Is Healthcare a Right?
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Chibibar
look at the bright side..... we didn't get political, just pure unadulterated flame 
Everyone should just take a step back, and take a breather. This thread is interesting, and I don't want it locked or relegated to the flame thread, for once I'd like to see everyone contribute without this turning into personal attacks.
Hey man, I tried. The only way it was going to stay civil was to disallow us to respond to another person's post. At least then it would only be our own opinion, not attacking someone else's.
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Chibibar
Agree.. I guess we should probably establish what is consider basic rights as humans.
Of course some of those rights "change" when you join a society and some of those "rights" are "altered" depending on what society you live in.
here is a perfect example.
Humans have the right to live.
But in some society, you don't have the right to live when you kill other humans.
or you have the right to live as long you contribute (i.e. old people get killed off in old society)
GasBandit would rather see me or anyone else in a similar situation dead rather than receive care that they have no chance in hell of paying for. You're damn right it's personal.
I still reserve the right to not die, and to take out anyone who would so actively deny me that right. If it's retarded to take down the guy who would pull the plug on me because I wasn't profitable, then it's retarded. But I'd still be here.
I still reserve the right to not die, and to take out anyone who would so actively deny me that right. If it's retarded to take down the guy who would pull the plug on me because I wasn't profitable, then it's retarded. But I'd still be here.
S
Singularity.EXE
Yes it is. People can go on and on about what the Founding Fathers wanted, what they meant, and how they wanted it implemented, but there's always one fact that seems to escape people. The Founding Fathers lived 200 fucking years ago, humanity and society has evolved and changed since then, and this retarded concept of sticking straight to the letter of men who still used fucking carrier pigeons to communicate is more then a little outdated.
As far as arguing against GB, you people have to realize this man called Terry Pratchett a "whiner" because Pratchett has been attempting to get Assisted Suicide legalized in England. The fucker seriously advocated that Pratchett "man-up" and stop complaining about euthanasia. GB's societal and political perspectives are locked in the Stone Age, there's no point in arguing with him.
As far as arguing against GB, you people have to realize this man called Terry Pratchett a "whiner" because Pratchett has been attempting to get Assisted Suicide legalized in England. The fucker seriously advocated that Pratchett "man-up" and stop complaining about euthanasia. GB's societal and political perspectives are locked in the Stone Age, there's no point in arguing with him.
Yes, but it's not up to GB, is it? You know he's just trying to draw you in and make drama. Every time he can get you frothing at the mouth, he gets an erection. I say don't make him so happy.
He's expressing an opinion, which gives you the chance to refute his own. It's not as though he's hell-bent on denying you rights that would prevent your existence.
Besides, for all of your disdain towards his opinions, you allow them to have great sway over your own.
To be fair, 'the right to not die' is a gross oversimplification. I believe healthcare is something that everybody should have access to, but to stand on a platform of 'the right to not die,' is impossible. Everyone contributing to this thread will die eventually, and not every death will be a violation of their rights.
Perhaps 'a right to prolong one's life as long as possible' might be more reasonable. Although, I doubt GasBandit would like it any better.
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Chibibar
well here is a question (note this is NOT a personal attack)
I would assume you are productive member of society. You work, pay your dues, just can't afford medical expenses to keep you going right?
What about those member of society who just leech off the system (medical, social and financial) and reap the benefits and don't pay anything back. The problem then someone HAS to pay back or the company will go bankrupt (no free service really) I think that is the underlying problem.
Many insurance company bottom line is to make a profit. They take on many people and maybe payout 5-10% (numbers totally out of my ass) and even out with the rest of the 90% who don't have any issues and keep on paying premiums thus the insurance company makes a profit and continue in business.
If a company (someone has to foot the bill) keep paying out and not enough money going in then what? Government subsidies tend to even out, but then you have red tapes to get anything done (see military health insurance. I have lots of friends tell me stories) when you turn to the private citizens paying for it, then the price has to be low enough to AFFORD insurance.
I look up Blue Cross Blue Shield (the company I'm with) to carry my own insurance solo for basic (with high deductibles like 1000$+ or something) is like 150$ a month. that is comparable with other companies. If the government wants to make it affordable to everyone then it has to be lower than that... how low? can people afford 50$ a month? 100$ a month? then how does private insurance compete when they are asking 150$+ a month and trying to make ends meet?
Currently my insurance is paid by my work (100%) and I found out it cost them like 450$ a month (we have good policy) it would suck for ME if there is a government one that is cheaper, but harder to see a doctor. (I am community college worker so community college will try to save money and probably switch to government plan to save money in the long run)
You don't have a 'right to not die'. I don't know where you're pulling that out of (actually, I do know where you're pulling that out of). You have a right not to be killed, which is something totally different.
And guess what, it's a moot point because, hey, you didn't die! Way to go guy! Congrats! OH, wait, you're complaining because the dollar figure associated with saving your life was higher than you were willing to pay, and instead of it being passed on to the 300 million people around you, you were forced to bear it yourself. Guess what? In some countries, if the cost was too high, you wouldn't get the treatment period. Or they'd ship you off to the private system in the US where the quality of health care is unbeaten (Primarily because they charge what the treatment is worth)
You should be humbled by the generosity of the millions of people who are willing to give up their hard earned money to help you out in your time of need instead of worrying about what some other guy thinks he should be able to do with his money.
---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------
And even that one begins to get fuzzy in cases like Terri Schiavo.
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Chazwozel
Society is developed as a way to protect your rights: i.e. laws and government.[/QUOTE]
As far as I see it, society both establishes and protects your rights. But if it establishes your rights, if you have to ask 'is it a right' the answer is probably no.
Should it be a right? Yes. But it's up to the society to declare it so.
Or, healthcare could be a right based on the rights we've already declared. If, for example, we've declared that every citizen (or every human, for that matter) has the right to a full life, then healthcare logically follows.[/QUOTE]
Well my heath care for prisoners example fits that idea perfectly. It's similar to the 2nd amendment really. You have a right to bare arms, correct? It's implied as to what that right is for. Same with giving prisoners the right to health care, I'm sure that the founding fathers would extend that to the nations citizens, if health care back then was a practical thing to look into.
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Andromache
preservation of life as humanly possible?
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Chibibar
Society is developed as a way to protect your rights: i.e. laws and government.[/QUOTE]
As far as I see it, society both establishes and protects your rights. But if it establishes your rights, if you have to ask 'is it a right' the answer is probably no.
Should it be a right? Yes. But it's up to the society to declare it so.
Or, healthcare could be a right based on the rights we've already declared. If, for example, we've declared that every citizen (or every human, for that matter) has the right to a full life, then healthcare logically follows.[/QUOTE]
Well my heath care for prisoners example fits that idea perfectly. It's similar to the 2nd amendment really. You have a right to bare arms, correct? It's implied as to what that right is for. Same with giving prisoners the right to health care, I'm sure that the founding fathers would extend that to the nations citizens, if health care back then was a practical thing to look into.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure if it is true or not, but currently I *heard* that some prisoners live better than poor bum on the streets
(food, shelter, and medical)Now that's comedy. Willing. You should head to Hollywood, 'cause that's just golden.
When one night in CICU can run well past some folks' annual salary, we're waaay past willing.
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Chibibar
I do believe that is what most society is trying to do. Some countries promote universal healtcare (or "free" in terms of government support via taxpayers money), which would follow this idea IMO.
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Chazwozel
Now that's comedy. Willing. You should head to Hollywood, 'cause that's just golden.
When one night in CICU can run well past some folks' annual salary, we're waaay past willing.[/QUOTE]
Boy DarkAudit, you should start a gang with this crimewave of ripping off the common man with your medical expenses.
The Dark Bandit! He comes into your hospital in the middle of the night and steals your operating table!
Right. See ... yeah, that makes sense.
Considering that society is the banding together of people for common benefit, I would probably argue that the right to healthcare could very easily follow from that. But all to often when we talk about rights, someone is talking about some god-given principle that says they're allowed to shoot at the neighbor's kids or something.
Working with the Salvation Army, I've heard stuff similar to this. Someone who's homeless up here will sometimes break into a home or business in the fall, and then wait in the living room to be arrested. They shoot for a six month sentence. The penitentiary is warm, and a lot more forgiving than a St. John's winter on the streets.I am not sure if it is true or not, but currently I *heard* that some prisoners live better than poor bum on the streets
Now that's comedy. Willing. You should head to Hollywood, 'cause that's just golden.
When one night in CICU can run well past some folks' annual salary, we're waaay past willing.[/QUOTE]
Boy DarkAudit, you should start a gang with this crimewave of ripping off the common man with your medical expenses.
The Dark Bandit! He comes into your hospital in the middle of the night and steals your operating table![/QUOTE]
Gimme an EKG or the kid gets it!
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Chibibar
Now that's comedy. Willing. You should head to Hollywood, 'cause that's just golden.
When one night in CICU can run well past some folks' annual salary, we're waaay past willing.[/QUOTE]
Generally this is what insurance is there for. Out of personal curiosity, were you denied insurance due to previous health issue? (I saw a post earlier but wasn't sure if that was the answer to the question or fighting with GB)
I can assure you than many of us here cannot afford the full cost of many medical services if we didn't have insurance.
I think the solution would need to gear toward
1. Should medical cover everyone and free? if so, who pays for the actual cost? This is the basis of the OP to revolve if healthcare is a right or not.
2. Should everyone have health insurance instead that is affordable to any income earners, but then what about people who doesn't have a job, are they cover? but if they are not covered then emergency arise, then the cost has to be paid somewhere.
The problem with scenario 2 is that someone has to bear the cost. Hospital still incur the cost and someone has to pay for it, so will "increase" the cost for the people who CAN pay for it which pass the cost to insurance company. The insurance company doesn't want to take a loss so increase premium to their members. So the members of the insurance company get stuck with the "bill" from the uninsured people but spread over thousands if not millions of members across the nation.
so we know that this system is not perfect and well... to me kinda broken since insurance rate is so high that even working people can't afford it. What do we do? (but to answer that will get political wouldn't it?)
North_Ranger
Staff member
Rrrrrooooiiiiggghhhttt.
*unzip*
*fling*
Time for a sauna thread, bitches.
*unzip*
*fling*
Time for a sauna thread, bitches.
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JCM
We have a winner.
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Le Quack
We should socialize hospitals!
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crono1224
And you know if he had a heart problem he maybe able to get coverage but anything heart related would be excluded due to pre-existing condition. But of course people with jobs lucky enough to give health care or lucky enough to not have medical problems that warrant it.
Also it can easily be between 600-1000$ a month for insurance through COBRA or what ever, and that maybe way over peoples salary.
Yes i think people deserve the right to health care.
Also it can easily be between 600-1000$ a month for insurance through COBRA or what ever, and that maybe way over peoples salary.
Yes i think people deserve the right to health care.
Are you high again?
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I know illegal immigrants are a problem in the states, should they receive free healthcare or not? Many of you would not like those whom are off the tax grid to gain the same privileges as you do, so I wonder how that scenario would be dealt with.
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Le Quack
Lets give free health care to illegal immigrants. Its not in tow with party line, but I think we should
Or hospitalize socialists.
GasBandit
Staff member
No, you're confusing entitlement with charity again. WIC, Habitat for humanity are there to help correct a problem because we as a society don't want people to starve or be homeless. But nowhere in our laws, be it in the constitution or any other document, say that we have a RIGHT to these things. If you have a right to something, you can demand it at any point. I'm glad you think I have a right to food, housing, electricity and health care. I can quit my job and just start demanding these things be provided for me.
Once again - logical fallacies in your post:
Ad Hominem
Straw Man
Appeal to Emotion
Furthermore, you do not have a right to not die. No government, no person, no power on earth can make that come true... you're going to die at some point. You have a right not to be killed or injured by the action (or inaction) of another, which is why I said what MindDetective said had merit to it. But you're just in here slinging invective like you always accuse me of doing, while I'm trying to engage in calm discussion.
Oh, so now I have to BE an accomplished humanitarian to have opinions on what's good for society? Let's turn some of your earlier logic right back on you, Dr Chaz - how's the compensation at your pharma? Probably a lot more lucrative than any job at my radio company, I'd wager, so shouldn't that invalidate your opinions as it does mine?
Again - there is no right. Your rights, as still defined by our society are Life, Liberty and the pursuit (the pursuit, not the guarantee) of happiness. Or, as it was previously worded, life, liberty and property. You have the right not to be killed, injured, opressed, or stolen from. You have the right to equal protection under the law. That's it. You do not have the RIGHT to demand food that is not yours. You do not have the RIGHT to demand housing that is not yours. You do not have the RIGHT to demand healthcare you won't pay for. However, these things are often provided anyway, through both government and private channels, to those who need them out of a sense of charity. But that does not mean that those who receive those services are entitled to them as a RIGHT.
Please, just remember vividly who started slinging mud while others were trying to have a calm discussion of divergent opinions - protip - it wasn't Gas Bandit.
I never said any of that, except one line clearly in jest. But good luck on your quest to live forever, and I hope you don't hurt anybody when you go around demanding they make you immortal.
That might be something, had we made that declaration. But we haven't.
I happen to be wearing short sleeves even at the moment! Fear me!
Ok, in seriousness - no, I do not believe the founding fathers would have done so, because everything in their nature was to abhor government control of the lives of the citizenry. To the founding fathers, the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness meant that you can't be 1)killed or injured unjustly, 2)imprisoned or repressed for political reasons and/or without being convicted of a crime by your peers, or 3)denied the chance to chase your dreams so long as you didn't infringe on anybody else's rights.
Everybody is guaranteed the right to play, not to win.
Oh, and as further testament to the maturity of those involved in the debate on the other side, please make note of the thread tags. I sure didn't put that there.
K
Kitty Sinatra
It's easy to deny them health care in a universal system. I mentioned this in another thread. Here in Ontario when we go to the hospital, doctor, and any other service covered by out government health care, we must present a photo ID "Health Card"
The health card contains an id number (distinct from our Social ID number) that lets the health care system track us and keep all the services in sync with our personal history.
Anyway. You can deny illegal immigrants (or even landed immigrants if you're feeling stingy) whatever level of health care you want by simply not issuing them a card. Really smurfing simple.
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As for the topic. I'm waffling on whether I'd call it a "right." It ultimately seems like a matter of semantics - i say this because Rob and Chaz seem to be essentially in agreement on everything except the term "right" - and so I'll say that
Yes, it is a right
Because I believe that universal, government provided health care is a smarter, better, more humane solution than what came before it here and the mess down there in the States, and calling it a right makes it more likely to stay this way (with improvements I hope)
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Chibibar
GB does make sense when he explain himself (gah! I'm agreeing with him again)
But that brings back to our original topic.
What is basic rights everyone should have?
What society given rights that everyone should have? (this differ from each society)
Gruebeard- Yes, it is a solution, but also changes the oath doctors take when they became doctors unless they are willing to give free care out of their own pocket.
But that brings back to our original topic.
What is basic rights everyone should have?
What society given rights that everyone should have? (this differ from each society)
Gruebeard- Yes, it is a solution, but also changes the oath doctors take when they became doctors
unless they are willing to give free care out of their own pocket.
Which just leads to more questions for me. I mean, what is a self-righteous fuck? Feeling morally superior to others about getting it on?
So many questions...
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