2. Abortions pose a far greater risk to the health of the woman in question
  3. Abortions pose a far greater risk of rendering her infertile.
  4. Abortions need specialized care and take valuable time away from a doctor who could do other, necessary procedures in the mean time.
This is far from an exhaustive list.
And it should be the woman's option to choose these things in the same way people should be allowed to make other bad long term health decisions, like smoking, drinking, and working 70 hours a week.
 
And it should be the woman's option to choose these things in the same way people should be allowed to make other bad long term health decisions, like smoking, drinking, and working 70 hours a week.
I don't recall serious petitions and attempts to make the government provide you free cigarettes.
 
I don't understand this assertion. Whether it's run by the military or not, the government is still footing the bill, and your original question appeared to be concerned about the funding, not about how it was actually carried out. I need more explanation to understand what problem this would solve...
Sorry 'bout that, I didn't fully develop my thought--I was presenting an analogous argument to the defund-decouple idea for PP--let non-government sources of funding take care of all the ethically questionable security operations, so that those that want to see them happen can fund them without morally compromising the taxpayers.

This is all in furtherance of my irrational wish to see our world turn into something out of a William Gibson book, of course.
 
Top