Oh, dear... I really, really hope this is NOT the avenue they go down in VIII...
[Movies] Star Wars The Force Awakens SPOILER THREAD!
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This reminds me... Did anyone else notice when they were talking about Finn's defection, one of the commanders made mention of clone soldiers? Sadly the actual sentence does not stand out in my memory, but I think it was Hux to Phasma, with him saying that they should bring in the clone troopers, to which Phasma reassured him that her troops were top notch and that she would handle the situation.
Makes me curious if that was a throw away line or a much larger breadcrumb we will see in the coming movies.
Actually, I think that was Kylo suggesting to the general that maybe they should use clones after Finn defects and helps Poe escape.
Ah yes I think you are right. Either way, interesting to hear of the existence of clone troopers so far in the future. I wonder if they are related to the old Jango troopers, or a new breed.
I'm pretty sure that line was just there to tell everyone that Finn isn't a clone. The line is the annoyed officer guy saying "We should have used clones," referring to the First Order's stormtroopers, and Phasma assures him that her men are better than any clone. It's letting the audience know that the First Order stormtroopers are not clones, but children taken from homes and raised to be soldiers.
And it was a line I know I needed, because earlier when Fin tells Poe that all he had was a serial number, I assumed they'd gone back to using clones.
Ren stated that they "should have" used clones rather than conscripts. I took it to mean that there are not currently any clones being used or made. With the Prequel clones, their growth was accelerated and so all of those would probably be dead by now.
My little theory about R2 sensing the saber couldn't be correct because Finn takes the saber to the resistance long before Rey shows up. There's a possibility that R2 takes some time to wake up, but I'm guessing my theory isn't as good as the director's theory, which is simply that BB8 asks R2 if he has the rest of the map, and it takes some time for R2 to awaken and restart based on that stimulus.
Especially if R2 is still running Windows '95 which takes forever to boot up.
I don't think his stimulus was the lightsaber, but was just Rey herself.
There are too many "coincidences" in all this. While I don't think Luke globe-trotted the galaxy setting up all the pieces, he likely had ways of influencing events through the Force for the last twenty years. First, he knew he had to leave Rey (if it was Luke as theorized) on Jakku as a way to protect her, and asked Lor San Tekka to watch over her from a nearby village. He transferred and deleted the section of the map that shows where he was going from R2, and then gave it to Lor San Tekka, not telling him why he holds it but knowing that someday it would be important for Rey. He then asked R2 to go into low power mode with the rest of the map, until the day his sensors picked up Rey, completing it for her.
Second, on his way to the First Temple, he gave his fathers lightsaber to Maz Kanata to hold in her vault, having claimed it himself at some point (this is likely why Kylo instantly recognized it, because Luke likely promised it to him at some point during training). Once again, he does not tell Maz why she holds it, but that she will know who he is leaving it for. Then, once on the mysterious planet, he uses the Force to guide events. Rey would need a fast, sturdy ship to escape Jakku in the future, and it so happens there is one ship Luke trusts more then any other, the Millenium Falcon. Even the plot of the movie being so similar to A New Hope could be Luke attempting to have Rey experience similar trials that he himself went through in his youth, hoping that it will temper her spirit and stop her from falling to the Dark Side. It worked for him, right?
Of course, it would be that Luke has little to nothing to do with it, and that the Force itself is pushes through all these coincidences, but there is obviously way more to what is going on here then just dumb luck.
There are too many "coincidences" in all this. While I don't think Luke globe-trotted the galaxy setting up all the pieces, he likely had ways of influencing events through the Force for the last twenty years. First, he knew he had to leave Rey (if it was Luke as theorized) on Jakku as a way to protect her, and asked Lor San Tekka to watch over her from a nearby village. He transferred and deleted the section of the map that shows where he was going from R2, and then gave it to Lor San Tekka, not telling him why he holds it but knowing that someday it would be important for Rey. He then asked R2 to go into low power mode with the rest of the map, until the day his sensors picked up Rey, completing it for her.
Second, on his way to the First Temple, he gave his fathers lightsaber to Maz Kanata to hold in her vault, having claimed it himself at some point (this is likely why Kylo instantly recognized it, because Luke likely promised it to him at some point during training). Once again, he does not tell Maz why she holds it, but that she will know who he is leaving it for. Then, once on the mysterious planet, he uses the Force to guide events. Rey would need a fast, sturdy ship to escape Jakku in the future, and it so happens there is one ship Luke trusts more then any other, the Millenium Falcon. Even the plot of the movie being so similar to A New Hope could be Luke attempting to have Rey experience similar trials that he himself went through in his youth, hoping that it will temper her spirit and stop her from falling to the Dark Side. It worked for him, right?
Of course, it would be that Luke has little to nothing to do with it, and that the Force itself is pushes through all these coincidences, but there is obviously way more to what is going on here then just dumb luck.
fade
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And we need to get this to JJ, just in case it's not what he's planning, because it's perfect...
Some of the clone troopers from the Clone Wars (including Rex, sort of the Anakin's go-to-trooper) are involved in the proto-Rebellion in Star Wars: Rebels. They are indeed fairly old men by that point, which is a couple of years before A New Hope takes place. They are probably ether dead or too old to fight by The Force Awakens.
The Kamino-made clones that formed the Grand Army of the Republic age at around twice the normal baseline for human males. At the Battle of Geonosis that started The Clone Wars, the first batch of finished clones were 10 years old, biologically age 20. At the time Order 66 is given, the veteran clones are 13/26, with replacements between that and 10/20. By the time of the Battle of Yavin IV, they would be 32 years old and biologically anywhere from mid-40s to early 70s (depending on stress, exposure to chemicals, wounds, etc). By the time of The Force Awakens, they would chronologically be close to 70 and biologically dead of old age / complications of the cloning process. Now, in the EU, there were some clones who figured out a way to reverse the accelerated aging, so that they'd age at the rate of normal humans. It involved stealing enormous amounts of data and kidnapping quite a few scientists.
Something has been nagging at me about this movie and I really couldn't put my finger on it until recently. It's Starkiller Base and how tacked-on it is. A New Hope was all about the Death Star and how it was coming to kill the rebels. Everything led up to that. Tension was built throughout the whole movie.
In The Force Awakens, it was all about finding Luke. Where is he? Why did he leave? How do we get to him? And oh yeah, there's a giant super weapon that needs to be destroyed. Done? Ok, good, now back to Luke, we found him! Let's go!
The big super weapon was too easily destroyed.
I think the series would have been better served if the First Order was still finishing their base. We'd get to see it, get an idea of it's size and power, but that'd be it. We'd have the confrontation, maybe the Resistance damages it so it delays the completion, whatever. But build up to it being used. Movie 2 becomes all about training forces to fight it. Rey goes off to train with Luke, etc. And then halfway or toward the end of that movie, it gets used on the Republic. As it is, we have no connection to the Republic and so feel nothing when they are destroyed. If we are at least introduced to them and see them gearing up to fight this weapon and think we are going to get a massive fleet engagement like in Return of the Jedi AND THEN they get wiped out, we have instant tension.
Oh no! The Republic is now gone/in disarray and the Resistance has to fight the big super weapon on their own, with no real support from capital ships or an organized government. Much better tension and the audience cares much more about what is going to happen. We would need a new reason to get Han onto Starkiller Base to face down Kylo Ben, but it could be just for that and to rescue Rey. This also saves Captain Phasma from being such a push-over since she would still be knocking around the base with Gen. Hux.
As a bit of an aside, does anyone else also think they completely wasted Max Von Sydow in a throw away role? He would have been much better as Gen. Hux just simply due to his age. As it is, he shows up and is killed pretty damn quick. Domhnall Gleason could still be in it as Ren's main adversary within the First Order in a slightly different role. Colonel Hux (the General's son or nephew or something). But I digress from my main point.
I still really like the movie and it is a welcome change from the crap that was the prequels. A few tweaks to it and it could have been really good. They played it a little too safe, IMO, to make it great.
In The Force Awakens, it was all about finding Luke. Where is he? Why did he leave? How do we get to him? And oh yeah, there's a giant super weapon that needs to be destroyed. Done? Ok, good, now back to Luke, we found him! Let's go!
The big super weapon was too easily destroyed.
I think the series would have been better served if the First Order was still finishing their base. We'd get to see it, get an idea of it's size and power, but that'd be it. We'd have the confrontation, maybe the Resistance damages it so it delays the completion, whatever. But build up to it being used. Movie 2 becomes all about training forces to fight it. Rey goes off to train with Luke, etc. And then halfway or toward the end of that movie, it gets used on the Republic. As it is, we have no connection to the Republic and so feel nothing when they are destroyed. If we are at least introduced to them and see them gearing up to fight this weapon and think we are going to get a massive fleet engagement like in Return of the Jedi AND THEN they get wiped out, we have instant tension.
Oh no! The Republic is now gone/in disarray and the Resistance has to fight the big super weapon on their own, with no real support from capital ships or an organized government. Much better tension and the audience cares much more about what is going to happen. We would need a new reason to get Han onto Starkiller Base to face down Kylo Ben, but it could be just for that and to rescue Rey. This also saves Captain Phasma from being such a push-over since she would still be knocking around the base with Gen. Hux.
As a bit of an aside, does anyone else also think they completely wasted Max Von Sydow in a throw away role? He would have been much better as Gen. Hux just simply due to his age. As it is, he shows up and is killed pretty damn quick. Domhnall Gleason could still be in it as Ren's main adversary within the First Order in a slightly different role. Colonel Hux (the General's son or nephew or something). But I digress from my main point.
I still really like the movie and it is a welcome change from the crap that was the prequels. A few tweaks to it and it could have been really good. They played it a little too safe, IMO, to make it great.
I agree that they don't showcase starkiller base, but that's simply a problem of scale which appears in all the movies. It's a planet sized base, can contain the energy of half a sun, but only has a few dozen fighters and fighter pilots? Please. It's a planet with a breathable atmosphere, there should be millions of pilots and fighters they can scramble within minutes in the immediate vicinity of any sensitive facilities.
This director, and lucas, both would rather write for and depict small skirmishes than large battles. For instance, the scenes in Lord of the Rings with huge fields covered with soldiers, or the space battle scenes in galactica, or the space battle scenes from ender's game - armies so large you can't see them all at once unless you're such a distance away that you can't make out any individual unit.
The first order should have had at least such an army on that base. They built a stupid star sucker into the planet core, it contains the energy of a star, it has the volume of a black hole, and they only have a few dozen fighters?
The problem is larger than this, though. There are a lot of times that space is compressed and it feels like star systems are mere light minutes away, or that huge ships are crewed by a dozen people, or that small colonies are magically self-sufficient on arid dessert planets that have literally nothing to trade or export, nevermind huge cities.
This, however, is the universe of Star Wars, and I think it's intentional. To some degree it feels like an oral tradition - a story told through a line of people that only remember the relevant and important details, and has a necessary loss of information to keep the story going. If it were a book you'd question the narrator's position in this world, and whether they are a trustworthy narrator. Given that it's a movie, you can ask the same question of the writers and directors, and I think you can adjust your suspense of disbelief more easily if you assume that you're looking through the lens of an unreliable detached observer.
This director, and lucas, both would rather write for and depict small skirmishes than large battles. For instance, the scenes in Lord of the Rings with huge fields covered with soldiers, or the space battle scenes in galactica, or the space battle scenes from ender's game - armies so large you can't see them all at once unless you're such a distance away that you can't make out any individual unit.
The first order should have had at least such an army on that base. They built a stupid star sucker into the planet core, it contains the energy of a star, it has the volume of a black hole, and they only have a few dozen fighters?
The problem is larger than this, though. There are a lot of times that space is compressed and it feels like star systems are mere light minutes away, or that huge ships are crewed by a dozen people, or that small colonies are magically self-sufficient on arid dessert planets that have literally nothing to trade or export, nevermind huge cities.
This, however, is the universe of Star Wars, and I think it's intentional. To some degree it feels like an oral tradition - a story told through a line of people that only remember the relevant and important details, and has a necessary loss of information to keep the story going. If it were a book you'd question the narrator's position in this world, and whether they are a trustworthy narrator. Given that it's a movie, you can ask the same question of the writers and directors, and I think you can adjust your suspense of disbelief more easily if you assume that you're looking through the lens of an unreliable detached observer.
The way I see it, the First Order but a lot of effort, money and ressources into Starkiller base and a lot less of these into capital ships. With the Republic leaderless and in disarray and the Resistance without proper support it would be easy to clean up any leftovers and gather control.
I do see the flaws mentioned above though, just wanted to bring in another bit of reason into Star Wars.
Also, Hux as well as Kylo show the state of the First Order: fresh and new, younf and wild. Kids raised on myths of the Empire by the First Order.
I do see the flaws mentioned above though, just wanted to bring in another bit of reason into Star Wars.
Also, Hux as well as Kylo show the state of the First Order: fresh and new, younf and wild. Kids raised on myths of the Empire by the First Order.
Well, it was a long time ago. And in a galaxy far away.
Which is just the geek way of saying, "Once upon a time..."
On Starkiller Base: I think that level of large scale criticism is better saved for after this new trilogy is done. If they do Starkiller 2.0 in Episode IX, then I think it's valid criticism. But we have no idea what they're doing with the next two movies, so I think it's a little early to say "this trilogy would be better served." We don't know that, because we haven't seen this trilogy yet.
On scale: I prefer this. I love the Lord of the Rings movies and those battles are awe-inspiring, but littering the field with troops/ships is what the prequel trilogy did, and showed that having more of something doesn't make it better. (Especially lightsabers.) These smaller skirmishes let us get close in even with the people outside the spotlight. Here, I was like "oh no, weird-looking dude died!" whereas in LOTR during the Fields of Pelennor battle, I really only gave a shit about the name characters.
On scale: I prefer this. I love the Lord of the Rings movies and those battles are awe-inspiring, but littering the field with troops/ships is what the prequel trilogy did, and showed that having more of something doesn't make it better. (Especially lightsabers.) These smaller skirmishes let us get close in even with the people outside the spotlight. Here, I was like "oh no, weird-looking dude died!" whereas in LOTR during the Fields of Pelennor battle, I really only gave a shit about the name characters.
All those references to the original trilogy, now you've made me see a reference to the prequels: Starkiller Base is Darth Maul.
"You're afraid..."
Force Awakens has officially over-taken Avatar for highest grossing, domestic, movie of all time: $764 million to Avatar's $760 million.
Pretty interested to see if this is a trend for the future - if the other films in the series will do this well.
(I like reading all of your guys' thoughts and theories on the movie because my brain can only think one thing will watching it.)
Pretty interested to see if this is a trend for the future - if the other films in the series will do this well.
(I like reading all of your guys' thoughts and theories on the movie because my brain can only think one thing will watching it.)
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What 'one' thing? Cosplay? or that you want to hug Chewbacca?
Oh, it's a little more carnal than that. Yeah, my desire to jump Kylo Ren's bones is pretty distracting. It's a problem.
And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out.
So, I mean, cosplay is a part of it.Now I'm imagining hardcore Kylo on BB-8 action, and I'm strangely OK with it.Oh, it's a little more carnal than that. Yeah, my desire to jump Kylo Ren's bones is pretty distracting. It's a problem.
And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out.
BB-8 gives a thumbs up afterwards.
Forever jealous of BB-8!!
Haha, and a thumbs up after would be the perfect response. *giggling*
You could just watch Girls and pretend it's younger Kylo.Oh, it's a little more carnal than that. Yeah, my desire to jump Kylo Ren's bones is pretty distracting. It's a problem.
And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out.
And then second, all I can think of is figuring out a way to cosplay BB-8. Still wracking my brain trying to figure it out.
I mean...I'm not saying that's what I'm doing......but..just finished season 2 yesterday.
Haha, yeah, I've seen that before. And while construction wise it's AMAZING, it's just not a cosplay of BB-8 to me. It's fashion, which is lovely, but it's just not the same.
