GasBandit
Staff member
Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats
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Sen. Franken accused of Sexual Misconduct/Assault - With picture!
That article is by the woman who accuses him, and is in the picture.
That article is by the woman who accuses him, and is in the picture.
I doubt it.
It is hard to call it groping when he didn't touch her. But the "practice kiss" sounds a bit skeevy. But that is a long way from fucking 14 year old kids.
Plenty of politicians have gotten away with much, much worse.
When all the people involved with these scandals give up their fame then I'll believe that their contrite. They're all rich enough to live the rest of their lives outside of the public eye. When they do that, and actively turn away fame then I'll believe that they have "paid" for their crimes. Some should also face jail time, but the greater penalty for many of them is to actually be forgotten, or at least to have to turn away the thing they've pursued most of their life: fame.
Any who "confess" and then bask in the "oh they've changed" limelight haven't actually changed. All they've done is shown their victims that they won't be "taken down" and shown other victims that it is all the more useless for them to come forward.
And many will simply just get away with it with no trial whatsoever, reinforcing my last paragraph.
Others will then proceed to try (and succeed) to ruin the lives of their accusers, while remaining famous, again, reinforcing the last two paragraphs.
When the most famous are taken down for their crimes (abuse of power for "consentual" sex is also a crime, both literally in some places, and ethically in others) and disavowed for being terrible people, then maybe we'll have change.
This isn't it. If Franken was genuinely sorry, he'd be a HELL of a lot more contrite. He's not, he'll still be around, as will the cadres of other abusers.
Dave
Staff member
Amazing. She’s a tea party woman who has been on Hannity and Roger Stone and InfoWars has the information before she released it. Franklin is calling for an ethics investigation on himself.
Seen the picture, heard the story, seen the reactions. I believe this is a coordinated attack smear campaign on Franken to detract from Moore and the ridiculously abhorrent tax plan the right is pushing through regardless of who it hurts. Right now proven Russian troll farms are tweeting and posting and pushing the narrative against Franken. This is a bullshit cynical move and their base will eat it up because they are fucking stupid.
Seen the picture, heard the story, seen the reactions. I believe this is a coordinated attack smear campaign on Franken to detract from Moore and the ridiculously abhorrent tax plan the right is pushing through regardless of who it hurts. Right now proven Russian troll farms are tweeting and posting and pushing the narrative against Franken. This is a bullshit cynical move and their base will eat it up because they are fucking stupid.
Here's a quick little flowchart for you to cut out the BS involved:
1. Does the accused admit to the offense? If No, proceed to 2. If Yes, proceed to 3
2. It's complicated now. Evidence, believability, etc. NO CLEAR ACTION. If you believe one side, then publicly say so.
3. Perp did it. Bring the f'n hammer down on them. Publicly. Denounce said perpetrator.
What's the situation for Franken? He himself admits to the actions, plus a clear photograph of him doing bad shit. There is no excuse.
What possible defense is there here beyond "other person did bad too!!"? C'mon @Dave, he should be resigning. Anything less and he's a fucking hypocrite. In the Moore case he denies it. As I said in the flowchart above, it's now complicated a response. Now I think Moore is guilty as sin, but it must be treated differently than somebody who says "ya I did it." Do NOT give them credit for it beyond possibly not charging them (up to the victim IMO). Unless they get out of the public eye now and forever as their final act of decency, the perpetrator is just milking publicity for themselves.
IMO the perpetrator's only choice to "redeem" themselves is to withdraw from public life, denouncing their own actions and others'. Their penalty is obscurity, plus whatever a court says if they're charged. This is somewhat related to the push to have Murderers names not mentioned as much in the media, and only making their victims' names public. Very related.
Should Ellen be run out of town for this too?
Well, we've reached the point where air-groping (no contact over clothing) is assault, so staring could be right around the corner, I guess.
Should I have read that Al Franken thing closer than I did?
To me the Ellen photo is the exact same thing as Al Franken's. They are both using a woman as an object (prop) for a tasteless joke.
Does Katie Perry think it is ok? Franken's victim didn't even have the choice, she was sleeping. And rebuked him for the forced kiss. Not the same at all.
Why are you defending the slime? He's admitted his guilt. It's just now what punishment he should have. Or do you not think he should be punished?
I don't care if Katie is fine with it or not, that picture is sexual harassment. Al's picture is sexual harassment. But if that is the 'evidence' of a grope, then that did not happen. His hands are not even touching the tactical vest.
If somebody does not disagree around here it becomes an echo chamber.
Consent is a pretty important part of what constitutes sexual harassment.
I agree, but in context your statement suggests that
1. Ellen must have obtained consent prior to her act, and was not in a position to exert any power over her victim
2. Staring requires consent
I guess #1 could be true, but it doesn't seem like something Ellen would do given her penchant for surprising guests and practical jokes. Perhaps she and Katy know each other well enough that she knew she'd be ok, but you could also wonder if Ellen was in a position of power (whether to bring Katy back to her show or feature her music in the future, or speak poorly of her or worse to her audience) and thus Katy better be ok with it because there'd be consequences if not.
I think, however, that @sixpackshaker's point is more about #2. Overt gestures being considered assault?
Further, doesn't this then water down or demean physically violent assaults? Yes, it's bringing light to a dark corner that needs light, and if we can get rid of the small offenses then the big ones should decrease, but the assault was the kiss, and the picture evidence is weak.
Unless we really are prepared to attack celebrities like Ellen, who, in a position to hurt Katy's career, could have obtained all the consent legally required but still be considered assaulting Katy by staring at her cleavage.
I do know, however, that simply speaking up and sharing a hypothetical situation in order to cast a different perspective is going to get my head bit off. I don't have a horse in the race - I don't think any of them should have done any of these things, and they all deserve more or less punishment (as long as it leads to a sincere change in their behavior) for their varying degrees of taking advantage of other humans. I'm not interested in discussing Ellen to defend whats-his-name which I guess is a play to take the light off another whats-his-name. Who cares who did what, if someone comes forward with information of an assault then we need to deal with that, we can't just dismiss it because CONSPIRACY.
I don't think of it as assault. It is harassment. It is the splitting hairs that I always get into. Harassment is wrong. But I have not heard that Al has a history of performing harassing behavior. This can change, just look a Roy Moore or Louis CK. When someone is brave enough to come forward, then if they have the history the other victims will come out in droves.
Was there motorboating going on in this picture? Because if so, people have been doing it really wrong.
Dave
Staff member
One politically motivated accusation does not a pattern of abuse or misogyny make, no matter how much you want it to be. Step down over this? Fuck off. Just because you want more of your people in office to ruin the country in the name of the plutocracy doesn't mean that you get to dictate what's abuse (and hover hand is NOT abuse) to bolster your bullshit. This isn't even in the same ballpark as Weinstein, Polanski, or Roy Moore. Not even the same fucking sport. This is a smear campaign plain and simple. And until more women come out or corroborating evidence is brought forth, no I don't believe this is anything but that. Imagine a right wing talk show host and tea party darling making an accusation against one of the strongest and smartest liberals in Congress! What a coincidence!
edit: Oh, and the 19+ women who have come out against Trump as well. But I guess a silly picture is a fire-able offense but sexual ASSAULT and admitting to it means you can be president.
edit: Oh, and the 19+ women who have come out against Trump as well. But I guess a silly picture is a fire-able offense but sexual ASSAULT and admitting to it means you can be president.
Here's the difference.
1.) His hands are on her chest without her consent, per the victim
2.) Prior to this he forced her to kiss him and then treated her like crap when she stood up for herself (also per the victim)
If Katy Perry comes forth and says this picture was taken prior to Ellen forcably motorboating her, then it was assault.
Dave
Staff member
And now she's had a press conference and is backpedaling. What a surprise.
In other news:
A total of 210,000 gallons of oil leaked Thursday from the Keystone Pipeline in South Dakota, the pipeline's operator, TransCanada, said.
Crews shut down the pipeline Thursday morning, and officials are investigating the cause of the leak.
This is the largest Keystone oil spill to date in South Dakota, said Brian Walsh, a spokesman for the state's Department of Environment and Natural Resources.
In other news:
A total of 210,000 gallons of oil leaked Thursday from the Keystone Pipeline in South Dakota, the pipeline's operator, TransCanada, said.
Crews shut down the pipeline Thursday morning, and officials are investigating the cause of the leak.
This is the largest Keystone oil spill to date in South Dakota, said Brian Walsh, a spokesman for the state's Department of Environment and Natural Resources.
I'm sorry, what is she backpedaling on?
She didn't backpedal per say, she accepted his apology and said she didn't want him to step down. Take that as you will.
Weird.
Sigh. Ok, here are my thoughts- That was stupid of him, and absolutely wrong. No excuses, wrong. If action needs taking, I hope it is on a level appropriate for his actions.
And it has nothing to do with what others did. I'm not playing the Yes But What About game. Time for people to examine their actions and make amends. I know I've not been perfect and I often wonder if I've wronged someone in the past. More and more I hope I haven't done anything I will come to regret, any more than I already look back and think "What a fucking idiot kid I was".
I have to say that I am on board with some form of discipline for an instance of bad judgement on Al’s part.
But to suggest that it is appropriate for his life and career to be placed on death row for this single incident is pure histrionics. If it is discovered that this is NOT an isolated incident, then that is a different matter, but how could this be seen as anything other than a calculated political attack? For most everyone, it would take very little twisting to take anything that might otherwise be termed someone’s “failed relationship” and repackage it as the Sexual Scandal Du Jour, especially if there are multiple people involved.
And really, until I see that Mick Jagger is being taken to court over several thousand accusations of “predatory sexual assault,” I’m going to assume that the people being accused are being accused for some reason OTHER than a desire to legitimately mete out any sort of deserved “Justice.”
—Patrick
But to suggest that it is appropriate for his life and career to be placed on death row for this single incident is pure histrionics. If it is discovered that this is NOT an isolated incident, then that is a different matter, but how could this be seen as anything other than a calculated political attack? For most everyone, it would take very little twisting to take anything that might otherwise be termed someone’s “failed relationship” and repackage it as the Sexual Scandal Du Jour, especially if there are multiple people involved.
And really, until I see that Mick Jagger is being taken to court over several thousand accusations of “predatory sexual assault,” I’m going to assume that the people being accused are being accused for some reason OTHER than a desire to legitimately mete out any sort of deserved “Justice.”
—Patrick
Well I disagree on the degree of necessary punishment (if only to make an example) but I put it more on the victim than anybody else to say what's appropriate.
For reference, a standard train tanker car holds about 34,500 gallons, so that's just over 6 train cars worth. Imagine if it'd been a train crash and not a pipeline. They don't just have 7 on those.
What?
She could have been paid off. Or any number of other things.