Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

Actually, he said that some of the methods used by McCarthyism were bad, his comments seem to indicate that he approved of the movement as a whole. Where he draws the line between stopping communism and protecting free speech (which I assume he does support on some level) remains to be seen.
There was a lot to respond to, so I'll just go from here.

Communism is SO BAD as to justify A LOT in hunting it down and stamping it out. Kind of like how "punching Nazis" is accepted (by some at least), "punching Communists" should be just as accepted if not more so! It's THAT destructive of a system. So yes, the ends DO actually justify the means on many many things in life. Not completely, not blank check, but yes, the more the threat, the greater the response. If somebody pulls a knife, you are also justified in pulling one, if not a gun. Communism is a plague. Harsh responses ARE justified. Can it go too far? Yes it can! Did McCarthy go too far? Probably.

Just as it has been repeated here, free speech is from government reprisal, not private. Should businesses as a whole also endorse it? Yes they should, but it is MUCH more important that the government isn't curtailing it, or "encouraging" certain views via grants (or lack thereof) either. So I believe in robust freedom from government censorship, but if others say "I'm not associating with you because you're a communist, and I'm not buying your stuff either" then that's a private citizen's (or business) choice.

As for economics, Gas's point above stands. When there's robust competition, things go great. Government's main job should be intervening when things get too big for anybody but them to take down. To quote whomever said it, "Too big to fail is too big to exist." That should be the primary role of government in the economy.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Did McCarthy go too far? Probably.

...

free speech is from government reprisal, not private.

McCarthy was government reprisal. There is no "probably" about it. It definitely, 100% certain, went too far. I don't care how bad communism is, there's no justificaiton for what happened.

I don't have the energy to deal with this bullshit today.
 
US communists view the gulags as a negative. The same can't be said of Neo-Nazis and the camps. One ideology is defined by economic goals. The other is defined by racism and desire for genocide. Equating the two is ridiculous at best.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
In some hypothetical, Roddenberry future, where technology has moved us to a post-scarcity economy, and it doesn't matter if anyone works, and everyone has enough just because we've built up self-sustaining systems that provide, then communism could work and be morally acceptable.

There is no hypothetical future where the genocide that is central to Nazi ideology is acceptable.

That is the difference between the two philosophies. They may be equally flawed when applied to the real world, and the current reality of humanity and economics, but they are not morally equivalent. Trying to make a country communist in the present day, and for the foreseeable future, may be stupid, and would require morally untenable acts, but people who see the appeal of communism, and wish the world could be made such that all are provided for, are not the same as people who look at Nazi ideology and wish that they could murder everyone they consider to be lacking.
 
US communists view the gulags as a negative. The same can't be said of Neo-Nazis and the camps. One ideology is defined by economic goals. The other is defined by racism and desire for genocide. Equating the two is ridiculous at best.
Not sure what US communists you've been talking to, but I think the commie version of the neo-nazis you speak of is the bootlicking tankies that think daddy Stalin did nothing wrong, and the gulags were cheery reeducation camps.
 
Some of the methods used for McCarthism were bad. The end goal however is laudable
Communism is SO BAD as to justify A LOT in hunting it down and stamping it out. Kind of like how "punching Nazis" is accepted (by some at least), "punching Communists" should be just as accepted if not more so!
The end goal of Communism is laudable. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." If you contribute to society, society will provide everything you need.

In practice @Eriol is right that it always turns out horrific, but at least it has a decent end goal. The end goal of Nazism is genocide. Both ideals are terrible but one is still clearly a lot worse than the other and it's not the one Eriol seems to think it is.
 
Communism is SO BAD as to justify A LOT in hunting it down and stamping it out. Kind of like how "punching Nazis" is accepted (by some at least), "punching Communists" should be just as accepted if not more so! It's THAT destructive of a system. So yes, the ends DO actually justify the means on many many things in life. Not completely, not blank check, but yes, the more the threat, the greater the response. If somebody pulls a knife, you are also justified in pulling one, if not a gun. Communism is a plague. Harsh responses ARE justified. Can it go too far? Yes it can! Did McCarthy go too far? Probably.
Except that McCarthyism was NOT about stamping out Communism, it was about stamping out dissidents. Or maybe it was? Let's see what they identified as Communism:
The more conservative politicians in the United States had historically referred to progressive reforms, such as child labor laws and women's suffrage, as "Communist" or "Red plots", trying to raise fears against such changes.[9] They used similar terms during the 1930s and the Great Depression when opposing the New Deal policies of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Many conservatives equated the New Deal with socialism or Communism, and thought the policies were evidence of too much influence by so-called Communist policy makers in the Roosevelt administration.[10] In general, the vaguely defined danger of "Communist influence" was a more common theme in the rhetoric of anti-communist politicians than was espionage or any other specific activity.
Hmmm... child labor laws and suffrage. Yep, clearly godless* commies.

[*And that's why we HAD to add "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, kids!]
 
Remember kids; It's a not the Invisible Hand of the Free Market. It's the Very Visible Boot of Serfdom, stomping on your face forever in the name of profit control and the return of the Gilded Age. Because fuck us, they should get theirs AMIRIGHT?
 
If I were a betting man, I'd put money on her elderly, white, male colleagues downplaying her experience while a horde of angry, young, white males harass her until she has to move.
 
If I were a betting man, I'd put money on her elderly, white, male colleagues downplaying her experience while a horde of angry, young, white males harass her until she has to move.
They'll also disparage her character and call her a slut, all while saying it's her fault and boys will be boys.
 
If I were a betting man, I'd put money on her elderly, white, male colleagues downplaying her experience while a horde of angry, young, white males harass her until she has to move.
No, she's a republican and didn't accuse anyone specific so it's legit. It's one evil person though and not systemic in the slightest. In fact, it was probably bill Clinton.
 
Communism is SO BAD as to justify A LOT in hunting it down and stamping it out. Kind of like how "punching Nazis" is accepted (by some at least), "punching Communists" should be just as accepted if not more so!
Yeah, since genociding private property and genociding the jews (and gypsies, and homosexuals, and disabled people) are basically the same.


It's THAT destructive of a system.
Yup, the USSR was only a bad place because of communism, and now that it's gone, it's nothing but rainbows and sunshine, and totally not still the same type of strongman led autocracy.
 
Yeah, since genociding private property and genociding the jews (and gypsies, and homosexuals, and disabled people) are basically the same.
*cough*Uighurs*cough* So both systems do it. Wait for that story in about 5-10 years. If China hasn't gone to war with the world by then, maybe we'll stop hearing about that ethnic group. Because they're "re-educated" (ie: dead).
Yup, the USSR was only a bad place because of communism, and now that it's gone, it's nothing but rainbows and sunshine, and totally not still the same type of strongman led autocracy.
Because it's impossible that they went from decades (centuries arguably) of bad systems, and fell into another bad system.

You're not negating that Communism is horrific. The BEST argument so far was Pez up above about "well if we get post-scarcity, then..." which is a nice thought, but for all practical considerations RIGHT NOW, Communism is (by OBJECTIVE measures of people killed) much worse than Fascism was. Both are horrific. It's those DEFENDING such a destructive ideology that baffles me.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
It's those DEFENDING such a destructive ideology that baffles me.
It's THIS, right here that exemplifies why McCarthyism was so terrible. No one is defending communism. They're defending people's right to have political views, and the right to discuss ideologies without being persecuted for it. As CeltZ pointed out, not everyone who was persecuted by McCarthyism was actually a Communist. Some were just promoting the radical ideas of protecting children and giving women the right to vote.

The problem here is deciding when promoting public welfare crosses the line into communism (and not socialism, or humanitarianism, or some other -ism.) Does providing education for children count as communism? Does instituting a minimum wage, or raising that minimum count as communism? Does ensuring that all people get to vote count as communism? What about providing monetary assistance to the elderly? Does giving tax breaks to small businesses count as communism? Do higher taxes for the 1% count as communism? What about anti-monopoly laws? Net Neutrality? OSHA? Environmental laws? State parks? Where do you draw the line?

Because ALL of these have been decried as communism by some political advocate at some point in the past. Every single effort made to provide for those in need, or limit the power of business, has been decried as communism. That's the danger of attacking people for such a broad ideology. That's why people are pointing out the very real moral difference between "Provide for all" and "Murder everyone who isn't like me."
 
Pez, I actually agree with your caution here on most of the points you make, but I want to point out something critical in what you say here which I think illustrates the difference between us:
That's why people are pointing out the very real moral difference between "Provide for all" and "Murder everyone who isn't like me."
Communism isn't "Provide for all." A better summary of what Communism actually is would be "Try to provide for all, and anybody who doesn't endorse our methods, arrest/kill them." And anybody who doesn't think correctly kill them. And anybody who isn't enthusiastic enough kill them. And, and, AND! Time and again that's been shown where Communism goes. That's actually the commonality between the two horrific ideologies here: The State above all. After that, then they believe in X, Y, Z, but that's the overriding structure of both, and it leads to atrocities. Sure fascism deserves all the criticism it gets (I won't defend it, I have no desire to), but Communism is even worse by the numbers. The number of deaths is just... yikes. And it's a consequence of its ideals: all must be provided for, and anybody who gets in the way of that is the enemy. And a lot of people end up being its enemy.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Communism isn't "Provide for all." A better summary of what Communism actually is would be "Try to provide for all, and anybody who doesn't endorse our methods, arrest/kill them." And anybody who doesn't think correctly kill them. And anybody who isn't enthusiastic enough kill them. And, and, AND! Time and again that's been shown where Communism goes. That's actually the commonality between the two horrific ideologies here: The State above all. After that, then they believe in X, Y, Z, but that's the overriding structure of both, and it leads to atrocities. Sure fascism deserves all the criticism it gets (I won't defend it, I have no desire to), but Communism is even worse by the numbers. The number of deaths is just... yikes. And it's a consequence of its ideals: all must be provided for, and anybody who gets in the way of that is the enemy. And a lot of people end up being its enemy.
You're right. The actual application of Communism (trying to enact such a system with no regard for limited resources, greed, corruption, motivation, etc.), inevitably results in such immoral strongarm tactics. The disconnect between the admirable goals and the inevitable necessity of violence to implement those goals is one of the major reasons why Communism as a government system is so horrific. It's a lot easier to convince people to do horrible things if you can lie to them that they're doing it for the greater good.

However, you're also right. "Provide for all" isn't Communism. Not everyone who wants to provide for those in need is promoting Communism. If you want to clarify that Communism is "the state above all" and "death to those who oppose us" and... Then you must also admit that trying to achieve a more equal world does not automatically fall under communism. You can't have it both ways. If Communism is a specific description of a governmental system that functions in certain ways, then it is not also anything and everything else that only has some pieces and parts in common with the specific system called Communism.
 
What makes fascism particularly despicable is the systematic, focused, deliberate targeting of vulnerable populations. Fascism has a lower body count only because it was relatively short-lived while Communists mostly had horrific collateral damage. When given time to implement their programs, the Nazis and their provisional governments in conquered nations wiped people out with industrial precision. Hell, they eradicated 99% of the Estonian Jewish population that didn't escape to the Soviet Union.

For both fascism and communism, one must also consider the role that nationalism played. Both forms of government arose in an era of economic and political turmoil. They took advantage of weak or non-existent state institutions to create replacement governments with fascist or communist laws where certain classes or minorities were deliberately denied due process. Where strong government institutions remained (Britain, France) the extremists were kept in check. And that's why I find Trump and his fanboys to be completely repulsive when they rant about "deep state" conspiracies. The state has institutions that prevent Trumpsters from carrying out whatever devilry they have planned.

I'd strongly recommend Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands. It's about Eastern Europe during the interwar years and WW2. I met him when he spoke at my university. We were both European historians so we had something in common. I study 18th century British maritime history and he focuses on WW2 and the Holocaust, but it's still Europe, dammit!
 
The problem here is deciding when promoting public welfare crosses the line into communism (and not socialism, or humanitarianism, or some other -ism.) Does providing education for children count as communism? Does instituting a minimum wage, or raising that minimum count as communism? Does ensuring that all people get to vote count as communism? What about providing monetary assistance to the elderly? Does giving tax breaks to small businesses count as communism? Do higher taxes for the 1% count as communism? What about anti-monopoly laws? Net Neutrality? OSHA? Environmental laws? State parks? Where do you draw the line?
Heh. The "No True Communism" fallacy (really the "Pile Paradox").

--Patrick
 
Communism, as applied, has always been married to totalitarian nationalism. In the Soviet Union in particular, you took an impovershed, war-weakened, overstretched empire, killed off the ruling elite, then, out of paranoia of being overthrown, proceeded to eliminate all the educated, intelligent, motivated people that a nation requires to function. Then you try and jump from a 19th century agricultural society to a 20th century industrialized society without having anyone who knows how to do it.

Cuba is an odd case, because the average Cuban's standard of living raised considerably after the revolution - under Bautista, almost all of what Cuba had was being taken by North American business owners and Cubans were left to starve. But between the US trade embargo afterwards and being slaved to the Soviet system, any benefits that could have come out of the revolution were quashed, and Castro's regime was extremely oppressive against dissent and the marginalized.

Vietnam went communist because of Charles DeGaulle. To explain: the French in Indochina (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc) were aligned with Vichy France, so the Japanese invaders were technically their allies. The Viet Minh anti-Japanese, anti-French partisans were thus on the same side as the Chinese, USA, Soviet Union, etc. At the Potsdam conference, Ho Chi Minh, the leader of the partisans, wanted to meet with the American delegation to talk about Vietnam gaining its independence. Charles DeGaulle, the leader of free France, more or less threatened to pull out of NATO and postwar agreements if we helped the Vietnamese gain their independence from France. Stalin's people, on the other hand, were more than willing to listen, and provide training and Kalashnikovs to the Vietnamese. Now, after the war, the French proceeded to completely fuck up in Indochina. There were thousands of Japanese troops interred, waiting to be repatriated, after the end of the war in the Pacific. The Vietnamese started protesting and rioting for independence, and the French authorities, in their infinite stupidity, decided to arm the Japanese and use them to put down the Vietnamese, who had spent the last 5 years under the brutal subjugation of the Japanese. The US stepped in before it could reignite the war, and shipped the Japanese home. The French then decided to use the French Foreign Legion to keep order, and at the time, their ranks were largely filled with German veterans who enrolled to gain a new identity and avoid war crimes tribunals. Within a decade, the French were soundly defeated at Dien Bien Phu, and they "liberated" Vietnam as a divided state due to rigged elections. The North recognized Ho Chi Minh as the elected leader, while in the South, the French had chosen a leader who would maintain close ties to the former colonial power, much as they did through their African territories. For most Vietnamese people, the issue wasn't one of communism or democracy, but rather one of an independent, self-ruled Vietnam vs one still under the thumb of Euro-American powers. Still, the vietnamese communists did engage in mass murder - more than 4,000 residents of Hue were found in a mass grave after it was liberated. And the Hmong and Montagnard peoples were brutally persecuted by the authorities out of Hanoi.

So, while in a post-scarcity society, communism may be workable, in every historical example so far, it has been combined with oppression of the marginalized, ruthless crackdowns against possible dissent, and an anti-intellectual, dogmatic system that slows or blocks societal advancement.
 
You're right. The actual application of Communism (trying to enact such a system with no regard for limited resources, greed, corruption, motivation, etc.), inevitably results in such immoral strongarm tactics. The disconnect between the admirable goals and the inevitable necessity of violence to implement those goals is one of the major reasons why Communism as a government system is so horrific. It's a lot easier to convince people to do horrible things if you can lie to them that they're doing it for the greater good.
Where's that quote somebody had in their sig for a while about no respite from somebody who thinks they're doing "good" for you? This is in agreement with you btw.

However, you're also right. "Provide for all" isn't Communism. Not everyone who wants to provide for those in need is promoting Communism. If you want to clarify that Communism is "the state above all" and "death to those who oppose us" and... Then you must also admit that trying to achieve a more equal world does not automatically fall under communism. You can't have it both ways. If Communism is a specific description of a governmental system that functions in certain ways, then it is not also anything and everything else that only has some pieces and parts in common with the specific system called Communism.
I guess I mean "It isn't provide for all" under the idea that if that is the "ideal" of the system of "Communism" then the other parts of it automatically go along with it. There's no separating them right now IMO, at least from the governmental side of things. While individuals can strive towards helping others (and should), when governments get involved, it gets into coercion so fast that atrocities also happen quickly.

I also disagree with your assertion that "a more equal world" is necessarily a good thing. Equal opportunity yes (in most ways), but equal result? I'm sorry, if I (or anyone else) makes decent decisions throughout their life, I don't want the same result for me as the person who decides to go "find themselves" after high school, spends 10 years doing "nothing" and then laments having no career at 30. Or the person who says "I'm going to study (insert a non-professional degree here)" and laments being in fast food because their degree is useless. So be careful how far you want equality of opportunity vs equality of result.


And fascinating summary Null. Can you do a block like that on China, Yugoslavia, and (debatably Communist) Cambodia? It may be too close to current events though for one on Venezuela.
 
If we're going to claim communism isn't all bad - and I tend to agree - we also have to take a look at the other side. I can't believe I'm, once again, defending nazi's, but the end goal of nazism isn't genocide. It's national-socialism, which more or less comes down to a weaker form of communism - only base resource production and essential industries are nationalized, while people are still allowed individual choices and opening businesses - but for a smaller group - the people of a specific state.
in practice national-socialism leads to the killing/extermination of "People who are different from us", while communism leads to the killing/extermination of "People who think differently from us".
Both systems, like absolute libertarianism, extreme gaianism (hippy live-for-the-world-not-the-people), and most other extreme political positions, have something going for them in theory but are horrible when put into practice.
The nazi's weren't very nice. Neither were the communists. Ask around in countries that suffered under both, like Hungary, Bulgary, even Poland, and you'll find most people ended up resenting communist oppression more than nazi dictatorship.

Both systems are horrible when competent put into place. Both can be useful in a society in a small measure. I will say that the "soft" version of communism, socialism or social-democracy, is "better" for most people than the "soft"version of nazism - nationalism or patriotism.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
the end goal of nazism isn't genocide. It's national-socialism
No, Nazis are a specific group promoting national-socialism. The goal of Nazis is genocide, period. The goal of National-Socialism is different.

This is like someone saying that "Trying to get the most points isn't how you win at Football. It's a sport, and some sports have different win conditions, like golf which tries to have the lowest score, or races that don't have points." Football is a specific sport. Nazis are a specific political movement.

Furthermore, I'd argue that a great number of Nazis don't want National-Socialism at all, as evidenced by the number of Nazis who support the American Republican party. So, yeah, Nazis being in favor of genocide is the defining characteristic of that specific group.
 
Venezuela's current situation has nothing to do with socialism or communism. It's because it's a poorly run dictatorship that banked their entire economy on an industry that was then undercut, combined with widespread corruption, lack of civil order, and let's not forget, the presence of narco-terrorist cartels.

To wit - the leadership of Venezuela decided that their massive oil reserves would pay for everything, and did nothing to help develop other domestic industries to provide a more stable economy and less dependence on imported consumer goods; more on this in a moment. This was workable, until OPEC slashed the prices of crude oil. The price went from $96.29 a barrel in 2014 to $49.49 in 2015 and $40.68 in 2016. With less than half of the predicted amount coming in, their economy had a deficit that it had no way of making up.

Now, back to the imported consumer goods. Since Venezuela relies on importing a lot of daily necessities, the government had hired a few large import-export businesses to do that. Problem is, those companies pocketed the money and didn't bring sufficient stocks of supplies in. So when the oil money ran out, there were no stockpiles of food, domestic products, etc, that keep day to day life going. That's what I meant by corruption.

The collapse of society caused by shortages was helped by the fact that generally the police in Venezuela are riddled with corruption - many higher ups are in the pay of either wealthy corporate interests or narcotics cartels, and as such, law enforcement is radically unequal, even more so than in America. Most of the street police are underpaid, undertrained, and unmotivated because they know they have little in the way of support.

The others, I don't really know enough or don't remember reading enough about, to make a cogent argument.
 
No, Nazis are a specific group promoting national-socialism. The goal of Nazis is genocide, period. The goal of National-Socialism is different.
It's worth pointing out that this is a trick the Alt-Right uses all the time. "We can't be Nazis, we're capitalists. Nazi was short for National Socialism, so if anything that would make them Leftists." Which was true, to a point: the Nazi Party was originally formed by socialists seeking to bring socialism to Germany and it remained true until the Night of Long Knives, wherein Hitler's faction straight up murdered the socialist faction of the party so he could consolidate power. After that, it turned into a crony capitalist nightmare where the only guarantee of a job you had was in the military and by that I mean you were guaranteed to be in the military if you didn't want your family to starve/be murdered by the SS. Unless you were rich... funny how that always works.
 
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