[TV] Talk about the last TV you watched, the catchall thread
- Thread starter Frank
- Start date
Uh weird. Dunno if any one else had finished Sandman like me but no you haven't.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulta...dman-episode-two-weeks-later/?sh=12bb64652dd6
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulta...dman-episode-two-weeks-later/?sh=12bb64652dd6
Are you going to take credit for it?
For the first time ever, more people watched streaming TV than cable
...is that Steve Carrell?
--Patrick
RIP Cable.
...is that Steve Carrell?
--Patrick
I saw the new trailer for Rings of Power. What I noticed is that a mob of pasty, sexless, sedentary dweebs has been bashing the project from day one. They complain about the costumes, the atmosphere, the dialogue, and especially the fact that some of the characters are black. It’s like they’re trying to hate the series out of existence.
I am in a number of groups on social media for cooking, military history, Scouting, book series, and various sports. None of them come close to the toxicity that I see in Lord of the Rings fan groups. I am a gigantic nerd but even I feel like giving them a wedgie. They probably spent most of their school days stuffed inside a locker or being forced to eat their own underwear.
I am in a number of groups on social media for cooking, military history, Scouting, book series, and various sports. None of them come close to the toxicity that I see in Lord of the Rings fan groups. I am a gigantic nerd but even I feel like giving them a wedgie. They probably spent most of their school days stuffed inside a locker or being forced to eat their own underwear.
Can confirm. I used to be fairly deep in LOTR fandom when the movies came out. It's truly the most toxic fandom I've ever been around (and that includes Star Wars fandom, which is pretty damn toxic). Those of us who came in through the movies were pretty much treated like plague rats who were going to ruin everything. In my experience, most of the worst toxicity tends to center around The Silmarillion fandom. It's full of pseudointellectuals who know exactly what "The Professor" would want, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant. And don't you dare write fanfic that varies from absolute canon! They would mock teenagers posting Legomance fics for fun and a few of the LOTR fanfic sites were infamous for outright banning any story containing LGBT relationships. (Since The Professor never wrote any gay relationships in LOTR, obviously they do not exist in Middle-Earth.)
I haven't been around it in years, but nothing seems to have changed much. They still treat the original texts as sacred documents that must only appear in the original form. No remixes, no new interpretations, no variations. And definitely no Black elves. Not because they're racist! Nope! It's because The Professor never specifically mentioned black Elves, so obviously they don't exist...
The chief complaints usually include the word “woke.”I haven't been around it in years, but nothing seems to have changed much. They still treat the original texts as sacred documents that must only appear in the original form. No remixes, no new interpretations, no variations. And definitely no Black elves. Not because they're racist! Nope! It's because The Professor never specifically mentioned black Elves, so obviously they don't exist...
I would hypothesize that the toxic fanboys were big fans before the movies came out. LotR was niche and the Silmarillion even more so. They were relentlessly bullied in middle school as a result. Peter Jackson’s trilogy made LotR mainstream and the dorks decided it was their turn to bully anyone who dared enter their clubhouse.
They would probably be less crabby if they went outside, touched grass, and ate something that didn’t come from a gas station.
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GasBandit
Staff member
Been watching the Sandman. It's great, though I was a little disappointed that
Apart from that, though, it's been awesome. Sandman was one of my absolute favorites as a kid. I don't know how many times I read and reread and re-reread Preludes and Nocturnes. I'm so glad it's being made more accessible to a wider audience now, and further shows how awesome Neil Gaiman is.
Although the first couple episodes definitely reinforced how grating the Cockney accent is to me.
They apparently genderswapped John Constantine for "economic" reasons according to Neil Gaiman. I interpret this to mean "to save money by getting the actress playing Johanna Constantine from the earlier time period to pull double duty." Pity, I am an absolute giddy fanboy for crossovers with consistent actors. You have no idea how much I squeed (yes, me, squeed) at Charlie Cox in No Way Home. I mean, I wasn't expecting Keanu Reeves or anything, but was Matt Ryan really too out of reach?
Also I was disappointed in the exclusion of the Martian Manhunter cameo in that same arc.
I was less bothered by the change from Hell's leadership being a triumvirate to just Lucifer alone, but I kind of wonder why. Guess they blew all the demon budget on that cartoonish Azazel.
Also I was disappointed in the exclusion of the Martian Manhunter cameo in that same arc.
I was less bothered by the change from Hell's leadership being a triumvirate to just Lucifer alone, but I kind of wonder why. Guess they blew all the demon budget on that cartoonish Azazel.
Apart from that, though, it's been awesome. Sandman was one of my absolute favorites as a kid. I don't know how many times I read and reread and re-reread Preludes and Nocturnes. I'm so glad it's being made more accessible to a wider audience now, and further shows how awesome Neil Gaiman is.
Although the first couple episodes definitely reinforced how grating the Cockney accent is to me.
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ugh, I forgot about calling everything "woke". Woke, woke, woke. Everything is woke.
I've seen it as more of an obsessive thing. They have this idea of how the story has to go (canon) and nobody is allowed to have other ideas and "ruin" it. They can't just hit the back button or turn off the TV and go read the original, they need to destroy the thing that threatens the purity of their canon story. It's like the thing @ThatNickGuy posted recently about how remakes don't ruin the original story. They truly believe that variations from canon (like Black elves) will ruin the original story. Back in 2001, it was Peter Jackson trying to give Arwen more screen time that was ruining LOTR. (The worst tragedy of the year was Arwen replacing Glorfindel on that horse.)
GasBandit
Staff member
Gaiman said explicitly it was an economic issue. He even used that exact word.
To secure the actress who played Johanna, they had to give her more to do on screen then just that one scene in the pub. Originally he wrote John Constantine into the story as a crutch to lure in fans of other DC properties when Sandman was new and he wasn't confident it would build readership fast enough. Now he didn't feel That would be an issue so he had no problem rewriting John into another Johanna, giving her a lot more screen time and the securing the actress.
He's also said he found the decision "freeing" as he saw the Netflix adaptation as a way to update the Sandman story and make it more inclusive, he wanted more female characters and persons of color. This also isn't just a gender-swapped character, it's a new character, and Gaiman has said her backstory and arc will be unique to her.
Also, given was a mess the DCU, and it's continuity, are lately, it's probably best for Sandman that they separate themselves from it. They didn't get into Lyta and Hector's parentage, and it was probably for the best. It was complicated, even for a comic. Although, to my understanding, Johanna Constantine did appear in the Sandman comics, but this seems to be sort of a hybrid of her comic counterpart and the John Constantine we are more familiar with? (To be honest, I don't remember her in the comics, but it was something I came across before I saw the show.)
GasBandit
Staff member
Clearly. And even lampshaded it in episode 11. But I don't have a problem with the inclusive stuff. The actress playing Death did great, though I'm sure the toxic fandom criticized that casting a POC as Death was "woke." I was just disappointed there wasn't a crossover. Maybe because Marvel has spoiled us on those. And I was extra disappointed that it was a decision based on money first. Everything he said after that sounded like rationalizing. "We had to do it for economic reasons, but hey, it's not so bad because that also lets us etc etc..." Everything after the "but" wasn't the reason, it was softening the blow.
Again, the reason he gave first was "economic." So once that decision was made, he decided to make the most out of the change. So that's when the "new character with a new backstory" stuff all came about.
Well, you may have a point there.
I can understand simplification for the medium as well, like the elimination of the ruling triumvirate of Hell. Push comes to shove it was extra complication that, while it did persist across multiple titles, wasn't essential to the story.
Johanna was originally John's ancestor, and did have her own plot arc that was alluded to in the show ("I had her do a job for me and she performed admirably"). Maybe they are saving that for Season 2.
No items. Fox only. Final Destination.
The reviews for Rings of Power are pretty favorable for the most part. That news just made the fanboys even more enraged. According to them, the critics are paid shills and the new fans are obviously morons for liking something without the fanboys' permission. I think I'm beginning to understand why they were constantly beaten up at school.
I'm still waiting and watching the storm around it die down and I'll have a look at reviews and metascores when things settle down. I'm convinced it's pretty much crapping on all canon in a dozen ways. What I haven't quite found out is if it is a show worth watching when separated from LOTR and treated as a new fantasy IP. Currently the IMDB score is somewhere around 6.2, but how many of that is rabid dicks downvoting and how many of it is paid shills upvoting, I really can't tell.
I was kind of 'meh' about the show (('m not a Silmarillion or Elf fan), but I hope it's amazing and wins Emmys and lasts eight glorious seasons, just to make their heads explode. I'll definitely give it a try, especially since it's covering the Dwarves, too. (The one canon deviation I'm unhappy about is that the female Dwarves apparently don't have beards!
)
Rings of Power is ok so far. I used to be a huge Tolkien nerd, but I think the relevance of a 70 year old fantasy setting is well past its prime.
I’d hope that we’re past the fair skinned blond haired ideal of good vs the dirty black savages that destroy everything.
I don’t think Tolkien is bad, but I just think we can do better.
I’d hope that we’re past the fair skinned blond haired ideal of good vs the dirty black savages that destroy everything.
I don’t think Tolkien is bad, but I just think we can do better.
I said the same and a certain husband of mine had things to say.
It got late yesterday, so I only watched the first episode. I like it so far. The ending felt a bit like the beginning of a super hero show. All the male elves look like 70s David Bowie.
The diverse cast is not distracting . You can't make a movie or show in 2022 and have only one ethnicity.
The diverse cast is not distracting . You can't make a movie or show in 2022 and have only one ethnicity.
I just finished the second episode and I like it. The fanboys are still whining non-stop. I've noticed something of a pattern with people like them. They really don't like it when other people enjoy sci-fi or fantasy without their permission.
2018: "Why is everyone getting so excited over Black Panther? Because it has a black lead? Why doesn't anybody care about superhero movies starring the WHITES?!"
2019: "Brie Larson said something feminist and that means she hates white guys like me! Captain Marvel is going to be a dumpster fire. I'll just watch Alita instead."
2020: This was just a bad year overall so I don't blame them for being grouchy.
2021: "The Boys got nominated for multiple Emmy awards? It satirizes people who listen to Tucker Carlson so the showrunners must hate me!"
2022: "Black elves? REEEEEEEEE!!!"
2018: "Why is everyone getting so excited over Black Panther? Because it has a black lead? Why doesn't anybody care about superhero movies starring the WHITES?!"
2019: "Brie Larson said something feminist and that means she hates white guys like me! Captain Marvel is going to be a dumpster fire. I'll just watch Alita instead."
2020: This was just a bad year overall so I don't blame them for being grouchy.
2021: "The Boys got nominated for multiple Emmy awards? It satirizes people who listen to Tucker Carlson so the showrunners must hate me!"
2022: "Black elves? REEEEEEEEE!!!"
Diverse casting is not necessarily a problem. It's a problem when it feels shoehorned in.
In the Sandman, Lucien becomes Lucienne (white guy -> black woman); Death goes from white girl to black girl, John Constantine is changed into Johanna Constantine. None of those bothered me in the least, and I'm probably forgetting a dozen more. Had they changed Burgess (the rich old British lord who imprisons Dream around 1900) into a black woman, I would have been annoyed by it, because it wouldn't fit the character. Were there rich black women in the UK around the beginning of the century? Probably. Would that fit the narrative and the type of character? No.
Both the LOTR series and HotD have chosen to be more inclusive in their casting, and that is all well and good. I'm in favor of it, really I am. And I'm incredibly annoyed by the hordes of incel racist dumbfuck fanboys who are constantly trashing both over it and are reducing all possible criticism to "black elves bad".
However, I do think some choices were probably more concerned with "being woke" or "being inclusive" (since apparently woke is now a bad word and it's been given up on trying to be reclaimed) than they were with "staying true to the source material".
Now, to be clear, I haven't seen either of those new shows yet. It's quite possible that I'll enjoy them for what they are.
I'm not sure how real some of the screenshots or stills I've seen have been, but if they all are as they appear in the show...Well, I do wonder about some choices.
For LOTR, Tolkien (who wrote this stuff almost a hundred years ago in a very different world, so it can sure use some updating) included some races of color, and some clearly white, and a bunch where it isn't really specified. Having black dwarves doesn't sound in contrast to anything in any source I've ever read. Black elves...kinda do. Though if they're introduced as elves from another region of M-E or with another past historical event splitting them off from the supposed "fairest of them all", it might work. Humans are clearly described and some tribes/nations are mentioned with different colors (and some of this in a somewhat problematic way - i.e. the bad guys from the sandy lands in the south-east being brown). Plenty of ways to work in people from other colors without breaking the lore. The female dwarf without a beard shown in all the trailers and such, though? I genuinely don't understand why they felt the need to do that. I don't give a rat's ass she's darker colored, but beardless? No dwarf of mine!
As for HotD: A family and race known for their distinctive pale skin, bright white hair and purple eyes having black people among them is...weird. GRRM is a quite a bit more modern writer than JRRT was (obviously), and in GOT there are whole noble houses who are darker-skinned, from "dusky" over "raven" to "ebony". Most of the POC mentioned in the books got cut in the show or whitefaced, oddly enough. I mean, the men from the North and the Iron isles should probably all be white -though even there...Eh. The people from Dorne should all be sandy or darker. The whole series is written anew and I can't really see how introducing POC or whatever would seriously break or hurt the lore here.
To go on an even longer tangent, I think I mentioned it here earlier...In Star Trek: Discovery, a character mentions they want to be addressed as they/them rather than she/her. It felt fairly natural and made sense in-universe. The episode where they ask this, they're spoken to or about a few times and it all goes fairly naturally. And then at the end there's a short conversation between two other characters about them, and it's just so blatantly shoehorned in, the sentences don't flow, the whole conversation feels incredibly forced. I was genuinely disappointed - not with an enbie ST character, because really, what do I care, but with the weakness of the writing of that last conversation. It made it feel far more forced than it needed to be.
In the Sandman, Lucien becomes Lucienne (white guy -> black woman); Death goes from white girl to black girl, John Constantine is changed into Johanna Constantine. None of those bothered me in the least, and I'm probably forgetting a dozen more. Had they changed Burgess (the rich old British lord who imprisons Dream around 1900) into a black woman, I would have been annoyed by it, because it wouldn't fit the character. Were there rich black women in the UK around the beginning of the century? Probably. Would that fit the narrative and the type of character? No.
Both the LOTR series and HotD have chosen to be more inclusive in their casting, and that is all well and good. I'm in favor of it, really I am. And I'm incredibly annoyed by the hordes of incel racist dumbfuck fanboys who are constantly trashing both over it and are reducing all possible criticism to "black elves bad".
However, I do think some choices were probably more concerned with "being woke" or "being inclusive" (since apparently woke is now a bad word and it's been given up on trying to be reclaimed) than they were with "staying true to the source material".
Now, to be clear, I haven't seen either of those new shows yet. It's quite possible that I'll enjoy them for what they are.
I'm not sure how real some of the screenshots or stills I've seen have been, but if they all are as they appear in the show...Well, I do wonder about some choices.
For LOTR, Tolkien (who wrote this stuff almost a hundred years ago in a very different world, so it can sure use some updating) included some races of color, and some clearly white, and a bunch where it isn't really specified. Having black dwarves doesn't sound in contrast to anything in any source I've ever read. Black elves...kinda do. Though if they're introduced as elves from another region of M-E or with another past historical event splitting them off from the supposed "fairest of them all", it might work. Humans are clearly described and some tribes/nations are mentioned with different colors (and some of this in a somewhat problematic way - i.e. the bad guys from the sandy lands in the south-east being brown). Plenty of ways to work in people from other colors without breaking the lore. The female dwarf without a beard shown in all the trailers and such, though? I genuinely don't understand why they felt the need to do that. I don't give a rat's ass she's darker colored, but beardless? No dwarf of mine!
As for HotD: A family and race known for their distinctive pale skin, bright white hair and purple eyes having black people among them is...weird. GRRM is a quite a bit more modern writer than JRRT was (obviously), and in GOT there are whole noble houses who are darker-skinned, from "dusky" over "raven" to "ebony". Most of the POC mentioned in the books got cut in the show or whitefaced, oddly enough. I mean, the men from the North and the Iron isles should probably all be white -though even there...Eh. The people from Dorne should all be sandy or darker. The whole series is written anew and I can't really see how introducing POC or whatever would seriously break or hurt the lore here.
To go on an even longer tangent, I think I mentioned it here earlier...In Star Trek: Discovery, a character mentions they want to be addressed as they/them rather than she/her. It felt fairly natural and made sense in-universe. The episode where they ask this, they're spoken to or about a few times and it all goes fairly naturally. And then at the end there's a short conversation between two other characters about them, and it's just so blatantly shoehorned in, the sentences don't flow, the whole conversation feels incredibly forced. I was genuinely disappointed - not with an enbie ST character, because really, what do I care, but with the weakness of the writing of that last conversation. It made it feel far more forced than it needed to be.
You might think this, but the sad reality that the modern world has taught us is that some people don't understand sublety or subtext, and it's better to be blatant and really beat people over the head with it otherwise the fascists just won't get it.