Search forums

Forums

Export thread

This is why MMO's are ruining PC gaming...

Mar 9, 2010#1

@Li3n

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

That's right, you're all rats in a maze...

But now seriously, how does it not get boring fast?!

Mar 9, 2010#2

R

Raemon777

I generally agree with this.

I haven't played WoW in a year or so - I had too much stuff to do, didn't have time, and I had just hit level 80 which gave a brief sense of "final accomplishment" before moving on to the endgame grind. What really frustrates me is that I HAVE invested enough in the world that I would like to see the story through to the end. I would like to kill the Lich King, but I don't have time to devote to acquiring all the gear and skill I'd need to be able to do it. To some extent I think that's okay - I thinking beating a game should be an accomplishment and if it was made easy enough that I could log on and do it right now it wouldn't really be worth it. Still, frustrating.

In other news, it WOULD be really cool if every 1,000 customers I served at the grocery store, a giant beam of light shot up from my crotch.

Mar 9, 2010#3

fade

Yep, that pretty much sums up my feelings about WoW. I had to try again last week just to be sure, but that's it.

Mar 9, 2010#4

bhamv3

I now feel awfully lucky that I never got into MMOs...

Mar 9, 2010#5

Silver Jelly

I love that, if a game is difficult, it makes me get bored and go do other stuff... But, if it's too easy, it makes me get bored and go do other stuff. I'm immune, baby!

Mar 9, 2010#6

Espy

That's why the highest court in South Korea ruled that virtual goods are to be legally treated the same as real goods. And virtual goods are now a $5 billion industry worldwide.

There's nothing crazy about it. After all, people pay thousands of dollars for diamonds, even though diamonds do nothing but look pretty. A video game suit of armor looks pretty and protects you from video game orcs.

lol. Nice.

Mar 9, 2010#7

ScytheRexx

Not sure how this is "ruining PC gaming", seems more like it's ruining lives of the weak willed. It's actually one of the only genres keeping PC gaming alive.

Mar 9, 2010#8

MindDetective

Psychologists have knowledge and knowledge is power. Fear the tools they develop falling into the wrong hands.

Mar 9, 2010#9

Chazwozel

ScytheRexx said:
Not sure how this is "ruining PC gaming", seems more like it's ruining lives of the weak willed. It's actually one of the only genres keeping PC gaming alive.

Buddy, I like you and all, but you're being totally biased if you don't think WoW operates on the basis of 'carrot on a stick' for the majority of its player base.

Mar 9, 2010#10

ScytheRexx

You jump to conclusions. I never said anything about it not using those tactics or even trying to deny them, actually I agree with the article that weak willed people are going to use it as a form of escapism because they love the carrot, they want that carrot and that flashy light. I even use it as a sort of escapism, I just know it rather then let it control me, because I play for different reasons then to feel "accomplished".

I was pointing out the idea that "MMO's are ruining PC gaming" to be a bit misleading. PC gaming in general has, and continues, to go down the shitter. MMOs and a few good companies are the only thing keeping it a very viable industry. It should have said "This is why MMO's can ruin your life..."

Mar 9, 2010#11

Chazwozel

ScytheRexx said:
You jump to conclusions. I never said anything about it not using those tactics or even trying to deny them, actually I agree with the article that weak willed people are going to use it as a form of escapism because they love the carrot, they want that carrot and that flashy light. I even use it as a sort of escapism, I just know it rather then let it control me, because I play for different reasons then to feel "accomplished".

I was pointing out the idea that "MMO's are ruining PC gaming" to be a bit misleading. PC gaming in general has, and continues, to go down the shitter. MMOs and a few good companies are the only thing keeping it a very viable industry. It should have said "This is why MMO's can ruin your life..."

The thread title is misleading, since the article doesn't specifically focus on MMO's. I wouldn't say MMO addiction is only for the weak willed though. I mean hypothetically speaking, would it be hard for you, right at this very moment to delete all your WoW characters? Be honest now.

Mar 9, 2010#12

fade

I don't consider myself weak-willed, but I did realize the same thing this article's author did--that I was only playing to get that next "thing" whatever it was. The author never says that's a bad thing to do. On the contrary, the author's point is that games like WoW leverage that normal reaction to the extreme, dedicating tons of research to doing so. I'm not sure I know of any other reason to play games other than some accomplishment or reward. I don't think that makes players weak-willed. But a lot of wow players have had that "Holy crap, what am i doing this for?" reaction. I suspect you might say the social aspect of WoW is the draw, but I must say, unless you're at 80, I've found it to be a solo game. The only MM aspect before endgame is general chat.

Mar 9, 2010#13

@Li3n

Because cocaine addict stop smoking pot, that's why...

I mean hypothetically speaking, would it be hard for you, right at this very moment to delete all your WoW characters? Be honest now.

Fucking impossible... my 10 day trial character is long gone...

Mar 9, 2010#14

ScytheRexx

Asking if I would delete my characters is the same as asking if I would throw out all my furniture, my television, burn my hammock in the backyard and pop my soccer ball with a large nail this very instant. Can I do it? Yes. Do I want to do it or is it really going to make my life better? Not really. It is not weak willed to have things you enjoy, it is weak willed to allow those things to control your life. I have nothing but respect for those that quit MMOs, or those that never start them, because they show that they are not getting stuck in a treadmill they don't enjoy. Enjoyment is the key. Play a game to enjoy, don't play it to accomplish, this is not the Super Bowl, this is flag football, and even THAT is a stretch.

If deleting my characters would add anything to my life, I would delete them in a heartbeat, but I am not one that allows it to "take" from my life in the first place. I know my little pixel people are just that, pixels, and someday they will be gone when the WoW servers go "So long and thanks for all the bytes."

Truth be told though, I don't have a very addictive personality. I have never smoked (anything, cigs, pot, whatever you can smoke I have never touched), I dislike alcohol and just drink soda or water when I go out with friends, and when I go to Vegas for NAB every year, my gambling totals $1 in a slot machine at the airport, and that's just so I can say I gambled when I get home. I know that is hard for people to see when I like to talk about WoW based information a lot of the time, but hey, one talks about what he knows, and I know a lot about WarCraft.

Mar 9, 2010#15

@Li3n

Did the "Don't feed the Chaz!" sign fall off again?

Mar 9, 2010#16

Chazwozel

@Li3n said:
Did the "Don't feed the Chaz!" sign fall off again?

You're the only one trying to feed a flame fest here, bud.

---------- Post added at 01:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

ScytheRexx said:
Asking if I would delete my characters is the same as asking if I would throw out all my furniture, my television, burn my hammock in the backyard and pop my soccer ball with a large nail this very instant. Can I do it? Yes. Do I want to do it or is it really going to make my life better? Not really. It is not weak willed to have things you enjoy, it is weak willed to allow those things to control your life. I have nothing but respect for those that quit MMOs, or those that never start them, because they show that they are not getting stuck in a treadmill they don't enjoy. Enjoyment is the key. Play a game to enjoy, don't play it to accomplish, this is not the Super Bowl, this is flag football, and even THAT is a stretch.

If deleting my characters would add anything to my life, I would delete them in a heartbeat, but I am not one that allows it to "take" from my life in the first place. I know my little pixel people are just that, pixels, and someday they will be gone when the WoW servers go "So long and thanks for all the bytes."

Truth be told though, I don't have a very addictive personality. I have never smoked (anything, cigs, pot, whatever you can smoke I have never touched), I dislike alcohol and just drink soda or water when I go out with friends, and when I go to Vegas for NAB every year, my gambling totals $1 in a slot machine at the airport, and that's just so I can say I gambled when I get home. I know that is hard for people to see when I like to talk about WoW based information a lot of the time, but hey, one talks about what he knows, and I know a lot about WarCraft.

I just asked a hypothetical question, no need to get defensive.

Mar 9, 2010#17

@Li3n

Chazwozel;351568][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
Did the "Don't feed the Chaz!" sign fall off again?

You're the only one trying to feed a flame fest here, bud.[/QUOTE]

I'm not your bud, fella'.

And who said anything about a flame fest... you're just being yourself.

Mar 9, 2010#18

Chazwozel

@Li3n;351577][QUOTE=Chazwozel;351568][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
Did the "Don't feed the Chaz!" sign fall off again?

You're the only one trying to feed a flame fest here, bud.[/QUOTE]

I'm not your bud, fella'.

And who said anything about a flame fest... you're just being yourself.[/QUOTE]

My first ignore ever. You should be proud.

Mar 9, 2010#19

ScytheRexx

Chazwozel said:
I just asked a hypothetical question, no need to get defensive.

Ah it was more just explaining myself in this instance. "Would you delete them this instant" is a loaded question, I say "Yes" and someone may think I am in denial, I say "No" and someone will just say I just admitted I am addicted. Going back to the other post, and to give a little idea of my thought process.

Friend "Dude, your furniture is tacky as hell and you have been buying it for five years. I can't believe you put up with it."
Me "Dude, it's just furniture, and I like the feel of the cushions. It's not a big deal"
Friend "I think you like this furniture to much. Would you throw out all your furniture this instant? Be honest"
Me "Why would I throw out my furniture when I like it?"

It's one of those "prove me wrong" questions that has no right answer in the mind of the questioner. I just wanted to make that clear.

Mar 9, 2010#20

Necronic

The only real question of importance (and it is also subjective) is whether the carrot presented in the game is valued at a higher level than carrots in the real world that have general societal value. Like, letting your child wtrve to death so you can raid (extreme example) or becoming a socially incompetent fucktard who has no skills of value outside of the game who lives with their parents. I ultimately believe that thisis dependan on the individual more than the game, but.....empirically (and bbased on my concepts of societal value) I have seen a higher occurance of this in WoW than other games (not all though)

Mar 9, 2010#21

ScytheRexx

Necronic said:
I have seen a higher occurance of this in WoW than other games (not all though)

I think this is mostly due to the fact that WoW is the first "mainstream" MMO. I have seen people fall into the same pits listed in the article since I played Ultima and EverQuest, but the genre as a whole was so small that it never got the attention like this article (Dare I say, most MMO players back then were stereotyped as basement dwelling outcasts anyways). WoW was the first western breakout with the mainstream, and thus is gathering more of the people that probably would have not considered an MMO as a form of unhealthy escapism. That is one of the problems with being popular.

Mar 9, 2010#22

Baerdog

I think that's a very valid point. WoW gets a lot of attention by virtue of the fact that it's got such a huge amount of people playing it.

Mar 9, 2010#23

@Li3n

Guy, the cracked article has a link to a guy's story about being addicted to Everquest long before WoW... and by addicted i mean he chose a level up over sex...

Chazwozel;351578][QUOTE=@Li3n;351577][QUOTE=Chazwozel;351568][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
Did the "Don't feed the Chaz!" sign fall off again?

Mar 9, 2010#24

ThatNickGuy

Yeah, althought it focused on MMO's, the idea behind a video game is to give a system of "fake" rewards. Beating a game is accomplishment, especially if you struggled with those last few levels or that final boss. Hell, I remember the first time I beat Final Fantasy I or II (well, IV, but it was II to me at the time): I heard that lightning crash that I'd beaten the boss, jumped off the couch and started celebrating.

But it's really all about that false reward or that false sense of accomplishment. Most often, it's becoming more powerful with a power-up or maybe it's continuing on the story (or both), or maybe it's hearing that "ding!" and seeing an Achievement trophy pop up in the top right hand corner. Hell, when I was playing Arkham Asylum and got the "Party Pooper" trophy? I had to pause the game, I was laughing so hard.

Personally, I'm more on the side of people like Yahtzee, who see video games as potential to tell a great story. It's like another medium, just like movies, books, television shows, etc. But there's so many (if not most) games are so derivative, terribly written, terribly acted, etc, that it's hard to see that games could be good on that level. I think it's why I'm not a fan of mindless shooters. I like to have a story that pulls me in and motivates me to continue playing. My best example for this is the Final Fantasy games. God, there were so many sleepless nights just building my team up so I could be powerful enough to lay siege to a major dungeon or castle. But more recently, Infamous had a lot of interesting story-related missions that pulled me in. Although it was pretty cliche, I was pulled into Prototype, as well. Heavy Rain is definitely the best example I think of, currently, that puts the story first.

Hm. Lost my original argument here, somewhere. I guess my point is that, speaking as someone who has an addictive personality when it comes to video games, I can definitely agree with a lot of this article. It'd be much healthier for me to, say, go for a run, do yoga, do schoolwork or even do some writing of my own.

But then, I'd never find out how Ratchet rescues Clank.

Mar 9, 2010#25

fade

ThatNickGuy said:
Y
But then, I'd never find out how Ratchet rescues Clank.

Wikipedia.

Mar 9, 2010#26

Necronic

FAir enough scythe. (on the volume comment, wholeheartedly disagree with you on stories. Books are 1000 times better.)

Another thought I had about the carrot has to do with it's complexity. Think of a simple pleasure, like drugs, or pizza, or laughing at Monty python, vs complex easures like finishing college, raising a child, or getting a program to compile. Both simple and complex carrots have their value, bu people that subsist only on simple pleasures are barely human in my eyes.

Mar 9, 2010#27

sixpackshaker

People that are into escapism is going to do anything to get their minds off their problems/life. The person that plays WoW 4 hours a night is not different than the person that; reads trashy novels, plays wii/ps3/xbox, that watches TV, talks on HAM radio, listens to Short Wave/FM/AM talk radio/top40...for 4 hours a night. Wasting time is wasting time, just because one is new does not make it worse than all the others that went before.

Mar 9, 2010#28

Chibibar

getting the "next carrot" is not a new study. This has been use in real life for a long long long long long time. Boss use this incentive to get people to work harder in promise of better position later etc etc.

Video game is EASIER to dangle that carrot since you just have to code it. It is like Sims in REAL life. My wife's carrot is that next new shiny DVD/Blu-Ray (she watch them all multiple time) and the next new TV. What does it take to get the next one? get a good paying job.

There are people who are weak willed that will fall into traps. Gambling is a good one. the carrot? wining a TON of money.

Mar 9, 2010#29

ScytheRexx

The thing is that article is not really talking about MMOs being more of a form of unhealthy escapism, but pointing out that developers openly look into ways to hook people to play certain games for longer. In the case of most online services, this means more money in the long run for the company.

In a way, it is reminicint of the cigerette companies. Yes, they put warning on the label and talk about all the unhealthy qualities, but in the end they still are putting stuff in the cigerettes to get you to smoke more, because they rely on you constantly buying them.

I think in a way that is a fair point, but the arguement does not go without it's flaws. While I know game developers want our money because that kind of keeps them making games, I do think they make the experience mostly to be enjoyable rather then addictive. I don't think WoW is the love child of a psychologist and Scrooge McDuck, but something made by gamers to experience things they, themselves, would enjoy. Yes, those often involve a carrot-on-a-stick type of experience, but that is part of the charm of the MMO, you know years down the line you will never "beat" it, you will never have the princess at the end of the castle that leads to the ending screen.

I don't think the carrot-on-a-stick type of design itself is bad, but that it can lead to people forgetting that the virtual carrot is not the shining star of ones life. I am on the fence over whether such should even be Blizzard's problem. I don't think of them as a cigarette company, but I don't think of them as a charity either.

Mar 9, 2010#30

MindDetective

It occurs to me that it's not just carrot and stick psychology, at least not always. There is also video games as art and as story. I'm playing through Mass Effect 2 (a second time) because the story is compelling enough for me to want to follow along.

Mar 9, 2010#31

fade

Yeah, but that's consumed rather rapidly in WoW. Especially after the first couple of characters. And the story development is often punctuated by side quests which have cover stories that barely mask the "collect x of y by killing z" nature of the quest. After a point, players just click "accept" and read the goals. In the latest patch, you have to do even less because the map now shows you exactly where to go. The art can be good. That's actually what brought me back the first time. I remembered the nice landscapes, and the prettiness of riding up to a new town. But when it's not new, it's not new.

Mar 9, 2010#32

Chibibar

fade said:
Yeah, but that's consumed rather rapidly in WoW. Especially after the first couple of characters. And the story development is often punctuated by side quests which have cover stories that barely mask the "collect x of y by killing z" nature of the quest. After a point, players just click "accept" and read the goals. In the latest patch, you have to do even less because the map now shows you exactly where to go. The art can be good. That's actually what brought me back the first time. I remembered the nice landscapes, and the prettiness of riding up to a new town. But when it's not new, it's not new.

Yea and there are people who love those things and will probably come back for Cataclysm because a lot of things will be change like landscape, stories, and events.

Mar 10, 2010#33

@Li3n

.

More proof: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27581/Study_US_Gamers_Spent_38_Billion_On_MMOs_in_2009.php

I wonder how much money was spent for consoles, and how much of that MMO cash would have instead gone into buying other PC games...

ScytheRexx said:
In a way, it is reminicint of the cigerette companies. Yes, they put warning on the label and talk about all the unhealthy qualities, but in the end they still are putting stuff in the cigerettes to get you to smoke more, because they rely on you constantly buying them.

But it's not like they can take out the nicotine without no longer making cigarettes...

Mar 10, 2010#34

Chibibar

The thing is that video games are "new" in the last 20-30 years to the main stream public. It is a virtual thing that can be created by anyone with skills and money. BUT the fact that humans have some underlying need "to get the next carrot" for a long time. I mean look at the sports franchise. How many foam hands are sold? baseball cards? comic books (well back in the old days) My friend's husband LOVES basketball. I mean LOVES basketball. His DVR contains a lot of the older games and many recording of all kinds of games that are play across the nation. (College and pro) that is a lot of game to watch. Is it bad? only if you let it take over your life.

The main different between sports and video games, is that sports are limited since it involve real athletes, but video games are all virtual. You can get that "gratification" if you solve the right puzzles, beat that next boss, get that next shiny new weapon.

This just makes the addiction to some people EASIER when it can be obtain on the tip of your hand.

I still don't think it is the company's fault. Any corporation form for profit are out to make...... well profit. There are many of us on this board play video games, but how many of us do let the video games to take over your lives?

Mar 10, 2010#35

@Li3n

If i see a guy with a problem and then find better way to take advantage of the problem i'm hardly blameless...

But the original idea was that MMO's are a rat trap taking people away from other PC games... the article was just there to make a point. Someone tell me how you don't find it mind numbingly boring already...

Mar 10, 2010#36

Math242

it may be a rat trap but the community is a huge factor as to why people keep playing.

you start fot the lore, for the fun or whatever and you stay for the people and the competition (aka epeen competition) with these people.

Mar 10, 2010#37

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
If i see a guy with a problem and then find better way to take advantage of the problem i'm hardly blameless...

But the original idea was that MMO's are a rat trap taking people away from other PC games... the article was just there to make a point. Someone tell me how you don't find it mind numbingly boring already...

well... Some do, and some don't

some of us manage to break free from WoW's chain. but WoW did have a good story for those who actually read it, but once you hit 80 with one (like me) I didn't have the energy to make another one.

In Asia, game like these are VERY popular because in real life, they can't get many things that they want (Communism and all and some lack of money and power) BUT in a virtual world their "hard work" have reward and that "excites" them in the head (as the article suggest) and thus..... people are hook cause they can get things in the virtual world and not the real world.

In America, some of it holds true but a lot of people are more "free" to do what they want and can get what they want if they work hard enough. Virtual world makes getting "stuff" MUCH MUCH easier. I mean how many minutes/hours/days you need to get X item in MMO? Some of the bigger stuff requires maybe 3-8 hours raid but earlier you need like what? 30 minutes quest? 1 hour quest? it kinda "grows" on you I guess.

What I learn from the article is that the basic human nature to acquire stuff is ALWAYS there. The game developers are just tapping that desire and gain profit from it. It is no different than anything else out there like collection of spoons, Pokemon/Yugioh/Magic cards, eating (over eating), sports nuts, Reality TV etc etc.

Mar 10, 2010#38

Kitty Sinatra

Chazwozel said:
My first ignore ever. You should be proud.

He may be proud, but I'm jealous.

Mar 10, 2010#39

fade

The problem to me is the "playing beyond fun". It's not a game anymore, even if that doesn't affect your real life. At my worst struggling learning to rollerblade or fence, it was still fun. That's the part that describes my WoW experience. I realized I was playing beyond the fun threshold just for the next reward. Which I barely acknowledged, only to move onto the next.

Mar 10, 2010#40

ScytheRexx

@Li3n said:
But it's not like they can take out the nicotine without no longer making cigarettes...

Except that people have made nicotine free cigarettes. It's just no one wants them, they don't reduce the "fix" one craves that requires nicotine. People that no longer smoke in general see no point in puffing on something if it's not going to give you some physical reaction (whether a high or a craving).

Someone tell me how you don't find it mind numbingly boring already...

Why do we need to justify it for you? What is that going to accomplish? I can give you a bullet list of every reason I play, going down for a page, and it wouldn't matter to you.

Mar 10, 2010#41

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Except that people have made nicotine free cigarettes. It's just no one wants them, they don't reduce the "fix" one craves that requires nicotine. People that no longer smoke in general see no point in puffing on something if it's not going to give you some physical reaction (whether a high or a craving).

Anyone can smoke something else, my point was that it would be another product... if they start selling pot tomorrow they would be something else. Should have said tobacco companies, that being the proper apelation too.

Why do we need to justify it for you? What is that going to accomplish? I can give you a bullet list of every reason I play, going down for a page, and it wouldn't matter to you.

So i can laugh at your feeble self justifications of course... >

Math242 said:
it may be a rat trap but the community is a huge factor as to why people keep playing.

Communities are there for MP games too you know... some of which require little repetitive grinding for loot.

Actualyl i have the same problem with Diablo type games... having to kill the same mob over and over to get good enough loot to finish the game is boring...

Mar 10, 2010#42

SpecialKO

You guys do realize (and the article does point this out) that Skinnerian timed-rewards structure underlies most games, right? :suspicious:

Even something like Braid is specifically designed in such a way that players achieve a reward result within a specific time period to induce them to continue playing.

Current MMOs are just much more blatant about it. Not saying it's not a problem, but anyone who thinks this hasn't applied to video games from their inception is fooling themselves.

The discussion on this topic in game design is less, "should games have that kind of reward structure?" and much more, "to what level of gameplay is the dominance of that structure acceptable as a design feature?"

Mar 10, 2010#43

Chibibar

TeKeo said:
You guys do realize (and the article does point this out) that Skinnerian timed-rewards structure underlies most games, right? :suspicious:

Even something like Braid is specifically designed in such a way that players achieve a reward result within a specific time period to induce them to continue playing.

Current MMOs are just much more blatant about it. Not saying it's not a problem, but anyone who thinks this hasn't applied to video games from their inception is fooling themselves.

The discussion on this topic in game design is less, "should games have that kind of reward structure?" and much more, "to what level of gameplay is the dominance of that structure acceptable as a design feature?"

Bingo. that is what I was trying to say, but you are much better than me

fade: while you may think it is "mind numbing" boring, there are tons of people who love it for their reasons. I will say this. Not all games have same level of interest for everyone.

Mar 11, 2010#44

@Li3n

TeKeo said:
You guys do realize (and the article does point this out) that Skinnerian timed-rewards structure underlies most games, right? :suspicious:

And the more they use it the more boring it is...

Mar 11, 2010#45

Chibibar

@Li3n;352658][QUOTE=TeKeo said:
You guys do realize (and the article does point this out) that Skinnerian timed-rewards structure underlies most games, right? :suspicious:

And the more they use it the more boring it is...[/QUOTE]

It is all matter of perspective.

Do you like stories? the reward could be the next story plot (popular in Japanese game and thus more stories and less fighting)
Do you want your next power? - this reward is use a lot cause some "cool" power people can't wait to use. Usually given via level or experience (how far are you in the game)
Of course you have your standard reward item - the next weapon that will make your "battle" easier (so you think) It is interesting when you look back on the games you play, you might get more "powerful" in terms of level, power, and items, but so does your encounter. They kinda scale up with you so are "technically" fighting the same mob multiply the level you are with a different skin and power

City of Heroes tweak this a bit by allowing you to take on more foes and (common one) and mow them down but the bosses kinda scale with you in terms of powers and toughness (to provide challenges)

And the most popular is purchasing item/spells/power - you need to accumulate whatever wealth you need or xp to buy the next "shiny" power. Of course the enticing part is the next power is "better" than your old power/item/spells etc. I kinda like CoX version since your original power is still as good you just get more supplement powers, but in most games (like FF series) the original power is not as good anymore and you need the I II III IV....X power to really be effective.

All above are standard timed reward, but how it is presented can be fun and not boring (but again, not all games cater to everyone)

Think of a table top gaming using time reward structure. It would be boring to most people if you stay 1st level forever using that starter weapon/power/spells. The GM will try to entice you with treasure (to buy more weapon/power/spells), stories (hopefully good one) and encounter to keep your interest. If you are bored, then you don't play with that group anymore. How is that differ? Do you gain any "real life" stuff?

Games are entertainment and they are design to keep you entertain. When people are no longer entertain, they will find something else to entertain them. Gaming companies are always going to try some new stuff (gameplay) but still stick to same formula in order to keep players coming back for more.

I think WoW (being the "most" successfully MMORPG) entice people with different element of the formula. They have stories and keep making more (expansion modules and quests) and yet retain the most basic enticement. The carrot of getting the next shiny weapon. I know how that feels. I know I'm being "lead" like a rat in a maze, but I am always excited to get that next power or reach that next level regardless what game I'm playing.

Look at Team Fortress. There are no "level" per se, but their carrots are hats (random drop) new weapons (Demo vs Soldier story) and of course new map. How long that game been out? how many people are still playing that?

It is all the same formula, just presented differently.

Mar 11, 2010#46

Dave

Mining in EvE is boring as fuck. I love it. Some hate it but I don't.

To each his own, man.

Mar 11, 2010#47

sixpackshaker

ITT computer game success is killing the industry.

Mar 11, 2010#48

@Li3n

More like how repetitive grinding is ruining it regardless of it's success.

Do you like stories? the reward could be the next story plot (popular in Japanese game and thus more stories and less fighting)

See for me if the gameplay in between is boring the good reward doesn't make it any better, even if i plough through it because i want to see the story... that's the thing, that type of reward system is all about not enjoying the parts in between the rewards, if you did it wouldn't really matter if you got the reward or not, it would just be a nice bonus.

Mar 11, 2010#49

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
More like how repetitive grinding is ruining it regardless of it's success.

Do you like stories? the reward could be the next story plot (popular in Japanese game and thus more stories and less fighting)

Click to expand...

See for me if the gameplay in between is boring the good reward doesn't make it any better, even if i plough through it because i want to see the story... that's the thing, that type of reward system is all about not enjoying the parts in between the rewards, if you did it wouldn't really matter if you got the reward or not, it would just be a nice bonus.

again, that is just what YOU feel about a certain game. Dave's comment is a perfect example. I love mining in EVE. I love building stuff. To me, that is a lot of fun. To many people who actually enjoy more in terms of fighting, ratting or exploring would totally consider mining in EVE boring and wouldn't touch it, but there are players who are more than happy to fill up that need and mine ALL DAY, day in and day out for years gathering minerals.

look at the popular simple game like Bejeweled Blitz. It is a one minute game that scores reset once a week. You have one minute to score as much as possible and all you do is match 3 or more jewels, but it is selling in the millions of copy. You may think it is boring, but other don't.

again, it doesn't make you wrong or right. I like certain things doesn't make me right or wrong. We like different things but the gaming company is trying to incorporate as many element to capture as many people as possible to play their stuff. Simple game like bejeweled capture single general population player by the storm. WoW capture general public by the millions, but I know friends who believe WoW IS boring from level 1 to 80 (they tried it and hate it), but WoW formula is working if they are the highest MMORPG subscription in the U.S. (not sure of Asia since there are tons of grind fest MMORPG)

Mar 11, 2010#50

@Li3n

Why would i think Bejeweled is boring?! It's a puzzle game, you enjoy it for the mental challenge...

As for sales, i think it was JCM that liked to bring up Britney Spears when it comes to that...

Mar 11, 2010#51

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
Why would i think Bejeweled is boring?! It's a puzzle game, you enjoy it for the mental challenge...

As for sales, i think it was JCM that liked to bring up Britney Spears when it comes to that...

you don't think it is boring, but other think they are like you think some MMORPG are boring. It all comes down to taste, but in this OP/article. It comes down to self control. There are people around the world that shouldn't have access to games like that cause they have no self control. What we have so far?

People killing other people for virtual stuff? (Korean lately)
a baby died of malnutrition due to MMORPG cause parents play more than taking care of baby? it happen
Kids killing themselves when their character died. Yea happen here too (U.S.)
People are so addicted that they lose their family, their house, and their lives? yup.. happen too

Who's fault is it?

Mar 11, 2010#52

ScytheRexx

@Li3n said:
As for sales, i think it was JCM that liked to bring up Britney Spears when it comes to that...

Mar 11, 2010#53

fade

Chibi, I never said people couldn't find different things enjoyable. If you like it, by all means do it. But that also doesn't change the oddness of playing beyond the fun threshold, which I think a lot of WoW players do, evidenced by the many posts of that nature here and at other forums I frequent, and by the constant mantra "it gets better at the end".

Mar 11, 2010#54

Chibibar

fade said:
Chibi, I never said people couldn't find different things enjoyable. If you like it, by all means do it. But that also doesn't change the oddness of playing beyond the fun threshold, which I think a lot of WoW players do, evidenced by the many posts of that nature here and at other forums I frequent, and by the constant mantra "it gets better at the end".

well.. again.. the forum usually contain a small fraction of people. Unless over 10 million subscriber post on the forum.. heck... a million would be good stats, but usually they are less (I don't have hard numbers) Like any entertainment, you have a choice to subscribe/play or not to play. No one if forcing you to play (well.... they can "force" you to raid

like my guild which cause me to quit but that is a different story) it is matter of choice. WoW subsciption continue to grow for some reason. The article proves that the method works and people still play.

The "fun" threshold is still a personal level. I found it fun from level 1 to 80 with my pally, but I don't find end game as much fun. I'm one of the few. Some players believe end game is where it at and it is fun for them.

Mar 11, 2010#55

ScytheRexx

Chibibar said:
The "fun" threshold is still a personal level. I found it fun from level 1 to 80 with my pally, but I don't find end game as much fun. I'm one of the few. Some players believe end game is where it at and it is fun for them.

And then you have people like me that find both enjoyable.

Mar 11, 2010#56

Chibibar

ScytheRexx;353252][QUOTE=Chibibar said:
The "fun" threshold is still a personal level. I found it fun from level 1 to 80 with my pally, but I don't find end game as much fun. I'm one of the few. Some players believe end game is where it at and it is fun for them.

And then you have people like me that find both enjoyable.[/QUOTE]

exactly

It is kinda hard to argue what is consider fun, since many people have different level of they consider fun, what we can argue about (I guess we could argue about anything) is using the carrot method "ethical"? well...... company is out to make money. Blizzard bottom line is making money. If they can make an awesome game that continue to sell after 10 years (Starcraft anyone?) that is even better. The formula works and company will continue to use it, but I think the important thing is that left to parents to help teach their kids of self control.

Yes this is a new world where you can get information at your fingertip (right or wrong info regardless, with internet and phone, you learn stuff REAL fast real quick) it seems that kids also want "instant gratification" which I hope my kids won't pick that up.

I think that is kill games. I use to remember some hard games that was purely awesome, but now-a-days the game play is much easier or dumb down

Mar 11, 2010#57

fade

Again, I don't think I ever disagreed with that. And I never said that the posts I read were a representative sample (though I can say that the "it gets fun at the end" thing I've encountered a huge number of times). I don't have percentages or stats, but I've seen it enough times to agree with the article writer who apparently has seen it a good number of times, too.

Mar 12, 2010#58

@Li3n

ScytheRexx;353141][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
As for sales, i think it was JCM that liked to bring up Britney Spears when it comes to that...

That is an arguement of personal quality, not enjoyment. I hate Spears music, but I am a person that prefers Alice In Chains or Disturbed then the latest pop sensation.

Chibibar is arguing that different people enjoy different things, and while Britney Spears is not exactly Beethoven, people liked her music enough to buy it, and that means they probably enjoyed it. People that buy WoW, or EvE, or MW2, or even Bejeweled, do it because they enjoy those games. The numbers are just a way to understand how many people enjoy that type of game over those other people.

You can "rage" as much as you want about popular items of pop culture, but it does not make the people that enjoy such things enjoy them any less.[/QUOTE]

Except that they don't enjoy it, they enjoy the timed rewards, which is why it's BS... unless people actually enjoy doing repetitive tasks over and over, then nuking it from orbit is the only option.

And seriously, comparing puzzle games to "kill x number of y over and over" is rather ridiculous. In one i'm challenging my mind while in the other i'm basically working towards a paycheck... sure, playing Bejeweled all day gets boring eventually, but so does everything at some point.

As for enjoying Britney Spears, i know a lot of people who listened to a local style of music in highschool that once they actually didn't need to fit in anymore as they belonged now they all started realising how much that music sucked... or so they claimed... so excise me if i'm doubtful about people actually enjoying the music instead of just following their herd instinct.

Chibi, I never said people couldn't find different things enjoyable. If you like it, by all means do it. But that also doesn't change the oddness of playing beyond the fun threshold, which I think a lot of WoW players do, evidenced by the many posts of that nature here and at other forums I frequent, and by the constant mantra "it gets better at the end".

Exactly, that's the problem with the rat maze, you do it because of the cheese at the end, and frankly that's too much like work for me.

DoW2's Last Stand mode had the right idea... your hero doesn't get better stats as he levels up, but he gets more options in armament and skills...

Mar 12, 2010#59

Chibibar

well... I believe three are people who actually enjoy doing repetitive stuff (game, life, anything really) I remember my philosophy prof tells me there are two types of people, leaders and sheep. (well generalizing of course) The leaders love to innovate, do something new, and well.. lead.

The sheep, they just follow the crowd and repeat. I do have co worker who are just happy to literally "grind" the same stuff all day long and actually happy about it. They don't like change cause it mess up their pattern.

Mar 12, 2010#60

@Li3n

Sounds more like they like things they know. At work i too prefer doing run of the mill stuff as it requires less mental effort. Of course that's work, putting extra effort into it for no extra pay feels unnatural.

Mar 12, 2010#61

ScytheRexx

Except that they don't enjoy it, they enjoy the timed rewards, which is why it's BS... unless people actually enjoy doing repetitive tasks over and over, then nuking it from orbit is the only option.

And seriously, comparing puzzle games to "kill x number of y over and over" is rather ridiculous. In one i'm challenging my mind while in the other i'm basically working towards a paycheck... sure, playing Bejeweled all day gets boring eventually, but so does everything at some point.

Oh, so you speak for millions of people now? People do enjoy repetitive tasks, otherwise things like Bejeweled wouldn't exist. You call Bejeweled a "puzzle" game, but the nature of that puzzle game is to shift little colored shapes over and over and over and over again add infinitium with the only real strategy to be anticipating combos. I get the same stimulation out of healing Morrowgar on ICC25 man that I do playing Bejeweled, and yes, I play Bejeweled constantly.

Everything CAN get boring after awhile, but it does not always mean it will. There is not absolutism in this Liam, but your personal opinion on what "should" become boring.

As for enjoying Britney Spears, i know a lot of people who listened to a local style of music in highschool that once they actually didn't need to fit in anymore as they belonged now they all started realising how much that music sucked... or so they claimed... so excise me if i'm doubtful about people actually enjoying the music instead of just following their herd instinct.

That is called changing tastes.

I used to listen to Metallica and Blink 182. I now only semi-enjoy Metallica music and turn Blink 182 off when I hear it. Does this mean I didn't enjoy the music in high school? Not at all, I just realized later that I didn't like the music once I started hearing things from Disturbed, Motorhead, etc... Right now I listen every day to The Fame from Lady GaGa, and I enjoy it, but I know sooner or later as I age my taste is going to shift, right now I am really digging a band called Phoenix.

Does this mean somehow I didn't enjoy Blink 182 back then? No, I did, but after awhile when the interest faded, I moved on. I can't bring myself to play the original Mortal Kombat in this day and age, because I am not interested in fighting games like I was, but that does not mean I actually "hated" it when I played it as a kid, and just now realize I hated it.

Everyone loves to use the "herd" mentality as some wacky excuse to why they liked something that, now that they are older, they feel "embarrassed" having enjoyed. I don't buy that. You didn't put Britney Spears on your walkman, or go to her concert all alone, because you totally thought she sucked but wanted people to like you. If you did you seriously have problems that extend beyond gaming, music, or anything else.

Exactly, that's the problem with the rat maze, you do it because of the cheese at the end, and frankly that's too much like work for me.

Not everyone does it for the cheese. Some of us do it for the maze. The cheese is just the cherry on top.

In the end though, I don't plan to change your mind. You can "rage" about how people playing a game are not actually enjoying them, but in the end I will still play and enjoy myself, as will my friends. On the day I don't enjoy the game, I will quit. You and your opinion are not really going to change that any better then I can convince you to see logic and reasoning.

So good luck with that.

Mar 12, 2010#62

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
Oh, so you speak for millions of people now? People do enjoy repetitive tasks, otherwise things like Bejeweled wouldn't exist. You call Bejeweled a "puzzle" game, but the nature of that puzzle game is to shift little colored shapes over and over and over and over again add infinitium with the only real strategy to be anticipating combos. I get the same stimulation out of healing Morrowgar on ICC25 man that I do playing Bejeweled, and yes, I play Bejeweled constantly.

And a shooter is all about clicking and using the directional buttons, and any sport is all about moving your limbs around... if you over generalize like that everything is about doing certain actions over and over.

Sure, Bejeweled is not that much more complex, but it offers something extra from the "kill X of Y's by hitting them with a sword in the exact same way so you eventually get a reward" thing MMO's have going if only in the fact that it requires your brain to make associations that require a level of sentience.

And i'm not the one calling it a puzzle game, it's what Bejeweled is, look it up.

Everything CAN get boring after awhile, but it does not always mean it will. There is not absolutism in this Liam, but your personal opinion on what "should" become boring.

Are you actually implying that there are humans that wouldn't eventually get bored with doing the same thing over and over unless it was part of an addiction?! Even MMO's offer some variation in what activities you are engaged in for that very reason.

If you do it enough with no variation in between everything eventually get's boring for everyone because we're not robots.

Sure, people have different thresholds, but that's different. So i think you should change "should" there with "when"...

That is called changing tastes.

I used to listen to Metallica and Blink 182. I now only semi-enjoy Metallica music and turn Blink 182 off when I hear it. Does this mean I didn't enjoy the music in high school? Not at all, I just realized later that I didn't like the music once I started hearing things from Disturbed, Motorhead, etc... Right now I listen every day to The Fame from Lady GaGa, and I enjoy it, but I know sooner or later as I age my taste is going to shift, right now I am really digging a band called Phoenix.

Does this mean somehow I didn't enjoy Blink 182 back then? No, I did, but after awhile when the interest faded, I moved on. I can't bring myself to play the original Mortal Kombat in this day and age, because I am not interested in fighting games like I was, but that does not mean I actually "hated" it when I played it as a kid, and just now realize I hated it.

Everyone loves to use the "herd" mentality as some wacky excuse to why they liked something that, now that they are older, they feel "embarrassed" having enjoyed. I don't buy that. You didn't put Britney Spears on your walkman, or go to her concert all alone, because you totally thought she sucked but wanted people to like you. If you did you seriously have problems that extend beyond gaming, music, or anything else.

You obviously never heard of "manele"... Britney Spears is nothing compared to them...

But the guys i'm talking about where never that into it, they listened to the music because their friends did, and just dismissed people that said it sucked by saying exactly that, that they listened to it because others did and it's not that bad. That's actually why i remember when they stopped, because i eye-rolled big time when it happened because they dismissed me when i argued it sucked without offering any counterpoints about why it didn't.

And wouldn't using "herd mentality" as an excuse just make them look worse?!

And i still enjoy Blink 182 because i never saw them for something they weren't...

Not everyone does it for the cheese. Some of us do it for the maze. The cheese is just the cherry on top.

In the end though, I don't plan to change your mind. You can "rage" about how people playing a game are not actually enjoying them, but in the end I will still play and enjoy myself, as will my friends. On the day I don't enjoy the game, I will quit. You and your opinion are not really going to change that any better then I can convince you to see logic and reasoning.

So good luck with that.

You do realise that the whole point of the Skinner Box stuff is that you start "enjoying" the activity by association, right?!

Ask yourself, would you really enjoy the game less if someone took out the the grinding? It's not like the social aspect of a MMO would go away if you didn't need to farm for 10 hours to get some item that you need to be able to play with your friends in that raid that they want to do?!

To make it more clear, the problem comes from the parts that are designed as time sinks to artificially spend more time playing the game, which isn't a problem for MMO's exclusively (Assassins Creed had you walk through the same map over and over again to get to another town without which - and with waypoints instead - the game would probably be a few hours shorter).

Not everyone does it for the cheese. Some of us do it for the maze. The cheese is just the cherry on top.

Read the part about the chests in the cracked article... you actually telling me that clicking on chests over and over is enjoyable?! There are better ways to appeal to one's competitive impulses IMO.

Mar 12, 2010#63

Chibibar

Li3n: as hard is it to believe there are people who DO enjoy it. I have a friend for a long time just love to gather materials (and HORDE THEM) in UO FOR FIVE YEARS. Every day he logs in, mine them, and store in a bag (after smelting into ingot) he never sold a single ingot to any players. Just horde them. After we quit (we were in a guild together), there was like over 100,000 ingots of each type that we just gave away.

Day in, day out, there are people who are comfortable and some actually enjoy the repetitive thing. You don't, you think that others' don't, but you will be surprise how many people actually DO.

edit: "Crack in a chest" is the same like gambling. Some people (actual cases somewhere) actually just enjoy the ART of gambling. pulling slots day in and day out. Yea.. people like that do exist. (to me pulling slots is like opening chest day in and day out same thing over and over again..... some find that FUN!)

Mar 12, 2010#64

Dave

I've said it before. I love mining in EvE. Most people find it boring. I find boring fun. (Get it? Boring? As in to bore for things? I crack myself up!)

Mar 12, 2010#65

Chibibar

Dave said:
I've said it before. I love mining in EvE. Most people find it boring. I find boring fun. (Get it? Boring? As in to bore for things? I crack myself up!)

Hehe... I love mining too. I never sold any of my minerals either and don't mine mining for good mint (blah.. I tried) there are times I just mine hours upon hours just clicking and eating up another asteroid. I find NPC pirate annoying to interrupt my mining operation in high sec

Mar 12, 2010#66

ScytheRexx

I am altering my first comment, as it was unfair of me, so I apologize in that regard. At least it has remained civil and should remain as such.

@Li3n said:
And a shooter is all about clicking and using the directional buttons, and any sport is all about moving your limbs around... if you over generalize like that everything is about doing certain actions over and over.

Exactly, so what makes moving little boxes around more stimulating them healing 25 people in a raid? Nothing. That is your issue.

Sure, Bejeweled is not that much more complex, but it offers something extra from the "kill X of Y's by hitting them with a sword in the exact same way so you eventually get a reward" thing MMO's have going if only in the fact that it requires your brain to make associations that require a level of sentience.

What does it offer extra? A high score? I think your issue here is that you are making a flawed parallel. You blame me of "generalizing" games when you obviously are "generalizing" the MMO as nothing but a mind-numbing experience. You don't stand there and hit a button and the something dies, though that is possible in certain situations. When you raid, you have to be on your game with everything from rotations, to movement, to cooldown and GCD management. When you PVP you have to think on your toes, utilize utility abilities to not get caught offguard by the enemy. Even ignoring that, and going out into the world, you can manage your gold supply and work on the AH, buying out undercutters to make profit on materials, etc... All of which I enjoy by doing them, regardless if the shiny purple drops. I have openly passed on loot simply because I found others may get more use out of upgrades then me, because the loot is irrelevant.

You see the game as nothing but "guy hits thing, thing dies." and that is far from the game, and has been for a long time, regardless if the game is WoW, EvE, EQ2, or even AION. You are the one here generalizing. Maybe the lower levels are closer to that, but that is why you should pay attention to story and quests. Sometimes those won't catch you, like Fade, and that is fair, that is why Fade does not play. Others though, it does, which is why I enjoy leveling characters and switching up zones, quests, and dungeons.

And i'm not the one calling it a puzzle game, it's what Bejeweled is, look it up.

I know it's a puzzle game, but I don't really find it much of a "puzzle". It's moving blocks, anticipating combos, and trying to get multipliers. It has a similar design to what I do healing in WoW, anticipation, reflex, and preparation. I love both games, but I am one that sees the parallels rather then discrediting based on genres.

Are you actually implying that there are humans that wouldn't eventually get bored with doing the same thing over and over unless it was part of an addiction?! Even MMO's offer some variation in what activities you are engaged in for that very reason.

If you do it enough with no variation in between everything eventually get's boring for everyone because we're not robots.

Sure, people have different thresholds, but that's different. So i think you should change "should" there with "when"...

I was not speaking of it on those terms. It is obvious people get bored sooner or later with something. That is a given. However, you are of the opinion we "should" be bored now, when that is not the case. You are applying personal standards that have no basis on us. We will get bored when we get bored, you have no ability to decide when we do. Try again.

But the guys i'm talking about where never that into it, they listened to the music because their friends did, and just dismissed people that said it sucked by saying exactly that, that they listened to it because others did and it's not that bad. That's actually why i remember when they stopped, because i eye-rolled big time when it happened because they dismissed me when i argued it sucked without offering any counterpoints about why it didn't.

So they were so not into the music that they actually "defended" it when you said it sucked? Sorry, but that should tell you they WERE into it. When they started liking other music, the taste changed and now they look back and are embarrassed to talk about the fact they liked it. Why? Because you and possible others are perpetuating the idea that they should be embarrassed for it, since to you, the music "sucked" so much you had to eye-roll them for it.

If anything, you are the one perpetuating a herd mentality, by making people feel embarrassed for what they enjoy that they have to hide it, rather then being honest that at one time they liked it. "I was just listening to everyone else, they MADE me tap my foot to "Hit me, Baby!"

You do realise that the whole point of the Skinner Box stuff is that you start "enjoying" the activity by association, right?!

The skinner box is the idea that in order to get reward, I hit button, and if I don't hit button, I don't get reward, or I get punished, thus training me to hit the button. Your issue is that I don't play for the reward, I play to press the button, because I like pressing the button. We are not rats looking for cheese, we are humans with ideals, perceptions, and sentient thoughts that make our own choices.

Ask yourself, would you really enjoy the game less if someone took out the the grinding? It's not like the social aspect of a MMO would go away if you didn't need to farm for 10 hours to get some item that you need to be able to play with your friends in that raid that they want to do?!

This is not about enjoying the game "more" if they took away the grind. That is not the arguement. The arguement is whether I enjoy the game at all. You are implying I shouldn't enjoy the game because it has a grind and emulates the idea of a Skinner Box, I am saying you don't make the choice for me, sometimes pushing the button can be just as nice and the pellets coming out of the hole in the wall. You don't like to believe that, and I am calling out the fact such an outlook is foolish.

To make it more clear, the problem comes from the parts that are designed as time sinks to artificially spend more time playing the game, which isn't a problem for MMO's exclusively (Assassins Creed had you walk through the same map over and over again to get to another town without which - and with waypoints instead - the game would probably be a few hours shorter).

The nature of gaming is the artificial timesink. That is nothing new. You can add or take away things to lengthen or speed up the game, but that does not stop the whole thing by nature of being a timesink. I remember when Oblivion was released, many people complained about "instant map travel" because it removed the epic feeling of the world, even though the nature of running around in all those woods was nothing but a time sink. Sometimes people like the journey, not the destination, and other times its the opposite.

Read the part about the chests in the cracked article... you actually telling me that clicking on chests over and over is enjoyable?! There are better ways to appeal to one's competitive impulses IMO.

I don't care for chests, but I do enjoy going out on my drake and collecting Saronite for an hour to sell on the AH. If I didn't enjoy it (and sometimes I am not in the mood for it) I just do something else.

I will give you one thing. There are people out there that are rats stuck in a box that push the button for a reward, I even said there was a fair comparison. The issue is that we are humans have the choice to decide what we do, and do not, find enjoyable. The game is not putting us inside a skinner box, but some people may allow the game to become a personal skinner box to them. That can happen whether it was an MMO or a guy collecting nothing but Simpsons figurines. Anything can become an unhealthy obsession.

Mar 12, 2010#67

Necronic

Bejewelled (or any puzzle game) is an example of a more complex carrot, and isn't based on time invested.

Mar 12, 2010#68

@Li3n

Ok man, chillax, i don't think everything you do in a MMO is boring, i just don't like what you have to do to get to the good parts...

I know it's a puzzle game, but I don't really find it much of a "puzzle". It's moving blocks, anticipating combos, and trying to get multipliers. It has a similar design to what I do healing in WoW, anticipation, reflex, and preparation.

But that's not what i'm talking about, of course playing with other people isn't repetitive because other people are not robots...

See, you're under the impression that because i don't like MMO's because of the grind they require that i think everything in them is bad...

Even ignoring that, and going out into the world, you can manage your gold supply and work on the AH, buying out undercutters to make profit on materials, etc... All of which I enjoy by doing them, regardless if the shiny purple drops. I have openly passed on loot simply because I found others may get more use out of upgrades then me, because the loot is irrelevant.

You do realise that those are rewards too, right?! "I got a better price" or "I made something"! Of course the system in place could be fun or boring, i'm guessing with an Action House and plenty of players around you don't have to wait around for 2 hours to sell something like you did in Lineage 2 (at least for the pirated servers, i stopped playing long before my friends started playing on official servers).

Exactly, so what makes moving little boxes around more stimulating them healing 25 people in a raid? Nothing.

See, even you aren't defending farming for hours on your own...

Why? Because you and possible others are perpetuating the idea that they should be embarrassed for it, since to you, the music "sucked" so much you had to eye-roll them for it.

Except that i didn't say anything, by 12th grade i was already jaded about it... the eye rolling was all internal...

And teh music sucks, trust me... it's like someone took turkish and gypsy traditional music and took out everything that made it distinct and then added retarded lyrics...

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------

Necronic said:
Bejewelled (or any puzzle game) is an example of a more complex carrot, and isn't based on time invested.

But of course the shiny explosions, scores and other stuff is a carrot too, while the game would be enjoyable even without them if you like using your brain n the way the game requires (same as liking crossword puzzles).

Mar 12, 2010#69

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
Ok man, chillax, i don't think everything you do in a MMO is boring, i just don't like what you have to do to get to the good parts...

but that is the thing. What you consider "boring part" some people think that is the highlight of the game. What you consider "the good part" (i.e. raids) to ME is consider WORST part of the game

it is all matter of perspective.

As for Britney Spears - I still like her old stuff. I have them on CD. I bought her old CD (recently cause I lost my old stuff) her new stuff.... not so much. It is not because of the "crowd" heck, most people think I'm weird for liking Britney at my age, but I like what I like and I spend MY money how I see fit. Yes, I recently bought Hanna Montana Movie CD cause I watch the movie (via cable cause I didn't think it was worth going to the theater) and I like it. My wife and I like some of the songs and we bought the CD.

Of course many of my friends don't like the movie at all much less Hanna Montana.

Mar 12, 2010#70

ScytheRexx

@Li3n said:
Ok man, chillax, i don't think everything you do in a MMO is boring, i just don't like what you have to do to get to the good parts....

And I am saying that what you call the "good parts" are not always going to be the only good parts. Some of us LIKE what we have to do to get to the points you call the good parts, they are just all "good parts". I am fighting for the right for myself and others to enjoy what we do, rather then be implicated as nothing but rats locked in a box. This goes for games, movies, and anything else that is entertainment (as long as it does not involve hurting anything). I don't care what your opinion of MMOs are, but I want you to respect my right to enjoy something you may find unenjoyable.

Except that i didn't say anything, by 12th grade i was already jaded about it... the eye rolling was all internal...

You just said you argued with them about it causing them to defend the music. Now you are saying you never said anything? I am getting mixed signals here.

Mar 12, 2010#71

@Li3n

"ScytheRexx said:
@Li3n said:

Ok man, chillax, i don't think everything you do in a MMO is boring, i just don't like what you have to do to get to the good parts....

Click to expand...

And I am saying that what you call the "good parts" are not always going to be the only good parts. Some of us LIKE what we have to do to get to the points you call the good parts, they are just all "good parts". I am fighting for the right for myself and others to enjoy what we do, rather then be implicated as nothing but rats locked in a box. This goes for games, movies, and anything else that is entertainment (as long as it does not involve hurting anything). I don't care what your opinion of MMOs are, but I want you to respect my right to enjoy something you may find unenjoyable.

If you where really enjoying it why would you care so much about other people's opinion on your enjoyment?

Conditioning experiments pretty much proved that you can get people to end up enjoying anything with the right stimuli (which isn't only loot). The question is, would one still enjoy it without them? Search your feelings, you know it to be true...

Heck, that's one of the reasons why i don't like competitive gaming, sure, winning feels great, but i'm no longer enjoying the game, i'm trying to win...

ScytheRexx said:
Except that i didn't say anything, by 12th grade i was already jaded about it... the eye rolling was all internal...

Click to expand...

You just said you argued with them about it causing them to defend the music. Now you are saying you never said anything? I am getting mixed signals here.

You do know what jaded means, right?!

What you consider "boring part" some people think that is the highlight of the game. What you consider "the good part" (i.e. raids) to ME is consider WORST part of the game it is all matter of perspective.

Well i wouldn't say good, as it all depends on the system in place and other things... i was just highlighting the difference between time sinking grinding and actually playing with a group (which can actually make the grinding less boring, for a social animal like humans anyway).

Mar 12, 2010#72

ScytheRexx

@Li3n said:
If you where really enjoying it why would you care so much about other people's opinion on your enjoyment?

Because when one feels strongly about something, one defends it. In the end, I won't even remember this post in a week. I never planned to change your opinion on games, only to put across another point for review.

Conditioning experiments pretty much proved that you can get people to end up enjoying anything with the right stimuli (which isn't only loot). The question is, would one still enjoy it without them? Search your feelings, you know it to be true...

That is funny because life itself is about being conditioned, whether through personal experiences and outside forces. You are conditioned by your parents, you are conditioned by friends, you are conditioned by school, you are conditioned by your environment as a whole.

I am not arguing "conditioning" as I obviously have been conditioned over the years to not find "repetitive" tasks boring. This is not an arguement of conditioning, it is an arguement of enjoyment. The fact I enjoy it for what I get does not make my enjoyment any less credible then your enjoyment in whatever you like. Like I said before, I agree that game companies take into account the nature "carrot on a stick" system, I am just saying such a system is not, in the end, bad unless you don't like that type of play. At which point, you have the choice to not play it.

Can the game be fun without any time sinks? Yes. Does that mean all time sinks are boring? No.

You do know what jaded means, right?!

You know what clarity means, right? If you don't mean to implicate something you did, don't mention it and then retract. Jaded or not, you contradicted yourself.

Mar 12, 2010#73

Hailey Knight

Anyone see today's Penny Arcade?

Scythe, you get pretty prissy about defending this stuff. Can't you enjoy it without caring what others think of it? Why do you need to validate it? If it's actually a game to you, and fun, meaning they should be wrong, why are they getting to you?

Mar 12, 2010#74

ScytheRexx

escushion said:
Can't you enjoy it without caring what others think of it? Why do you need to validate it?

Who says I was trying to validate anything? I was bringing a point to the table that I feel strongly about, I thought that was something we did on discussion boards? Or was I mistaken?

I know what people think. I get "insulted" a lot for my hobbies. I don't care most of the time. There are times however, one must take a stand to get his point of view across, otherwise I can just wallow in the shadows. While that is always the safe route, then no one will ever consider what I have to say. I might as well not exist.

If it's actually a game to you, and fun, meaning they should be wrong, why are they getting to you?

I understand where you are coming from escushion, and I appreciate it. I just think you are getting the wrong idea about why I am in this discussion. I can care less about WoW, I am not even playing it this weekend as I have my 2 year wedding anniversary to plan, but I will not stand silent when I feel someone is being unfair to what people find enjoyable. Maybe its a principle thing.

Either way, I have to much to do to continue discussion, so good weekend all.

Mar 12, 2010#75

@Li3n

escushion said:
Anyone see today's Penny Arcade?

I just did, and came here just to post it before bed:

You know what clarity means, right? If you don't mean to implicate something you did, don't mention it and then retract. Jaded or not, you contradicted yourself.

Because it's late i'm i don't want to come across too strong i'll just explain: by saying jaded i meant that by the 12th grade i didn't even feel like gloating over being right anymore... thus implying that at one point i did argue with them... but that point has long passed.

Can the game be fun without any time sinks? Yes. Does that mean all time sinks are boring? No.

Name one that's not boring?!

Also, why i'm arguing is that it always annoys me that people seem to need something they enjoy to be good, and thus tend to ignore the flaws... like i said about Blink-182, i don't think it's necessarily good music (though the crap i've heard it might as well be), but i still enjoy it.

And i'll get to the rest tomorrow, need sleep now... hope this post made sense.

Mar 15, 2010#76

@Li3n

ScytheRexx said:
That is funny because life itself is about being conditioned, whether through personal experiences and outside forces. You are conditioned by your parents, you are conditioned by friends, you are conditioned by school, you are conditioned by your environment as a whole.

But as human beings we can take a step back and apply some critical thinking on ourselves... that way one can figure out what one enjoys for itself and what one enjoys because they've been conditioned to. Especially for stuff where the enjoyment is purely mental.

ScytheRexx said:
I am not arguing "conditioning" as I obviously have been conditioned over the years to not find "repetitive" tasks boring. This is not an arguement of conditioning, it is an arguement of enjoyment. The fact I enjoy it for what I get does not make my enjoyment any less credible then your enjoyment in whatever you like. Like I said before, I agree that game companies take into account the nature "carrot on a stick" system, I am just saying such a system is not, in the end, bad unless you don't like that type of play. At which point, you have the choice to not play it.

The system is bad because it justifies a lack of care for the gameplay as long as the carrot is good enough... repetition being one of the more mild symptoms.

I understand where you are coming from escushion, and I appreciate it. I just think you are getting the wrong idea about why I am in this discussion.

It's not your participation, but the emotional level of your response...

ScytheRexx said:
I can care less about WoW, I am not even playing it this weekend as I have my 2 year wedding anniversary to plan

That's both funny and kinda creepy...

Mar 15, 2010#77

ScytheRexx

@Li3n said:
It's not your participation, but the emotional level of your response...

I will give you that my passion in regards to the issue may have hurt my arguement, so I will relent to the fact that I simply will enjoy what I will. I have no intention to continue to justify it, as I have no need to feel concerned by what people feel in regards to it. At least it was an interesting discussion.

Mar 15, 2010#78

Chibibar

Li3n: I think the point is that you came out saying "how on earth can anyone find the boring part fun?" At least that is how Dave, Scyth, and I see it. We try to tell you that what you consider "boring" is actually fun for us.

The whole argument (at least it derail to this part) is that you thought the boring part can never be fun and people only "go through it" just to get "to the good part" (in this example WoW) Of course some of us (I can speak only for myself) that the boring part to you is fun for me. The "good part" (the end game in WoW) is what you consider fun for you is boring for me (the main reason to cause me to quit. It was not fun anymore)

We are not arguing about conditioning or anything like that. What we are arguing about is what you consider fun and boring is different to others. While I trying to tell you that, you still consider those part boring and dismiss it (at least it seems like it) I guess that is where Scyth start defending it cause well..... We just want to tell you not everyone enjoy the game the same way.

I guess the bottom line is that companies will continue to use these methods cause it works. The "WoW Formula" (as I call it) works VERY well. It is one of the highest subscription in the U.S. (not sure in the world) in terms of MMORPG. So whatever they are doing, they are doing it right to the majority of the people. Is it wrong? I don't think so. The company is out to make money. People have free will (at least those who believe they do) you make your own decision if you want to play, eat something, watch a show, play a sport, work out, whatever in your life and you can CHOOSE to do it. Sure basic human nature might take over (like the formula from OP) but people should have the will to overcome it, but of course like anything, you always have exception to the rules.

Mar 17, 2010#79

@Li3n

We try to tell you that what you consider "boring" is actually fun for us.

Yeah, and i'm telling you that your kidding yourselves if you think doing the same thing over and over (aka grinding) is something any human enjoys on it's own... we're just not wired that way. But you can get yourself to enjoy almost anything using the right rewards, as per the scientific stuff in the Cracked article...

I find it's important to know the difference if you really want to be able to choose. It's not like i don't have stuff i enjoy just because i was conditioned to.

Of course some of us (I can speak only for myself) that the boring part to you is fun for me. The "good part" (the end game in WoW) is what you consider fun for you is boring for me (the main reason to cause me to quit. It was not fun anymore)

I was talking more about the parts that are less about repetition, not necessarily the end game per se.

The company is out to make money. People have free will (at least those who believe they do) you make your own decision if you want to play, eat something, watch a show, play a sport, work out, whatever in your life and you can CHOOSE to do it.

I can say the same thing about anyone selling physically addictive substances... being out to make money isn't something i'd use as an excuse. (Plus, all this stuff is more about keeping your player base, not attracting more players, WoW's popularity stems more from being a Blizzard product).

Mar 17, 2010#80

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
We try to tell you that what you consider "boring" is actually fun for us.

Click to expand...

Yeah, and i'm telling you that your kidding yourselves if you think doing the same thing over and over (aka grinding) is something any human enjoys on it's own... we're just not wired that way. But you can get yourself to enjoy almost anything using the right rewards, as per the scientific stuff in the Cracked article...

I find it's important to know the difference if you really want to be able to choose. It's not like i don't have stuff i enjoy just because i was conditioned to.

See. I think you might be wrong on this. Lets look at the bigger picture. I will use my work as an example since it is something I am more familiar with. People are creature of habits. How this come to be can be factor from many different reasons: upbringing, society, social interaction, chemical, psychological and what have you.

There are more people who actually enjoy the SAME pattern over and over again. There are some people who even DEMAND same pattern (OCD for example at my work) and do not want to derail from said pattern. Now being, IT, I have to introduce change once in a while to our technological network. I have to upgrade software to keep up with the market (students) I have upgrade OS, new LMS system, new teaching software and such and EVERY SINGLE time there are large pool of people who totally oppose it even when the software is actually an improvement from the previous version. People hate changes, much less drastic changes at my work but some will just adjust and move on. To me, this is a form of grinding. Maybe some will do it for a paycheck, but like others, enjoy teaching (the values that they see what we might not see) cause the paycheck is NOT that good compare to the private sectors.

I will go back to my old Ultima Online days. My friend and I love mining. We just mine all day in and day out. Generally, most people who mine minerals usually make something out of it and sell for in game money (in this case gold if you never play UO) but we never made ANYTHING much out of it. We just mine as much as we could and smelt into ingots and kept it. We did that for 7 years. We may occasionally use some of it to make stuff for ourselves and yet, we do that every day (most days) for the course of 7 years. After many changes of UO, it got boring and we quit. I was the last to go (my friend quit 2 years before me) and I continue to do the same thing. We literally had hundreds of thousands of ingot (max stack allow at the time I can't remember) sitting in bags in my tower (player housing) and I just left it there and unlock my door when I quit (gave it away)

I enjoy the time I spent there. I never regret spending the money (was 10$ a month to like 15$/mo)

am I kidding myself? possible, but to me, I enjoy it. Why would it matter if I was kidding myself? The main point is that it was fun for me at the time. That was the longest MMORPG I have ever played. I'm a crafter in MMO. I love to make things. I don't care if I never be rich like other crafters in other MMO, cause I enjoy making stuff and hoarding them.

I guess the basic question would be, why does MY idea of fun have to match YOUR idea of fun? I mean, heck, there are stuff that some consider fun (bungee jumping, white water rafting, skiing, para-sailing, scuba, racketball and such - these are what I consider fun) while my wife doesn't consider any of the previous activities fun for her at all. She does like snorkel but hate scuba. She loves canoe rides, but not kayak (she like calmer stuff usually) is she wrong? no. I love dancing, and she doesn't, but we both like different type of music.

I have seen that other (in my guilds) just want to make as many level 80 characters in WoW as possible. Not for raid, not for fame, just do it for herself. That is fun for her on the SAME side (thus basically the same story in WoW except starting area for like 20 levels or so) When I met her, she had like 10 at the time (in 2 accounts) until I came along, she never consider raiding at all (she was the one recruited me to the guild) but that is a different story.

As for grinding, I personally believe that people ARE wired that way due to habits. A lot of people just do things. Do they enjoy it? some do, some don't. The basic things is that everyone is different and not everyone follows the "same human formula" no matter how many psychologist may tell you. IF that was the case, we would be able to cure all the "mental sickness" out there, but alas, I don't see that going on.

Anyways. I guess we can conclude on this matter cause we have stumble to a brick steel lined wall. You will be unconvinced on the matter that people are not the same and may like things that you don't (i.e. grinding) while I believe that people are wired differently and some CAN enjoy it while others don't. It is matter of personal fun so to me, it doesn't make any difference if you agree to that person or not. In my case, it was a lot of fun for me at the time and I was willing to shell out money and play it.

In case you never play UO. Everquest was out at the time (my friends called it EverCrack) and I never seem to like it. I think it was lacking the crafting side (mining, gathering materials and such) so never gotten into it.

Mar 18, 2010#81

@Li3n

People like pattern because they enjoy feeling safe... like in your example, where the person who recruited you never even considered raiding, meaning she didn't even know if she'd enjoy more or not...

I have upgrade OS, new LMS system, new teaching software and such and EVERY SINGLE time there are large pool of people who totally oppose it even when the software is actually an improvement from the previous version.

Exactly, people prefer stuff already in their conform zone to better stuff that they're not familiar with... and that often gets in the way of progress (even if here it's only about better entertainment).

And the reward stuff is even got into Command and Conquer now... i mean you have to grind a number of MP games to get access to more advanced units in C&C4... luckily EA sucks at making c&c game...

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

The basic things is that everyone is different and not everyone follows the "same human formula" no matter how many psychologist may tell you. IF that was the case, we would be able to cure all the "mental sickness" out there, but alas, I don't see that going on.

Mental sickness, by definition, is a deviation from what one would call a normal human pattern... and it's not like they can just replace the part that's broken to one that meets the requirements for the "same human formula", so that's not a very good argument about being different.

And remember how you said that the formula works?! How is that not proof against people each being such a special little flower?!

Mar 18, 2010#82

Dave

So wait, because we enjoy it we're either not Human or weird in some way?

@Li3n said:
your kidding yourselves if you think doing the same thing over and over (aka grinding) is something any human enjoys on it's own

Because YOU don't that applies to all Humans? Dude, people do the same shit all the time! Step back and look at your life and tell me every day is different, new and exciting. You watch the same shows, play the same games, go to the same bars. You can hate grinding and some grinding I did hate - go here and kill X monsters. Yet when I'm mining or gathering I like it. I realize that there's really no inherent difference (locate node, mine until depleted) but for some reason I like doing the gathering stuff in MMOs. Always have, always will.

I hate mushrooms. Some people love them. I love escargot. A lot of people don't. Doesn't make anyone wrong or right, just different. The only way you can be wrong is to tell people they are wrong for believing as they do. So in this I think you are wrong.

Mar 18, 2010#83

@Li3n

Ii think i already mentioned that yeah, we all do repetitive stuff...

You should read more of the thread for some context methinks... preference in food has really little to do with repetitive tasks that make part of your brain lower it's functioning so you can do it better. (crap, all those bookmarked articles and it's never one i actually need afterwards...)

You can hate grinding and some grinding I did hate - go here and kill X monsters. Yet when I'm mining or gathering I like it. I realize that there's really no inherent difference (locate node, mine until depleted) but for some reason I like doing the gathering stuff in MMOs. Always have, always will.

Ah, an even better example... the difference is in what the "reward" is (and i don't mean the stuff you get in-game), and that's what makes one feel enjoyable while the other isn't.

My argument is that there are better ways to get the same "reward" without using the boring methodology... (i have no idea if i'm using the right words btw, 2nd language and all that).

Mar 18, 2010#84

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
Ii think i already mentioned that yeah, we all do repetitive stuff...

You should read more of the thread for some context methinks... preference in food has really little to do with repetitive tasks that make part of your brain lower it's functioning so you can do it better. (crap, all those bookmarked articles and it's never one i actually need afterwards...)

You can hate grinding and some grinding I did hate - go here and kill X monsters. Yet when I'm mining or gathering I like it. I realize that there's really no inherent difference (locate node, mine until depleted) but for some reason I like doing the gathering stuff in MMOs. Always have, always will.

Click to expand...

Ah, an even better example... the difference is in what the "reward" is (and i don't mean the stuff you get in-game), and that's what makes one feel enjoyable while the other isn't.

My argument is that there are better ways to get the same "reward" without using the boring methodology... (i have no idea if i'm using the right words btw, 2nd language and all that).

again, it is boring to you but not to others. Until the majority of the people consider it boring or discover new way of fun, the same formula will continue to be use over and over and over again cause it makes money.

The current WoW formula is working for them. They have enough "boring" tasks for everyone. Different type (mining, hunting X monster, raiding) same repetitive task but different flavor. It works for them and will continue to do so. Granted Blizz is trying to maek a good story too unlike some game like Ragnarok online which is pure grinding (like many KMMO - Korean) but companies STILL churn out those things cause well.... it still sells and make money.

the problem is that it takes a lot of money and risk to break the formula. Many new company can't take too much a risk to make things too innovative in case it failed. I think that is the main issue here. Back in the old days (20 years ago) graphic was simple and thus creating a game was more about stories and simple combat mechanics which may cost less than 100k per game to make (I don't know exact numbers)

Today, making a game is like a movie production. It is costing MILLIONS of dollars in development and that is a lot of money to invest. To make it innovative, takes even longer. A company can only take so long to make a game before they need to turn a profit.

Even looking at Blizzard - They churn out pretty good games and CAN afford long dev time, but look at their formula... the newest toy is Star Craft 2 which base of old formula of SC1 with new units and graphics.

Mar 19, 2010#85

@Li3n

Yeah, like i mentioned before, this isn't about it working...

And innovation takes more thinking then more money (plenty of innovative games cost less then the new game in the CoD series etc.), the reason why they're not doing it is because they don't know if it will sell, like they do with something that already did, so the risk is bigger.

Mar 24, 2010#86

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
Yeah, like i mentioned before, this isn't about it working...

And innovation takes more thinking then more money (plenty of innovative games cost less then the new game in the CoD series etc.), the reason why they're not doing it is because they don't know if it will sell, like they do with something that already did, so the risk is bigger.

That is pretty much the point. Back in the early days, it is easier to crank out "alternative" games cause it is cheaper.

Now of course a company could crank out games that is alternative and not "as pretty" in terms of graphics (that is where a bulk cost is IMO) but then it would get thrown away in the wayside by the critics. There are soooooooo many games (good and bad) that people don't have time to shell out 50-70$ bucks a game (collectors edition for extra stuff) and hating it and end up selling for 1/4 the price to gamestop or halfprice. (if you are lucky)

Mar 25, 2010#87

Chazwozel

Mar 25, 2010#88

Kitty Sinatra

Chaz's Poster said:
incredible NPC AI

I claim false advertising.

Mar 25, 2010#89

Chibibar

Gruebeard;360690][QUOTE=Chaz's Poster said:
incredible NPC AI

I claim false advertising.[/QUOTE]

Yea. Full PvP? not really. There is no place where you can truly do FFA PvP style

Plus it is pretty lop sided when you can't get the type of weapons other PvPer has access to (Tanks, Helo, Subs, Nuclear Warheads)

Mar 25, 2010#90

ScytheRexx

You know they say they don't have monthly fees, but then they get you with the micro-transactions. You want to have the best armor in the game? You have to pay real money for it! Otherwise how else you going to compete in PVP?

Actually, I heard the PVP is frowned on by the developers anyways, because someone I know said he stabbed and looted another player only to get his character locked for twenty years, and they didn't even allow him to cancel his account or log off!

Plus, do you know how hard it is to balance 56,400 archetypes? The balance must be a nightmare, I can just imagine what the message board looks like.

Mar 25, 2010#91

sixpackshaker

Chibibar;360731][QUOTE=Gruebeard;360690][QUOTE=Chaz's Poster said:
incredible NPC AI

I claim false advertising.[/QUOTE]

Yea. Full PvP? not really. There is no place where you can truly do FFA PvP style

Plus it is pretty lop sided when you can't get the type of weapons other PvPer has access to (Tanks, Helo, Subs, Nuclear Warheads)[/QUOTE]

It is going to take a lot of grinding, gold farming and skill ups to earn that epic flying mount.

Mar 25, 2010#92

Chibibar

ScytheRexx said:
You know they say they don't have monthly fees, but then they get you with the micro-transactions. You want to have the best armor in the game? You have to pay real money for it! Otherwise how else you going to compete in PVP?

Actually, I heard the PVP is frowned on by the developers anyways, because someone I know said he stabbed and looted another player only to get his character locked for twenty years, and they didn't even allow him to cancel his account or log off!

Plus, do you know how hard it is to balance 56,400 archetypes? The balance must be a nightmare, I can just imagine what the message board looks like.

Also there are botters!!!

I mean how can I compete with that? I can't into crafting at all without having to invest YEARS of study and equoment cost not to mention need to order some Cash Shop item call License to do these things.

Mar 25, 2010#93

SpecialKO

There's way too much real-money trading in that game, and the devs just don't care enough to make it a sound system.

Only a small handful of the players do it, but they created all these complicated item trading methods without sufficient oversight from the developers (some of whom they were close personal friends with anyway), and then when whole caboodle collapsed, everyone who bought into the game economy at all got screwed except for the guys who knew the devs.

Mar 25, 2010#94

Chibibar

TeKeo said:
There's way too much real-money trading in that game, and the devs just don't care enough to make it a sound system.

Only a small handful of the players do it, but they created all these complicated item trading methods without sufficient oversight from the developers (some of whom they were close personal friends with anyway), and then when whole caboodle collapsed, everyone who bought into the game economy at all got screwed except for the guys who knew the devs.

Also the small group of whiners are ruining the game for everyone else.

(gee.. sounds like many MMORPG isn't it?)

Mar 28, 2010#95

@Li3n

Chazwozel said:
.

someone quote this coz otherwise Chaz won't see it (there's also a response image if you care to)

Mar 29, 2010#96

Necronic

so just to bring this back to the interesting flamefest that was happening:

with regards to the whole Skinner Box thing. I think that's right on the money, for most MMOs. But that doesn't mean all MMOs have to be like that. Maybe you should look into EvE. It doesn't pander to players, its truly dynamic and multiplayer, and most impotantly, its sickeningly challenging.

In regards to the boredome aspect. Yet again, I think that's completely accurate when it comes to WoW clones. I also think its right on the money for JRPGs, Bioware RPGs, and most major commercial releases. There are exceptions, but most games are pretty fucking boring if you remove yourself from the carrot on the stick. The kinds of games that keep me interested are the ones that challenge me intellectually, like Dwarf Fortress or Galactic Civilizations or Sudoku. Games like that actually make me smarter. FPS games can be interesting as well as they keep my reaction time sharp, which is good for long term brain development. That said, FPSs are also almost entirely populated by children and their man-child counterparts, so its kind of a wash.

Before you close the books on MMOs, you should give EvE a try, but I'm guessing you don't have the attention span for it. Its generally just too hard for people. But I find it interesting that the people that complain how simplistic the reward structures are in MMOs are often the same people that are unwilling to try out a more complicated one.

You know, I'm somewhat interested in what you consider to be a good game, specifically.

Mar 29, 2010#97

KEM

Necronic said:
Before you close the books on MMOs, you should give EvE a try, but I'm guessing you don't have the attention span for it. Its generally just too hard for people. But I find it interesting that the people that complain how simplistic the reward structures are in MMOs are often the same people that are unwilling to try out a more complicated one.

The problem with 'complicated' is that for some people it has a tendency to drain all of the excitement/fun out of the game. In my experience the best games tend to be of the 'easy to learn, difficult to master' vein.

Mar 29, 2010#98

Chazwozel

KEM;362661][QUOTE=Necronic said:
Before you close the books on MMOs, you should give EvE a try, but I'm guessing you don't have the attention span for it. Its generally just too hard for people. But I find it interesting that the people that complain how simplistic the reward structures are in MMOs are often the same people that are unwilling to try out a more complicated one.

Mar 29, 2010#99

Chibibar

Chazwozel;362679][QUOTE=KEM;362661][QUOTE=Necronic said:
Before you close the books on MMOs, you should give EvE a try, but I'm guessing you don't have the attention span for it. Its generally just too hard for people. But I find it interesting that the people that complain how simplistic the reward structures are in MMOs are often the same people that are unwilling to try out a more complicated one.

L4D series (1 and 2) is pretty easy to learn (point and shoot) but difficult to master unless you play a lot and get use to it.

Mar 29, 2010#100

Kitty Sinatra

Chazwozel said:
Team Fortress 2

Ms Pacman

Mar 30, 2010#101

Necronic

Good call. I guess there are 2 sides of the same coin. Easy to learn, hard to master (like what yall mentioned), or hard to learn, hard to master (like 40k or EvE or Advanced Squad Leader). The easy to learn, hard to master games have a shorter 1 session play time for myself. I can't stay interested in one of those for more than an hour. But the other ones....man I could read ASL rules for days on end.

Mar 30, 2010#102

Hailey Knight

Necronic said:
Good call. I guess there are 2 sides of the same coin. Easy to learn, hard to master (like what yall mentioned), or hard to learn, hard to master (like 40k or EvE or Advanced Squad Leader). The easy to learn, hard to master games have a shorter 1 session play time for myself. I can't stay interested in one of those for more than an hour. But the other ones....man I could read ASL rules for days on end.

Age Sex Location?

Mar 31, 2010#103

KEM

Chibibar;362713][QUOTE=Chazwozel;362679][QUOTE=KEM;362661][QUOTE=Necronic said:
Before you close the books on MMOs, you should give EvE a try, but I'm guessing you don't have the attention span for it. Its generally just too hard for people. But I find it interesting that the people that complain how simplistic the reward structures are in MMOs are often the same people that are unwilling to try out a more complicated one.

L4D series (1 and 2) is pretty easy to learn (point and shoot) but difficult to master unless you play a lot and get use to it.[/QUOTE]Absolutely. I never felt like I was fighting the control scheme, which can happen sometimes even in a good game like Bad Company. What I also like about L4D is that the game actually adjusts to you. Me and a friend of mine would play a lot of off-line campaign and we got a little cocky after beating a few campaigns to try it in advanced difficulty. We promptly got out asses kicked. We went back down to Normal and realized that this was 'just right': not so easy as to be boring, but not so difficult as to be frustrating. That AI director is smarter than you might think...

---------- Post added at 11:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 PM ----------

escushion;363321][QUOTE=Necronic said:
Good call. I guess there are 2 sides of the same coin. Easy to learn, hard to master (like what yall mentioned), or hard to learn, hard to master (like 40k or EvE or Advanced Squad Leader). The easy to learn, hard to master games have a shorter 1 session play time for myself. I can't stay interested in one of those for more than an hour. But the other ones....man I could read ASL rules for days on end.

Age Sex Location?[/QUOTE]Advanced Squad Leader:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Squad_Leader

Mar 31, 2010#104

Necronic

KEM said:
Advanced Squad Leader:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Squad_Leader

basically this

Apr 1, 2010#105

@Li3n

Necronic said:
I also think its right on the money for JRPGs, Bioware RPGs, and most major commercial releases.

That depends, in some cases the grinding can be covered up with story (as in not having any battles that aren't part of the story progression) and variation in gameplay.

Necronic said:
Before you close the books on MMOs, you should give EvE a try, but I'm guessing you don't have the attention span for it. Its generally just too hard for people. But I find it interesting that the people that complain how simplistic the reward structures are in MMOs are often the same people that are unwilling to try out a more complicated one.

To tell you the truth i barely have the time to play regular games, let alone a MMO.

Necronic said:
You know, I'm somewhat interested in what you consider to be a good game, specifically.

To be honest i don't think there is any game out there that i wouldn't find a flaw in, i just give MMO's a harder time because everybody and their grandmother is playing WoW instead of anything else...

But right now i had a bunch of fun playing HoMM3 with some mates during downtime while visiting Belgium... which reminds me, i have to see if they want to continue it.

Apr 1, 2010#106

Necronic

That depends, in some cases the grinding can be covered up with story (as in not having any battles that aren't part of the story progression) and variation in gameplay.

Doesn't matter how much Nutella you spread on a shit sandwich. There's still shit in it.

To tell you the truth i barely have the time to play regular games, let alone a MMO.

Its true that MMOs can take a lot of time. Personally I don't think that's the case for EvE, but I'm sure some will disagree with me.

But right now i had a bunch of fun playing HoMM3 with some mates during downtime while visiting Belgium... which reminds me, i have to see if they want to continue it.

HOMM3 was the best of the series. Franchise just went downhill from there. More glam less AI and balance. Still though, its pretty much a baby strategy game. You should check out the Dwarf Fortress thread. From my perspective there are only a couple games that fit the definition of "hardcore" and if you don't have what it takes to play one of those, then most of your opinions on game design are null and void.

Apr 2, 2010#107

@Li3n

Necronic said:
That depends, in some cases the grinding can be covered up with story (as in not having any battles that aren't part of the story progression) and variation in gameplay.

Click to expand...

Doesn't matter how much Nutella you spread on a shit sandwich. There's still shit in it.

Put enough nutella on it and people won't be able to tell they're eating shit... it's how they do it in the food industry.

Necronic said:
HOMM3 was the best of the series. Franchise just went downhill from there. More glam less AI and balance. Still though, its pretty much a baby strategy game. You should check out the Dwarf Fortress thread.

Frankly i though that HoMM3 made everything too "samey" and lost something of the feeling HoMM2 had.

And 4 was fun and tried new things, too bad it was released way before it was finished (i had to put it's music volume at 0 so it won't crash after every small battle, and it still crashed after the big ones) and the balance was crap and it still hasn't been fixed.

From my perspective there are only a couple games that fit the definition of "hardcore" and if you don't have what it takes to play one of those, then most of your opinions on game design are null and void.

I for one prefer my games to be fun regardless of the difficulty instead of "hardcore"...

Apr 2, 2010#108

Necronic

@Li3n said:
I for one prefer my games to be fun regardless of the difficulty instead of "hardcore"...

So it being "fun" is more important than design, basically "fun" is a justification in and of itself?

Apr 2, 2010#109

sixpackshaker

Necronic;364963][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
I for one prefer my games to be fun regardless of the difficulty instead of "hardcore"...

So it being "fun" is more important than design, basically "fun" is a justification in and of itself?[/QUOTE]

Hence, the name "game" not "job"

Apr 2, 2010#110

Chibibar

sixpackshaker;364964][QUOTE=Necronic;364963][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
I for one prefer my games to be fun regardless of the difficulty instead of "hardcore"...

So it being "fun" is more important than design, basically "fun" is a justification in and of itself?[/QUOTE]

Hence, the name "game" not "job"[/QUOTE]

Heh, to each their own

I do like EvE. It is a lot of fun with different variables for players. You can do the following pretty much from the startup (not well, but it is open to you)

You can go mining (good old mining and grinding crowd)
You can go ratting (NPC pirate hunting - progressively harder when you go from 1.0 to 0.0 space)
you can go exploring - There are TONS of unique places to visit and such
You can go trading/hauling - you don't start off with much money, but you can start hauling stuff from place to place (space fedex) for players OR NPC

You can go PvP - I wouldn't recommended in early play, but it can be fun (suck if you lose your ship)

It is pretty open, but it does have its grind.

A good story can cover up the grind. I wouldn't say "shit sandwich + nutella" I am thinking of more of a hot dog. You have all edible parts (they are all edible in most cultures) but you can dress it to make a hot dog tasty and interesting.

Apr 2, 2010#111

sixpackshaker

Chibi, your description sounds fun. Nothing Necronic has mentioned sounds fun at all. It's all hardcore and shit, yo.

Apr 2, 2010#112

KEM

Chibibar;364981][QUOTE=sixpackshaker;364964][QUOTE=Necronic;364963][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
I for one prefer my games to be fun regardless of the difficulty instead of "hardcore"...

So it being "fun" is more important than design, basically "fun" is a justification in and of itself?[/QUOTE]

Hence, the name "game" not "job"[/QUOTE]

Heh, to each their own

[/quote]Well everyone has their own definition of 'fun'. We have to have some reason to do any particular activity, like we go to work to earn a paycheck. Now if we happen to enjoy our work, that's a bonus. At the end of the day, though the only reason to play any game is for fun. What that fun entails is entirely up to the individual. Some people may think that doing spreadsheets is fun, and more power to them.

I do like EvE. It is a lot of fun with different variables for players. You can do the following pretty much from the startup (not well, but it is open to you)

You can go mining (good old mining and grinding crowd)
You can go ratting (NPC pirate hunting - progressively harder when you go from 1.0 to 0.0 space)
you can go exploring - There are TONS of unique places to visit and such
You can go trading/hauling - you don't start off with much money, but you can start hauling stuff from place to place (space fedex) for players OR NPC
You can go PvP - I wouldn't recommended in early play, but it can be fun (suck if you lose your ship)

It is pretty open, but it does have its grind.

Any large game like that is going to have a variety of activities, and hopefully one of them will be of interest to someone. I tried EvE for two weeks and it never really grabbed me. I think the problem is that when I play games I tend to be more 'intuitive', and EvE is just too full of little details you have to micro-manage to be intuitive. For some people that is frickin' Nirvana, and as I said, more power to 'em.

A good story can cover up the grind. I wouldn't say "shit sandwich + nutella" I am thinking of more of a hot dog. You have all edible parts (they are all edible in most cultures) but you can dress it to make a hot dog tasty and interesting.

Lots of things can cover up a grind, but I think for an MMO the most important thing is honestly good company. Even the most long and tedious grind can be made not only bearable but actually fun if you do it with friends. That's the main reason I quit WoW to be honest was when my Guild effectively broke up there wasn't anyone I wanted to play the game with anymore. We didn't even have to be doing anything together in the game, just keeping in touch through guildchat was enough.

Apr 2, 2010#113

Necronic

Nah, my description was really just to get @lien to shoot himself in the foot. Way I see it, as soon as someone says that "its fun" is a reason in and of itself for playing a game, then they no longer have any right to criticize other games, since what is "fun" is entirely subjective. A lot of times people get all sorts of "I'm a serious critic of games" about why they think a certain game is bad, but when pressed the reason they play the games they do it isn't based on anything more than it being fun.

And there's nothing wrong with a game being fun, I mean, that's the end goal right? But anyone who wants to consider himself a game critic never gets to use that as a reason (at least, not on its own.) Its either or.

Apr 2, 2010#114

Bowielee

KEM said:
Lots of things can cover up a grind, but I think for an MMO the most important thing is honestly good company. Even the most long and tedious grind can be made not only bearable but actually fun if you do it with friends. That's the main reason I quit WoW to be honest was when my Guild effectively broke up there wasn't anyone I wanted to play the game with anymore. We didn't even have to be doing anything together in the game, just keeping in touch through guildchat was enough.

I fully agree with the fact that company can make a severely grinding game fun. City of Heroes/villains comes to mind. The only reason I loved that game was for my supergroup at the time. The game itself outside of the character creator is boring as all hell.

I just want to say that I love RPGs but the article is completely right about the fact that you grind to get better stuff and that's the carrot. It's been that way since the beginning. Grinding isn't in and of itself fun, but that doesn't mean that it isn't part of the fun of a game. My favorite FF is 8 and that's the most grindy of all of the FF games with the draw system.

Apr 2, 2010#115

KEM

Necronic said:
Nah, my description was really just to get @lien to shoot himself in the foot. Way I see it, as soon as someone says that "its fun" is a reason in and of itself for playing a game, then they no longer have any right to criticize other games, since what is "fun" is entirely subjective. A lot of times people get all sorts of "I'm a serious critic of games" about why they think a certain game is bad, but when pressed the reason they play the games they do it isn't based on anything more than it being fun.

And there's nothing wrong with a game being fun, I mean, that's the end goal right? But anyone who wants to consider himself a game critic never gets to use that as a reason (at least, not on its own.) Its either or.

The problem is that I don't think that really reflects on his comment at all. I think it has more to do with how you interact with the game, the extent to which you delve into the particular mechanics of the game. When he says he plays a game because 'it's fun', it merely means that he's playing it on a more broader level. Some people are able to just play a game without feeling the need to delve into the underlying mechanics of the game.

Obviously for people like yourself, playing a game means more than that, it means getting into the mechanics and finding out why things are happening. The kind of people who work out the percentages of bonuses for various talent specs in WoW, for example.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to criticize or compare games on a broad level, because at the end of the day any such criticism/comparison is subjective. No matter how much you delve into the 'hardcore' mechanics, since your estimation of the value/importance of those mechanics is just as subjective as @lien's more 'broader' view. It just means you can write many more paragraphs on the subject, but again more details doesn't make things automatically better, it just makes them more detailed.

Apr 2, 2010#116

Chibibar

heh. I have been saying that since first page

I think while individual games some people might find it fun, but when we boil it down to the "basics" the company will continue to produce stuff where you get the most people to play.

WoW is almost like a "benchmark" for MMORPG. At least when I say benchmark, I meat = profit/bottom line/ROI and stuff like that. Companies will invest millions of dollars to produce a game in hope to be the next WoW, Starcraft, Diablo, Team Fortress etc etc. To companies, it is all about how many copies/subscription they can make.

Now to us, it is more of a personal level. I love WoW and EvE, but if you look at a company's view (i.e. money) WoW has a WAY larger numbers and servers than EvE. So when a new company is going to make a MMORPG, they may follow WoW style or even Final Fantasy style (JMMO and KMMO) cause that is where the money is that.

The hard thing for consumers is that sometimes we want to play something other than "the next WoW clone" but that is a risky market for the company. Any company formed (that is not non-profit) is out to make profits and hopefully lots of it so some might stay "true to the formula like WoW"

The numbers don't lie. Now is it a fun game? to some of us it is a LOT of fun while others never gotten into it, but to the companies, it is a multi millions money making machine.

Apr 2, 2010#117

Necronic

Yeah, this argument is kind of all over the place, and I'm having a hard time with it. So here's where I see it.

Assumption: There are both subjective and non-subjective aspects of the quality of a media product.

How much of the true Quality of a product is defined by the enjoyment it brings to people? Does something being liked mean that it is good?

Does it matter if an entertainment product operates on a skinner box design?

Do MMOs perpetuate skinner box game design more than other games?

Is this a fair breakdown of the argument?

---------------------

My interest in games is trying to figure out what will be next decades Jagged Alliance or Fallout or Star Control or MOO or Quake/Half-Life. What is it about those games that keeps us coming back for more? Why is it that certain games survive forever in our minds and others don't? Some of those games weren't the most popular games on the market at the time, but they are the ones that are remembered.

My belief is that the underlying design of a game defines a non-subjective quality of the product that is timeless, and while the big hotshot game of the day may reap big sales and magazine covers, their quality is mainly defined by things that age and wear out like graphics or hype, or, as is most pertinent to this conversation, reward structures.

So, that's why I look at some of these games the way I do. I don't think @lien is looking at it in an even remotely analytical sense (speculation on my part). The Brittney Spears argument is actually quite ironic. Brittney Spears (the group), is technically exceptional, and most music critics don't argue against that. As far as the PoP/MJ/Madonna genre goes, that group is one of the most technically skilled out there. Here's where its ironic. Most people rail on Britney, not because of the actual quality of the music, but because they see her as a symbol of something they don't like. More often than not it is a different social group that they want to appear to be in rebellion against (generally just to get more status/comfort in their own social group).

And I think that's what a lot of the WoW hate boils down to. Its not a technical analysis of the game or its design, its personal. Its about defining themselves as being rebels against what's popular. So people regurgitate analyses that someone else did, all the while never actually taking on a mindset of a true critic (not that I am one myself).

The one thing, as a critic, you can't convince someone of, is whether or not they find something enjoyable. You just can't have that argument. You can't say "This movie could not have been funny because of this, this, this and this." or "this song won't make you bob your head because it lacks this, this and this".

Apr 3, 2010#118

@Li3n

Necronic;364963][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
I for one prefer my games to be fun regardless of the difficulty instead of "hardcore"...

So it being "fun" is more important than design, basically "fun" is a justification in and of itself?[/QUOTE]

No, i was saying that "complex" or "hard" =! "good".

But i already argued about stuff being fun because it's actually good vs being fun because of personal bias (like you enjoying a game because not everyone can play it aka "hardcore"), and that i consider one better then the other. Kinda like drooling because you smell food vs drooling because a red light is on. I understand the reason for both, but don't ask me to let you not acknowledge the difference. (see my older posts here)

Most people rail on Britney, not because of the actual quality of the music, but because they see her as a symbol of something they don't like.

Are you actually implying that Britney Spears music is better then Johnny Cash because it's more edited on a computer (it's more complex to make)?!

But i guess i don't actually argue that BS should not exist, and it's the undeserved level of popularity that makes one argue against her... kinda like no one would give a shit about Twilight if it was just a fanfic on the internet... but we'd still mock it as shitty if we came across it...

And I think that's what a lot of the WoW hate boils down to.

I think i already mentioned that i haven't played much WoW (i think it under 2 hours), mostly because from what i saw it differed little from other MMO's (streamlined as it is).

The one thing, as a critic, you can't convince someone of, is whether or not they find something enjoyable. You just can't have that argument. You can't say "This movie could not have been funny because of this, this, this and this." or "this song won't make you bob your head because it lacks this, this and this".

Kevin Smith, is that you?!

Apr 3, 2010#119

Chibibar

Necronic: I like your last post. I think we are heading somewhere with it (I agree with you)

Li3n: You know.... if you compare Britney Spears vs Johnny Cash.... I don't know. I don't know who is Johnny Cash (music wise) but like Necronic said, maybe because she is popular to a world level, some people will hate it or at least vocal about it. Do you know that there are people who actually HATE Elvis Presley and the Beatles?? yea it happen. I happen to love The Monkeys (I listen to their songs and even watch their shows, cried at their breakup) but my wife gives a meh to them.

But I think some of the hate could stem from personal preferences instead of technical as Necronic have said. Think about it. What if YOU (anyone really not just you li3n) love something with all your heart, you love it so much cause it is SOOOOO awesome and great, but the rest of the public is either oblivious or not even recognize the product (games, music, movies) but something that is publicly popular dwarfs it and you don't like it. That person is likely to dis the "popular stuff" cause "his/her stuff" is not as popular and thinks the world is a moron. I think that is what boils down to it.

We can argue taste all day long till we are blue in the face, but it is hard to argue that Britney Spears or WoW are NOT popular. I am not saying that Britney and WoW are the same level, I'm just using two item that are popular. I use to remember before WoW, Everquest was "the big dog" in terms of MMO and before that was MUDs on BBS or Legend of the Red Dragon Door games (anyone remember those? hehe) or the Original Never Winter Nights (SSL games) on AoL?

but these things are popular now because the general public like it, but alas, there are nitch market for different games like EvE. It is harder and more detail than WoW but it survive for over 5 years with 50k+ players and going strong for all these years. There are games like Team Fortress (not MMO but a game) that remains popular for over 10 years now?

The original article shows that there are elements that are use in games to keep people hook. If it is blatant carrots on the stick and not as engaging, people won't play. WoW seems to do pretty good in sugar coat the grind and make it popular. I know that many KMMO and JMMO are pure grinds (FFXI, Ragnarok Online etc etc) BUT those remain popular cause there are people who LOVE to play those games and will continue to due so.

Apr 3, 2010#120

Necronic

Are you actually implying that Britney Spears music is better then Johnny Cash because it's more edited on a computer (it's more complex to make)?!

Uhm, no. I never said anything about Johnny Cash. There is nothing mutually exclusive in this.

I think i already mentioned that i haven't played much WoW (i think it under 2 hours), mostly because from what i saw it differed little from other MMO's (streamlined as it is).

So.......your basing your entire argument off of stuff other people told you and what you filled in yourself, without ever really looking at the product? Yeah......

Apr 3, 2010#121

Chibibar

Necronic said:
Are you actually implying that Britney Spears music is better then Johnny Cash because it's more edited on a computer (it's more complex to make)?!

Click to expand...

Uhm, no. I never said anything about Johnny Cash. There is nothing mutually exclusive in this.

I think i already mentioned that i haven't played much WoW (i think it under 2 hours), mostly because from what i saw it differed little from other MMO's (streamlined as it is).

Click to expand...

So.......your basing your entire argument off of stuff other people told you and what you filled in yourself, without ever really looking at the product? Yeah......

well, critics does it in less than 5 hours

so maybe Li3n is trying to be one of those gaming critics

personally I play for about 2 years including raids (10 and 25 man raids) so I have some insights at least and all my characters have crafting (all crafts max out except jewelry making)

Apr 3, 2010#122

Necronic

I really didn't mean to bring EvE into this conversation. EvE and Wow are different enough products that any comparison between them is like, well its like comparing Johnny Cash and Britney Spears (see Scythe, I have learned since our last conversation.)

And yeah, you're right that a critic only plays 5 hours of a game, but I think most would acknowledge that 5 hours is barely enough time to review a normal game, and making blanket statements about the quality of an MMO is pretty much impossible with that much time. Of course, I want to be clear when I state that I actually agree with the original post and feel that WoW is a thinly veiled skinner box with only the most basic and haphazard attempts at quality design in it. It will definitely hold a place in the history books for how it managed to pull that large of a crowd, and moreover maintain them, but I doubt there will ever be any big nods for design.

Apr 3, 2010#123

Bowielee

The thing I don't get is how everybody is viewing this as a new concept. MMOs are far from the first type of games to use the skinner-box concept to sell games.

Apr 3, 2010#124

SpecialKO

Bowielee said:
The thing I don't get is how everybody is viewing this as a new concept. MMOs are far from the first type of games to use the skinner-box concept to sell games.

Apr 3, 2010#125

Chibibar

TeKeo;365419][QUOTE=Bowielee said:
The thing I don't get is how everybody is viewing this as a new concept. MMOs are far from the first type of games to use the skinner-box concept to sell games.

My thoughts exactly. The idea was old when the NES came out.

This discussion has moved in this direction occasionally as various folks have prodded it, but it should really be a discussion of acceptable degree and visibility, not its existence. MMOs like WoW make their reward structure the blatantly obvious centerpiece of their game, but video games as a whole revolve around inducing play and have since they've been around.[/QUOTE]

well, some of my post have stated this is pretty old concept even BEFORE games. It is the old carrot on the stick. Is it wrong? How else would you make game engaging? but if you do make the game engaging, aren't you using the skinner method anyways? there isn't really a way to NOT to do it.

Apr 3, 2010#126

SpecialKO

Chibibar said:
there isn't really a way to NOT to do it.

Apr 3, 2010#127

Chibibar

TeKeo;365429][QUOTE=Chibibar said:
there isn't really a way to NOT to do it.

Agreed. There's just different ways TO do it.

I sort of think of "fun" and "engagement" in games as intrinsically similar - sort of like if you took the space-time continuum and replace "space" and "time" with "fun" and "engagement". It's really all the same thing, just that different games move in different directions.[/QUOTE]

I guess the main "trick" would be making it fun with the grind. The main problem is that companies don't like to stray too far from the "what does work" to totally new stuff. It is a risky venture and people might not like it. It is a hit or miss with the crowd. It is a multi billion dollar industry and everyone wants a piece of that pie. If you are too innovative, you might just get left with the pie pan and with very little crumbs.

Apr 8, 2010#128

@Li3n

Necronic said:
Are you actually implying that Britney Spears music is better then Johnny Cash because it's more edited on a computer (it's more complex to make)?!

Click to expand...

Uhm, no. I never said anything about Johnny Cash. There is nothing mutually exclusive in this.

You said better then ...

... includes everything, so i can bring out whoever i want.

Necronic said:
I think i already mentioned that i haven't played much WoW (i think it under 2 hours), mostly because from what i saw it differed little from other MMO's (streamlined as it is).

Click to expand...

So.......your basing your entire argument off of stuff other people told you and what you filled in yourself, without ever really looking at the product? Yeah......

My argument was about MMO's in general, you guys started talking about WoW all the time...

And the stuff other people told me was mostly guys that where talking about liking the game... (and i already mentioned that i'm not saying it's all bad), and video evidence. I saw nothing that makes it in any way different then what one would expect from Blizzard, a regular MMO that's been streamlined.

---------- Post added at 08:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 AM ----------

Bowielee said:
The thing I don't get is how everybody is viewing this as a new concept. MMOs are far from the first type of games to use the skinner-box concept to sell games.

and it's always been boring...

Point: http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/why-is-a-game-boring-without--/1046760

Apr 8, 2010#129

Chibibar

@Li3n said:
[/COLOR]

Bowielee said:

The thing I don't get is how everybody is viewing this as a new concept. MMOs are far from the first type of games to use the skinner-box concept to sell games.

Click to expand...

and it's always been boring... to me!!

Point: http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/why-is-a-game-boring-without--/1046760

Fixed it for you

Apr 8, 2010#130

Necronic

You said better then ...

... includes everything, so i can bring out whoever i want.

really? where? (also it's "than", yeah I'm a douchebag)

The Brittney Spears argument is actually quite ironic. Brittney Spears (the group), is technically exceptional, and most music critics don't argue against that. As far as the PoP/MJ/Madonna genre goes, that group is one of the most technically skilled out there. Here's where its ironic. Most people rail on Britney, not because of the actual quality of the music, but because they see her as a symbol of something they don't like. More often than not it is a different social group that they want to appear to be in rebellion against (generally just to get more status/comfort in their own social group).

-------

My argument was about MMO's in general, you guys started talking about WoW all the time...

Fair enough, but WoW is the archetype for most major MMOs so its kind of transitive.

and it's always been boring...

Since we aren't just talking about WoW here, let me bring up the biggest crackhead skinner box game ever made, which is not surprisingly the inspiration for WoW. Diablo. That game is designed around nothing other than clicking as much as you can until you get a reward. And I dunno, that's not boring to me.

However when that design is applied to a persistent game world like WoW, that does become boring and problematic to me. To be honest I can't figure out why though. Where's the line where Skinner systems stop working for certain people, and why? Now I'm just brainstorming. Maybe its because an MMO is meant to be a community game, and Skinner systems don't synergize as well with a community game as well as other games, like Diablo which (while multiplayer) is more individualistic. Or it could be that the amount of times you have to press the button in WoW is too large for the dwindling returns on getting the same rewards over and over agian, whereas in Diablo you fly through levels.

hm. Maybe the problem is that the reward structure in WoW is designed more for a game like Diablo, and too many of the fundamentals of the system are different for the reward structure to maintain sway over lots of people. Round peg square hole. It still works, because meth cooked in an outhouse will still get someone hooked, even if the stuff you get from Phizer is much higher quality.

What are the basic rewards you get in WoW and/or Diablo?

Expanded Skills/Levels
New content (at the expense of old content)
More access to community (WoW only)
Items (duh)
Mounts! (WoW only)

Can yall think of others? I'm trying to analytically break down the reward structure in WoW to see why some people like myself and @lien react to it so much differently than others.

In terms of the major gameplay differences between WoW and Diablo you have

Time invested per reward is higher in WoW
Community is far more persistant/pervaisve/important in WoW
Variety of rewards is much higher in WoW
World is much larger in WoW
More content in WoW, but you only ever see it once (as opposed to nightmare/hell diffs in Diablo)
Each combat takes longer, and soloing is more difficult in WoW
Once at Level Cap, previous rewards are invalidated when expansion hits/level cap is raised in WoW (personal least favorite)
WoW has structured PvP whereas Diablo (generally) doesn't.

---------

I'm thinking the issue is that the reward structure in WoW looses its ability to "Skinnerize" some players fairly quickly as the time invested increases while the reward quantity/quality decreases, the only exception is access to the community, which only really becomes possible at End Game levels, so is a MASSIVE investment of time for that final reward.

hrm.

Apr 8, 2010#131

Chibibar

In single player game, the skinner system does work, but probably get boring for some people in a long while. Single Player RPG, what is the carrot? items, level, cooler powers, and, achievements.

Diablo was a simple version of this. You just play the same 4 areas over and over and over again to get that rare "gold" item drop. raise levels, get powers, repeat.

MMO does add another factor into this. People. AI can only do so much with current technology. Live Players can change the dynamic of a game. Can you imagine playing TF2 with a team of live players VS AI? It can get boring REAL quick. but PvP does bring a nice change of pace and "unexpected" variable into a game.

The problem with current game system (any system) in order to keep a person keep pressing that control button, mouse button, or analog stick button is "loot" the full immersion experience doesn't exist yet. Wii came out with the Wii-mote and it did expand into non-gamers' home.

The new Natal and PS3 technology might bring player to experience MORE of the game rather than the carrot (i.e. levels or powers)

The Holodeck type RPG would change the world of gaming and it will be fun to play for the story than just "getting the next level"

Apr 8, 2010#132

Necronic

Hm. Immersion. I think defining that term is important before we move on, because I think we have different definitions. For me Immersion is about the completeness and complexity of the world I am presented with, which is something I think WoW and its clones fails tremendously at. I think your concept of immersion has to do with sensory input (visual/audio/control). Take for instance Dwarf Fortress. I think that is one of the most highly immersive games around, and its at best a tiled game, at worst its all ASCII.

Personally I don't think graphics/sound are very important in a game, as I fill in the blanks with my imagination, and with controls anything becomes intuitive if you use it enough. On the other side of things, however, people are asked to fill in the lack of complexity with their imagination. I remember when I first played Star Craft and saw the localized damage on the wireframe models and thought "OMFG that's awesome!" until I realized that there was no localized damage, that it was just something they were pretending to have.

With regards to the PvP I generally don't see much interesting in it as there is no penalty in it, only carrots, which doesn't feel right. I think that's why I started playing Diablo in "Hardcore" mode (that's actually what its called) after I beat it a couple of times, because I didn't feel that the rewards had as much interest to me unless there was also punishment. (FYI hardcore mode is where when you die your character is deleted.)

Maybe its like recieving praise from someone. If they are always handing out praise you begin to value it less and less over time, but if someone is generally highly critical then when you do recieve praise it is worth much much more. Think Simon Cowell. In game terms think of Ninja Gaiden. That game is the most brutally punishing game out there, but if you do well at it you feel an incredible sense of accomplishment unlike anything you would feel playing an easier game.

Apr 8, 2010#133

KEM

Necronic said:
Hm. Immersion. I think defining that term is important before we move on, because I think we have different definitions. For me Immersion is about the completeness and complexity of the world I am presented with, which is something I think WoW and its clones fails tremendously at. I think your concept of immersion has to do with sensory input (visual/audio/control). Take for instance Dwarf Fortress. I think that is one of the most highly immersive games around, and its at best a tiled game, at worst its all ASCII.

Apr 8, 2010#134

Chibibar

Immersion can be different aspect of the game. You can have good story, good gameplay, good graphics, good sound, and any other factor. The problem with "not cool" graphic is that people who really appreciate older games (like me) are very small crowd. The company wants to cater to as many people as possible so will have to go with the "cool graphics"

Storyline is another one. Necro might think that WoW is not "completeness or complex" but if you read all the stories and game, it is pretty detail. There are people who even make fanfic off it.

Gameplay - this is probably one of the hardest thing IMO. Control scheme is hard to "get away" from your traditional control. Also if you want to "lure" players from one system (like WoW) to yours, your control have to be similar and intuitive. Complex control system can really scare away new players.

Apr 8, 2010#135

KEM

Chibibar said:
In single player game, the skinner system does work, but probably get boring for some people in a long while. Single Player RPG, what is the carrot? items, level, cooler powers, and, achievements.

There's one important aspect you leave out here and that is story. Story can simply be the main story or quest-line, but also the other storylines that are often present (the side-quests, if you will) and honestly to the characters and evironment (is this a place I want to explore/hang out in). Story can be as much a motivating factor to keep people playing as much as anything else.

Diablo was a simple version of this. You just play the same 4 areas over and over and over again to get that rare "gold" item drop. raise levels, get powers, repeat.

MMO does add another factor into this. People. AI can only do so much with current technology. Live Players can change the dynamic of a game. Can you imagine playing TF2 with a team of live players VS AI? It can get boring REAL quick. but PvP does bring a nice change of pace and "unexpected" variable into a game.

MMO's also add an environment to interact in as well as a narrative to share, at least a good MMO does. This goes well beyond PvP. Games like L4D show that players playing co-operatively against the game can be fun.

The problem with current game system (any system) in order to keep a person keep pressing that control button, mouse button, or analog stick button is "loot" the full immersion experience doesn't exist yet. Wii came out with the Wii-mote and it did expand into non-gamers' home.

The new Natal and PS3 technology might bring player to experience MORE of the game rather than the carrot (i.e. levels or powers)

The Holodeck type RPG would change the world of gaming and it will be fun to play for the story than just "getting the next level"

The extent to which things like Natal will have an effect on immersion will have more to do with removing the barrier of the control scheme between the player and the world. I don't think they will have any real effect beyond that.

The biggest effect on immersion will continue to be the quality of the world/environment that we're being asked to enter: is it a place I want to be/explore/experience/share?

Apr 10, 2010#136

Necronic

KEM;368008][QUOTE=Necronic said:
Hm. Immersion. I think defining that term is important before we move on, because I think we have different definitions. For me Immersion is about the completeness and complexity of the world I am presented with, which is something I think WoW and its clones fails tremendously at. I think your concept of immersion has to do with sensory input (visual/audio/control). Take for instance Dwarf Fortress. I think that is one of the most highly immersive games around, and its at best a tiled game, at worst its all ASCII.

OK, there are a number of faults to be found in WoW, but a lack of "completeness and complexity of the world" is absolutely not one of them. While the world does not physically change as you play through the game, due to the Massively Multi-player aspect of the game, they still manage to impart a significant amount of story detail as you level up. Not to mention the vast reams of background that is available through the game and through books and comics.[/QUOTE]

Lore in WoW requires massive suspension of disbelief. Lvl 40 you kill a god. Lvl 60 you kill another god. Lvl whatever you kill another god. Then you kill a lvl 80 orc grunt. Who is stronger than all of those gods you killed. The strength of your enemies according to lore has no correlation to the real strength of them in game. Requiring that suspension of disbelief for the world to work isn't what I would call complete or complex, that's exactly what I was talking about with the Starcraft thing.

Apr 10, 2010#137

ScytheRexx

Necronic said:
Lore in WoW requires massive suspension of disbelief. Lvl 40 you kill a god. Lvl 60 you kill another god. Lvl whatever you kill another god. Then you kill a lvl 80 orc grunt. Who is stronger than all of those gods you killed. The strength of your enemies according to lore has no correlation to the real strength of them in game. Requiring that suspension of disbelief for the world to work isn't what I would call complete or complex, that's exactly what I was talking about with the Starcraft thing.

Apr 10, 2010#138

Necronic

ScytheRexx;368992][QUOTE=Necronic said:
Lore in WoW requires massive suspension of disbelief. Lvl 40 you kill a god. Lvl 60 you kill another god. Lvl whatever you kill another god. Then you kill a lvl 80 orc grunt. Who is stronger than all of those gods you killed. The strength of your enemies according to lore has no correlation to the real strength of them in game. Requiring that suspension of disbelief for the world to work isn't what I would call complete or complex, that's exactly what I was talking about with the Starcraft thing.

Not sure what you are talking about Necronic. The lowest level you kill a "God" like entity is 60, and even those are not really "Gods" in the unlimited, omnipotent sense. Only one "God" exists in WarCraft, Elune, while all the other forces are often spirits, demi-gods, or demons, even the Titans are not considered "Gods", they are called Eternals, but a few people worship them like "Gods".

Also, you don't really have to suspend much disbelief. The quests and "levels" are seen as the life of a character more then the general actual "strength" of your character as some now god-like super being. Not many of us think of fantasy MMOs like DBZ.[/QUOTE]

Ah, you're right. I could have sworn Ragnaros and that Stone Mother thing (can't remember the name. Is in that lvl 40-ish dungeon.) C'thun is a god though, and apparently weaker than lvl 75 elites. I'm not sure I understand the second part of your statement. If the in game strength of your character isn't considered the strength of your character, that seems like the suspension of disbelief thing again. And also, my Tauren was definitely over 5000. hp.

Apr 10, 2010#139

Shegokigo

Whether you kill an NPC in game or not, does not affect the lore at all. EX: Nefarion is still alive in Cata, C'Thun is still alive and in the Emerald Dream. Etc.

Apr 10, 2010#140

SpecialKO

Shegokigo said:
Whether you kill an NPC in game or not, does not affect the lore at all. EX: Nefarion is still alive in Cata, C'Thun is still alive and in the Emerald Dream. Etc.

Well, yes and no. C'Thun's body was officially destroyed via a quest in AQ40 in classic, but will be resurrected in the Cata lore by the leader of the Twilight Hammer who is using his own body as a nesting ground for C'Thun's spirit. Similarly, Nefarion was confirmed by word of God to be dead when AQ opened, and Blizz has simply not explained how his re-appearance will be achieved in Cata.

It would be more accurate to say that it doesn't affect the gameplay at all.

Apr 10, 2010#141

Necronic

My argument didn't have to do with killing them. Should have made that clear. I realize that is one item there simply isn't an easy way to avoid. My argument was that the design of the game makes little sense with regard to lore. Why is it that an elite orc grunt, of which there are 100s if not thousands, is stronger than a God?

Apr 10, 2010#142

ScytheRexx

Necronic said:
Ah, you're right. I could have sworn Ragnaros and that Stone Mother thing (can't remember the name. Is in that lvl 40-ish dungeon.) C'thun is a god though, and apparently weaker than lvl 75 elites. I'm not sure I understand the second part of your statement. If the in game strength of your character isn't considered the strength of your character, that seems like the suspension of disbelief thing again. And also, my Tauren was definitely over 5000. hp.

Ragnaros is one of the Elemental Lords. He is the equivalent of a elemental version of the Dragon Aspects. The "Stone Mother" you are thinking of is Theradras, and she is not called the Stone Mother, as that is her own mother, Therazane, the Elemental Lord of Earth.

C'Thun is not a "God" in the traditional sense, like I mentioned before. He is one of the Old Gods, a former slain one that while powerful, was weak from his original "death". Also, WOTLK has revealed that while the Old Gods are powerful, they are less gods and more an extra-terrestrial parasite. They came after the Titan's first seeded Azeroth, and infested themselves into the core of the planet. When the Titan's returned and killed on of them (the one in Darkshore), they learned that the bond with the planet was now unbreakable, and killing the rest of them would cause Azeroth to be destroyed. Once again, the only real "God" in WarCraft is Elune, who is incorporeal and exists in a plane that no mortal creature can dwell.

As for the last statement, 5000 HP is just a number. The numbers are designed as a way to give one a goal and allow a sort of narrative flow, a sort of character history. You start out as this green guy with a few numbers, barely know what you are doing. You fight local threats, learning, before moving out into the world and fighting darker threats. At no point do we think that I have "powered-up!" like Goku in DBZ and can now defeat Cell without any effort. This is why RPers call levels "seasons", because they represent time and experience more then "raw power". Some games go the extra mile to represent this, like how Oblivion scales every monster in the game to your level, but that is not required to understand that levels are part of the flow of the game's story. In the end a lot of it is perception, but it is not the fault of the game you lose your suspension of belief, you just have a different perception.

Apr 10, 2010#143

Allen, who is Quiet

Necronic said:
My argument didn't have to do with killing them. Should have made that clear. I realize that is one item there simply isn't an easy way to avoid. My argument was that the design of the game makes little sense with regard to lore. Why is it that an elite orc grunt, of which there are 100s if not thousands, is stronger than a God?

The presence of hundreds of level 75 orc grunts who are stronger than a god is fridge logic.

It really doesn't make sense. It doesn't really have to though. A lot of games are going to have weird oddities like that. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad game. In an RPG, why is everything priced the same no matter where I go? In a side scrolling beat 'em up, why is somebody storing a sword in an oil drum?

If you're going to call a game on fridge logic in order to say that it isn't immersive, I think you're kind of picking at nits. Especially when you consider that these kinds of "immersion breaking" things are only noticed and thought about after you're done being immersed in the game.

Apr 11, 2010#144

Hailey Knight

Thanks, you posted TVTropes... and I was supposed to start doing work half an hour ago.

Apr 12, 2010#145

@Li3n

Necronic said:
You said better then ...

... includes everything, so i can bring out whoever i want.

Click to expand...

really? where? (also it's "than", yeah I'm a douchebag)

The Brittney Spears argument is actually quite ironic. Brittney Spears (the group), is technically exceptional, and most music critics don't argue against that. As far as the PoP/MJ/Madonna genre goes, that group is one of the most technically skilled out there. Here's where its ironic. Most people rail on Britney, not because of the actual quality of the music, but because they see her as a symbol of something they don't like. More often than not it is a different social group that they want to appear to be in rebellion against (generally just to get more status/comfort in their own social group).

Click to expand...

Unless the definition of exceptional has changed, right there at the start.

Necronic said:
My argument was about MMO's in general, you guys started talking about WoW all the time...

Click to expand...

Fair enough, but WoW is the archetype for most major MMOs so its kind of transitive.

Which is why i said nothing until you accused me of not knowing it...

Necronic said:
Since we aren't just talking about WoW here, let me bring up the biggest crackhead skinner box game ever made, which is not surprisingly the inspiration for WoW. Diablo. That game is designed around nothing other than clicking as much as you can until you get a reward. And I dunno, that's not boring to me.

hrm.

That's why i stopped playing Diablo regularly once my friends started doing it "for real" and it all became about getting items (patch 1.10 didn't help much).

Can yall think of others? I'm trying to analytically break down the reward structure in WoW to see why some people like myself and @lien react to it so much differently than others.

Actually i don't think we do, i'm pretty sure that if we spend enough time in the game we'd eventually sucumb, the only difference is probably how fast it happens.

Chibibar;367589][QUOTE=@Li3n said:
[/COLOR]

Bowielee said:

The thing I don't get is how everybody is viewing this as a new concept. MMOs are far from the first type of games to use the skinner-box concept to sell games.

Click to expand...

and it's always been boring... to me!!

Point: http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/why-is-a-game-boring-without--/1046760

Fixed it for you
[/QUOTE]

Thanks, by saying that you don't find the skinner box boring you're furthering my point, as the experiment is as objective proof as well get that the right reward will make something that's boring seem fun.

My opinion is that we should require more, not that you should stop having fun... any vitriol is more the result of me having fun, the internet way.

And always remember:

Apr 15, 2010#146

Necronic

@Li3n;369354][QUOTE=Necronic said:
You said better then ...

... includes everything, so i can bring out whoever i want.

Click to expand...

really? where? (also it's "than", yeah I'm a douchebag)

The Brittney Spears argument is actually quite ironic. Brittney Spears (the group), is technically exceptional, and most music critics don't argue against that. As far as the PoP/MJ/Madonna genre goes, that group is one of the most technically skilled out there. Here's where its ironic. Most people rail on Britney, not because of the actual quality of the music, but because they see her as a symbol of something they don't like. More often than not it is a different social group that they want to appear to be in rebellion against (generally just to get more status/comfort in their own social group).

Click to expand...

Unless the definition of exceptional has changed, right there at the start.
[/QUOTE]

Dictionary said:
1.forming an exception or rare instance; unusual; extraordinary: The warm weather was exceptional for January.
2.unusually excellent; superior: an exceptional violinist.
3.Education. (of a child)
a.being intellectually gifted.
b.being physically or esp. mentally handicapped to an extent that special schooling is required.

another dictionary said:
1. Being an exception; uncommon.
2. Well above average; extraordinary: an exceptional memory. See Usage Note at exceptionable.
3. Deviating widely from a norm, as of physical or mental ability: special educational provisions for exceptional children.

[/quote]

yet another dictionary said:
adj 1: far beyond what is usual in magnitude or degree; "a night
of exceeding darkness"; "an exceptional memory";
"olympian efforts to save the city from bankruptcy"; "the
young Mozart's prodigious talents" [syn: exceeding,
exceptional, olympian, prodigious, surpassing]
2: surpassing what is common or usual or expected; "he paid
especial attention to her"; "exceptional kindness"; "a matter
of particular and unusual importance"; "a special occasion";
"a special reason to confide in her"; "what's so special
about the year 2000?" [syn: especial(a), exceptional,
particular(a), special]
3: deviating widely from a norm of physical or mental ability;
used especially of children below normal in intelligence;
"special educational provisions for exceptional children"

I don't see anywhere in those definitions where it is a singular adjective. Who the fuck even uses exceptional like that? It does not mean "The Best", and it never has. It generally means "Uncommonly good". However, you did help me figure out how exceptional can be applied to you, so thanks for that.

Apr 19, 2010#147

@Li3n

Necronic said:
Dictionary said:

1.forming an exception or rare instance; unusual; extraordinary: The warm weather was exceptional for January.
2.unusually excellent; superior: an exceptional violinist.
3.Education. (of a child)
a.being intellectually gifted.
b.being physically or esp. mentally handicapped to an extent that special schooling is required.

Click to expand...

I don't see anywhere in those definitions where it is a singular adjective. Who the fuck even uses exceptional like that? It does not mean "The Best", and it never has. It generally means "Uncommonly good". However, you did help me figure out how exceptional can be applied to you, so thanks for that.

Care to check again?! (and you might want to check out the difference between better and best).

Sure, you could argue that using Johnny Cash was unfair, but fuck you buddy, that's how the world works... you give me an opening i hit you in the nuts.

Apr 19, 2010#148

Necronic

Not in the slightest. Lets recap the whole argument.

Me: "Brittney spears is technically exceptional"

you: "Are you actually implying that Britney Spears music is better than Johnny Cash"

Me: "I never said that"

You: "You said Exceptional! That means she is betterthan everyone else."

Me: "That's not what the definition of exceptional means."

You: "Yes it is! See, I bolded SUPERIOR in there, and we all know what that means"

--------

Let me recap another way.

You think that something being exceptional means that its better than every other comparable item? That is not the case. In this situation, music, there are hundreds if not thousands of artists who could be considered exceptional/superior. Why? Because there are millions if not billions of artists who are not.

Nowhere in that is there any implication that Johnny Cash is inferior to Brittney Spears.

Apr 19, 2010#149

Dave

Necronic said:
Nowhere in that is there any implication that Johnny Cash is inferior to Brittney Spears.

Unless you are comparing tits.

Apr 19, 2010#150

ElJuski

oh god this thread amuses me ever so

Apr 19, 2010#151

GasBandit

Man... Warcraft plot canon has just gotten so utterly batshit insane. I liked it better when it was just "they're the enemy! KILL THEM!"

Apr 19, 2010#152

Chibibar

Necronic said:
Not in the slightest. Lets recap the whole argument.

Me: "Brittney spears is technically exceptional"

you: "Are you actually implying that Britney Spears music is better than Johnny Cash"

Me: "I never said that"

You: "You said Exceptional! That means she is betterthan everyone else."

Me: "That's not what the definition of exceptional means."

You: "Yes it is! See, I bolded SUPERIOR in there, and we all know what that means"

--------

Let me recap another way.

You think that something being exceptional means that its better than every other comparable item? That is not the case. In this situation, music, there are hundreds if not thousands of artists who could be considered exceptional/superior. Why? Because there are millions if not billions of artists who are not.

Nowhere in that is there any implication that Johnny Cash is inferior to Brittney Spears.

heh. I think the confusion came when Britney Spears' music was posted and Li3n post about Johnny Cash (I'm too lazy to go back) but kinda spiral from that.

Apr 20, 2010#153

@Li3n

Necronic said:
Not in the slightest. Lets recap the whole argument.

Me: "Brittney spears is technically exceptional"

you: "Are you actually implying that Britney Spears music is better than Johnny Cash"

Me: "I never said that"

You: "You said Exceptional! That means she is better than everyone else."

Me: "That's not what the definition of exceptional means."

You: "Yes it is! See, I bolded SUPERIOR in there, and we all know what that means"

--------

Let me recap another way.

You think that something being exceptional means that its better than every other comparable item? That is not the case. In this situation, music, there are hundreds if not thousands of artists who could be considered exceptional/superior. Why? Because there are millions if not billions of artists who are not.

Nowhere in that is there any implication that Johnny Cash is inferior to Brittney Spears.

You left who she's better then an open question... if you just meant the local drunk singing while crawling back home you should have made it clear. As you did not i feel fully justified in bringing out Johnny Cash to trash your argument...

Forums