A question about transgender issues

fade

fade

Staff member
The more I think about transgender people, the more I realize there's a group that seems to be left out. There are doubtlessly many people who are uncomfortable within the sex they were born with. No argument there. These people have many societal problems to overcome, but they may have recourse now. Therapy includes validating that these people are suffering from a body mismatch.

What about people who simply want to live as the other gender? Given that hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery require demonstrating a fundamental problem with one's birth sex, it seems that there is no option for someone who may not feel at all like their sex does not match their identity.

There are many people who feel this way. There are whole groups online devoted to them. I'm just curious what their options are.
 
strawman

strawman

Seemingly that would fall under freedom of conscience, which is what religion falls under, and is much more limited than civil rights.

If you claim those traits are inborn, and you have no ability to change them willingly, it's much easier to compare them to civil rights.

If you claim that it's your choice, and you have the ability to choose and change at will, then while you are afforded many protections that allow you to express your choice, you are still very limited.

You might choose to express your identity as a Native American, dress as such, and live as such, but once you attempt to exercise their rights, such as hunting and fishing without license, you may still face prosecution because you aren't actually part of that group.

This is much harder to discern with transgender expression versus being transgender, since there's no known objectively measurable component. I foresee many future legal battles where rights of conscience and civil rights are difficult to discern because people are expressing feelings and desires as inborn traits as though they were concrete realities, as much as skin color or sex is a concrete reality. You can't go into someone's head and verify a feeling or desire, though, so all we can really do is take someone at their word and live with the consequential changes to society that must occur as we allow people to fully exercise their feelings and desires.

I await the time when nudists and exhibitionists go before the supreme court to claim that their desires are inborn traits and they must be allowed to interact with society in their desired form of attire (or lack thereof). "NO SHIRT NO SHOES NO SERVICE" would be considered harmful open displays of bigotry.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

Right now I would say that all the existing options are merely cosmetic. I will freely admit that I would jump at the chance to experience life as the other gender(s?), the same way I'd like to try skydiving, hang gliding, being a celebrity, studying wizardry, flying a spaceship, or any of a number of far-out fantasies. However, while skydiving/hang gliding/scuba diving/being a celebrity are things that I can actually do (assuming I want to spend enough money, that is), the other ones can only be simulated. The best that hormone treatments and surgeries can achieve at this time is the biological equivalent of hardcore cross-dressing and they are not reversible, which means a person has to be committed to the one-way transition, which rules out the idea of "gender vacations" in real life.
I'm not 100% sure your question as stated isn't really asking the same thing twice, though. A person who, as you say, wants to "live" as the other gender is probably someone uncomfortable with their current morphology, and would therefore be a candidate for BDD therapy, surgery, etc. Otherwise you're talking about someone who just wants to live as the opposite sex for a week/month/year/decade/job interview/college degree/family reunion*/couples counseling, and then we're back to the "gender vacation" idea, where even if the plan is to switch for 4 years, it's still considered "temporary" with the goal to return to the previous state.

--Patrick
*This would be the best family prank EVAR.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
I disagree that they are the same thing. I don't think you have to be uncomfortable with your current situation to want to change.
 
Denbrought

Denbrought

A useful thought on this topic is the "X-by-default" vs. "X-by-preference" scale. At one end, you have people who are absolutely ambivalent about their X (be that gender, orientation, soccer team, ...) and, at the other end, you have people who fiercely identify as X (strongly heterosexual people, early-adopter transgender, etc. go here).

I think a lot people fall somewhere in-between those two ends. As far as I can tell, as the cost (monetary, physical, social, legal, ...) for transition goes down (be it changing political parties, coming out as gay, changing your gender expression, ...), the more people that express a willingness to change. If the costs were to trend towards zero (your imagination can fill in what this means, based on the categories above), you would expect more people to "jump the fence", and viceversa (higher costs make less people change).

I think that the "born this way" party line throws a significant amount of people under the bus. It results in easier political gains, and will probably be discarded down the road (along with all the fucking ableist #YesAllWomen-type claptrap), but in the meantime that's what being repeated ceaselessly.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
Don't give a shit either way. You want to dress like a woman and still be a man? Cool. You want to actually be a woman? Cool. You want to be a man or just dress like one? Knock yourself out.

The fact that anyone really gives a shit about these things boggles my mind. It doesn't affect me in any way, shape, or form so why worry about it?
 
fade

fade

Staff member
I kind of have the feeling my question came across wrong. I don't care if someone wants to change their gender. My topic is more about the lack of resources available to someone who wants to change rather than needs to change.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
Ah. So you're talking about an actual transition without counseling. I get ya. Still don't care. Don't know exactly how to address the lack of resources thing. I can't see insurance paying for this as it would be an elective surgical procedure. And that's as it should be. If I wanted to have cat-shaped eyes I could do that, but I'd have to pay for it myself.
 
Covar

Covar

fade said:
I kind of have the feeling my question came across wrong. I don't care if someone wants to change their gender. My topic is more about the lack of resources available to someone who wants to change rather than needs to change.
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Honest question, what's the difference between wants and needs here? We're talking about a mental condition (don't take that word in a negative connotation, that's not what I'm going for I just can't think of a way to be more descriptive), which makes it impossible to objectively distinguish the difference between the two.

Perhaps my question should be what kind of different resources would need to be made available?
 
fade

fade

Staff member
That's kind of the same thing that PatrThom said. To me, they are quite different. Need means you are at odds with your body, and it effects your life. Want means you don't feel gender dysphoria, but you would like to be a different gender for whatever reason. Maybe you just like the idea. Maybe you think you would prefer life as the other gender (even though you don't feel like you are the other gender trapped in the wrong body).
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

fade said:
That's kind of the same thing that PatrThom said. To me, they are quite different. Need means you are at odds with your body, and it effects your life. Want means you don't feel gender dysphoria, but you would like to be a different gender for whatever reason. Maybe you just like the idea. Maybe you think you would prefer life as the other gender (even though you don't feel like you are the other gender trapped in the wrong body).
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My assertion was that, if you are not someone who wants to permanently and irrevocably change your gender, then you are in the gender tourist or "try-on" category (regardless of the length of that term). But if you are in the permanently and irrevocably category, even if it is just a "want," then you would by definition be dysmorphic, because nobody says, "I will switch from A to B and never come back" unless they are unhappy with A in the first place.
Dave said:
The fact that anyone really gives a shit about these things boggles my mind. It doesn't affect me in any way, shape, or form so why worry about it?
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You and I (and of course others) might think that, but there are plenty of people for whom finding out your spouse/SO didn't actually start out that way would play out in their mind like that Tales From The Darkside movie segment.

--Patrick
 
Hylian

Hylian

Trans can be an umbrella sort of term, for the most part trans people a sense of dysphoria about their assigned gender at birth and wish to use hormones or surgery to rectify their outward appearance to match their internal gender. But there are a lot of people who are trans but choose not to transition for one reason or another. There is also a lot of people who could fall under the trans umbrella but don't necessarily consider themselves trans (cross dressers, etc) but you don't have to have extreme life crippling dysphoria to be trans. Generally most people would say that wanting to be the opposite gender you were assigned is a type of dysphoria in of itself. But even if you don't have dysphoria and you don't consider wanting to be the opposite gender of your assigned birth (or a non binary gender) it is completely up to you. Granted there are some therapists who may try to play gatekeeper but for the most part there are a lot of good therapists out there. A gender therapist could help you work out some details of exactly you are feeling and the best way to go about it. Maybe you would like to transition and maybe you won't but it is completely up to you.

I myself have been seeing a gender therapist lately and they have helped me a lot, now granted I have been suffering from dysphoria and stuff since early on (just deeply repressed it for years) but not all trans people or at least not all people who would prefer to be another gender are the same. As far as hormones and surgery go it is the best we have for now to correct the issue, it is not because we are you or you or whatever is mentally ill it is simply a birth defect of sorts and since we don't have the technology to swap brains or have a magic pill that would instantly change you into a perfectly normal opposite gendered version of yourself . If you would like to chat more in private or anything just let me know, I am far from the most knowledgeable person on these topics but I am more than willing to offer a listening ear. :)


--edit--

a few articles that may be of interest

http://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/20...ns-and-symptoms-of-indirect-gender-dysphoria/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/04/17/the-null-hypothecis/
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

I also don't know what "want" really means. Would you "want" to be female just so you can get cheaper drinks at a bar, or male so you get stared at less in a gym? Just because you "want" to see how the other half lives? Because you "want" to break into the adult film industry in a new and novel manner? Do you "want" to attend a particular college (as student OR faculty) but they are a [GENDER]-only school? Or maybe because you are currently astronomically bored and just "want" to try something new? All of these don't sound like they're meant to be permanent.
Hylian said:
A gender therapist could help you work out some details of exactly you are feeling and the best way to go about it. Maybe you would like to transition and maybe you won't but it is completely up to you.
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I don't know if that's the direction he's going, but of course this is useful advice.

In any case, if the ability to swap genders were to become as commonplace as changing your socks for the day, well, there'd be no more #feminism or #patriarchy. What do you do when literally anyone can be sued for paternity, or apply for maternity leave? It'd be one major upheaval, that's for sure.

--Patrick
 
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fade

fade

Staff member
I think "want" is best defined as not a need. I have many wants in my life that are permanent or near enough so. I certainly didn't need them, nor would my life have been of lower quality without them.

This is honestly not about me. I'm just curious.
 
blotsfan

blotsfan

I could be wrong, but I believe what you're describing is being gender-fluid. I can't say I really know/understand much about it though.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Fade is making a differentiation between those who would be considered transgender in the sense of "I'm a man in a woman's body" or "I'm a woman in a man's body" i.e. a clear case of dysphoria, versus someone who may NOT feel "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman" but want to be one of those.

The difference is less need/want and more like am/want. "I am a man" is different than "I want to be a man." Some of you are taking that to be Fade asking what's the difference, but he already recognizes a difference.

Fade, I'm not sure if I'm getting the next step, but are you asking morally would it be okay in the lens of the trans community? I don't know that.

When you get down to it, what makes a soul male or female? Many people surely feel that within, internally to their spirit/thoughts/etc, they are a gender, but I have a hard time pinning down what that means. I'm sure many cis or trans people are certain of what they are within and can make decisions based on that, but for others, it just seems like a gray miasma that has no discernible gender side, because our minds don't have genitals. Or how much does genitals make the person a gender?

And then I guess, for people where it's dysphoric and dire, there's an urgency to transition for the sake of completion. For a situation without that urgency, I guess the question would be, if you could make the choice at birth, would you choose to be what you are right now? Or make a different choice?
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

My understanding of "gender fluid" is one of "not anchored to any specific gender" as opposed to something like "curious/experimental," "misogynist/misandrist," or "dysphoric."
(does some searching)
The Internet consensus appears to be that the gender of people who are truly "gender fluid" is a moving target, and continues to vary over time, never settling on anything specific.
Zero Esc said:
Fade is making a differentiation between those who would be considered transgender in the sense of "I'm a man in a woman's body" or "I'm a woman in a man's body" i.e. a clear case of dysphoria, versus someone who may NOT feel "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman" but want to be one of those.
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I get that, I really do. There are those who feel cursed with their current phenotype. These are the stereotypical dysphorics. Then there are those who say they want to "be" another gender. All I'm saying is that the ones who want to be another gender permanently are therefore also dysphoric. They may not feel cursed by their current gender, they may be rather blasé about their current state, but if their goal is to cross over and never return, then it might be that they are only mildly dysphoric (since they aren't being mentally destroyed by their inability to transition), but they are still dysphoric. Dysphorics want to abandon their current gender permanently, never return, and never look back. They're not looking to belly up to the gender buffet until they find something they like, they are looking to get out of the gender they currently have and get into the one that matches their mentality.
...In other words, the dysphoric says, "I am a man trapped in a woman's body. I will remake my body over into that of a man, and then I will finally be satisfied." Whereas the other person says, "I am a woman in a woman's body, and I would like to change my body into that of a man but continue to think as a woman." The second person is not looking to become a man in body and mind, merely in body.

I suppose what @fade is suggesting with the "want" people is that second one, where a person would want to transition from B to A externally but maintain the B mentality (which is the direct Data/Spock opposite* of the dysphoric), but then we're back to my argument that doing so just treats gender morphology as a sort of fleshy suit that can be changed on a whim.

--Patrick
*Each is exactly what the other aspires to be, but can't have. (pre-chip) Data can't feel emotions, is 100% logic. Spock wants to be logical and suppresses the emotions he experiences.
 
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fade

fade

Staff member
I'm not asking about right or wrong. There's absolutely no judgment here. In fact there's not so much a question as a discussion.

I don't think I've communicated my point well so I'll drop it until I formulate it better.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

fade said:
I'll drop it until I formulate it better.
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Looking forward to resuming the discussion later. This sort of subject is one of those things I find socially fascinating. Partially because it is something that has so many constructed social implications and dependencies, and partially because it is a thing that makes so many people SO uncomfortable.

--Patrick
 
strawman

strawman

Further clouding the issue is the unexpectedly large number of people who go through transition, then discover it doesn't resolve the problem. It's one of the reasons many in the medical community are pushing back and asking patients to spend more time living transgender before medically (hormones, surgery, etc) transitioning.

It's hard enough determining where someone is along the transgender spectrum without even beginning to understand need vs want.

So the bar is set high because the medical studies that appear to have the best information suggest that those who still have unresolved issues after transition were often misdiagnosed.

As such the answer to the initial question is that there are really no resources for sex reassignment and hormone therapy for those without true fender dysphasia. I'm sure someone could pay to have these things done anyway, but in the general case doctors today won't treat people for it without meeting that rather high bar.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

PatrThom said:
I get that, I really do. There are those who feel cursed with their current phenotype. These are the stereotypical dysphorics. Then there are those who say they want to "be" another gender. All I'm saying is that the ones who want to be another gender permanently are therefore also dysphoric. They may not feel cursed by their current gender, they may be rather blasé about their current state, but if their goal is to cross over and never return, then it might be that they are only mildly dysphoric (since they aren't being mentally destroyed by their inability to transition), but they are still dysphoric. Dysphorics want to abandon their current gender permanently, never return, and never look back. They're not looking to belly up to the gender buffet until they find something they like, they are looking to get out of the gender they currently have and get into the one that matches their mentality.
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I hadn't really considered there to be shades of dysphoria; I'd been kind of looking at it black and white as if you either have it or you don't. You're right; one doesn't need to be at the level of depressed/suicidal to be dysphoric, and it can go through different levels between low-range dysphoria.

I suppose if the goal is gender euphoria, then the various levels of dysphoria are still in the same boat.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
I don't think that our "want" person is necessarily treating gender as only the biological sex. There's nothing to say that this person is not interested in adopting behavioral patterns or identities also. I still don't agree that permanence implies dysphoria either. It could imply dissatisfaction or unhappiness without the mismatch that clinical dysphoria implies. Or it could imply desire. Liking B more than A does not indicate dislike of A.

I think part of the problem is the term "transgender" itself, which carries with it the dysphoria as a defining characteristic. In essence, the "need" person--who is transgender--is already the other gender, though their sex does not match their gender. The "want" person is not truly transgender.

My original point was that there is really no route in society for the "want" person.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

fade said:
My original point was that there is really no route in society for the "want" person.
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Not just in society, but also in medical technology. The current level of medical technology enables an approximation close enough that the truly dysphoric generally find it sufficient to bring them the comfort they desire. However, the level of ersatz and expense means that the "could take it or leave it" dysphorics and the "want" persons you describe will pass it up not only due to the inconvenience, but also due to the incompleteness of the conversion. Until the advent of vat-grown opposite-sex clones for transplant or magical pervert-O-rays, we're gonna be stuck with the current merely superficial methods.

--Patrick
 
Zoe Brain

Zoe Brain

The book "Self made man" by Norah Vincent may be instructive. Ms Vincent originally believed that gender was entirely a social construct, there was no real difference between the sexes, and that Trans women were just mentally ill men. As a lesbian feminist, she thought she could pretend to be male for a year or two to explore the issue, without adverse consequences.
From the Observer's review of the book;

Her project to experience life as a man turns into a personal nightmare. A feminist and a lesbian, Vincent expects that, as a convincing Ned, she will finally have a life of privilege and entitlement. But men have their own unpleasant codes, Ned discovers. Don't hold anyone's gaze too long. Don't show too much enthusiasm. Don't be apologetic about anything. Show no weakness. This - and the essential deceit - brings Vincent to the verge of a nervous breakdown. Instead of feeling powerful and dominating, Ned finds being a man depressing and exhausting. You have to put on a constant show of 'maleness'.

That was how she interpreted it, and there's some truth in it. But mainly, that's classic Gender Dysphoria, and she went well beyond the verge of a nervous breakdown as the result. She must be a very strong person to have lasted that long without preparation. Trans girls have years of it when young to get used to it.
 
Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Zoe Brain said:
The book "Self made man" by Norah Vincent may be instructive. Ms Vincent originally believed that gender was entirely a social construct, there was no real difference between the sexes, and that Trans women were just mentally ill men. As a lesbian feminist, she thought she could pretend to be male for a year or two to explore the issue, without adverse consequences.
From the Observer's review of the book;

Her project to experience life as a man turns into a personal nightmare. A feminist and a lesbian, Vincent expects that, as a convincing Ned, she will finally have a life of privilege and entitlement. But men have their own unpleasant codes, Ned discovers. Don't hold anyone's gaze too long. Don't show too much enthusiasm. Don't be apologetic about anything. Show no weakness. This - and the essential deceit - brings Vincent to the verge of a nervous breakdown. Instead of feeling powerful and dominating, Ned finds being a man depressing and exhausting. You have to put on a constant show of 'maleness'.

That was how she interpreted it, and there's some truth in it. But mainly, that's classic Gender Dysphoria, and she went well beyond the verge of a nervous breakdown as the result. She must be a very strong person to have lasted that long without preparation. Trans girls have years of it when young to get used to it.
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I think I like thread necros when they come with information and a new person joining.

Hi, new person.
 
Dave

Dave

Staff member
What an excellent book! She thought that everything was going to be puppies and rainbows and she found out that men have issues, too .Additionally, she found men to be much more accepting than the average woman. It's a great story.

Thanks for the reminder!
 
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