This is why MMO's are ruining PC gaming...
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Chibibar
well... Some do, and some don't
some of us manage to break free from WoW's chain. but WoW did have a good story for those who actually read it, but once you hit 80 with one (like me) I didn't have the energy to make another one.
In Asia, game like these are VERY popular because in real life, they can't get many things that they want (Communism and all and some lack of money and power) BUT in a virtual world their "hard work" have reward and that "excites" them in the head (as the article suggest) and thus..... people are hook cause they can get things in the virtual world and not the real world.
In America, some of it holds true but a lot of people are more "free" to do what they want and can get what they want if they work hard enough. Virtual world makes getting "stuff" MUCH MUCH easier. I mean how many minutes/hours/days you need to get X item in MMO? Some of the bigger stuff requires maybe 3-8 hours raid but earlier you need like what? 30 minutes quest? 1 hour quest? it kinda "grows" on you I guess.
What I learn from the article is that the basic human nature to acquire stuff is ALWAYS there. The game developers are just tapping that desire and gain profit from it. It is no different than anything else out there like collection of spoons, Pokemon/Yugioh/Magic cards, eating (over eating), sports nuts, Reality TV etc etc.
K
Kitty Sinatra
He may be proud, but I'm jealous.
fade
Staff member
The problem to me is the "playing beyond fun". It's not a game anymore, even if that doesn't affect your real life. At my worst struggling learning to rollerblade or fence, it was still fun. That's the part that describes my WoW experience. I realized I was playing beyond the fun threshold just for the next reward. Which I barely acknowledged, only to move onto the next.
Except that people have made nicotine free cigarettes. It's just no one wants them, they don't reduce the "fix" one craves that requires nicotine. People that no longer smoke in general see no point in puffing on something if it's not going to give you some physical reaction (whether a high or a craving).
Why do we need to justify it for you? What is that going to accomplish? I can give you a bullet list of every reason I play, going down for a page, and it wouldn't matter to you.
Anyone can smoke something else, my point was that it would be another product... if they start selling pot tomorrow they would be something else. Should have said tobacco companies, that being the proper apelation too.
So i can laugh at your feeble self justifications of course... >
Communities are there for MP games too you know... some of which require little repetitive grinding for loot.Math242 said:
Actualyl i have the same problem with Diablo type games... having to kill the same mob over and over to get good enough loot to finish the game is boring...
You guys do realize (and the article does point this out) that Skinnerian timed-rewards structure underlies most games, right? :suspicious:
Even something like Braid is specifically designed in such a way that players achieve a reward result within a specific time period to induce them to continue playing.
Current MMOs are just much more blatant about it. Not saying it's not a problem, but anyone who thinks this hasn't applied to video games from their inception is fooling themselves.
The discussion on this topic in game design is less, "should games have that kind of reward structure?" and much more, "to what level of gameplay is the dominance of that structure acceptable as a design feature?"
Even something like Braid is specifically designed in such a way that players achieve a reward result within a specific time period to induce them to continue playing.
Current MMOs are just much more blatant about it. Not saying it's not a problem, but anyone who thinks this hasn't applied to video games from their inception is fooling themselves.
The discussion on this topic in game design is less, "should games have that kind of reward structure?" and much more, "to what level of gameplay is the dominance of that structure acceptable as a design feature?"
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Chibibar
Bingo. that is what I was trying to say, but you are much better than me
fade: while you may think it is "mind numbing" boring, there are tons of people who love it for their reasons. I will say this. Not all games have same level of interest for everyone.
And the more they use it the more boring it is...
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Chibibar
And the more they use it the more boring it is...[/QUOTE]
It is all matter of perspective.
Do you like stories? the reward could be the next story plot (popular in Japanese game and thus more stories and less fighting)
Do you want your next power? - this reward is use a lot cause some "cool" power people can't wait to use. Usually given via level or experience (how far are you in the game)
Of course you have your standard reward item - the next weapon that will make your "battle" easier (so you think) It is interesting when you look back on the games you play, you might get more "powerful" in terms of level, power, and items, but so does your encounter. They kinda scale up with you so are "technically" fighting the same mob multiply the level you are with a different skin and power
City of Heroes tweak this a bit by allowing you to take on more foes and (common one) and mow them down but the bosses kinda scale with you in terms of powers and toughness (to provide challenges)And the most popular is purchasing item/spells/power - you need to accumulate whatever wealth you need or xp to buy the next "shiny" power. Of course the enticing part is the next power is "better" than your old power/item/spells etc. I kinda like CoX version since your original power is still as good you just get more supplement powers, but in most games (like FF series) the original power is not as good anymore and you need the I II III IV....X power to really be effective.
All above are standard timed reward, but how it is presented can be fun and not boring (but again, not all games cater to everyone)
Think of a table top gaming using time reward structure. It would be boring to most people if you stay 1st level forever using that starter weapon/power/spells. The GM will try to entice you with treasure (to buy more weapon/power/spells), stories (hopefully good one) and encounter to keep your interest. If you are bored, then you don't play with that group anymore. How is that differ? Do you gain any "real life" stuff?
Games are entertainment and they are design to keep you entertain. When people are no longer entertain, they will find something else to entertain them. Gaming companies are always going to try some new stuff (gameplay) but still stick to same formula in order to keep players coming back for more.
I think WoW (being the "most" successfully MMORPG) entice people with different element of the formula. They have stories and keep making more (expansion modules and quests) and yet retain the most basic enticement. The carrot of getting the next shiny weapon. I know how that feels. I know I'm being "lead" like a rat in a maze, but I am always excited to get that next power or reach that next level regardless what game I'm playing.
Look at Team Fortress. There are no "level" per se, but their carrots are hats (random drop) new weapons (Demo vs Soldier story) and of course new map. How long that game been out? how many people are still playing that?
It is all the same formula, just presented differently.
ITT computer game success is killing the industry.
More like how repetitive grinding is ruining it regardless of it's success.
See for me if the gameplay in between is boring the good reward doesn't make it any better, even if i plough through it because i want to see the story... that's the thing, that type of reward system is all about not enjoying the parts in between the rewards, if you did it wouldn't really matter if you got the reward or not, it would just be a nice bonus.
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Chibibar
again, that is just what YOU feel about a certain game. Dave's comment is a perfect example. I love mining in EVE. I love building stuff. To me, that is a lot of fun. To many people who actually enjoy more in terms of fighting, ratting or exploring would totally consider mining in EVE boring and wouldn't touch it, but there are players who are more than happy to fill up that need and mine ALL DAY, day in and day out for years gathering minerals.
look at the popular simple game like Bejeweled Blitz. It is a one minute game that scores reset once a week. You have one minute to score as much as possible and all you do is match 3 or more jewels, but it is selling in the millions of copy. You may think it is boring, but other don't.
again, it doesn't make you wrong or right. I like certain things doesn't make me right or wrong. We like different things but the gaming company is trying to incorporate as many element to capture as many people as possible to play their stuff. Simple game like bejeweled capture single general population player by the storm. WoW capture general public by the millions, but I know friends who believe WoW IS boring from level 1 to 80 (they tried it and hate it), but WoW formula is working if they are the highest MMORPG subscription in the U.S. (not sure of Asia since there are tons of grind fest MMORPG)
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Chibibar
you don't think it is boring, but other think they are like you think some MMORPG are boring. It all comes down to taste, but in this OP/article. It comes down to self control. There are people around the world that shouldn't have access to games like that cause they have no self control. What we have so far?Why would i think Bejeweled is boring?! It's a puzzle game, you enjoy it for the mental challenge...
As for sales, i think it was JCM that liked to bring up Britney Spears when it comes to that...
People killing other people for virtual stuff? (Korean lately)
a baby died of malnutrition due to MMORPG cause parents play more than taking care of baby? it happen
Kids killing themselves when their character died. Yea happen here too (U.S.)
People are so addicted that they lose their family, their house, and their lives? yup.. happen too
Who's fault is it?
That is an arguement of personal quality, not enjoyment. I hate Spears music, but I am a person that prefers Alice In Chains or Disturbed then the latest pop sensation.As for sales, i think it was JCM that liked to bring up Britney Spears when it comes to that...
Chibibar is arguing that different people enjoy different things, and while Britney Spears is not exactly Beethoven, people liked her music enough to buy it, and that means they probably enjoyed it. People that buy WoW, or EvE, or MW2, or even Bejeweled, do it because they enjoy those games. The numbers are just a way to understand how many people enjoy that type of game over those other people.
You can "rage" as much as you want about popular items of pop culture, but it does not make the people that enjoy such things enjoy them any less.
fade
Staff member
Chibi, I never said people couldn't find different things enjoyable. If you like it, by all means do it. But that also doesn't change the oddness of playing beyond the fun threshold, which I think a lot of WoW players do, evidenced by the many posts of that nature here and at other forums I frequent, and by the constant mantra "it gets better at the end".
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Chibibar
well.. again.. the forum usually contain a small fraction of people. Unless over 10 million subscriber post on the forum.. heck... a million would be good stats, but usually they are less (I don't have hard numbers) Like any entertainment, you have a choice to subscribe/play or not to play. No one if forcing you to play (well.... they can "force" you to raid
like my guild which cause me to quit but that is a different story) it is matter of choice. WoW subsciption continue to grow for some reason. The article proves that the method works and people still play.The "fun" threshold is still a personal level. I found it fun from level 1 to 80 with my pally, but I don't find end game as much fun. I'm one of the few. Some players believe end game is where it at and it is fun for them.
And then you have people like me that find both enjoyable.
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Chibibar
And then you have people like me that find both enjoyable.[/QUOTE]
exactly
It is kinda hard to argue what is consider fun, since many people have different level of they consider fun, what we can argue about (I guess we could argue about anything) is using the carrot method "ethical"? well...... company is out to make money. Blizzard bottom line is making money. If they can make an awesome game that continue to sell after 10 years (Starcraft anyone?) that is even better. The formula works and company will continue to use it, but I think the important thing is that left to parents to help teach their kids of self control.Yes this is a new world where you can get information at your fingertip (right or wrong info regardless, with internet and phone, you learn stuff REAL fast real quick) it seems that kids also want "instant gratification" which I hope my kids won't pick that up.
I think that is kill games. I use to remember some hard games that was purely awesome, but now-a-days the game play is much easier or dumb down
fade
Staff member
Again, I don't think I ever disagreed with that. And I never said that the posts I read were a representative sample (though I can say that the "it gets fun at the end" thing I've encountered a huge number of times). I don't have percentages or stats, but I've seen it enough times to agree with the article writer who apparently has seen it a good number of times, too.
That is an arguement of personal quality, not enjoyment. I hate Spears music, but I am a person that prefers Alice In Chains or Disturbed then the latest pop sensation.As for sales, i think it was JCM that liked to bring up Britney Spears when it comes to that...
Chibibar is arguing that different people enjoy different things, and while Britney Spears is not exactly Beethoven, people liked her music enough to buy it, and that means they probably enjoyed it. People that buy WoW, or EvE, or MW2, or even Bejeweled, do it because they enjoy those games. The numbers are just a way to understand how many people enjoy that type of game over those other people.
You can "rage" as much as you want about popular items of pop culture, but it does not make the people that enjoy such things enjoy them any less.[/QUOTE]
Except that they don't enjoy it, they enjoy the timed rewards, which is why it's BS... unless people actually enjoy doing repetitive tasks over and over, then nuking it from orbit is the only option.
And seriously, comparing puzzle games to "kill x number of y over and over" is rather ridiculous. In one i'm challenging my mind while in the other i'm basically working towards a paycheck... sure, playing Bejeweled all day gets boring eventually, but so does everything at some point.
As for enjoying Britney Spears, i know a lot of people who listened to a local style of music in highschool that once they actually didn't need to fit in anymore as they belonged now they all started realising how much that music sucked... or so they claimed... so excise me if i'm doubtful about people actually enjoying the music instead of just following their herd instinct.
Exactly, that's the problem with the rat maze, you do it because of the cheese at the end, and frankly that's too much like work for me.
DoW2's Last Stand mode had the right idea... your hero doesn't get better stats as he levels up, but he gets more options in armament and skills...
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Chibibar
well... I believe three are people who actually enjoy doing repetitive stuff (game, life, anything really) I remember my philosophy prof tells me there are two types of people, leaders and sheep. (well generalizing of course) The leaders love to innovate, do something new, and well.. lead.
The sheep, they just follow the crowd and repeat. I do have co worker who are just happy to literally "grind" the same stuff all day long and actually happy about it. They don't like change cause it mess up their pattern.
The sheep, they just follow the crowd and repeat. I do have co worker who are just happy to literally "grind" the same stuff all day long and actually happy about it. They don't like change cause it mess up their pattern.
Oh, so you speak for millions of people now? People do enjoy repetitive tasks, otherwise things like Bejeweled wouldn't exist. You call Bejeweled a "puzzle" game, but the nature of that puzzle game is to shift little colored shapes over and over and over and over again add infinitium with the only real strategy to be anticipating combos. I get the same stimulation out of healing Morrowgar on ICC25 man that I do playing Bejeweled, and yes, I play Bejeweled constantly.
Everything CAN get boring after awhile, but it does not always mean it will. There is not absolutism in this Liam, but your personal opinion on what "should" become boring.
That is called changing tastes.
I used to listen to Metallica and Blink 182. I now only semi-enjoy Metallica music and turn Blink 182 off when I hear it. Does this mean I didn't enjoy the music in high school? Not at all, I just realized later that I didn't like the music once I started hearing things from Disturbed, Motorhead, etc... Right now I listen every day to The Fame from Lady GaGa, and I enjoy it, but I know sooner or later as I age my taste is going to shift, right now I am really digging a band called Phoenix.
Does this mean somehow I didn't enjoy Blink 182 back then? No, I did, but after awhile when the interest faded, I moved on. I can't bring myself to play the original Mortal Kombat in this day and age, because I am not interested in fighting games like I was, but that does not mean I actually "hated" it when I played it as a kid, and just now realize I hated it.
Everyone loves to use the "herd" mentality as some wacky excuse to why they liked something that, now that they are older, they feel "embarrassed" having enjoyed. I don't buy that. You didn't put Britney Spears on your walkman, or go to her concert all alone, because you totally thought she sucked but wanted people to like you. If you did you seriously have problems that extend beyond gaming, music, or anything else.
Not everyone does it for the cheese. Some of us do it for the maze. The cheese is just the cherry on top.
In the end though, I don't plan to change your mind. You can "rage" about how people playing a game are not actually enjoying them, but in the end I will still play and enjoy myself, as will my friends. On the day I don't enjoy the game, I will quit. You and your opinion are not really going to change that any better then I can convince you to see logic and reasoning.
So good luck with that.
And a shooter is all about clicking and using the directional buttons, and any sport is all about moving your limbs around... if you over generalize like that everything is about doing certain actions over and over.
Sure, Bejeweled is not that much more complex, but it offers something extra from the "kill X of Y's by hitting them with a sword in the exact same way so you eventually get a reward" thing MMO's have going if only in the fact that it requires your brain to make associations that require a level of sentience.
And i'm not the one calling it a puzzle game, it's what Bejeweled is, look it up.
Are you actually implying that there are humans that wouldn't eventually get bored with doing the same thing over and over unless it was part of an addiction?! Even MMO's offer some variation in what activities you are engaged in for that very reason.
If you do it enough with no variation in between everything eventually get's boring for everyone because we're not robots.
Sure, people have different thresholds, but that's different. So i think you should change "should" there with "when"...
You obviously never heard of "manele"... Britney Spears is nothing compared to them...
But the guys i'm talking about where never that into it, they listened to the music because their friends did, and just dismissed people that said it sucked by saying exactly that, that they listened to it because others did and it's not that bad. That's actually why i remember when they stopped, because i eye-rolled big time when it happened because they dismissed me when i argued it sucked without offering any counterpoints about why it didn't.
And wouldn't using "herd mentality" as an excuse just make them look worse?!
And i still enjoy Blink 182 because i never saw them for something they weren't...
You do realise that the whole point of the Skinner Box stuff is that you start "enjoying" the activity by association, right?!
Ask yourself, would you really enjoy the game less if someone took out the the grinding? It's not like the social aspect of a MMO would go away if you didn't need to farm for 10 hours to get some item that you need to be able to play with your friends in that raid that they want to do?!
To make it more clear, the problem comes from the parts that are designed as time sinks to artificially spend more time playing the game, which isn't a problem for MMO's exclusively (Assassins Creed had you walk through the same map over and over again to get to another town without which - and with waypoints instead - the game would probably be a few hours shorter).
Read the part about the chests in the cracked article... you actually telling me that clicking on chests over and over is enjoyable?! There are better ways to appeal to one's competitive impulses IMO.
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Chibibar
Li3n: as hard is it to believe there are people who DO enjoy it. I have a friend for a long time just love to gather materials (and HORDE THEM) in UO FOR FIVE YEARS. Every day he logs in, mine them, and store in a bag (after smelting into ingot) he never sold a single ingot to any players. Just horde them. After we quit (we were in a guild together), there was like over 100,000 ingots of each type that we just gave away.
Day in, day out, there are people who are comfortable and some actually enjoy the repetitive thing. You don't, you think that others' don't, but you will be surprise how many people actually DO.
edit: "Crack in a chest" is the same like gambling. Some people (actual cases somewhere) actually just enjoy the ART of gambling. pulling slots day in and day out. Yea.. people like that do exist. (to me pulling slots is like opening chest day in and day out same thing over and over again..... some find that FUN!)
Day in, day out, there are people who are comfortable and some actually enjoy the repetitive thing. You don't, you think that others' don't, but you will be surprise how many people actually DO.
edit: "Crack in a chest" is the same like gambling. Some people (actual cases somewhere) actually just enjoy the ART of gambling. pulling slots day in and day out. Yea.. people like that do exist. (to me pulling slots is like opening chest day in and day out same thing over and over again..... some find that FUN!)
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Chibibar
Hehe... I love mining too. I never sold any of my minerals either and don't mine mining for good mint (blah.. I tried) there are times I just mine hours upon hours just clicking and eating up another asteroid. I find NPC pirate annoying to interrupt my mining operation in high sec
I am altering my first comment, as it was unfair of me, so I apologize in that regard. At least it has remained civil and should remain as such.
You see the game as nothing but "guy hits thing, thing dies." and that is far from the game, and has been for a long time, regardless if the game is WoW, EvE, EQ2, or even AION. You are the one here generalizing. Maybe the lower levels are closer to that, but that is why you should pay attention to story and quests. Sometimes those won't catch you, like Fade, and that is fair, that is why Fade does not play. Others though, it does, which is why I enjoy leveling characters and switching up zones, quests, and dungeons.
If anything, you are the one perpetuating a herd mentality, by making people feel embarrassed for what they enjoy that they have to hide it, rather then being honest that at one time they liked it. "I was just listening to everyone else, they MADE me tap my foot to "Hit me, Baby!"
I will give you one thing. There are people out there that are rats stuck in a box that push the button for a reward, I even said there was a fair comparison. The issue is that we are humans have the choice to decide what we do, and do not, find enjoyable. The game is not putting us inside a skinner box, but some people may allow the game to become a personal skinner box to them. That can happen whether it was an MMO or a guy collecting nothing but Simpsons figurines. Anything can become an unhealthy obsession.
Exactly, so what makes moving little boxes around more stimulating them healing 25 people in a raid? Nothing. That is your issue.
What does it offer extra? A high score? I think your issue here is that you are making a flawed parallel. You blame me of "generalizing" games when you obviously are "generalizing" the MMO as nothing but a mind-numbing experience. You don't stand there and hit a button and the something dies, though that is possible in certain situations. When you raid, you have to be on your game with everything from rotations, to movement, to cooldown and GCD management. When you PVP you have to think on your toes, utilize utility abilities to not get caught offguard by the enemy. Even ignoring that, and going out into the world, you can manage your gold supply and work on the AH, buying out undercutters to make profit on materials, etc... All of which I enjoy by doing them, regardless if the shiny purple drops. I have openly passed on loot simply because I found others may get more use out of upgrades then me, because the loot is irrelevant.
You see the game as nothing but "guy hits thing, thing dies." and that is far from the game, and has been for a long time, regardless if the game is WoW, EvE, EQ2, or even AION. You are the one here generalizing. Maybe the lower levels are closer to that, but that is why you should pay attention to story and quests. Sometimes those won't catch you, like Fade, and that is fair, that is why Fade does not play. Others though, it does, which is why I enjoy leveling characters and switching up zones, quests, and dungeons.
I know it's a puzzle game, but I don't really find it much of a "puzzle". It's moving blocks, anticipating combos, and trying to get multipliers. It has a similar design to what I do healing in WoW, anticipation, reflex, and preparation. I love both games, but I am one that sees the parallels rather then discrediting based on genres.
I was not speaking of it on those terms. It is obvious people get bored sooner or later with something. That is a given. However, you are of the opinion we "should" be bored now, when that is not the case. You are applying personal standards that have no basis on us. We will get bored when we get bored, you have no ability to decide when we do. Try again.
So they were so not into the music that they actually "defended" it when you said it sucked? Sorry, but that should tell you they WERE into it. When they started liking other music, the taste changed and now they look back and are embarrassed to talk about the fact they liked it. Why? Because you and possible others are perpetuating the idea that they should be embarrassed for it, since to you, the music "sucked" so much you had to eye-roll them for it.
If anything, you are the one perpetuating a herd mentality, by making people feel embarrassed for what they enjoy that they have to hide it, rather then being honest that at one time they liked it. "I was just listening to everyone else, they MADE me tap my foot to "Hit me, Baby!"
The skinner box is the idea that in order to get reward, I hit button, and if I don't hit button, I don't get reward, or I get punished, thus training me to hit the button. Your issue is that I don't play for the reward, I play to press the button, because I like pressing the button. We are not rats looking for cheese, we are humans with ideals, perceptions, and sentient thoughts that make our own choices.
This is not about enjoying the game "more" if they took away the grind. That is not the arguement. The arguement is whether I enjoy the game at all. You are implying I shouldn't enjoy the game because it has a grind and emulates the idea of a Skinner Box, I am saying you don't make the choice for me, sometimes pushing the button can be just as nice and the pellets coming out of the hole in the wall. You don't like to believe that, and I am calling out the fact such an outlook is foolish.
The nature of gaming is the artificial timesink. That is nothing new. You can add or take away things to lengthen or speed up the game, but that does not stop the whole thing by nature of being a timesink. I remember when Oblivion was released, many people complained about "instant map travel" because it removed the epic feeling of the world, even though the nature of running around in all those woods was nothing but a time sink. Sometimes people like the journey, not the destination, and other times its the opposite.
I don't care for chests, but I do enjoy going out on my drake and collecting Saronite for an hour to sell on the AH. If I didn't enjoy it (and sometimes I am not in the mood for it) I just do something else.
I will give you one thing. There are people out there that are rats stuck in a box that push the button for a reward, I even said there was a fair comparison. The issue is that we are humans have the choice to decide what we do, and do not, find enjoyable. The game is not putting us inside a skinner box, but some people may allow the game to become a personal skinner box to them. That can happen whether it was an MMO or a guy collecting nothing but Simpsons figurines. Anything can become an unhealthy obsession.
Ok man, chillax, i don't think everything you do in a MMO is boring, i just don't like what you have to do to get to the good parts...
But that's not what i'm talking about, of course playing with other people isn't repetitive because other people are not robots...
See, you're under the impression that because i don't like MMO's because of the grind they require that i think everything in them is bad...
You do realise that those are rewards too, right?! "I got a better price" or "I made something"! Of course the system in place could be fun or boring, i'm guessing with an Action House and plenty of players around you don't have to wait around for 2 hours to sell something like you did in Lineage 2 (at least for the pirated servers, i stopped playing long before my friends started playing on official servers).
See, even you aren't defending farming for hours on your own...
Except that i didn't say anything, by 12th grade i was already jaded about it... the eye rolling was all internal...
And teh music sucks, trust me... it's like someone took turkish and gypsy traditional music and took out everything that made it distinct and then added retarded lyrics...
---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------
But of course the shiny explosions, scores and other stuff is a carrot too, while the game would be enjoyable even without them if you like using your brain n the way the game requires (same as liking crossword puzzles).
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Chibibar
but that is the thing. What you consider "boring part" some people think that is the highlight of the game. What you consider "the good part" (i.e. raids) to ME is consider WORST part of the game
it is all matter of perspective.As for Britney Spears - I still like her old stuff. I have them on CD. I bought her old CD (recently cause I lost my old stuff) her new stuff.... not so much. It is not because of the "crowd" heck, most people think I'm weird for liking Britney at my age, but I like what I like and I spend MY money how I see fit. Yes, I recently bought Hanna Montana Movie CD cause I watch the movie (via cable cause I didn't think it was worth going to the theater) and I like it. My wife and I like some of the songs and we bought the CD.
Of course many of my friends don't like the movie at all much less Hanna Montana.
And I am saying that what you call the "good parts" are not always going to be the only good parts. Some of us LIKE what we have to do to get to the points you call the good parts, they are just all "good parts". I am fighting for the right for myself and others to enjoy what we do, rather then be implicated as nothing but rats locked in a box. This goes for games, movies, and anything else that is entertainment (as long as it does not involve hurting anything). I don't care what your opinion of MMOs are, but I want you to respect my right to enjoy something you may find unenjoyable.
You just said you argued with them about it causing them to defend the music. Now you are saying you never said anything? I am getting mixed signals here.
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