Who are you to judge? Are you so blinded by political ideology that you're going to sit here and make the claim that anyone on this board doesn't care about victims of human trafficking? Go eat a snickers.
Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats
- Thread starter GasBandit
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Necronic
Staff member
and instead of actually dealing with that we're going to build a fucking wall.[DOUBLEPOST=1487388397,1487388121][/DOUBLEPOST]
I despise human trafficking. And I think we should devote resources to ending it. And that is not at all what the current climate around illegal immigration is about.[DOUBLEPOST=1487388985][/DOUBLEPOST]I also do believe that no one here supports human trafficking. But to try and divert the illegal immigration argument to human trafficking is not only underhanded it's also factually wrong.
A LARGE portion of the people trafficked in the US are actually domestic. As in Citizens.
I'm arguing that using Human trafficking as a last ditch argument against illegal immigration is exploiting a group whose entire existence is exploitation.
I despise human trafficking. And I think we should devote resources to ending it. And that is not at all what the current climate around illegal immigration is about.[DOUBLEPOST=1487388985][/DOUBLEPOST]I also do believe that no one here supports human trafficking. But to try and divert the illegal immigration argument to human trafficking is not only underhanded it's also factually wrong.
A LARGE portion of the people trafficked in the US are actually domestic. As in Citizens.
GasBandit
Staff member
Human trafficking is definitely part of any serious illegal immigration debate. Furthermore, even illegal immigrants who are not being held in the country against their will are getting the short end of the stick, more often than not.
The only people who really derive any benefit from illegal immigration are those who use it for their own Financial gain, their own political gain, or to fallaciously assuage their own conscience.
It's definitely true that the Trump campaign and Administration have made a bigger deal about illegal immigration than really needed to be made, but that doesn't mean it is a non-issue, or a "rounding error." Frankly, I think it is long past due for the concept of a sanctuary city to initiate a constitutional crisis - if what's-her-name should have been sent to jail or been forced to step down because she refused to grant marriage licenses to gay couples after the federal government ruled on marriage, then every city and state official who ever instituted policy to harbor illegal aliens should be treated likewise. It's the same situation, just with somebody else's politically sacred cow.
The only people who really derive any benefit from illegal immigration are those who use it for their own Financial gain, their own political gain, or to fallaciously assuage their own conscience.
It's definitely true that the Trump campaign and Administration have made a bigger deal about illegal immigration than really needed to be made, but that doesn't mean it is a non-issue, or a "rounding error." Frankly, I think it is long past due for the concept of a sanctuary city to initiate a constitutional crisis - if what's-her-name should have been sent to jail or been forced to step down because she refused to grant marriage licenses to gay couples after the federal government ruled on marriage, then every city and state official who ever instituted policy to harbor illegal aliens should be treated likewise. It's the same situation, just with somebody else's politically sacred cow.
Necronic
Staff member
Shit man. South Carolina contributes 1$ to the federal budget for every 7 it receives. It may be the single biggest welfare queen in the country. And instead of focusing on improving their financial situation what do they do? Institute a bathroom bill that costs them billions of dollars in outside investment.
What do they care? The rest of us just will bail them out like we always have.
And the two states that are "overrun" with immigrants? California and Texas? We are two of the most valuable states in the union. We bring home the bacon like the badasses we are.
So yeah. Don't tell me illegal immigrants are some serious problem when it's mostly our own citizens from certain backwards assed states holding us back.
This is a zero sum game. You want to fight one problem you don't get to fight another.
The money we waste on these headline grabbing immigration raids is money we can't use on serious problems. Like human trafficking or the economy.
What do they care? The rest of us just will bail them out like we always have.
And the two states that are "overrun" with immigrants? California and Texas? We are two of the most valuable states in the union. We bring home the bacon like the badasses we are.
So yeah. Don't tell me illegal immigrants are some serious problem when it's mostly our own citizens from certain backwards assed states holding us back.
This is a zero sum game. You want to fight one problem you don't get to fight another.
The money we waste on these headline grabbing immigration raids is money we can't use on serious problems. Like human trafficking or the economy.
GasBandit
Staff member
I'm not in favor of casting a blind eye to indentured servitude because it boosts our economy and keeps tomatoes cheap to pay an illegal a fraction of what it would cost to employ an above-board worker.
And I don't accept that the same people who want us to adopt the rest of the world's gun laws and the rest of the world's health care systems are right to say that we're suddenly racist for wanting immigration laws and enforcement more similar to the rest of the world's.
Have you seen how they treat illegal aliens in Mexico?
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Necronic
Staff member
Look at all your concern about human trafficking and the suffering of the illegal immigrant.
The "Day Without Immigrants" protest is meant to raise awareness as sort of a half-hearted universal boycott. This is actually the second one of these I've experienced, there was one a few years ago as well, and it felt exactly the same.
As I live in Texas, most of the "immigrants" are hispanic. Basically, most of the hispanic people in my town stayed home today all day, refusing to go to work or spend money in any local stores or restaurants, etc. I guess the idea is to make local businesses and residents realize "what an important part of the local community" immigrants are.
Unfortunately, I don't think that was the effect.
All I and my other white friends know is that traffic was much nicer on every road, the wait times at every store and restaurant we went to was much shorter, everything was less crowded, and all in all today was just a really pleasant day.
I mean, yeah, some businesses closed for the day out of solidarity, but none of the ones we really ever go to - it's not like the big grocery stores closed, or the chain restaurants, or the movie theaters, etc. So really, that didn't affect us at all.
It kinda left me wishing they had more of these protest days.
Oh, and I should also note, that some callers got REALLY MAD at our spanish station DJs for showing up to work.
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I don't know how to address the whole "compassionate left" thing here, other than re- point out the red herring. Nice move Trump Jr.[DOUBLEPOST=1487402586,1487402484][/DOUBLEPOST]
Right its all bullshit.
A
Anonymous
Anonymous
Why is opinion on illegal immigration being correlated with human trafficking when VAWA and the U visa exist as means to help victims of human trafficking become citizens?
If you go back a page or two, you can see for yourself why.
...
As for Gas... c'mon man, you really think stopping illegal immigration will do anything to curb prostitution? Or is it just one of those jobs you think should be only for legal residents?[DOUBLEPOST=1487430453,1487430246][/DOUBLEPOST]
Don't look @ me, i got it the 1st time.
Denbrought was the one that missed it.
Your reading comprehension is poor, please strive to improve. Gas was showing an implicit "ought" preference, someone accused him of thus revealing an unfounded "is" belief. I butted in to point out that was not the case, which GB has confirmed.
GasBandit
Staff member
Speaking of Red Herrings...
I hope a night's sleep has cooled your head, because it is clear last night your emotions were running away with you to the point where data started to blend together (it was North Carolina, not South, which had the bathroom law controversy) and your irrational hatred of southerners guided your arguments. Yes, maybe SC gets $7 for every $1 in federal income tax its citizens pay, but that has nothing to do with it being southern and backward - it's neighbor, Georgia, the most stereotypical of southern states, actually does better than Maryland, Indiana, Maine, Connecticut, and so on... in fact, in the rankings, they're neck and neck with California. And you know who is second worst on that same list after SC? North Dakota. Not exactly deep in the heart of Dixie, there.
It's also not valid logic to use federal dollars in measuring the impact of illegal immigrants because illegals don't pay or use federal dollars in a way that is readily measured thusly. Their largest impact is on local and state institutions and the private sector.
And yes, curtailing illegal immigration would be better for the welfare of the illegals as well. As it stands, they make up an easily exploited and extorted underclass for the service industry.
Hey, hey, hey, look who's out of arguments again.
Heh, fill out the "c'mon man" bingo slot, folks.
The answer is that the two go hand in hand. The large and persistent influx of illegal aliens contributes to an environment of vulnerability and abuse. Wherever the law fails to hold people accountable, crime will flourish. The failure to effectively address the illegal alien dilemma creates and perpetuates an environment in which exploitation runs rampant.
While anyone can become a victim of trafficking, illegal aliens are highly vulnerable to being trafficked due to a combination of factors, including lack of legal status and protections, limited language skills and employment options, poverty and immigration-related debts, and social isolation. They are often victimized by traffickers from a similar ethnic or national background, on whom they may be dependent for employment or support in the foreign country.
And it doesn't even have to be within the US's physical borders. The act of attempting to reach the US illegally has been shown to be perilous in and of itself, such as when Mexican drug gangs executed 72 people who were on their way to try to enter the US in 2010. Border crossing deaths doubled between 1995 and 2006 despite there being no corresponding increase in the number of entries. One can only assume it has continued to worsen as the cartels have strengthened their hold over northern Mexico since.
And yes, a wall isn't gonna fix this. It'll just create more ladder stores a block south, or spur increased production of tunneling equipment. What has to be addressed is the lure that brings them here, and the shielding from the law they expect from the naively well-intentioned.
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Necronic
Staff member
Ah you're right, I did mix up NC and SC. Luckily SC has also decided to do a bathroom bill.
As for my "hatred" of the south it's not that at all. I've lived in Texas my entire life and I consider myself a southerner. Well Texan really (we are measurably better than your average southerner. It is known.). But when it comes to the Deep South I don't hate them, I feel pity for them. They are constantly at the bottom of the heap and lied to repeatedly, tricked into voting against their own self interests.
And I don't get how, as a fiscal libertarian you can't see their issues (and the other economically fucked states you listed) as being a more important issue than the illegal immigration that isn't occurring in any of those areas (maybe some Trailer Park Boys sneaking into Maine?)
Your arguments and priorities don't match your own stated ideology. A is A. Maybe I've mischaracterized your ideology.
And I cant really tell what you're talking about here:
But you are right that I got emotional last night. You brought up an incredibly dark topic in a way I felt was flippant. But I'm actually glad you brought it up, because it is so important.
So let's talk about the issue of importance here then. Human trafficking. Let's make that the focus. What can we as a society do to end it?
It's a weird one because as far as I can tell literally everyone hates it. It's a fairly non-partisan issue. However at the same time it's also a topic that has pretty much never gotten presidential air time (either right or left).
Hell. Let's even look at it as an immigration issue. So what immigration reforms could realistically help eliminate human trafficking?
As for my "hatred" of the south it's not that at all. I've lived in Texas my entire life and I consider myself a southerner. Well Texan really (we are measurably better than your average southerner. It is known.). But when it comes to the Deep South I don't hate them, I feel pity for them. They are constantly at the bottom of the heap and lied to repeatedly, tricked into voting against their own self interests.
And I don't get how, as a fiscal libertarian you can't see their issues (and the other economically fucked states you listed) as being a more important issue than the illegal immigration that isn't occurring in any of those areas (maybe some Trailer Park Boys sneaking into Maine?)
Your arguments and priorities don't match your own stated ideology. A is A. Maybe I've mischaracterized your ideology.
And I cant really tell what you're talking about here:
Could you explain what you mean here? There's a lot of words but I sincerely can't parse how they are an argument. Don't mean that as a troll, I just don't understand what you are saying here.
But you are right that I got emotional last night. You brought up an incredibly dark topic in a way I felt was flippant. But I'm actually glad you brought it up, because it is so important.
So let's talk about the issue of importance here then. Human trafficking. Let's make that the focus. What can we as a society do to end it?
It's a weird one because as far as I can tell literally everyone hates it. It's a fairly non-partisan issue. However at the same time it's also a topic that has pretty much never gotten presidential air time (either right or left).
Hell. Let's even look at it as an immigration issue. So what immigration reforms could realistically help eliminate human trafficking?
Necronic
Staff member
I'll give you some personal steps I have taken. As I mentioned my wife works with children in Juvie.
A large portion of the girls there have been trafficked (side note, these are citizens). One girl, a genuine "featherwood" was being trafficked by her Arian Natiom grandfather.
She also does a lot of academic research on this as part of her PhD. In our house the book "How to tell if a child is being developed by a Pimp" was a coffee table book for a few weeks.
About a month or two ago my wife started really talking to me about this and made it clear that she was no longer ok with pornography. She painstakingly convinced me that it is too difficult to tell of the girls online are there through coercion or not, especially with international stuff.
So I gave it up. This was/is...hard for me (no pun intended). But I do truly believe that there is enough exploitation peppered through the porn industry that I can no longer normalize it.
Erotica/stories/comics are still fine, and 3D stuff has actually gotten pretty good, So I've completely changed my diet.
This is a real step we could all take to really help mitigate trafficking.[DOUBLEPOST=1487439274,1487438736][/DOUBLEPOST]Another thing is to stop normalizing some of the other "lesser" types of trafficking. One of those would be the so-called "rub and tug"/"jack shack". These places are like locusts in Houston. They are everywhere and it's really disheartening to hear people talk so dismissively/casually about them. They are extreme hotbeds of trafficking.
Then of course there is the concept of ethical purchasing. There are many many different organizations that review companies and look at their supply chain and report when slavery or human rights violations take place in their manufacturing.
Nestle gets hit for this once every few years or so it seems, and the clothing industry is absolutely rife with it. While Ivanka caught some hell for it the reality is that the vast majority of our clothes come from very questionable labor.
This is one I honestly have never been good at. I hear about Nestle slave labor and I find myself the next week eating something of theirs. Or buying a suit or a shirt made somewhere I know has questionable roots. It's something I could do much better at.
What are some other types of trafficking and things we could do to fight against it? This (legitimately) is a very important issue.
A large portion of the girls there have been trafficked (side note, these are citizens). One girl, a genuine "featherwood" was being trafficked by her Arian Natiom grandfather.
She also does a lot of academic research on this as part of her PhD. In our house the book "How to tell if a child is being developed by a Pimp" was a coffee table book for a few weeks.
About a month or two ago my wife started really talking to me about this and made it clear that she was no longer ok with pornography. She painstakingly convinced me that it is too difficult to tell of the girls online are there through coercion or not, especially with international stuff.
So I gave it up. This was/is...hard for me (no pun intended). But I do truly believe that there is enough exploitation peppered through the porn industry that I can no longer normalize it.
Erotica/stories/comics are still fine, and 3D stuff has actually gotten pretty good, So I've completely changed my diet.
This is a real step we could all take to really help mitigate trafficking.[DOUBLEPOST=1487439274,1487438736][/DOUBLEPOST]Another thing is to stop normalizing some of the other "lesser" types of trafficking. One of those would be the so-called "rub and tug"/"jack shack". These places are like locusts in Houston. They are everywhere and it's really disheartening to hear people talk so dismissively/casually about them. They are extreme hotbeds of trafficking.
Then of course there is the concept of ethical purchasing. There are many many different organizations that review companies and look at their supply chain and report when slavery or human rights violations take place in their manufacturing.
Nestle gets hit for this once every few years or so it seems, and the clothing industry is absolutely rife with it. While Ivanka caught some hell for it the reality is that the vast majority of our clothes come from very questionable labor.
This is one I honestly have never been good at. I hear about Nestle slave labor and I find myself the next week eating something of theirs. Or buying a suit or a shirt made somewhere I know has questionable roots. It's something I could do much better at.
What are some other types of trafficking and things we could do to fight against it? This (legitimately) is a very important issue.
Tell yourself whatever you want, man. I'm not addressing your argument because it had nothing to do with what I was saying. I'm not interested in playing whack-a-mole argument style
Necronic
Staff member
Here's another fun one. A lot of modeling agencies target either domestic or foreign women and often control so much of their lives and legal statuses that it starts looking a lot like traffickimg. There are of course legitimate modeling agencies that don't do this. The CEO of Ford Models recognized that this seemed really sketchy and took it on as a corporate mission to ensure that this didn't happen in her agency.
But it happens in other places all the time. Some stories of sexual trafficking in the modeling industry here
https://ourrescue.org/blog/sex-trafficking-in-the-modeling-industry/
And some stories of financially exploitative/non-sexual modeling industry trafficking here (with some illegal immigration stuff thrown in as well)
http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/donald-trump-model-management-illegal-immigration
But it happens in other places all the time. Some stories of sexual trafficking in the modeling industry here
https://ourrescue.org/blog/sex-trafficking-in-the-modeling-industry/
And some stories of financially exploitative/non-sexual modeling industry trafficking here (with some illegal immigration stuff thrown in as well)
http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/donald-trump-model-management-illegal-immigration
The reason it's so difficult to keep track of everything is because the practice is so dang pervasive. The sheer amount of textile/agriculture/labor "slavery" (both overt and covert) is so vast that avoiding its taint is about as easy as not stepping in dog poo in a city park in Springtime.
--Patrick
GasBandit
Staff member
"That happens quite often, and yet people are always surprised!"
I, too, make the distinction between the south and the southwest, of which I opine Texas to be part.
Such is the lot of the impoverished everywhere, not just in the south. It's been a large source of the democrat power base, really, despite democrat policy often harming most that which it purports to help.
It's not that I see one as more important than the other, it's that I see the data as unconnected. That South Carolina gets more federal dollars than it contributes does not mean that illegal immigration is not a problem, or that it needs not be addressed. The ratio of federal dollars in and out of a state is not really a valid indicator of the impact of illegal immigration, nor do I think it should be used as a meterstick for whose problems should be addressed first.
Granted, illegal immigration is a problem getting a disproportionate amount of press time and blame lately, but it is still something that has needed addressing for a long time. And really, the panicked handwringing over recent ICE enforcement efforts is similarly inflated, given that it is much the same as what had been going on during the Obama administration - it's just that now Trump is in charge, A is no longer A, A used to be de riguer enforcement, but now A is apparently a sign of fascism on the march.
I didn't mean to be flippant but perhaps I came off that way - I'm told I often do, even in person.
This comes back to what I was saying we really need to do - sour the milk. People are willing to immigrate illegally because of two factors: first, they believe there is gain to be had that is worth the risk, and second, they believe there are those that will shelter them from immigration enforcement (or turn a blind eye at the least, for various reasons). We need to focus on the enablers and the exploiters - increased scrutiny of those who would employ, exploit, traffic or otherwise harbor foreign nationals within our borders, and increased penalties on them.
First, we need to make it a completely unpalatable proposition for an American business to employ somone in the country illegally. Fines and other such penalties have clearly not done the job. Prison time would probably do the trick. For the employer, that is, not the illegal alien. Stiff penalties should also apply to those higher up the managerial chain from the one actually hiring illegals, if such a structure exists, so that upper management will be forced to audit and monitor hiring practices more closely, and have no plausible deniability of what is going on "under their watch."
In a similar vein, penalties for human trafficking should also be increased to draconian levels. The name of the game here is to make the reward not worth the risk.
See, the way to deal with illegal immigration and human trafficking is not to chastise those who dash across the border at night in ones and twos, but to go after the structure, those who profit off of providing the incentive. And to go after it so hard, and punish so heavily, that someone would have to be crazy to consider using illegal labor, be it agriculturally or sexually.
Once that happens, word will get out at the lack of opportunity for illegal profit, and the flow will reverse. Less will come, and those here already will begin to self-deport. Human traffickers will be more hesitant when they know getting caught could mean such severe punishment, and they would also find less willing dupes abroad when it becomes known that the US is taking illegal labor exploitation more seriously.
Also, legalizing prostitution wouldn't hurt. Much in the same way legalizing marijuana has drastically reduced the illegal marijuana trade (and the profits to criminal enterprises that entails), ending the stigma and legal prohibition against the world's oldest profession would go a long way to undermining the root institutions of human trafficking.
Necronic
Staff member
As an aside...
Not saying there's anything wrong with internet research or anything. It's how I saw this. But come on man....that's just lazy.[DOUBLEPOST=1487442401,1487442153][/DOUBLEPOST]
Dude. Did you just straigh up plagiarize the first sentence of the first google result when you search "Illegal Immigration Human Trafficking"?
Not saying there's anything wrong with internet research or anything. It's how I saw this. But come on man....that's just lazy.[DOUBLEPOST=1487442401,1487442153][/DOUBLEPOST]
I get the logic here but I'm just not sure how well it would work. I really don't know if it's at all possible for prostitution to actually be non-exploitative regardless of how it's handled. And as far as political suicide goes this is akin to sucking off a howitzer.
GasBandit
Staff member
Dangit, I meant for that sentence to be a link, like the others. I'll fix it.
Holland seems to do fairly well at this, and we even have small testbeds ourselves, such as around Las Vegas.
As for political fallout, hopefully that will change. 10 years ago, the same was said of Marijuana, after all.
Necronic
Staff member
Fair enough. The problem is what I talked about with pornography. See porn is already legal. Yet it's well understood to have an incredibly dark side to it. Same with strip clubs and whatnot.
There's something just incredibly dehumanizing about sex work, legal or not. I think that it's something that we men have a bit of a blind spot on. I dunno. But most every form of legal sex work right now is pretty ugly as is.
There's something just incredibly dehumanizing about sex work, legal or not. I think that it's something that we men have a bit of a blind spot on. I dunno. But most every form of legal sex work right now is pretty ugly as is.
Just watch porn that doesn't have any kind of sex in it. Problem solved.
Ah yes, the same law as the "rest of the world", because all other countries have the same laws... those silly non-americans.
Oh, you'll be seeing it a lot more...
Oh, they target people who are afraid to go to the police because they might get deported and end up even worse off?
Man, if there was only some way to avoid that happening... maybe some sort of sanctuary type deal.
...
But anyway, stopping illegal immigration won't much help those vulnerable people, they'll just get abused in Mexico instead. And fixing Mexico would likely stem illegal immigration from there too. So i guess what i'm saying is STOP THE WAR ON DRUGS ALREADY.
Please... it's spelt "erotica".
Ah, i see where the disconnect is.
Gas' statement implied the same conditions would work with legal immigrants (which i, as a european commie assume would get paid min wage), and thus the agricultural situation would not change if they where legal. And i took that as what you where talking about (hence my use of " which clearly implies all the ones in agri should b legal.").
Reading Null's response again that's clearly me reading too much into it (even if that's what he meant, one could not conclude that based on what he wrote).
As someone with some experience about having very strict laws while everyone breaks them anyway because we're all too used to stealing (the head of the party currently in power, who can't hold office because of a prior conviction - not that they didn't past an emergency law thing to reverse that which got a lot of people out to protest, which lead to taking it back while saying they'll still try to pass it like a normal law - actually said it's "either bread or handcuffs" while most of our politicians have multiple villas), i can assure you that harsher laws won't do shit...
The issue isn't the fine's not working , i'm willing to bet you anything that it's the fact that they're not actually being enforced at an actual level that has any impact.
Shit, I thought my point didn't need to be said earlier. I was wrong. My apologies.
GasBandit
Staff member
I don't think you quite understood the point I was making there. A lot of the democrat argument for stricter gun control and increasingly socialized health care is that "literally all of the rest of the civilized world does this, why do we have to be so backwards" and yet the rest of the world also has much tighter immigration controls and much less leniency on illegal aliens (especially Mexico), but suddenly the "rest of the world" comparison no longer applies there. I was highlighting the inconstancy, not actually saying we should be more like the rest of the world for its own sake.
Absolutely not. Sanctuary cities are currently one of the great instances of "constitutional dissonance," and part of what encourages further illegal immigration. Government officials must enforce the law or step down, same as Kim Davis. If officials pick and choose what they will enforce and what they won't, the rule of law - which is the very foundation of our country - crumbles. That way lies either anarchy or despotism.
Absolutely. I agree 100%.
I'd like to think we're not as bad off as Romania, but the pessimist in me says we're as like heading that way more each day, in which case this entire thread is moot, as laws will cease to have meaning and collapse will be imminent.
And the quickest way to end illegal immigrant labor would be to go after the people that knowingly hire them . . .
In further agreement with Gas's point here, do those who think that sanctuary cities are a good thing also believe that they can pick and choose which laws they themselves should obey? Do you have a right and/or responsibility to disobey laws that you see as unjust or wrong? Thus anybody enforcing said laws is also wrong?
That's not rule of law, that's rule of those who agree with you. That's a trend we're seeing with increasing frequency in the "western world" with laws, in that those who want them changed disobey them, rather than taking them through legislatures and/or courts. And given the widening "latitude" with which judges are interpreting law, it's going away from interpretation, and more towards "this law means what I think it does." No I'm not exaggerating there, as that's explicitly been ruled upon. All of this combined turns rule-of-law into "rule of those who agree at the time." This precise thing is why Supreme Court compositions is seen (and is) so important, because your (and my) country has moved away from rule of law, to rule of those who agree.
And that's f'n scary. That's inches (or perhaps no different) than places where it's who you know to get away with whatever crimes you want.
That's not scary Eriol. Scary is to NOT disobey laws which we see as unjust.
I feel like this is veering off topic, but since we're talking of generalities now, absolutely this. Unjust laws should be disobeyed. To quote MLK, everything Hitler did was legal.
As Kim Davis did? She didn't see the Obergefell ruling as just, so she disobeyed. By your logic, she was every bit as right as those who refuse to obey immigration law - or marijuana policy. To say otherwise is to get into Eriol's territory of "rule of those who agree."
I think your statement is more properly emphasized as "Scary is to not disobey laws which WE see as unjust."
That depends on how you define just. To again quote MLK, because he said it far better than I ever could:
“Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust.”
A
Anonymous
Anonymous
My thoughts on Kim Davis is that if you have a job, do your job or get fired. No one's stopping her from feeling the way she does about homosexuality, but she had a job, which she was being paid to do, and refusing to do it. There are lot of people who feel uncomfortable about shit that goes on with their jobs, plenty in the field of enforcing immigration law, but they still do it. If it bothers a person that much, quit and get a new job.