Explain Anti-Enviroment Actions

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Soliloquy

I think it originated in thinking that environmentalists are over-reacting to the world's problems, to the point where the ideas that environmentalists push end up harming society for the sake of something that wasn't nearly as consequential as they claimed.

Then, after numerous games of telephone, that line thinking degraded into "the environment is evil, and must be destroyed!"
 
Meh, it's just the old human proclivity of whenever opposing something to taking the opposite extreme instead of being moderate about it... so yeah, people are idiots.
 
S

Soliloquy

I do have to say that I never thought captain planet's villains would seem realistic.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Seriously, I just don't get it.
The fact that you quote mediamatters like it's a peer reviewed journal might be some indication of why you don't get it. I'll give you a hint... Mediamatters is the National Review Online of the left.

But anyway, to answer your original question, it's because the man-made global warming movement isn't really about saving the earth, or even saving ourselves - it's about damaging the engines of the (formerly) strongest capitalist system in the world and redistribution of wealth. When it fell out of style to be communist (and to a lesser degree, socialist), the anticapitalists found refuge in the "environmentalist" movement. This is where the term "watermelon environmentalist" comes from... green on the outside, but red to the core. The "environment" argument has been co-opted by these people, who are using it simply as brakes on the American Economy. After all, if CO2 is so horrible, where were the limits in any of the economy-killing carbon treaties for China? India?

The truth of the matter is, for "real" pollution, America is one of the cleanest nations and is getting cleaner every year. Mercury. Sulphur. These are real pollutants we need to worry about. Carbon Dioxide isn't. Carbon Dioxide is necessary for plant growth and is a natural, beneficial chemical. It's turned into a witch hunt.

Graphs are great. You can make them say anything you want. Look at this one!



Does that mean our temperature isn't rising or falling? Who knows! In such a politically charged topic, graphs are always tailored to show what the presenter wants them to show. It's the same with any of the mediamatters graphs. Remember the infamous "hockey stick" graph that got all this started? It's long been debunked.

Climate change is the new religion, albeit a secular one. Carbon credits are the new indulgences. And when we weren't looking, we practically became a theocracy. But why is it that the high priest of this church, Al Gore, has a huuuuuuuuuuge "carbon footprint?" Associated Press reported his home as having 12x the national average, other sources said as much as 20... though since 2007, Gore has allegedly "made improvements." Sure, once he got caught with his pants down.

So some mean spirited people who aren't converted to the church of global warming like ticking off the faithful the same way certain atheists like ticking off the theists. Saying "I'm gonna celebrate earth day by burning styrofoam in my back yard" comes from the same schadenfreude-laden urges that cause people to post pictures of the flying spaghetti monster.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Replace $ with almost any crime and it works too.

Maybe CO2 emision is not a problem now. You want to wait for it to become a problem to do something about it?
 
What he really means is:

$
Krisken, what do you have to say about people who don't want to live in caves?
Krisken, what about the man who wants to better provide for his family?
Krisken, what's the real impetus behind all the global warming stuff, the carbon credits, the lawsuits over allegedly rising sea levels?
Ah so.[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to illicit an ad hominem attack from me?

Pretending we don't have an effect on our environment isn't just asinine. It's willful ignorance.

Go ahead and keep pretending it's not about money.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Replace $ with almost any crime and it works too.

Maybe CO2 emision is not a problem now. You want to wait for it to become a problem to do something about it?
This is exactly what I was talking about when I said "carbon dioxide witch hunt." The very premise of this sentence is flawed.

Oxygen emission isn't a problem now. You want to wait for it to become a problem before we do something about it? (and yes, there is such a thing as too much oxygen)

Space aliens aren't a problem now. Do you want to wait until they become one to do something about them too?

Spontaneous human combustion is not a problem right now, but...

Killer rabid weasels are not much of a problem right now, but...

Liberty isn't a problem right now, but...



---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

Are you trying to illicit an ad hominem attack from me?
Elicit! Not Illicit! BAM! That's for "infer!" ;)
 
S

Soliloquy

aaand... This thread is now just another krisken/gasbandit shit-flinging fest.

Hooray.
 
I tell you what, I'll make a serious post.

There are many aspects of environmental and anti-environmental that get blown out of proportion. Many companies are against environmental regulations for the obvious reasons, being money. It costs more to ensure things are safe, waste is renewable, and letting people know they are being 'responsible' by advertising it. On the other side environmentalists take extreme positions and make unrealistic expectations of people, all the while encouraging the purchase of products which use an excessive amount of resources to create (land, money, time) and ignore the benefits of modernization in our current culture.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us to be responsible for our own knowledge. Knowing that both sides of this argument use bumper sticker slogans to further their position and collect very real concerns along with the hyperbole is the first important step to take. Plastics from the ocean really are connected to a decline in not just fish birth rates, but in miscarriages in Japanese women. Increases in costs for renewing resources really do cause products to cost more, leading to potential job losses.

Overall, it's a complex issue that can't be summed up with words like Global Warming.
 
Replace $ with almost any crime and it works too.

Maybe CO2 emision is not a problem now. You want to wait for it to become a problem to do something about it?
I don't think you've robbed a bank yet, but I don't want to wait until you do so I'm going to go ahead and arrest you.
 
You want a real-life Captain Planet villain? I'll give you one. Don Blankenship, CEO of Massey Energy.

If anyone in state or federal government had any balls, he'd be looking at hard prison time after the Upper Big Branch Mine. 28 dead because he's a greedy, arrogant pile of dog shit.

If not prison, then shove that son of a bitch face-first into a running wood chipper. He's got blood on his hands and he doesn't care.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You want a real-life Captain Planet villain? I'll give you one. Don Blankenship, CEO of Massey Energy.

If anyone in state or federal government had any balls, he'd be looking at hard prison time after the Upper Big Branch Mine. 28 dead because he's a greedy, arrogant pile of dog shit.

If not prison, then shove that son of a bitch face-first into a running wood chipper. He's got blood on his hands and he doesn't care.
See, now this is something that does need more scrutiny. From what I've read, conditions in that mine were unsafe despite repeated audits saying "we could really use more ventilation shafts in here" and whatnot going back years. Those in charge should be held accountable. But that's more of a worker safety issue, not really an environmental issue.


All I've got left to say on the environmental issue is this - Krisken's right in that it is an extremely complex issue with "real" scientists on both sides of the debate, and it has been hyperpoliticized both by the hardcore statists who want to strangle capitalism and the plutocrats who would dump gallons of pure ebola in a drinking reservoir if it'd turn them a profit and they thought they could do it without going to jail. This is unfortunate because it causes even people who are otherwise reasonable and independent of thought to distrust the motives of those who disagree with them because they could be part of the above two groups. What gets lost in the shuffle are the common sense policies - that we should be doing everything we can to curb emissions of sulphur and mercury and carbon monoxide (known, demonstrable toxins); that nuclear energy is much safer, cleaner and more efficient than fossil fuels for electricity generation; that we could be safely and cleanly burning solid waste for power like denmark does instead of piling it up in huge landfills. But none of these things make any select elite group more powerful or wealthy, so they're not pushed. Make no mistake about any huge debate on the federal level these days - it's never about the problem it claims to address. It's always about deciding who has the power.
 
S

Soliloquy

That's one of the biggest problems I have being a political reporter right now. I can never shake the feeling that every single word coming out of a politician's mouth is a carefully-manipulated half-truth that serves no other purpose than to gain the voters' affection.

This has the side-effect of me not giving a care what politicians have to say, so I guess that makes me unbiased? Kinda? Maybe?

(The people who I work for are biased, though, so that kind of defeats that)
 

North_Ranger

Staff member
Ah yes, the Magnificent GasBandit and his "It's Dem Socialists and Liberals and Intellectuals" Torch and Pitchfork Hour.

I thought we were due for one already...
 
That's one of the biggest problems I have being a political reporter right now. I can never shake the feeling that every single word coming out of a politician's mouth is a carefully-manipulated half-truth that serves no other purpose than to gain the voters' affection.

This has the side-effect of me not giving a care what politicians have to say, so I guess that makes me unbiased? Kinda? Maybe?

(The people who I work for are biased, though, so that kind of defeats that)
Truth is in between the lies.
 
Gas, I feel the need to ask: do you seriously believe that this environmentalist hooplah is all about stunting the progress of the West? (or to be more specific, perhaps, America?) You also make mention of communism. Do you think that, too, was simply an effort to challenge the 'developed world'?

That makes you sound a heck of a lot like Frank Burns, so I hope I'm misunderstanding. But it would be useful to see better where it is you are coming from.
 
C

crono1224

I gotta agree to a degree with Gas and Krisken I think this is hyperpolarizing debate, that is causing major problems because it has super extremes. Gas has a point, if this is such dire we going to lose the planet in 5-10 years then why isn't China and India being sanctioned, why aren't there tougher restrictions placed on them?
I think policies should be in place and they should be realistic and well thought out.
 

North_Ranger

Staff member
I gotta agree to a degree with Gas and Krisken I think this is hyperpolarizing debate, that is causing major problems because it has super extremes. Gas has a point, if this is such dire we going to lose the planet in 5-10 years then why isn't China and India being sanctioned, why aren't there tougher restrictions placed on them?
I think policies should be in place and they should be realistic and well thought out.
A fine example of a polarizing argument, since short of an all-out nuclear gangbang it's physically impossible to "lose the planet". If anything, the climate change issue is about trying not to fuck up the planet too bad. At least, that's my understanding of the more level-headed voices in this clusterfuck.
 
C

crono1224

I gotta agree to a degree with Gas and Krisken I think this is hyperpolarizing debate, that is causing major problems because it has super extremes. Gas has a point, if this is such dire we going to lose the planet in 5-10 years then why isn't China and India being sanctioned, why aren't there tougher restrictions placed on them?
I think policies should be in place and they should be realistic and well thought out.
A fine example of a polarizing argument, since short of an all-out nuclear gangbang it's physically impossible to "lose the planet". If anything, the climate change issue is about trying not to fuck up the planet too bad. At least, that's my understanding of the more level-headed voices in this clusterfuck.[/QUOTE]

I realized my statement was polarizing and it's a statement i have read several times. But lets even just slightly back up on it, and say the world is in danger in the semi-near future, why aren't the upcoming economic powers being punished like the already established ones?
 
I realized my statement was polarizing and it's a statement i have read several times. But lets even just slightly back up on it, and say the world is in danger in the semi-near future, why aren't the upcoming economic powers being punished like the already established ones?
Because they don't have the means to develop AND go green all at once. The established world powers have not only high standards of living, but also the means to develop new technologies and phase out outmoded/dirty ones. The developing world's first priority, on the other hand, is to raise it's standards of living to that of the developed world, which right now comes with more pollution.

On the other hand, if the developed world develops green technologies faster, then the developing world can make the effort to adopt those innovations instead of the ones that cause so much trouble.

Besides, look at it from their perspective: we've had decades to piss all over the earth, and it's gotten us so far. Now, when they're finally getting a chance to catch up, we're telling them that they can't. Why the hell should they listen to that? Maybe it's about saving the earth, but all the middle class Indian man knows is that they're finally starting to catch up, and some foreigner is telling them that they can't. The underdeveloped world gets indignant, the developed world gets strict, and international relations are strained.

It might be less direct than saying 'everyone stop polluting now!' but a more gentle approach to developing economies and a harsher attitude towards the established ones might do a lot more to curb the threat of climate change.

But this is only my understanding. I've done a decent amount of reading on the subject, and I attended a seminar by a fairly renowned environmental scientist a few months back on the subject. I myself can only coalesce so much data, though, and make sense of the mess however I can. And that's how the whole thing looks to me.
 
C

crono1224

I realized my statement was polarizing and it's a statement i have read several times. But lets even just slightly back up on it, and say the world is in danger in the semi-near future, why aren't the upcoming economic powers being punished like the already established ones?
Because they don't have the means to develop AND go green all at once. The established world powers have not only high standards of living, but also the means to develop new technologies and phase out outmoded/dirty ones. The developing world's first priority, on the other hand, is to raise it's standards of living to that of the developed world, which right now comes with more pollution.

On the other hand, if the developed world develops green technologies faster, then the developing world can make the effort to adopt those innovations instead of the ones that cause so much trouble.

Besides, look at it from their perspective: we've had decades to piss all over the earth, and it's gotten us so far. Now, when they're finally getting a chance to catch up, we're telling them that they can't. Why the hell should they listen to that? Maybe it's about saving the earth, but all the middle class Indian man knows is that they're finally starting to catch up, and some foreigner is telling them that they can't. The underdeveloped world gets indignant, the developed world gets strict, and international relations are strained.

It might be less direct than saying 'everyone stop polluting now!' but a more gentle approach to developing economies and a harsher attitude towards the established ones might do a lot more to curb the threat of climate change.

But this is only my understanding. I've done a decent amount of reading on the subject, and I attended a seminar by a fairly renowned environmental scientist a few months back on the subject. I myself can only coalesce so much data, though, and make sense of the mess however I can. And that's how the whole thing looks to me.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of what you say, the perspective of "they had the chance to do it why are we punished" could be applied to our past generations and us now. But really lets be honest I bet you its more than development vs environmental care. I would say at least in China it's an all out build up, as fast as possible and if you can skimp on regulation than screw it we need it.
 
Yeah, unfortunately that attitude can be used as an excuse to be reckless.

China is a difficult one, too. They are growing so fast, and need to expand their electricity production so rapidly that the coal industry is exploding there. Coal. Exploding. As in, they are building more coal-powered plants, and using more coal. I know there are still coal-powered plants in the developed world, but that's a fact that we're generally ashamed of, and are working on eliminating.

It's a very awkward spot, though, because I'm sure if the cleaner sources were feasible they'd be used, so I have a hard time condemning all of these coal-burning facilities, persoanlly.
 
C

crono1224

Yeah, unfortunately that attitude can be used as an excuse to be reckless.

China is a difficult one, too. They are growing so fast, and need to expand their electricity production so rapidly that the coal industry is exploding there. Coal. Exploding. As in, they are building more coal-powered plants, and using more coal. I know there are still coal-powered plants in the developed world, but that's a fact that we're generally ashamed of, and are working on eliminating.

It's a very awkward spot, though, because I'm sure if the cleaner sources were feasible they'd be used, so I have a hard time condemning all of these coal-burning facilities, persoanlly.
Agree with everything till the if cleaner source were feasible, I think they would simply use both, the sheer amount that they are producing is probably limited only by time it takes to start production and areas to produce from, so I doubt a cleaner substance (not cleaner way of doing things) would as much stop coal production as simply cause them to use it in addition to what they already are doing.
 
Here's the issue, as I see it:

People are using the environmentalist movement as a polarizing issue.

That's it. The ONLY reason people are going on and on and on about going green is BECAUSE it gets people involved and committed to whatever each side is saying.

Acid rain was going to kill the planet by the year 2000. Then the ozone depletion was going to kill the planet within a few decades. Now it's carbon dioxide? We made some _small_ improvements in acid rain (EPA emissions reduction of sulfer, etc), and some _small_ improvements in ozone depletion (CFC reduction). Has the acidity in rain dropped? A tiny amount. Not significant. Have the ozone 'holes' gotten smaller? A tiny bit, but it turns out a lot of what we saw was the result of natural cycles and the fact that we started measuring it.

Global warming was going to kill us, but try as they might scientists couldn't find a reason that linked human activity to increasing temperatures. It took awhile, but eventually they _decided_ that carbon dioxide must be the reason, and so they started pushing on high CO2 levels, and dropped global warming like a hot potato, because, as it turns out, we can't conclusively prove that global warming will kill us outright (you know, like acid rain, overpopulation, and ozone depletion was going to kill us outright). But CO2! That can kill us outright!

What's even more interesting is that many people in that group are now moving away from CO2 specifically, because evidence is coming forth that even if we reduced our CO2 output to 0, we wouldn't make a significant impact due to natural CO2 emissions. Now they're searching for another "problem" that they can "solve" while they are still pushing on CO2.

It's a racket.

Yes, we can and should do more, and people are doing more.

But the effects of our changes to "fix" the sulfer and CFC "problems" have resulted in very small, but measurable improvments. But we certainly weren't in any danger of destroying the earth or ourselves, and a lot of what we were seeing turned out to be natural and/or acceptable (ie, due to solar cycles, and natural pollutants in the atmosphere, such as volcanic activity, forest fires, etc).

We spent billions to 'fix' these problems.

The 'fixes' continue to cost our economy billions EACH YEAR.


So you'll have to excuse us backwards thinking neanderthals if we don't drink the kool aid this time.

No one has concrete proof that the earth shattering claims are true. At best people can offer is, "CO2 captures light from the sun more efficiently, which raises temperatures globally, and humans generate CO2, THEREFORE THE WORLD IS ENDING."

Yes, we need to make some improvements. But the violent furor that both sides are generating is at best unhelpful, and at worst going to put us in a worse position than we started with.

Idiots, the lot of them. And those that buy into this and insist that we are only opposing these things for the money are shortsighted and have a poor memory of the recent past, which is just sad. Notice that the environmental groups are largely funded by and consist of people under 30?

It's easy to sell snake oil to someone that's never seen it before.
 
The reason for Anti-Environment Actions?

Those that actually take real steps and care and try and do right by the earth tend to go about it on their own, but the biggest people in the movement are in-your-face pretentious assholes who tell you if you don't suddenly stop using all your electricity, and begin wiping your ass with a single sheet of toilet paper the world will end in 10 years all while flying around on their private jets and having a much bigger effect on the environment then you ever will.

Don't tell me how to live my life and then go around doing ten times worse while justifying it as being needed to spread the message.

Doesn't help that they take a non-losing arguement.
 
My issues with the environmental movement are centered around how the most visible elements (who are usually not the scientists) tend towards gross hyperbole and misinterpretation of data in pushing their agenda, which as GB mentions is focused more on income re-distribution than green technologies.

Not only do people not take it well when they, as opposed to the speaker, are told it's their fault, every time one of those extreme statements is shown to be ridiculously overstated (at best) or completely wrong (at worst), it's another can of gas thrown on anti-intellectual fire that's running amok throughout the US. Those are the kinds of things that prompt Texas Board of Education into saying things like "someone needs to stand up to the experts" when it comes to evolution.

I hold the vast, vast majority of climate scientists totally blameless in this. If we ignore the deniers, I think there's a huge gap in-between the skeptics and the believers where tangible progress can be made, though I'm completely mystified by the fear of nuclear energy that pervades the environmental movement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top