Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

You mean something I said toward the end of a 10 year cooling trend? I thought it wasn't a sin to change one's position based on new evidence. Now it is?
What cooling trend?

But anyway, the actual idea was that it's not really a change in one's position when the new evidence only makes you find new arguments to support your previous positions on the issue (just form another angle).



This is barely worth a response. No, I'm showing that warming can occur for reasons other than anthropogenic CO2.
So in other words, then yes: "you're trying to prove weather exists by referencing another planet?"

I mean what are you arguing against, who said you can't have warming without humans?



You're making a nonsense pseudoscientific quasi-point here. Are you really asserting that the primary danger of atmospheric CO2 is to human lungs?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

You're the one that claimed you breathing CO2 right now isn't harming you...

And how is CO2 poisoning pseudoscientific?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
The "hiatus."

From the paper:
"Despite the continued increase of atmospheric greenhouse gases, the
annual-mean global temperature has not risen in this century"

Which obviously was over by 2016, when the story in your link was published.

So in other words, then yes: "you're trying to prove weather exists by referencing another planet?"
Just repeating yourself because you don't understand (or refuse to understand) doesn't work.

I mean what are you arguing against, who said you can't have warming without humans?
That's the whole basis of the "anthropogenic climate change" argument. That if humans weren't pumping out all this CO2, the earth wouldn't be getting warmer.

You're the one that claimed you breathing CO2 right now isn't harming you...
And it isn't.

Because you seem to think that atmospheric CO2 will rise to levels that will cause CO2 poisoning in humans, which is, frankly, idiotic.
 
atmospheric CO2 will rise to levels that will cause CO2 poisoning in humans, which is, frankly, idiotic.
According to other Internet, current CO2 concentration is about 0.4% of the air we breathe.
CO2 toxicity is a real thing and has happened in isolated incidents (see the term "Mazuku" for examples).
However, it takes a CO2 concentration of right around 1% before people start feeling uncomfortable/anxious (you can simulate this by breathing in the pocket of CO2 sitting on top of your next pop/soda/beer), but it looks like long-term effects don't start piling up until it goes above 3-4% concentration ("Hypercapnia").

--Patrick
 
The "hiatus."

From the paper:
"Despite the continued increase of atmospheric greenhouse gases, the
annual-mean global temperature has not risen in this century"

Which obviously was over by 2016, when the story in your link was published.

Yeah... as your link says, there wasn't a cooling trend, just a lack of warming...



That's the whole basis of the "anthropogenic climate change" argument. That if humans weren't pumping out all this CO2, the earth wouldn't be getting warmer.
You know, maybe you should try not to assume what other people are saying is there for you to just interpret in a way that helps your argument.

It's like finding a corpse full of bullet holes, and saying your great-grandfather dies of old age, so we can't know if it was murder yet.

Unless your arguing, like some of those scientists you linked too are, that the same thing warming Mars up is also warming the Earth, mentioning Mars is rather irrelevant, since no one is arguing that it's impossible for the planet to get warmer without human help.



Because you seem to think that atmospheric CO2 will rise to levels that will cause CO2 poisoning in humans, which is, frankly, idiotic.
Yeah, obviously i couldn't have just be pointing out the flaw in your logic about how "I'm breathing CO2 now, so obviously it's harmless". Nope, i 100% must have been saying we should only worry about it when it makes the atmosphere unbreathable...
 
Gas is just putting out an "everything's fine" argument to trick us into offing ourselves.

He's trying to save the planet by ridding it of humans. He is a nature-lover all along and that is how he should always be thought of and remembered from this moment forward.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Yeah... as your link says, there wasn't a cooling trend, just a lack of warming...



Unless your arguing, like some of those scientists you linked too are, that the same thing warming Mars up is also warming the Earth, mentioning Mars is rather irrelevant, since no one is arguing that it's impossible for the planet to get warmer without human help.
Actually, that *is* the argument - that if not for Anthro CO2, the earth would not be getting warmer, and thus we have to stop generating CO2.

Yeah, obviously i couldn't have just be pointing out the flaw in your logic about how "I'm breathing CO2 now, so obviously it's harmless". Nope, i 100% must have been saying we should only worry about it when it makes the atmosphere unbreathable...
I can't believe I'm gonna have to do this. It's been years since I've had to go back and show somebody the you-said-I-said trail, but here we go.

You said:
The good thing is that not polluting, even if it's just locally, has easily provable advantages, even if climate change is just a chinese hoax. Ask your lungs.
Then I said:
Well, if we're talking mercury, sulphur, carbon monoxide and such, definitely all for not belching that out. But let me tell you something - I'm breathing in quite a bit of CO2 mixed with the rest of the air right now, and my lungs are fine.
Then YOU said:
Clearly you should up the dosage... im sure nothing bad will happen to you.
Then I said:
You're making a nonsense pseudoscientific quasi-point here. Are you really asserting that the primary danger of atmospheric CO2 is to human lungs?
Then you said:
You're the one that claimed you breathing CO2 right now isn't harming you...
Nitrogen is harmless. I've inhaled more nitrogen than oxygen, every minute of my life. But yes, put me in a pure nitrogen environment and yes, it's a problem. Water is harmless - in fact it is essential. I'm breathing water vapor right night now. Breathing too much water will kill me. Yes, if you put me in a spaceship and turn off the CO2 filters, I'm in trouble. However here on Earth, it's gonna take some sort of greater cataclysm to push CO2 levels to levels toxic to humans (one that will render CO2 toxicity kinda moot), so arguing that CO2 is a pollutant like mercury, sulphur, or carbon monoxide based on how they affect my lungs is nonsense.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Gas is just putting out an "everything's fine" argument to trick us into offing ourselves.

He's trying to save the planet by ridding it of humans. He is a nature-lover all along and that is how he should always be thought of and remembered from this moment forward.
That's ridiculous. I've never...

GasBandit for years has said:
The problem is there's just too many goddamned people on this planet.
I uh..

GasBandit for years has said:
What we really need is another world war to thin out the herd.
But...

GasBandit for years has said:
We're overdue for the next great plague to come along and kill off most of humanity.
Now, hang on a sec...

GasBandit for years has said:
I'm going to kill you all.
Jibbers Crabst, it's true... it explains so much.
 
That's ridiculous. I've never...
I uh..
But...
Now, hang on a sec...
Jibbers Crabst, it's true... it explains so much.
Gas, I'll be the first to agree with you that the planet could benefit from a huge reduction in human population, but it would likely be considered unethical to contribute to that reduction.
This is also a discussion we have had before, one which had certain people calling me a "monster" for even suggesting there could be any benefit to such a Bender-esque idea.

--Patrick
 
Gas, I'll be the first to agree with you that the planet could benefit from a huge reduction in human population, but it would likely be considered unethical to contribute to that reduction.
well, we could reduce the population by sending half the population to Mars. I hear our terraforming efforts are warming it up nicely.
 
There's literally nothing that disgusts me more than private prisons.
Not to mention it makes absolutely NO FUCKING SENSE to lock up people here illegally. If you complain about their affect on society and then LOCK THEM UP TO BE UNPRODUCTIVE, you have lost all right to bitch.
 
Not to mention it makes absolutely NO FUCKING SENSE to lock up people here illegally. If you complain about their affect on society and then LOCK THEM UP TO BE UNPRODUCTIVE, you have lost all right to bitch.
My understanding is the choices on this topic are as follows:
  1. Ignore the law and just don't enforce immigration laws, thus nobody's arrested in the first place.
  2. Ignore the due process part of the law, thus just deporting people summarily.
  3. Enforce the law as written and detain people until they get an immigration hearing.
If I'm missing an option here, please say so, and/or present the alternative I missed.


Agreed the private part is bullshit though. Private involvement in anything government-related needs HEAVY oversight, which they often don't get, leading to the abuses (especially in the prison system). Theoretically just about anything government-related could be done by private industry with sufficient oversight, but when it's been demonstrated many times over that such oversight isn't working, go back to internal employees.

To persuade the business-types in government, compare it to outsourcing. If you start getting back too many WTFs in your stuff, you need to bring the process back to internal.
 
My understanding is the choices on this topic are as follows:
  1. Ignore the law and just don't enforce immigration laws, thus nobody's arrested in the first place.
  2. Ignore the due process part of the law, thus just deporting people summarily.
  3. Enforce the law as written and detain people until they get an immigration hearing.
If I'm missing an option here, please say so, and/or present the alternative I missed.


Agreed the private part is bullshit though. Private involvement in anything government-related needs HEAVY oversight, which they often don't get, leading to the abuses (especially in the prison system). Theoretically just about anything government-related could be done by private industry with sufficient oversight, but when it's been demonstrated many times over that such oversight isn't working, go back to internal employees.

To persuade the business-types in government, compare it to outsourcing. If you start getting back too many WTFs in your stuff, you need to bring the process back to internal.
No, you're not missing anything here, though I'd think there can be some middle ground between 1 and 3, with an examination on just how useful immigration law is to begin with.

Entering the United States illegally is a criminal offense, but overstaying your visa is a civil offense.


"Improper Entry Is a Crime
To be clear, the most common crime associated with illegal immigration is likely improper entry. Under federal criminal law, it is misdemeanor for an alien (i.e., a non-citizen) to:
  • Enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other than designated by immigration officers;
  • Elude examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
  • Attempt to enter or obtain entry to the United States by willfully concealing, falsifying, or misrepresenting material facts.
The punishment under this federal law is no more than six months of incarceration and up to $250 in civil penalties for each illegal entry. These acts of improper entry -- including the mythic "border jumping" -- are criminal acts associated with illegally immigrating to the United States.
Like all other criminal charges in the United States, improper entry must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict."

Unlawful Presence Is Not a Crime
Some may assume that all immigrants who are in the United States without legal status must have committed improper entry. This simply isn't the case. Many foreign nationals legally enter the country on a valid work or travel visa, but fail to exit before their visa expires for a variety of reasons.
But mere unlawful presence in the country is not a crime. It is a violation of federal immigration law to remain in the country without legal authorization, but this violation is punishable by civil penalties, not criminal. Chief among these civil penalties is deportation or removal, where an unlawful resident may be detained and removed from the country. Unlawful presence can also have negative consequences for a resident who may seek to gain re-entry into the United States, or permanent residency.
Both improper entry and unlawful presence should be avoided by any immigrant to the United States, but an illegal alien cannot be criminally charged or incarcerated simply for being undocumented. To learn more, check out FindLaw's section on Immigration Law.
- See more at: http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/20...v-unlawful-presence.html#sthash.ZD4Bhvk6.dpuf



So the situation is this- We are locking up many people who we cannot prove committed a crime (border jumping).

And yes, private prisons are the worst. They create incentives for cost cutting while at the same time encourage increased incarceration of the population. It's an insane business model.
 
And yes, private prisons are the worst. They create incentives for cost cutting while at the same time encourage increased incarceration of the population. It's an insane business model.
Hell, they created incentives for a couple of PA judges to simply sell kids to the private prisons.
 
Yeah, it's like the wording of an argument matters. Crazy, i know.


Actually, that *is* the argument - that if not for Anthro CO2, the earth would not be getting warmer, and thus we have to stop generating CO2.
Once again, that does not mean the Earth can't get warmer "on it's own", thus bringing up Mars is pointless.


I can't believe I'm gonna have to do this. It's been years since I've had to go back and show somebody the you-said-I-said trail, but here we go.

You said:

Then I said:

Then YOU said:

Then I said:

Then you said:


Nitrogen is harmless. I've inhaled more nitrogen than oxygen, every minute of my life. But yes, put me in a pure nitrogen environment and yes, it's a problem. Water is harmless - in fact it is essential. I'm breathing water vapor right night now. Breathing too much water will kill me. Yes, if you put me in a spaceship and turn off the CO2 filters, I'm in trouble. However here on Earth, it's gonna take some sort of greater cataclysm to push CO2 levels to levels toxic to humans (one that will render CO2 toxicity kinda moot), so arguing that CO2 is a pollutant like mercury, sulphur, or carbon monoxide based on how they affect my lungs is nonsense.

So now you don't believe in local pollution being a problem (i do recall you once, years ago, claiming only local pollution is, because the Earth is big or something)?

Point was that you can't just dismiss it as "never a problem", like it sounded you did.

...

I mean what if you lived near a damn and, instead of "wasting" money on a spillway, they'd just not care if sometimes it overflowed into your house... it's just small amounts that won't even lower your house's value by much...

"Not as bad as worst pollutants" is not a good argument for something not being bad. I mean we live with mercury and radioactive materials in us just fine, so it's always about quantity in the end.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Yeah, it's like the wording of an argument matters. Crazy, i know.
"I didn't not clean my room, mom."

Once again, that does not mean the Earth can't get warmer "on it's own", thus bringing up Mars is pointless.
Except the argument is whether or not the Earth IS getting warmer "on its own" so looking at the climate behavior of the neighbors is pertinent.

So now you don't believe in local pollution being a problem?
Now you're just making stuff up. I don't know if this is a language barrier issue, or insanity, or what.

Point was that you can't just dismiss it as "never a problem", like it sounded you did.
CO2 toxicity is not a problem worth considering for the purposes of this argument, because if the atmosphere becomes so heavy with CO2 that it becomes toxic to humans, it won't be anthropogenic in origin, and will be a minor side effect of some other extinction-level circumstance. It's a complete and utter red herring.

I mean what if you lived near a damn and, instead of "wasting" money on a spillway, they'd just not care if sometimes it overflowed into your house... it's just small amounts that won't even lower your house's value by much...
Either I'm not grasping your metaphor, or it is completely invalid.

"Not as bad as worst pollutants" is not a good argument for something not being bad. I mean we live with mercury and radioactive materials in us just fine, so it's always about quantity in the end.
There is a vast difference in the scales involved. Additionally, we live just fine with water in us, but can die from water intoxication, and that doesn't make water "pollution."
 
It really says "Greatest" in the title? At least now you know how it is to deal with politicians in latinamerica.
 
Except the argument is whether or not the Earth IS getting warmer "on its own" so looking at the climate behavior of the neighbors is pertinent.
Again, unless your argument is about some sort of solar/cosmic influence causing the warming, it's really not pertinent. (and, as i pointed out before, that would require all the other planets to also warm up, unless Silver Surfer is making sure Galactus' meal is luke warm, with Mars as a snack).


Now you're just making stuff up. I don't know if this is a language barrier issue, or insanity, or what.
Haven't you heard? I'm cuckoo for cocoa puffs...

Or, you know, i was taking issue with you assuming it can only be harmful if it's everywhere in too high concentrations.

CO2 toxicity is not a problem worth considering for the purposes of this argument, because if the atmosphere becomes so heavy with CO2 that it becomes toxic to humans, it won't be anthropogenic in origin, and will be a minor side effect of some other extinction-level circumstance.
See, that's the issue, that you're arguing it's only an issue if the CO2 is a global problem.

Like PatrThom posted, it can also be a local issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazuku


It's a complete and utter red herring.
Nah, you're thinking of communism.

Additionally, we live just fine with water in us, but can die from water intoxication, and that doesn't make water "pollution."
Ok, i'll give you that one. But i still doubt that one would like living near a CO2 producing plant once the EPA goes away.
 
Quackery Exposed: 'Scientific quackery': UBC study says it's debunked controversial MS procedure

That they got permission to do Sham Surgery is something in itself, but it's needed to debunk some of the worst crap out there, so all the better that they did it.

I feel bad for the people though. Placebo effect is a thing, but these people ARE suffering in the meantime. I worked with a guy who had MS, and so I feel for each person who goes through it. I'm sure it's horrible to lose control of your body.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
See, that's the issue, that you're arguing it's only an issue if the CO2 is a global problem.

Like PatrThom posted, it can also be a local issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazuku
A Mazuku is a natural phenomenon, though. One extremely unlikely to be replicated by artificial means, as most exhaust is expelled in such a way as to try to get it as high up as possible, and disperse as widely as possible, because of the way environmental regulations measure pollution density. Building taller smokestacks and all that stuff.

Nah, you're thinking of communism.
Remind me not to send you any telegrams.

Ok, i'll give you that one. But i still doubt that one would like living near a CO2 producing plant once the EPA goes away.
That may be, but I think the main unpleasantness will come from other things well before the CO2 output becomes a factor. After all, I don't think CO2 is the only thing to come out of the furnaces of those places, and when I'm on a busy street choked with cars, it's not the CO2 that makes me roll up the windows and switch the AC to recirculate.
 
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