O
Oddbot
Good luck sir. Even realizing your problem is a big deal. I know people who will probably never even get that far. :\
Your Necromancer has a problem
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I wish you the best of luck. As a recovering alcoholic myself, I know how hard it can be. It took a night in jail and almost losing my job to make me wake up and face my problem.
As to AA, it would never work for me because I can't relinquish my personal responsibility, but for some people, that's the only way they can overcome it. If that's what they need to do to get sober, more power to them.
Every person has a different way of dealing with things.
---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------
Oh, and BTW, I'm 3 years sober this June.
As to AA, it would never work for me because I can't relinquish my personal responsibility, but for some people, that's the only way they can overcome it. If that's what they need to do to get sober, more power to them.
Every person has a different way of dealing with things.
---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------
Oh, and BTW, I'm 3 years sober this June.
Shit, I had missed this thread.
My maternal grandparents had 6 children. 4 of them became alcoholics. 1 of them died because of it. Thankfully my mom was one of the 2 that dodged the bullet, but that doesn't mean alcoholism isn't something that has surrounded me my entire life. My parents were scared shitless when I got to a drinking age because they're, understandably, worried about genetic tendencies and what not.
My uncle's death hit us all very hard, first funeral I've ever been to (4 grandparents still alive), but it was sadly not a surprise to anyone. My uncle had been on a self destructive path for years, bouncing in and out of rehab.
All I'm saying is... I've been around this. I know how fucking hard it is. And you're one of my favorite online people, dude, so if you ever feel like you need to talk or... just vent at someone, feel free to PM or mail or whatever me, alright? I'm serious dude, this is not the mexican being nice just for politeness sake, I 100% truly mean it. I'd be honored, even.
Hang tough dude, you're not alone.
My maternal grandparents had 6 children. 4 of them became alcoholics. 1 of them died because of it. Thankfully my mom was one of the 2 that dodged the bullet, but that doesn't mean alcoholism isn't something that has surrounded me my entire life. My parents were scared shitless when I got to a drinking age because they're, understandably, worried about genetic tendencies and what not.
My uncle's death hit us all very hard, first funeral I've ever been to (4 grandparents still alive), but it was sadly not a surprise to anyone. My uncle had been on a self destructive path for years, bouncing in and out of rehab.
All I'm saying is... I've been around this. I know how fucking hard it is. And you're one of my favorite online people, dude, so if you ever feel like you need to talk or... just vent at someone, feel free to PM or mail or whatever me, alright? I'm serious dude, this is not the mexican being nice just for politeness sake, I 100% truly mean it. I'd be honored, even.
Hang tough dude, you're not alone.
Good luck, buddy. Not letting a substance control you is a tricky thing. I hope it works out. My dad got out from under cigarettes and alcohol. It can be a rough road, but it's worth it.
I thank you all for your support and apologize for it taking me so long to come back and say so.
I'm doing better right now. My first day when I made this post, I wasn't doing well. I'm man enough to admit to you now I spent most of it in tears. It may sound silly but at that time I was coping with the loss of not just what I viewed as my best friend, but also such a major change to my life. Alcohol has literally become such a pivotal point, such a major thing that to convince myself that I must now live without it has been no easy task.
And it's still not. I find myself constantly wishing, even planning for a drink before I catch myself and put myself back on the path.
I did go to an AA meeting the other day. It did make it easier for me to know that I wasn't the only one with this problem. Logically we always know we aren't the only ones, but to sit and listen to others actually tell the stories of the battles they had to face helps give me confidence. As well as knowing I'm not the only one on this board. And I can't thank all of you enough for your support and encouraging words. I can't be sure that the AA route is quite right for me, I'm not the religious type, but when it's needed I'm glad to know it's there as well as those who are here.
Thank you, again.
I'm doing better right now. My first day when I made this post, I wasn't doing well. I'm man enough to admit to you now I spent most of it in tears. It may sound silly but at that time I was coping with the loss of not just what I viewed as my best friend, but also such a major change to my life. Alcohol has literally become such a pivotal point, such a major thing that to convince myself that I must now live without it has been no easy task.
And it's still not. I find myself constantly wishing, even planning for a drink before I catch myself and put myself back on the path.
I did go to an AA meeting the other day. It did make it easier for me to know that I wasn't the only one with this problem. Logically we always know we aren't the only ones, but to sit and listen to others actually tell the stories of the battles they had to face helps give me confidence. As well as knowing I'm not the only one on this board. And I can't thank all of you enough for your support and encouraging words. I can't be sure that the AA route is quite right for me, I'm not the religious type, but when it's needed I'm glad to know it's there as well as those who are here.
Thank you, again.
M
makare
AA does not have to be religious, unless you are. When they say higher power or god they arent really talking in a religious sense, unless the person individually believes in that. The higher power is just what you draw support from so like your friends can be your higher power or your feeling of responsibility to mankind or a rock you found in the yard. Whatever makes you feel supported.
Although AA is explicitly and intentionally non denominational, and accepts that every one needs to have their own interpretation of "a higher power", the fact remains the AA is very close to a Christian organization. Hell, the Supreme Court recently ruled that courts could no longer mandate that people participate in meetings as this constitutes a violation of the separation between church and state.
This was part of the problem for my uncle hating AA... he was a staunch atheist and any mention of a "higher power" sent him running. It's hard for us who have created our entire personalities devoid of "something out there, a higher power" to suddenly be directed to hold on to one. This is why AA is tricky. I'm not saying it sucks, it certainly has helped my other two uncles, but it's.. tricky. Tricky business.
This was part of the problem for my uncle hating AA... he was a staunch atheist and any mention of a "higher power" sent him running. It's hard for us who have created our entire personalities devoid of "something out there, a higher power" to suddenly be directed to hold on to one. This is why AA is tricky. I'm not saying it sucks, it certainly has helped my other two uncles, but it's.. tricky. Tricky business.
M
makare
In my opinion the bitching about the "religious" nature of AA stems from not understanding it and being sent into a tizzy by simple word association.
D
Dusty668
Well, c'mon,"Thread Necromancer" like durrr, that's your nature.
I understand it... they have taken all the necessary measures to be secular, non-denominational and completely welcoming of all faiths. That still doesn't mean they're not using a very faith-centric approach. They ask you to trust and submit yourself to a non-specific "higher power". The problem is that no matter what you choose to think this "higher power" is, you're still relying on something "out there", something outside yourself. That's what doesn't sit well with many, my passed uncle included.
It's relinquishing your own responsibility, in some ways.
I'm not trying to argue or start something here, I KNOW first hand that AA can be very helpful. I'm just pointing out why it can be tricky for the non-believers. And not just because they "don't understand it".
M
makare
I suppose as a spiritual person I guess I don't understand how someone can't rely on ANYTHING outside of themselves, spiritual or not, especially when asking for help for a problem. Everyone is different I guess.
That's my point.. as a NON spiritual person I find it incredibly... aggravating, for lack of a better word... to HAVE to rely on something. Especially if it's a "higher power" sort of something. I like how the universe works with nothing but logic and science. I LOVE how the universe works with nothing but logic and science, it never ceases to awe and amaze me. Deviating from that would be impossible for me. THAT'S why AA can be tricky for people like me and, I'm pretty sure, Necro.
It can still work wonders as a support net, of course, which is where I think the real benefits of AA lie. Having a good sponsor can be a HUGE tool against alcoholism. HUGE. Plus talking and listening to others... that's really a good mechanism of coping and that I understand. If you can benefit from these, Shaun (Shawn? Shane? Sean? I can never remember how you spell your name, dammit) without having conflict with the "higher power" stuff, go for it man. Seriously.
It can still work wonders as a support net, of course, which is where I think the real benefits of AA lie. Having a good sponsor can be a HUGE tool against alcoholism. HUGE. Plus talking and listening to others... that's really a good mechanism of coping and that I understand. If you can benefit from these, Shaun (Shawn? Shane? Sean? I can never remember how you spell your name, dammit) without having conflict with the "higher power" stuff, go for it man. Seriously.
M
makare
So how is relying on the group, which is outside of you, not the higher power?
M
makare
But if you get support from them they serve as the higher power. That's what the higher power is, whatever supports you.
The AA program my uncles and aunt have used literally separate the two concepts. One is the higher power you yourself hold on to, the other is your fellow alcoholics, sponsor, meetings, etc. you can even see this in the 12 steps.. it literally talks of accepting your flaws to yourself, god, AND other human beings. Separating the both, completely. Hell, lots of the steps talk about submitting yourself to God's will, and ask for him to remove your flaws. I don't remember how exactly they're worded or what specific steps they are... but if you read all 12 you can't say AA wants you to consider your peers the "higher power", far from it.
M
makare
I've been to quite a few meetings and spent a great deal of time with AA people and seeing the support of the group as the higher power is perfectly in line with the AA philosophy. Maybe the programs are just different in different areas I guess.
Dude, the 12 steps, in America:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Those are pretty much EXACTLY as I remember seeing.. translated to Spanish, of course.
The bolded steps? Those are the ones any non-believer would have a problem with. I also underlined the one I mentioned that literally separates humans from the "higher power".
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Those are pretty much EXACTLY as I remember seeing.. translated to Spanish, of course.
The bolded steps? Those are the ones any non-believer would have a problem with. I also underlined the one I mentioned that literally separates humans from the "higher power".
M
makare
I guess I don't see why you couldn't have your support group as your higher power and then also tell your wrongs to another human being who is not part of your group, which is what you do for that step. Usually it is a counselor or something.
Like I said above they say god but it just means higher power as you perceive it so the group fits into that fine.
Like I said above they say god but it just means higher power as you perceive it so the group fits into that fine.
M
makare
Reliance on the group allows the person to focus on his own shortcomings and meditate on what that strength can provide for him in his life. Taking responsibility for himself but knowing that he is supported by the group of people who understand and actively support him. He submits his will to the strength the group gives him and it allows him to rebuild his life.
Yes.. that's exactly what I meant when I said it's an excellent support structure. That still doesn't answer how the group is supposed to take the part of the mentioned God in steps 2, 3 and especially 6, 7 and 11.
I understand where you're coming from, and your interpretation is just as valid as anyone's, but that doesn't mean that the creators of the 12 step program had non-believers in mind. You're a spiritual person so taking them the way you do is easy... but try to put yourself in the shoes of us atheists. Can't you see the conflict those bolded steps would bring? EVEN if you tried to change "god" for "support group"?
I understand where you're coming from, and your interpretation is just as valid as anyone's, but that doesn't mean that the creators of the 12 step program had non-believers in mind. You're a spiritual person so taking them the way you do is easy... but try to put yourself in the shoes of us atheists. Can't you see the conflict those bolded steps would bring? EVEN if you tried to change "god" for "support group"?
M
makare
To me the only conflict would be words. I suppose they should just go through and rewrite the 12 steps for those who have an adverse response to those words. Actually I bet they have. Im going to look that up.
aha victory
You may find that some of the Steps are the same and that there are also references to spirituality included. Depending on your own persuasions, you may wish to edit them further.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to entrust our wills and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves, without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We are ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principals in all our affairs.
http://www.sossobriety.org/12steps.htm
that's what the site said but i suppose you could replace spiritual with intellectual.
aha victory
You may find that some of the Steps are the same and that there are also references to spirituality included. Depending on your own persuasions, you may wish to edit them further.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to entrust our wills and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves, without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We are ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principals in all our affairs.
http://www.sossobriety.org/12steps.htm
that's what the site said but i suppose you could replace spiritual with intellectual.
M
makare
Why are you so damn literal? It is about removing your flaws through growing as a person as a result of the support of the group or whatever else supports you.
No, see, that's my problem with AA. It's Counter-enlightenment at it's most modern. It literally tells you that in order to get better you must accept your own flaws and limitations and then rely on something else. It's submissive and entirely destroys the entire "heaven on earth" ideal of the enlightenment. It removes power from your hands, it relinquishes personal responsibility.
You say it's "removing your flaws", but the whole idea of AA is more akin to "having your flaws removed".. by the powers outside you. Be they whatever you want them to be.
---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 AM ----------
(just noticed your edited post with the new steps, let me read them through before commenting, this post to be edited)
Alright. Those are much better.. EXCEPT for step 2...
"accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources"
That right there is the entire problem with the AA program to me. It's accepting you can't do it on your own. It's not "a tool to help yourself" it's literally "you are lost without this, you are hopeless on your own".
One thing is to have a support structure, another entirely is having to RELY on others.
Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to do that, or that it won't work with many. I KNOW it does, but it's going to be tricky to work within those guidelines for lots of people who are NOT spiritual.
You say it's "removing your flaws", but the whole idea of AA is more akin to "having your flaws removed".. by the powers outside you. Be they whatever you want them to be.
---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 AM ----------
(just noticed your edited post with the new steps, let me read them through before commenting, this post to be edited)
Alright. Those are much better.. EXCEPT for step 2...
"accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources"
That right there is the entire problem with the AA program to me. It's accepting you can't do it on your own. It's not "a tool to help yourself" it's literally "you are lost without this, you are hopeless on your own".
One thing is to have a support structure, another entirely is having to RELY on others.
Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to do that, or that it won't work with many. I KNOW it does, but it's going to be tricky to work within those guidelines for lots of people who are NOT spiritual.
M
makare
It's not a philosophical movement. It is simply a tool to help people overcome addiction. It is a malleable tool as well so nothing is set in stone. I mean if an all atheist group wanted to adapt the steps to their own beliefs, or lack thereof whatever, they can and it would still be AA.
Cajungal
Staff member
I don't know much about AA, but I just want to say that I think it's entirely possible to both take responsibility for your actions and admit that we humans are not islands and function better with the support of others. This is especially true in situations like this where the problem is a dependency that affects your quality of life and can make you feel extremely weak and desperate. You wouldn't simply look within to overcome a serious physical illness, and I don't believe you should for something like this either. As a very proud person, I don't fully accept the idea of feeling completely powerless to change my own life, but I also acknowledge that I've only gotten over my most difficult moments with the support of others.
For people who simply need to cut back and do not feel incomplete or wrong without alcohol, yeah, this probably would not be necessary. But it's probably very good for some people.
For people who simply need to cut back and do not feel incomplete or wrong without alcohol, yeah, this probably would not be necessary. But it's probably very good for some people.
Exactly... that's precisely what I meant when I said it's an EXCELLENT support structure. Listening to people who are going through similar things, learning by their mistakes, having them listen and give outside advice. All that is awesome and an excellent tool. Human beings are social animals, of course something like this would be completely beneficial.
The problem some of us see is that AA goes BEYOND that. It offers a support structure BUT it also asks you to entirely submit to the higher power, whatever it may be. It literally tells you that without doing so, you're done. It's not, usually, "hey, come here, we can help you" it's "hey, you're powerless on your own, if you don't come here you're going to be screwed".
This is a problem SPECIFIC to Alcoholics Anonymous... which is a specific organization, makare, with its own board of trustees and everything, that has it's own guidelines and relies on the so-called "Big Book". There are OTHER support groups that are based on AA but aren't part of the organization that may be more lenient on the higher power thing. Actually I think those may be a better idea. But that's me, of course.
As long as the "big book" is involved, I have issues with AA.
---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 AM ----------
THIS is exactly what I have a problem with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Book_(Alcoholics_Anonymous)#Recovery_only_through_faith_in_God
I tried to link to the section specifically, but if it doesn't work it's the "Recovery only through faith in God" subtitle.
M
makare
I give up.
AA encourages groups to use the tools in ways that fit their members needs as individuals and a group. That's all I've got now besides a splitting headache.
AA encourages groups to use the tools in ways that fit their members needs as individuals and a group. That's all I've got now besides a splitting headache.
Cajungal
Staff member
Huh... weird. After reading your protests more thoroughly I understand why you're leery of the program. At least it seems as if (judging only by sources I've been able to read in the past 20 minutes or so) that they are trying to keep the spiritual side of the program vague so that it can be adjusted to people's individual needs and beliefs. And people who do this of their own free will don't have some kind of file, right? They aren't followed around? You call the sponsor, he doesn't call you? If all that's the case, I'll bet it would be easy to take what you do need from the program and leave all the stuff you find distasteful--do the moderate thing and admit you need help, call the support of peers the "power" (no higher 
) that you need to get through this and be done with it.
I read in the revised AA sponsor Q+A (it wouldn't copy/paste...) that sponsors aren't allowed to impose their own spiritual beliefs on a member. The example was that an atheist couldn't tell a member to abandon his faith in God, and a thiest couldn't persuade a member to look to God for help. So they're trying to keep things very non-specific, at least... I mean, hopefully.
Anyway, like all things, AA's not for everyone. People can find support for this sort of thing in many forms.
) that you need to get through this and be done with it. I read in the revised AA sponsor Q+A (it wouldn't copy/paste...) that sponsors aren't allowed to impose their own spiritual beliefs on a member. The example was that an atheist couldn't tell a member to abandon his faith in God, and a thiest couldn't persuade a member to look to God for help. So they're trying to keep things very non-specific, at least... I mean, hopefully.
Anyway, like all things, AA's not for everyone. People can find support for this sort of thing in many forms.
Pretty much this. If AA has to much religious connotations for someone there are plenty of other options. If AA works for people or if they find religion or don't while in AA good for them. It's their lives.
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