Lost: The Final Season (un-marked spoilers as it airs on the East Coast)

[Raemon777]

Can you link an article that you think does a good job of explaining it? Because that was the most obvious interpretation to me too.

Regardless of what other interpretations exist, the fact that that is a fairly common interpretation that many lay people come to on their own makes it all the more relevant to Smokey/Jacob. Yes, when you know all the facts and have studied the issue, Jacob may very well be the good guy, but at first glance he really doesn't give much reason to trust him.

 

[AshburnerX]

Your view of the story of Job is, uh... different... I would suggest maybe reading some of the scholarly commentary articles about Job before going to far down the path of "this is what Job is about".

I do understand that the message of Job was supposed to be about how truth faith will endure hardship and that only praying to someone when they help you is inherently selfish and that you need to accept that he might not always have your back. I'm simply pointing out that this message loses it's strength when the only reason Job faced hardship was because God wrecked his shit. You could argue that it was God's right to do it because he was the one who gave it to him, but that just makes him seem even more petty. Then again, Old Testament God was an asshole, so it's perfectly in character for him.

Honestly, this will all probably make more sense once the episode focusing on Jacob comes out. I think it's supposed to be the second to last one or something. Maybe then the comparison will be meaningless.

 

[Espy]

I really don't want to get the topic to far off, but...
Of course it's going to depend on where you do your reading but the "true faith will endure hardship" is not the message I would ascribe to Job, nor would I try to interpret it nearly as literally as you are. I would agree with most textual critics that while it is part of the wisdom lit genre it's really a theodicy, that goes beyond the usual justification of God's ways in the world (here's a hint why: He's God, you won't ever really comprehend His ways, not fully) and instead poses the query: What is the source of wisdom.

A ridiculously simple way to look at the story (and this is far to simple for me personally, but we are comparing one of the most complicated and written about texts from the ancient periods to a silly TV show so why not right? ) would be to say that what we actually have is God allowing the normal sufferings of life to fall on Job, just like everyone else, causing Job to ask "why?" and attempt to understand the suffering of life all humans deal with. In this a debate arises about where true wisdom comes from. In the end God alone is the "source" of wisdom and suffering is merely a part of the world we live since we are in a "fallen" world. God does nothing to Job, he merely allows the normal suffering of the time to affect him instead of guarding him from it. Also: I wouldn't take it literally but as Jewish drama to explain suffering.

Thats like, the worst way I can broach the subject of Job. It takes me 3 days with my undergrad class to even cover the basic themes and idea presented in what is widely considered in scholarly circles one of the hardest texts in Jewish literature. So if you can fit that into Lost then cool, but I don't know if it works...

@Raemon777 As far as a good article... thats really hard to say. Most of my reading comes from commentaries and research journals that aren't online. The best laymans summary of Job I can suggest would be from Dillard and Longmans Intro to the Old Testament, it's graduate level stuff meaning it goes into the theory and lit of the book, which is really what shapes it and one must have to really understand the text, it's almost gibbledy gook without it in my opinion.

 

[Dieb]

I didn't know you had studied religion Espy, facinating stuff. I keep on meaning to study the Bible on an intense level, it really is one of the largest (probably the largest) foundation of Western thought. I've just never had the time/been too lazy.

 

[@Li3n]

s. It really doesn't matter that things worked out in the end for Job, because things would have been fine if God hadn't messed up his life to begin with. It also doesn't absolve him of killing Job's first wife and their children, whom things certainly didn't work out for.

Maybe i'm remembering it wrong, but God didn't kill his family or do anything at all, he just lets Satan do whatever he wants... i'm pretty sure i saw it brought up in other places too, as in the whole of the Bible Job's family are the only deaths attributed to Satan, while God kills millions...

Yup: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html

Thats like, the worst way I can broach the subject of Job. It takes me 3 days with my undergrad class to even cover the basic themes and idea presented in what is widely considered in scholarly circles one of the hardest texts in Jewish literature. So if you can fit that into Lost then cool, but I don't know if it works...

Well that's only if you decide to go philosophical on it's ass. Otherwise "you should believe even when it's not convenient/doesn't get you anything" is a pretty good synopsis.

I keep on meaning to study the Bible on an intense level, it really is one of the largest (probably the largest) foundation of Western thought.

No, those would be "stuff the ancient greeks wrote", and not just because the early church scholars where influenced by them.

 

[Espy]

I didn't know you had studied religion Espy, facinating stuff. I keep on meaning to study the Bible on an intense level, it really is one of the largest (probably the largest) foundation of Western thought. I've just never had the time/been too lazy.

Yeah, I'm finishing up my masters right now and plan to go on to my PhD in Old Testament Lit as soon as I get my languages finished (which is no easy task, french, german, hebrew and greek, yay).

Anyway, yeah, Lost... tonight... I can't wait although I'll probably have to wait until thursday to watch it which means I have to avoid this thread so I don't find anything out.

 

[strawman]

I didn't know you had studied religion Espy, facinating stuff. I keep on meaning to study the Bible on an intense level, it really is one of the largest (probably the largest) foundation of Western thought. I've just never had the time/been too lazy.

Yeah, I'm finishing up my masters right now and plan to go on to my PhD in Old Testament Lit as soon as I get my languages finished (which is no easy task, french, german, hebrew and greek, yay).

Anyway, yeah, Lost... tonight... I can't wait although I'll probably have to wait until thursday to watch it which means I have to avoid this thread so I don't find anything out. [/QUOTE]

Ugh, don't remind me. I have to miss it tonight too. sigh

 

[AshburnerX]

Wow... that was the most sudden and anti climatic death of the series. I mean, yeah, everyone knows that dropping the dynamite is a bad idea, but wasn't she the first one to get themselves killed by doing it? Not to mention it seems like it was almost done just as an excuse to get rid of her story-wise, like she had other commitments or something.

I AM glad that they got rid of it all in this episode though, now that they've dropped the hammer on someone for mishandling it. It was used far too often with nothing bad happening to anyone for using it.

 

[Calleja]

Wow... that was the most sudden and anti climatic death of the series. I mean, yeah, everyone knows that dropping the dynamite is a bad idea, but wasn't she the first one to get themselves killed by doing it? Not to mention it seems like it was almost done just as an excuse to get rid of her story-wise, like she had other commitments or something.

I AM glad that they got rid of it all in this episode though, now that they've dropped the hammer on someone for mishandling it. It was used far too often with nothing bad happening to anyone for using it.

Uh.. dude, that's the SECOND time a character is suddenly and unexpectedly killed off by that dynamite. Remember the teacher guy? People got his guts all over them after he blew up real good?


That was such a great effin' episode, though.

 

[MindDetective]

The dynamite scene was awesome. My wife and I were practically yelling at the TV. "Stop cramming things in your bag you idiot!" When she blew up, we cheered. The awesome episodes keep coming.

 

[AshburnerX]

Wow... that was the most sudden and anti climatic death of the series. I mean, yeah, everyone knows that dropping the dynamite is a bad idea, but wasn't she the first one to get themselves killed by doing it? Not to mention it seems like it was almost done just as an excuse to get rid of her story-wise, like she had other commitments or something.

I AM glad that they got rid of it all in this episode though, now that they've dropped the hammer on someone for mishandling it. It was used far too often with nothing bad happening to anyone for using it.

Uh.. dude, that's the SECOND time a character is suddenly and unexpectedly killed off by that dynamite. Remember the teacher guy? People got his guts all over them after he blew up real good?


That was such a great effin' episode, though.[/QUOTE]

I've only been watching since last season, after seeing the Via Domus game, so I may not have seen that one.

And yeah, it was a great episode. Anytime Hugo takes the spot light, it seems like the producers are trying to make up for some of the bullshit they put the characters through.

 

[Calleja]

...then don't talk about "the most___ in the series" T_T

How the HELL did you manage to jump on so late, though!? Man that must have been confusing and hard as fuck

 

[Rubicon]

Good episode indeed. Who didnt see the dynamite thing coming?

Just to show you how twisted it is to get with all the characters and who is what, I don't even remember Michael dying. I could have sworn he like, jumped off that ship before it blew up.

At least we know what all the whispers in the jungle are.

All the stuff with Libby and Hurley were golden. any time the big man gets a dose of happiness, is alright by me.

Oh and Richard can DIAF. He knows what the island is but oh look, obviously not tell Jack and the rest ;\

 

[AshburnerX]

...then don't talk about "the most___ in the series" T_T

How the HELL did you manage to jump on so late, though!? Man that must have been confusing and hard as fuck

I say a few episodes before that, but I hadn't started watching it religiously until last season. As for confusion... I read some of the major plot points about it on a wiki a while back. I may not know everything that is going on, but I know enough for what is happening NOW to make sense.

 

[Calleja]

Yeah, I guess the last couple of seasons were enough of a departure from the first couple that it shouldn't be that confusing. You considering watching the first seasons? There are some great eps in those (except for season 4, that one sucked).

 

[Raemon777]

I don't get why everyone hates on season 4. It was by far my favorite, and I thought season 5 mostly sucked.

I think all the episodes are still available on hulu.

 

[AshburnerX]

Yeah, I guess the last couple of seasons were enough of a departure from the first couple that it shouldn't be that confusing. You considering watching the first seasons? There are some great eps in those (except for season 4, that one sucked).

This helped too.

 

[Shakey]

I laughed so hard when the dynamite blew up. That was great.

Hurley is fucking up. He's listening to ghosts instead of Jacob. This should be interesting.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Man, if anyone deserves a happy ending in the end, it's goddamn Hugo. I hope somehow the two realities combine or something and he gets a happy, rich life with Libby. That's one plot point that I honestly thought we'd never see again after she was killed...holy crap, has it been three seasons?

Also, the dynamite bit was awesome. But it was pale in comparison to the BLACK FRIGGING ROCK going boom. Seriously, it's moments like this that make me realize that this really is the final season.

 

[Shakey]

I would not be surprised if everyone except for Jacobs replacement and Smokey are dead at the end.

 

[AshburnerX]

I would not be surprised if everyone expect for Jacobs replacement and Smokey are dead at the end.

Considering how much they build him up, I think it's really gonna be Hurley. He's the one who's grown the most over the series and unlike Jack, he's actually taking charge now. He may not always make the best decisions, but his track record is actually pretty good in retrospect.

 

[Shakey]

I'm still not sold on Hurley. He seems like he's just a puppet doing what everyone else is telling him to do. I have a feeling Jack is going to step up within a few episodes. He seems to be the golden boy of the show.

 

[AshburnerX]

I'm still not sold on Hurley. He seems like he's just a puppet doing what everyone else is telling him to do. I have a feeling Jack is going to step up within a few episodes. He seems to be the golden boy of the show.

But at the same time, that's what makes it seem like he won't be picked. Lost is a pretty subversive show, with lots of stuff happening that you would never expect. I'd say it would be par for the course if Jack got passed over.

 

[Rubicon]

I dunno, detonating the bomb wasn't exactly Jacks finest moment, I mean aside from throwing everyone forward in time it killed Juliet and created the alternate timeline. Ever since Jack brought himself and the others back to the island, he's been on this mission to correct that mistake.

 

[AshburnerX]

I dunno, detonating the bomb wasn't exactly Jacks finest moment, I mean aside from throwing everyone forward in time it killed Juliet and created the alternate timeline. Ever since Jack brought himself and the others back to the island, he's been on this mission to correct that mistake.

By... doing nothing?

 

[Calleja]

But they were already BACK on the island when the bomb detonated...

 

[Fun Size]

I dunno, detonating the bomb wasn't exactly Jacks finest moment, I mean aside from throwing everyone forward in time it killed Juliet and created the alternate timeline. Ever since Jack brought himself and the others back to the island, he's been on this mission to correct that mistake.

Do you believe creating the alternate timeline was a mistake then? I mean, aside from Sun and Jin, and potentially Kate I guess, is anyone really worse off in the alternate timeline? And keep in mind, when I say worse off, I mean when compared to fighting for your life against a smoke monster on an island with almost no hope of another rescue.

 

[Shakey]

Desmond and Charlie seem to think they're worse off. Charlie even knew he was supposed to be dead in the "real" timeline.

 

[AshburnerX]

Desmond spent 3 years in a hole pushing a button for NO REASON THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED. He's now the right hand man of a powerful figure. He is NOT worse off.

 

[MindDetective]

I think it is pretty evident that the button pushing was a safety check to release electromagnetic energy every 108 minutes in order to prevent a catastrophic build-up.

 

[Raemon777]

But that could easily be automated. It's pretty clear to me that they left the button that way specifically as a psychological test, although you'd think they'd have created a failsafe in case the labrat failed the test (or passed, depending on how you look at it).

 

[Shakey]

Desmond spent 3 years in a hole pushing a button for NO REASON THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED. He's now the right hand man of a powerful figure. He is NOT worse off.

He seems to think he is.

 

[MindDetective]

But that could easily be automated. It's pretty clear to me that they left the button that way specifically as a psychological test, although you'd think they'd have created a failsafe in case the labrat failed the test (or passed, depending on how you look at it).

Except all the "notes" from the station observing the button pushers emptied into a big pile in an empty field. Perhaps it could have been automated, but not as easily in the 70s. And it very well may be that the automization could not be put into place before everyone was killed. That doesn't cover the pallet drops, though, or the concern about going outside...

 

[figmentPez]

But that could easily be automated.

Not if part of the metaphysical nature of the anomaly required human interaction.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Desmond spent 3 years in a hole pushing a button for NO REASON THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED. He's now the right hand man of a powerful figure. He is NOT worse off.

island Desmond has true love, alt-universe Desmond never met Penny.

Q.E.D.