Pigs are more awesome than you

[JCM]

against today's Islamic rules (but allowed by the Qran)

Against Islam... allowed in Islam's rulebook... against Islam... allowed in Islam's rulebook... Against Islam SYSTEM ERROR---

*slams forehead against desk repeatedly*

WHY. ARE. PEOPLE. SO. STUPID.[/QUOTE]Because people change religions to control people? Its weird that I cant get a marriage certificate in ANY Islamic country because she's Christian. But the Qran allows me to marry Christians.

 

[Shegokigo]

Shego- yes, its not as unclean as before, if you get pig meat from modern rearing farms and know exactly where your bacon comes from. And its also forbidden by my religion, so I avoid eating it. Of course, I wont follow everything, for example, I maried Luiza, who is from a very Catholic family, against today's Islamic rules (but allowed by the Qran), but theres no harm in not eating pig meat, is there?

So then yes, you are saying that while you personally don't believe in the "reason", you still do it basedly soley on the fact that the religion tells you not to? Though you pick and choose which parts of it to follow? I'm confused.

 

[Hailey Knight]

.

 

[Shegokigo]

Hardly, I'm not trying to stir the pot, it's a very curious question I have. I was raised by a very VERY catholic family (father was a deacon) and I'm now atheist, but I find people's different takes on religion interesting. Especially when intelligent people defend certain parts of a religion that don't make intelligent sense. Though usually they use the "faith" excuse.

 

[JCM]

I too was raised in a very religious Catholic family.

Shego- yes, its not as unclean as before, if you get pig meat from modern rearing farms and know exactly where your bacon comes from. And its also forbidden by my religion, so I avoid eating it. Of course, I wont follow everything, for example, I maried Luiza, who is from a very Catholic family, against today's Islamic rules (but allowed by the Qran), but theres no harm in not eating pig meat, is there?

So then yes, you are saying that while you personally don't believe in the "reason", you still do it basedly soley on the fact that the religion tells you not to? Though you pick and choose which parts of it to follow? I'm confused.[/QUOTE]Yes you are confused. No. I believe in the reason, the more popular reason we know, is less of a problem, but it still exists.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/366301_pigmrsa09.html
http://www.pigprogress.net/news/drug-resistant-bacteria-discovered-in-pork-id1675.html

And no. I choose to follow what makes sense, and that is almost always in line with the Qran, and Buddhism. An easier way to put it forth to you would be, you obey a trafficlight, but when its 2 am, there are no other cars around, would you stop at a red light?

 

[Shegokigo]

So then you only obey the rules if you'd get caught? That's what your analogy suggests.

I sort of get what you're saying "Obey the rule when it applies, if the rule doesn't apply then it's forfeit". But doesn't that in itself, go against the foundation of the religion?

 

[ElJuski]

gatdamn I love me some bacon.

 

[JCM]

So then you only obey the rules if you'd get caught?

What is the purpose of a traffic light? To control traffic.

When there's no traffic, it no longers serves a purpose, so I'll ignore it. Just like when it cant handle traffic, traffic policemen ignore it and direct traffic on their own.

Obey the rule when it applies, if the rule doesn't apply then it's forfeit". But doesn't that in itself, go against the foundation of the religion?

Like all those laws in the old testament?

Its called "obey the rule when its something good, applies to you and makes sense". The Qran calls for death of unbelievers, for example. But that direction was given DURING a war, and its in a chapter about that war, so its for the Arabs during war, and doesnt apply now. Just like you dont follow the rules against eating swine from the old Testament (but the ten commandments), because they were given to the Jews, and Im sure you dont follow Jewish law.

Which is why you dont see secular Muslims entering AlQaeda or Hezbollah.

 

[Shegokigo]

So why say you follow a religion at all? Why not just "live life smart"? I mean, picking and choosing parts of a religion that make sense and ignoring the ones that don't might as well be reading a self-help book no?

 

[Hailey Knight]

gatdamn I love me some bacon.

I know! Making me hungry for it, but all we have for breakfast is oranges and Cheerios.

They ain't that cheerful though. You know what's cheerful? Fucking bacon.

 

[JCM]

*headslap* Did you even read Shego?

So why say you follow a religion at all? Why not just "live life smart"? I mean, picking and choosing parts of a religion that make sense and ignoring the ones that don't might as well be reading a self-help book no?

Why do you say you follow the Bible, when you dont follow most rules god laid out in the Old Testament? Why do most religious people ignore rules about fornication?

Not following rules for times of war/Islamic law that contradicts the Qran and moral sense =/= not following a religion.
Arabs marry four wives because, yet its supposed to be at the time of war, and only to protect widows and the like. Why should I follow that, instead of following the Qran, and common sense?

So Shego, do you follow all the rules mentioned in the Old Testament?

 

[Shegokigo]

I'm atheist, I don't follow any religion or it's rules.

I was brought up in a Catholic home, but as soon as I was old enough to think for myself I realized how aboslutely insane it was for anyone to claim "they knew what their god wanted and everyonelse was wrong but them". Every religion had it's "prophet" that claimed to have brought the word of their God to it's people and wrote it down in a "tell all book".

In my eyes, John the Baptist/prophet/whatever was no more right than the mormon leader "John/Jacob/whatever Smith" or Hubbert and his Xeno.

 

[JCM]

gatdamn I love me some bacon.

I know! Making me hungry for it, but all we have for breakfast is oranges and Cheerios.

They ain't that cheerful though. You know what's cheerful? Fucking bacon.[/QUOTE]Have you ever noted how everything forbidden by religious is damn good?

Sex (outside marriage), Booze (in some religions), Pig meat (some christian sects, Jews and Muslims), and the like, are all damn good. Which makes sense, having a rule saying "you are forbidden to squeeze your testicles slowly with pliers" wont make sense, because almost noone would do that anyway.

 

[JCM]

I'm atheist, I don't follow any religion or it's rules.

To put it in a non-religious context, there are shitloads of old archaic laws that dont apply in USA today, yet still exist. For example, California (according to http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/california)-

-Sunshine is guaranteed to the masses.
-Animals are banned from mating publicly within 1,500 feet of a tavern, school, or place of worship.
-Bathhouses are against the law.
-It is a misdemeanor to shoot at any kind of game from a moving vehicle, unless the target is a whale.
-Women may not drive in a house coat.
-No vehicle without a driver may exceed 60 miles per hour.
-You cannot leave your car on the street overnight without the proper permit.
-Peacocks have the right of way to cross any street, including driveways.
-Nobody is allowed to ride a bicycle in a swimming pool.
-City Council order reads: “No dog shall be in a public place without its master on a leash.
-You are not permitted to wear cowboy boots unless you already own at least two cows.
-It is illegal to spit, except on baseball diamonds.
-It is prohibited to sleep in a parked vehicle.
-Persons may not ride their bicycles through the “Fountain of Life”.
-One may not bring their dog to school.
-All dog “waste” must be removed from any yard within seven days.
-One must obtain a permit from the city to throw hay in a cesspool.
-it is illegal to own a green or smelly animal hide.
-Bowling on the sidewalk is illegal.
-Driving a herd of cattle down a street is against the law.

Can you say that someone is a criminal because he doesnt follow old archaic laws that were made for some old reason? Is any Californian forumite who has cowboy boots but no cows is a criminal?

The same happens with religion-
-The bible's old testament's laws (but for the 10 commandments) dont apply to christians, as they were laws handed down to Jews.
-Stuff like the call for jihad, marriage with 4 women, having slaves, et al, dont apply to me, because there is no war against Islam, just wars against corrupt and morally-defunct countries, there are no slaves et al.

So following a religion doesnt mean to blindly take anything that is said, but to study and understand it. Thats the biggest problem in the world actually, people blindly following religion.

 

[Shegokigo]

Difference being, I'm not forced to follow religious laws. If there is an archaic law in effect in my living area I MUST follow it whether I want to or not for fear of punishement.

With religion, you have a choice whether to be in it or not. The question is "Can you claim to follow a religion if you don't uphold to it dilligently?"

If so, deemed by who? Yourself? You didn't create the religion, therefore you cannot claim to be part of a group if the leader doesn't say you can.

 

[JCM]

If there is an archaic law in effect in my living area I MUST follow it whether I want to or not for fear of punishement.

And most probably dont know most of these archaic laws, and they are not even enforced anymore.

"Can you claim to follow a religion if you don't uphold to it dilligently?"

Thats where you presume not following Jewish law in the old Testament, or war-time laws in the Qran, makes you someone who doesnt uphold it, instead of someone who read it and understood when those rules apply/applied?

Weird.

If so, deemed by who? Yourself? You didn't create the religion, therefore you cannot claim to be part of a group if the leader doesn't say you can.

The Bible says that anyone who accepts Jesus as their savior is a Crhistian.
The Qran says that anyone who says the Syahaddah is a Muslim.

If you'd rather prefer to follow just one of millions of religious leaders of millions of religions, sects and cults, than Im afraid I'd rather follow the word of God. And understand it, learn all views and takes on that message, instead of just following one person's take on it?

 

[Shegokigo]

Yes, but who wrote those books and do you follow everything they wrote in them since they "set the rules" so it's "their club"? What makes "your relilgion" (speaking in general) the one with the "right prophet"?

How is the "qran" any more "right" than the "Book of Xeno"?

 

[Hailey Knight]

I think what JCM is saying is that he's going to follow what's important in a religion, focused upon, rather than get tied up in all the smaller irrelevant details.

 

[Shegokigo]

He said he would rather follow the word of God.

My question is "The word of God according to who?" And what makes that version of the "word of God" right over the others?

 

[JCM]

Im sorry, but the concept that "to be of a faith you must follow a group" sadly doesnt apply to what is mentioned in the Holy Books.
I cant blame you for becoming an atheist, if thats what you were taught.

God doesnt belong to just one religion, or "club".

How is the "qran" any more "right" than the "Book of Xeno"?

Its the one most sound, and the one I believe in, the religion I follow, but then I also read anything from the Bible to the book of Mormon.

I also go to church with my wife, to the Brahma Kumaris Buddhist center nearby and once in a while visit some new evangelical church. Every religion has it flaws, but every one has good things you can learn.

"The word of God according to who?"

According to all holy books? The small details may change, but the core rules are just about the same.

1)Believe in god
2)Try to be a good person.

 

[Hailey Knight]

That's going to go to each individual's faith. I know you mentioned that earlier as in most people fall back on that, but understanding that to be important in spirituality or religion would've saved me the trouble of a lot of arguments with Christians who believed Noah brought dinosaurs on his ark when I was younger. Faith, believing what you do even without evidence, or if evidence is against it, and no matter how many layers of rules you dig through, eventually you're going to hit that core.

At that point, there's really nothing to argue about. No one knows at that point; it's about faith then, and it's going to differ for each person. There's no "right" to it.

 

[Shegokigo]

So then what you're saying JCM is that you take advice, that's sound, from multiple different "books" and apply them to your life to "live smart"?

Escushion: That's basically what I'm trying to get at, if it's just a simple leave of intelligence and a matter of faith.

 

[JCM]

That's going to go to each individual's faith.

Which is also the biggest test. For you to believe in God, you must look for him, and have faith.

It would be no test if God appeared, blew sinners up, made every nuclear weapon become a coconut tree and said, here I am, worship me.

 

[Krisken]

gatdamn I love me some bacon.

I could go for a nice pork roast myself. Slow cooked to perfection with carrots, potatoes and some onions.

 

[JCM]

So then what you're saying JCM is that you take advice, that's sound, from multiple different "books" and apply them to your life to "live smart"?

I say that Im a secular Muslim (I dont follow the Sunni-Shiite sects) and follow Buddhism, have belonged to other religions, but also read other religious books, visit other religious groups and learn other points of view.

Pretty much why I like to travel, and learn languages, because there is always something out there for you to learn.

leave of intelligence and a matter of faith

Shegiko, ae you claiming athat anyone following a religion is bereft of intelligence?

Its disappointing when one generalizes so, but then sadly many religious people commit the same mistake when referring to atheists. *sigh*

 

[Krisken]

I think I know what Shego is trying to say with that statement, but it's very hard to say it without sounding insulting or dismissive.

I would say in those rare cases when a person leaves something to faith, they decide that logic and reason are not tools which would help them find meaning in an act. Where you understand the logic and the reasoning behind not eating pork, you decide to abstain from eating pork as an expression of your devotion to your faith, not as an excuse of it.

 

[Chazwozel]

against today's Islamic rules (but allowed by the Qran)

Against Islam... allowed in Islam's rulebook... against Islam... allowed in Islam's rulebook... Against Islam SYSTEM ERROR---

*slams forehead against desk repeatedly*

WHY. ARE. PEOPLE. SO. STUPID.[/QUOTE]Because people change religions to control people? Its weird that I cant get a marriage certificate in ANY Islamic country because she's Christian. But the Qran allows me to marry Christians.[/QUOTE]


Aren't you supposed to convert the infidels first?

 

[Chazwozel]

Shego- yes, its not as unclean as before, if you get pig meat from modern rearing farms and know exactly where your bacon comes from. And its also forbidden by my religion, so I avoid eating it. Of course, I wont follow everything, for example, I maried Luiza, who is from a very Catholic family, against today's Islamic rules (but allowed by the Qran), but theres no harm in not eating pig meat, is there?

So then yes, you are saying that while you personally don't believe in the "reason", you still do it basedly soley on the fact that the religion tells you not to? Though you pick and choose which parts of it to follow? I'm confused.[/QUOTE]Yes you are confused. No. I believe in the reason, the more popular reason we know, is less of a problem, but it still exists.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/366301_pigmrsa09.html
http://www.pigprogress.net/news/drug-resistant-bacteria-discovered-in-pork-id1675.html

And no. I choose to follow what makes sense, and that is almost always in line with the Qran, and Buddhism. An easier way to put it forth to you would be, you obey a trafficlight, but when its 2 am, there are no other cars around, would you stop at a red light?[/QUOTE]

Dude, do you really want me to pull up primary journal articles about antibiotic resistant bacteria found in cattle, sheep, and birds? Just admit that you don't eat pork because of your religion and be done with it. There is no valid reason not to eat port as much as Hindu's not eating cows.

I've always wondered what makes cud chewing animals so special...

 

[JCM]

On meat- Thanks for preaching to the choir, everyone's noted that today's pig rearing has improved drastically over before, when they were actually a danger.

This is no longer that big a problem (just 124 deaths in 10 years in caliornia, for example), but then just like you guys dont eat frog, horse, armadillo, tortoise, turtle, cats or dogs for many reasons. I consider pig an unclean animal, and I dont want to eat it, thats as valid as any reason people dont eat any of the aforementioned animals.


On wife's faith- I have no reason to change my wife's faith. Unless she started cheering for the Argentinian soccer team, then that would be divorce.
I kid, really..

 

[Chazwozel]

I have no reason to change my wife's faith.

Unless she started cheering for the Argentinian soccer team, then that would be divorce.
I kid, really..

According to your wife's faith, you're not really married to her unless you convert to Catholicism and go through the first three or four sacraments.

 

[Chazwozel]

So why say you follow a religion at all? Why not just "live life smart"? I mean, picking and choosing parts of a religion that make sense and ignoring the ones that don't might as well be reading a self-help book no?

Why do you say you follow the Bible, when you dont follow most rules god laid out in the Old Testament? Why do most religious people ignore rules about fornication?

Not following rules for times of war/Islamic law that contradicts the Qran and moral sense =/= not following a religion.
Arabs marry four wives because, yet its supposed to be at the time of war, and only to protect widows and the like. Why should I follow that, instead of following the Qran, and common sense?

So Shego, do you follow all the rules mentioned in the Old Testament?[/QUOTE]

Technically, Christians don't follow the Old Testament rules because of Jesus being the new covenant between man and God. They're supposed to follow the guidelines set forth by him, and they're really really non descriptive guidelines.

I'm confused by what you say when you mean war. Because certainly many Muslims do consider themselves at war.

 

[Hailey Knight]

I consider pig an unclean animal, and I dont want to eat it, thats as valid as any reason people dont eat any of the aforementioned animals.

.

 

[JCM]

I have no reason to change my wife's faith.

Unless she started cheering for the Argentinian soccer team, then that would be divorce.
I kid, really..

According to your wife's faith, you're not really married to her unless you convert to Catholicism and go through the first three or four sacraments.[/QUOTE]Funnily, Brazil churches, in the world's biggest catholic country, doesn't prohibit it. (looking at interfaith websites now, it seems its no problem in American churches too). EDIT:And theres no Nuptial Mass when one of the two isnt a catholic, but seeing I was baptized and born a Catholic, its just discouraged.

The only thing asked was that my kid go to catholic church and be Baptized. Which I dont mind.

I'm confused by what you say when you mean war. Because certainly many Muslims do consider themselves at war.

Holy war = War against your religion, with the intent to destroy it.

What I see is the usual Sunni/Shiites killing themselves, USA killing terrorists in Afghanistan and some tribal wars in Africa. The day theres a crusade or something, then it'll be a Jihad. Until then, Jihad doesnt apply to me, but for inner Jihad.
-----------------------------------------------------
A side note, people of the book (aka Jews and Christians) are given special considerations under the Qran, a Muslim can accept non-halal food from a Christian table and marry Christians -
-This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful unto you in marriage are not only women who are believers, but women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).[FONT=times new roman,times]
(5:5)

[/FONT]

 

[North_Ranger]

I consider pig an unclean animal, and I dont want to eat it, thats as valid as any reason people dont eat any of the aforementioned animals.

Sooooo... sending you and Luisa a 20-pound gift basket of smoked ham and bacon as a baby shower prezzie would be a bad idea?

 

[JCM]

I consider pig an unclean animal, and I dont want to eat it, thats as valid as any reason people dont eat any of the aforementioned animals.

Sooooo... sending you and Luisa a 20-pound gift basket of smoked ham and bacon as a baby shower prezzie would be a bad idea? [/QUOTE]She doesnt like to eat pig meat (but for ham), but her family love pork chops.