Milkshake Ducks - The official thread of falling from grace

figmentPez

Staff member
I don't know if Sean Bean has previously had his reputation tarnished, but he certainly deserves a big "fuck you" now.



All sorts of things are planned out and choreographed in films. Fight scenes, stunts, dance, special effects, etc. Why? Because actors should be kept safe. Intimacy Coordinators are doing the same kind of work stunt coordinators do, making sure that a potentially dangerous situation stays controlled, and looks impressive while protecting everyone involved.

Fuck you and your asshat opinion, Sean Bean. Take your remarks, print them out on card stock, fold them until they're all sharp corners, and then get intimate with the result, no IC present, because that would "spoil the spontaneity".
 
I don't know if Sean Bean has previously had his reputation tarnished, but he certainly deserves a big "fuck you" now.



All sorts of things are planned out and choreographed in films. Fight scenes, stunts, dance, special effects, etc. Why? Because actors should be kept safe. Intimacy Coordinators are doing the same kind of work stunt coordinators do, making sure that a potentially dangerous situation stays controlled, and looks impressive while protecting everyone involved.

Fuck you and your asshat opinion, Sean Bean. Take your remarks, print them out on card stock, fold them until they're all sharp corners, and then get intimate with the result, no IC present, because that would "spoil the spontaneity".
I just feel like saying that I think this one is being taken out of context. Sean Bean has been acting for quite some time and Intimacy Coordinators are fairly a new concept. He's used to one thing and has been told "we do it this way now". The article doesn't show him being disrespectful in his responses. He just mentions that the coordinators tend to throw him off. When the interviewer mentions that the coordinators are there to protect the actors, Sean Bean's response is that "I suppose it depends on the actress". Yeah he doesn't really understand how important something like that is nowadays, but again, he's used to one way. If he were known for being an inappropriate co-star that would be one thing. In response to that interview Lena Hall only said nice things about her Snow Piercer costar. “Sean is an awesome actor and made me feel not only comfortable but also like I had a true acting partner in those bizarre scenes,”
I feel that blasting Sean Bean over this is a bit harsh.
 
I tend to agree with Shawn. Tone deaf on SB's part, sure, but, well, since the HP refers to stunt coordinators as well: there were/are plenty of actors who don't like them. You can think they're a necessity, and still think they limit the style and self-expression of actors who do know what they're doing.
If a...say, Kevin Spacey had said this, it'd be a dog whistle to saying "I don't want people to intervene while I'm trying to low-key molest my costar".
Do I think IC are necessary? absolutely. Do I think every actor and actress needs them? No, not necessarily. Do I think actors or directors should be able to freely choose if they want to include them in their production? Absolutely not (because the ones saying it won't be necessary are the ones who probably need it most).
A guy saying "I don't like condoms because you can feel them" can easily come off as a jerk who just doesn't want to use them (and/or a rapist who removes it halfway through), but can also just mean "I understand why, I just don't have to like it" - a type of misunderstanding/miscommunication i've faced often enough about enough different topics.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
In response to that interview Lena Hall only said nice things about her Snow Piercer costar. “Sean is an awesome actor and made me feel not only comfortable but also like I had a true acting partner in those bizarre scenes,”
She also was very clear to note that she was NOT "up for anything", but Mr. Bean did describe her that way. It kinda shows the need for IC when the male star thinks anything is on the table, but the female star quietly disagrees. She's pretty clearly being tactful because she doesn't want to
torpedo her career, while still making it clear that she thinks IC are a very good thing and that she wants to have them. So his partner this time was fine with it, what about next time if she isn't?

The full NYT article the quote comes from really doesn't paint a good picture when addressing that question.


He talks about how choreographing a love scene would ruin the spontaneity. He talks about acting a love scene as if they behave like lovers to film the scene. There's a reason why the industry is finally beginning to recognize that doing things that way is a problem. Even if his most recent acting partner was fine, I guarantee you that someone he's acted with wasn't, given that attitude. The man has had four wives, multiple counts of the police being called for domestic disturbances, and has been openly accused of harassing one of this ex-wives. If he's treating his co-stars like they're his lovers, he's crossed lines, for certain.

At the end of the interview he says, "A lot of men these days are made to feel like apologists for their sexuality and masculinity."
Men who feel like they can be unapologetic about their gender's sexuality are a threat. Because men, as a gender, absolutely have a fucking problem with men using their power to be harmful with their sexuality. Until we reach a point where sexual assault/abuse isn't a major problem in the acting industry, then men should feel like they need to be apologists for their gender, because there's a problem that needs to be dealt with. Men who don't think we need to deal with this major issue are men who like using the power they have too much.

Mr. Bean was doing an interview, talking about the industry and his place in it. You can try to brush it away as attitudes from an older time, or him complaining about how things are different, but he's still working as an actor. He's not some retiree talking about how they did things at the factory back in the day, and how modern safety standards slow things down. He's still working! If someone in a factory job were talking to the press about how OSHA standards make work too hard, and how workers should just buck up and accept that sometimes you lose a finger, you'd blast them for antiquated and outright harmful views. The same goes for an actor decrying modern safety standards on a film set.

There is an obligation for people in an industry to promote the best practices in that industry. If you're a construction worker you shouldn't do an interview where you say that things would be better if no one had to wear a hard hat. If you're a chef you shouldn't do an interview where you say you liked it better when the health inspector didn't come around making sure food is kept at the proper temperature. If you run a day care you don't do an interview and complain about how much harder it is to hire people now that you have to do background checks on everyone. It's just fucking stupid to say any of that shit. It makes you look like an asshole, it makes other people in your industry look like assholes, and it encourages negative trends in your industry. Words fucking matter.

It's not just a matter of his views being old fashioned, it's that the industry needs to change for damn good reason, and he's either part of the problem, or he should be aware enough to know that the problem isn't going to go away as long as powerful men keep whining about how it makes their jobs more difficult to protect women. "It's too difficult! It ruins the mood. I'm a Nice Guy™, I wouldn't do anything my costar doesn't want to. I can tell she's up for anything. Why wouldn't she be? I'm one of the good ones."

Hey, Sean Bean and other male actors, you want to be masculine, go on adventures, and show off how strong you are? Stop being little wimps when it comes to doing things that will protect women! Don't complain that it will make things more difficult for you if you take the steps necessary to make sure that women are safe. Just level up, show how strong and capable you are by doing the right thing, and tell others that they need to do the right thing, no matter how inconvenient it might be.

Yes, this is a hot-button issue for me. Maybe Sean Bean isn't Harvey Weinstein or Joss Whedon, but he's damn well not helping to move the industry away from abusers. That may be a much lesser problem, but it's still a problem, and one he should be taken to task for.
 
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I kinda put it in the same category as young men saying “but it might ruin the mood” when told to make sure to get verbal enthusiastic consent. In that it’s a stupid thing to say and think and should be pushed back on immediately when it’s heard but not something that rises to a complete fuck this dude.
Course I would hope that Sean Bean had already matured past that point but apparently not.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
And there are always Actors who chafe at Directors in general telling them what to do, because their egos tell them "I am the STAR, I KNOW how best to do this, do not TELL me how to DO WHAT I AM BEST AT" etc etc.
 
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Just seems like we are giving a guy hell because he spoke his mind. Never said he wouldn’t work with the new industry standards. Made a comment that he believes that both men and women should celebrate what makes them unique. Personally this just feels like another moment of “he’s got a different mind set! Torches and pitchforks time!”. People need to be able to have their opinions and speak about them. It’s what we’ve always done that made us great. Sure it sucks when someone speaks their mind about something really gawd awful, but we have to be very careful that we should be picking our battles here and not going after every sis white male who makes a comment that maybe seems out of touch.

Honestly I’m getting very tired, in general (not of you), of being told who’s work, creation or art I can enjoy and who’s I have to hate and protest because of some dumb comment they made on social media.
 
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I’m going to agree with @Shawn. This is NOT the same as sexual harassment or sexual assault. This is someone expressing an outdated opinion. We, as a society, should disagree and educate in situations like this. Not vilify.
This has been my take. I feel like his view is outdated but as long as he's going along with the new standards, even if begrudgingly, then it's basically a non issue. But people like to be mad so I just watch them be mad.
 
I don't know, I think was most disappointed he was reading a Jordan Peterson book more then anything else.

Considering JP makes all his money stoking the fires of male grievance it kind of makes sense now that Sean Bean is being all starry eyed for when "men could be men" and do what they wanted regardless of how comfortable the woman feels in the situation.
 
I don't know, I think was most disappointed he was reading a Jordan Peterson book more then anything else.

Considering JP makes all his money stoking the fires of male grievance it kind of makes sense now that Sean Bean is being all starry eyed for when "men could be men" and do what they wanted regardless of how comfortable the woman feels in the situation.
Again that's pulling "do whatever he wants" from literally no where.
 
Again that's pulling "do whatever he wants" from literally no where.
Not exactly. Intimacy Coordinators are there to direct the action of a sex scene for everyones comfort in mind. Sean complains that doing it spoils the "spontaneous" intimacy of the scene, but what is "spontaneous"?
performed or occurring as a result of a sudden inner impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus.
AKA, he wants to do whatever he feels like in the scene.

Fun fact (okay, not really), but not every sexual assault / rape is the type where the woman is thrashing and screaming "No!" into the heavens. Most start out as a simple moment where the "spontaneous" urge of the male in the situation leads to something like groping or sex, at which point the female can go into shock or fear responses, which in turn, the male, now hot and heavy, considers to be consent for his actions.
This situation gets MORE complicated when it's not two people hanging out or dating, but instead two co-workers who have to play act intimacy and may not carry the same power dynamics, many will just suffer in silence to make sure they don't get fired, or blacklisted, . Sean Bean might think it's more spontaneous to just go in with the butt rub while imitating sex, but that does not mean his co-star is going to be happy about the fact Sean Bean grabbed her butt without warning her, because it "felt right" for him to do it.

In no way am I implying that Sean Bean wants to sexually harass people, it's his job to act and sometimes that means acting intimate, but unless he is asking way ahead of time to the actress "Would you mind if I gave your nipples a little pinch while we gyrate?" then that could be a problematic situation, and sure as hell isn't "spontaneous."
 
Not exactly. Intimacy Coordinators are there to direct the action of a sex scene for everyones comfort in mind. Sean complains that doing it spoils the "spontaneous" intimacy of the scene, but what is "spontaneous"?


AKA, he wants to do whatever he feels like in the scene.

Fun fact (okay, not really), but not every sexual assault / rape is the type where the woman is thrashing and screaming "No!" into the heavens. Most start out as a simple moment where the "spontaneous" urge of the male in the situation leads to something like groping or sex, at which point the female can go into shock or fear responses, which in turn, the male, now hot and heavy, considers to be consent for his actions.
This situation gets MORE complicated when it's not two people hanging out or dating, but instead two co-workers who have to play act intimacy and may not carry the same power dynamics, many will just suffer in silence to make sure they don't get fired, or blacklisted, . Sean Bean might think it's more spontaneous to just go in with the butt rub while imitating sex, but that does not mean his co-star is going to be happy about the fact Sean Bean grabbed her butt without warning her, because it "felt right" for him to do it.

In no way am I implying that Sean Bean wants to sexually harass people, it's his job to act and sometimes that means acting intimate, but unless he is asking way ahead of time to the actress "Would you mind if I gave your nipples a little pinch while we gyrate?" then that could be a problematic situation, and sure as hell isn't "spontaneous."
My assumption is that his use of the word “spontaneous” refers to spur of the moment decisions to make the scene seem more real. He’s an old school actor and he puts effort into all of his performances. Unless I’m wrong he’s not being outed as a creep on set by any actresses or actors, so I would imagine he has respectful conversations with his sex scene costars on what is or what is not OK. If he follows the rules and is respectful to the other actors and crew then I say let him have a conversation about how he prefers the old school ways.
 
My assumption is that his use of the word “spontaneous” refers to spur of the moment decisions to make the scene seem more real. He’s an old school actor and he puts effort into all of his performances. Unless I’m wrong he’s not being outed as a creep on set by any actresses or actors, so I would imagine he has respectful conversations with his sex scene costars on what is or what is not OK. If he follows the rules and is respectful to the other actors and crew then I say let him have a conversation about how he prefers the old school ways.
Then my question is, what makes it more real? What does he hope to change in the scene that the Intimacy Coordinator is preventing him from doing?

Again, spontaneous means, like you said, spur of the moment, NO PREMEDITATION. That means no preparation. If you are setting boundaries and rules, aka, what the Intimacy Coordinator does, then you are not being spontaneous, you are following the script just like you would any other scene. The placement of your hands, the way you kiss, all that is planned by the Intimacy Coordinator with the approval of both the actor and the actress before they put on their skin suits and socks and get into the bed. What we are rightfully pointing out, is that by complaining about how the Intimacy Coordinator "spoils the spontaneity" and shouldn't be needed, it means he wants more freedom to feel out how to make the scene better, and that does not always mean, "I should ask if Lena is okay if I add a little tongue this time, because it might make things look better on camera."

And you are perfectly right, it could be that Sean simply asks right as the scene is about to start, "What are you okay with me doing?" and then him and the actress work it out, but again, you have to understand power dynamics. If the actress is on a lower tier then Sean, she may offer to let him do more then she actually wants, because she will fear that if she prevents him from doing what he thinks will make the scene feel best, she will be replaced, or blacklisted, or the chemistry of other scenes will be ruined, or so many other things that will make the woman give up just anything short of actual sex. The Intimacy Coordinator is SUPPOSED to be a third party that makes sure no one is giving into specific things they don't want to do, and the fact Sean is complaining about them even existing means he wants to be the one to make that choice, to make the decision.

Can you not understand how that can be a bad look?

This is, again, following the fact that he also wrote about how he is reading a Jordan Peterson book and how men shouldn't have to be apologists for being masculine or male. To better hone my point I want to copy and talk about one specific passage.
"I think you've got to be careful we do not lose sight of what a man is. Look at the old heroes in mythology, history - there's a great respect for a man's adventures and strengths."
What mythology is he talking about? Is he speaking about Greek Mythology? Norse? Christian? Does he know that in almost every mythology, one of the biggest constants was that women were just conquests for men to enjoy? The dude played Zeus in Percy Jackson, a masculine god that rapes dozens of women in actual mythology often times in the guise of someone else, or a fucking animal. There are stories of daughters getting raped by their own fathers (Harpalyce), mothers raped by their sons (Halie). I know many like to gloss over the story of Persephone these days, making it all romantic in video games like Hades, but people forget that Persephone was Zeus' daughter, Hades WAS HER UNCLE, and he raped her and made her his queen in the Underworld with the consent of Zeus, who again, WAS HER FATHER.

This is why the whole thing feels so tone deaf from Sean. He is opining over a time when "men were men" and could be legendary heroes, without thinking A) who wrote those stories, and B) How those men treated women back in those stories. The fact he is also complaining how he can't be spontaneous in sex scenes is just icing on a very problematic cake.
 
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Then my question is, what makes it more real? What does he hope to change in the scene that the Intimacy Coordinator is preventing him from doing?

Again, spontaneous means, like you said, spur of the moment, NO PREMEDITATION. That means no preparation. If you are setting boundaries and rules, aka, what the Intimacy Coordinator does, then you are not being spontaneous, you are following the script just like you would any other scene. The placement of your hands, the way you kiss, all that is planned by the Intimacy Coordinator with the approval of both the actor and the actress before they put on their skin suits and socks and get into the bed. What we are rightfully pointing out, is that by complaining about how the Intimacy Coordinator "spoils the spontaneity" and shouldn't be needed, it means he wants more freedom to feel out how to make the scene better, and that does not always mean, "I should ask if Lena is okay if I add a little tongue this time, because it might make things look better on camera."

And you are perfectly right, it could be that Sean simply asks right as the scene is about to start, "What are you okay with me doing?" and then him and the actress work it out, but again, you have to understand power dynamics. If the actress is on a lower tier then Sean, she may offer to let him do more then she actually wants, because she will fear that if she prevents him from doing what he thinks will make the scene feel best, she will be replaced, or blacklisted, or the chemistry of other scenes will be ruined, or so many other things that will make the woman give up just anything short of actual sex. The Intimacy Coordinator is SUPPOSED to be a third party that makes sure no one is giving into specific things they don't want to do, and the fact Sean is complaining about them even existing means he wants to be the one to make that choice, to make the decision.

Can you not understand how that can be a bad look?

This is, again, following the fact that he also wrote about how he is reading a Jordan Peterson book and how men shouldn't have to be apologists for being masculine or male. To better hone my point I want to copy and talk about one specific passage.


What mythology is he talking about? Is he speaking about Greek Mythology? Norse? Christian? Does he know that in almost every mythology, one of the biggest constants was that women were just conquests for men to enjoy? The dude played Zeus in Peter Jackson, a masculine god that rapes dozens of women in actual mythology often times in the guise of someone else, or a fucking animal. There are stories of daughters getting raped by their own fathers (Harpalyce), mothers raped by their sons (Halie). I know many like to gloss over the story of Persephone these days, making it all romantic in video games like Hades, but people forget that Persephone was Zeus' daughter, Hades WAS HER UNCLE, and he raped her and made her his queen in the Underworld with the consent of Zeus, who again, WAS HER FATHER.

This is why the whole thing feels so tone deaf from Sean. He is opining over a time when "men were men" and could be legendary heroes, without thinking A) who wrote those stories, and B) How those men treated women back in those stories. The fact he is also complaining how he can't be spontaneous in sex scenes is just icing on a very problematic cake.
I can only really respond by saying that you may be over analyzing the situation.
 
I’m just going to say that you may be over analyzing the situation. My
I can only really respond by saying that you may be over analyzing the situation.
If that is the way you want to go, I can just say you may be under analyzing the situation. See how that works?

We are talking about how Sean Bean said some things that many people saw as rather problematic. We can then discuss why those things are such, or why not, or just not talk about them at all, if that is what you wish.
 
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I know many like to gloss over the story of Persephone these days, making it all romantic in video games like Hades, but people forget that Persephone was Zeus' daughter, Hades WAS HER UNCLE, and he raped her and made her his queen in the Underworld with the consent of Zeus, who again, WAS HER FATHER.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Sean Bean has an old-fashioned view of masculinity because he misses how old stories celebrated it (referencing mythology) to "Sean Bean supports rape because he references mythology that has rape in it"
 
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Sean Bean has an old-fashioned view of masculinity because he misses how old stories celebrated it (referencing mythology) to "Sean Bean supports rape because he references mythology that has rape in it"
Never said Sean Bean supports rape. Can you point out where I said as such?

As an addon, calling out what can be rooted "Toxic Masculinity" isn't saying "That dude really wants to rape those people." If that is how you see it, then I am not the one over-analyzing things here.
 
Nope, I can't. You didn't directly say that. But it seemed to be the direction you were heading when you were kind of angrily connecting his statements about mythology and how there's rape in there.
My point is that he is opining for a time men were men without understanding what that means. It's the same root where many men see the 1950s as a glorious period when women stayed in the kitchen while the men go earn a living (and maybe screwed a secretary or two on the side). Women couldn't even have their own credit cards till the 1980s.

Toxic Masculinity isn't just "I wish I could rape that woman right now", it is also "As a man I have a better idea of what's best, and I believe if a woman isn't perceptive to the way I want to do things then she is being overly sensitive and that is a her problem." That is sort of the feel Sean Bean gives off because he is complaining that a third party mediator specifically on the set for sex scenes is making it hard to improvise during those sex scenes. They are not there to make his job easier, they are there to make him and the actress more comfortable without one side influencing the other to do more then they want.

My comments over JP and Mythology was to knock home that he has a rather "rose colored" idea of ancient masculinity that brings up the image of the magnificent Hercules, without also bringing to bare the fact those stories often had women in the fridge, or worst, to make them happen. Even Hercules likely raped Auge. It just always makes me weary when people show such a love for those old mythological stories as the masculine ideal of a man, without looking into what those periods meant to women too. It's not malice, but it is ignorance.
 
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One last thing I will say before I have to walk away from this thread. I will admit I did not connect the mythology argument very well with the other argument. So let me put it this way. If you talked about just mythology in the interview or just the whole intimacy coordinator issue, I would disagree but I would probably just shrug it off overall.

The reason it became a big deal to me was because they were together. A grand view of ancient masculinity has often been a gateway into toxic or hypermasculinity. It may not even be something you overtly think about or think you are, even incels started out thinking they were nice guys, but it can taint your view on how you believe men should behave and women should behave. If men were the great protectors and strong and heroic, then the women should also go back to that period and just be mothers and housekeepers, I mean it worked right?

It was the very fact that he complained about intimacy coordinators that led into talking about Jordan Peterson and his love of the masculinity of ancient mythology that just put up a huge amount of red flags for me. It could mean there's a deeper sense of what he thinks a man and a woman should be that we don't even know.

I know it was said earlier that no actor or actress come out and said he's a creep, but it's Hollywood, the place Harvey Weinstein stalked and abused for decades before people were brave enough to come out about his antics. The type of stuff Sean is saying here concerns me, but in the end it could very well be he just did not have a really good way with words at that moment. In the end I can only hope that's true and that I'm completely off base on my concerns.
 
My assumption is that his use of the word “spontaneous” refers to spur of the moment decisions to make the scene seem more real. He’s an old school actor and he puts effort into all of his performances. Unless I’m wrong he’s not being outed as a creep on set by any actresses or actors, so I would imagine he has respectful conversations with his sex scene costars on what is or what is not OK. If he follows the rules and is respectful to the other actors and crew then I say let him have a conversation about how he prefers the old school ways.
The old school ways were for the leading man to impose his will and if the actress spoke out about stuff she wasn’t comfortable with she’s labeled “difficult” and her career was largely over.
So even if we give him the most generous reading of what he said it’s still not great.
 
So… “implied violence” is the exact same thing as “another person would resist if I physically or sexually assaulted them?”

Am I understanding that correctly?
 
So… “implied violence” is the exact same thing as “another person would resist if I physically or sexually assaulted them?”

Am I understanding that correctly?
Look, if you're talking to me, that clearly means you've consented to having my thumb up your ass. That's just plain common sense.
 
So… “implied violence” is the exact same thing as “another person would resist if I physically or sexually assaulted them?”

Am I understanding that correctly?
It means that he believes that and interaction with a male could conceivably end in a fight, and he seems to try to give an example of breaching someone's personal space and bodily privacy to provoke said fight. And while this is obviously dumb, it does give a fascinating insight into Scott's state of mind. He is constantly on edge and afraid of interaction, and he then projects that onto everyone
 
True. There's plenty of comics (and certainly webcomics) out there where one can assume the inventor is anywhere between "a few cards short from a full deck" and "ready to join the Halforums NSFW forum", but Dilbert.... well, for its time and place it was funny and sometimes even a tiny bit daring, but by now white bread toast is more surprising. But some furry lolicon snuff incest hatchet slashfic writers and artists are outwardly completely normal people whose weirdest hobby is collecting post stamps, while Adams....
 
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