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Dusty668
I've also seen a sports fan in their own recliner surrounded by their team logo junk. I'll see if I can find a better pic, it's from 2005.
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Chazwozel
How's this any different from any other funeral ritual? The guy obviously loved to ride his bike. Really no different than sticking things in the casket. It helps the family to mourn seeing their loved ones doing the things they enjoyed.
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LordRavage
We are not that messed up...most of the time....maybe part of the time.........hhmmmm....maybe a little more the usual....
That clip gave me idea....I want them put my body up as a zombie. And they have to put me by a window.....next to a school.
That clip gave me idea....I want them put my body up as a zombie. And they have to put me by a window.....next to a school.
Not really messed up, IMO. If I was inclined towards being buried, I'd see about being buried in a decommissioned Crown Vic. It would make the burial process easier.... just roll me in. *grins*
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Cobra Star
That's not how he was being buried though, that's how he was being SHOWN to his family and friends at the funeral.
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Cobra Star
I gotta disagree. It's pretty selfish and I can't imagine it being seen as much else than a disgrace to put the body there in a way the family can't properly grieve and move on.
(This is an opinion, I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just simply how I view the situation at hand)
(This is an opinion, I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just simply how I view the situation at hand)
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Cobra Star
Again, seems selfish.
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Wasabi Poptart
I don't understand how this is selfish. A lot of people request weird things for their families to do when they die or leave instructions. In my case of strange, my parents got "We Had Fun" engraved on their headstone so people would think of how much they enjoyed their lives instead of focusing on the fact that they're dead. Personally I think it's tacky, but hey, not my headstone. If the family didn't want the guy on the motorcycle, they could have expressed that to the funeral director. I'm sure the funeral home would listen to them if they didn't want their loved one shown this way.
SELFISH!!!!!!1111
Mainly fish.
Mainly fish.
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Cobra Star
Again, a headstone is a bit different than going to a wake and seeing the body propped up like that when the family is still recently trying to accept that the other has passed on...
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Chazwozel
I really don't see how it's selfish for a family to pose their relative in a way that honors what that person loved during their lifetime...
---------- Post added at 07:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 AM ----------
I'm pretty sure the guy on the bike had nothing to do with the final arrangements of being propped on a motorcycle. He's dead!
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Dusty668
How about these things to do in Asia when you're dead.
The family is the one who has a say in doing this as executors of the will.
The family is the group who could be offended by doing this.
The family does this.
Not seeing the logic cohesion. Unless sanctity of caskets is going to become a new flag for people to wave, like sanctity of marriage BS.
The family is the group who could be offended by doing this.
The family does this.
Not seeing the logic cohesion. Unless sanctity of caskets is going to become a new flag for people to wave, like sanctity of marriage BS.
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Cobra Star
If the family made the choice. Fine, their choice and if they grieve properly in spite of it. More power to them.
If it was his "last will and testament" and the family did it to honor his wishes. Then yeah, I don't agree on it.
If it was his "last will and testament" and the family did it to honor his wishes. Then yeah, I don't agree on it.
It's their choice either way. You don't have to do what the will says. That's why you trust someone to be the executor of your will--you're trusting them to honor your last wishes. The family didn't have to though.
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Cobra Star
They can do it, and still not like it.
Still their choice. If it offended them so badly, no one was making them. People shouldn't request things for fear of someone going along with that request, except doing it begrudgingly? I see that in marriages a lot, but when one party is dead, they're not really going to hold you accountable one way or the other.
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Cobra Star
Pretty much, yeah. "I can make them do it, cause I won't have to hear them complain about it" seems about as selfish as a sentence can be.
He can't make them. He's DEAD.
You also put out a disturbing notion that people shouldn't ask for something out of fear of offending. "Well, I'd like this to be how my body is displayed at my wake, but the family might be offended, so I won't put it in the will." Hiding what you want lets no one know your desires, and just makes everyone miserable.
Here's how it should go down:
"I'd like my body displayed this way."
"No, we're not comfortable with that." Which does not mean "But we'll do it anyway." That passive, begrudging submission is the worst way to go through life. Again, just makes everyone miserable. Notice there's no response from dead guy--because he's dead. He can't argue his point.
One should still make the request, because the alternative can be:
"I'd like my body displayed this way."
"Sure, we'll do that."
Damn, I'd hate to be someone going through life telling no one what I wanted, and then when they tell me what they want, having a "fine, I'll do it, but I'm not gonna like it and you're selfish" attitude. Seems like a good way to be unhappy and make others unhappy through your joyless demeanor. People need to be a little selfish, at least enough to request the things they want. They also need to be gracious to accept when those requests are shot down. Except this guy doesn't--because he's dead. He wasn't going to be there to beg or guilt or anything.
So if they didn't want to do it, they didn't have to. On some level, they desired to go along with this. If it offended them so badly, they could've stuck him in a casket for the wake and been done with it.
That's all for arguing through the logic of what you're saying. On-topic, this guy was 22. He probably didn't even have a will. And the article itself says:
You also put out a disturbing notion that people shouldn't ask for something out of fear of offending. "Well, I'd like this to be how my body is displayed at my wake, but the family might be offended, so I won't put it in the will." Hiding what you want lets no one know your desires, and just makes everyone miserable.
Here's how it should go down:
"I'd like my body displayed this way."
"No, we're not comfortable with that." Which does not mean "But we'll do it anyway." That passive, begrudging submission is the worst way to go through life. Again, just makes everyone miserable. Notice there's no response from dead guy--because he's dead. He can't argue his point.
One should still make the request, because the alternative can be:
"I'd like my body displayed this way."
"Sure, we'll do that."
Damn, I'd hate to be someone going through life telling no one what I wanted, and then when they tell me what they want, having a "fine, I'll do it, but I'm not gonna like it and you're selfish" attitude. Seems like a good way to be unhappy and make others unhappy through your joyless demeanor. People need to be a little selfish, at least enough to request the things they want. They also need to be gracious to accept when those requests are shot down. Except this guy doesn't--because he's dead. He wasn't going to be there to beg or guilt or anything.
So if they didn't want to do it, they didn't have to. On some level, they desired to go along with this. If it offended them so badly, they could've stuck him in a casket for the wake and been done with it.
That's all for arguing through the logic of what you're saying. On-topic, this guy was 22. He probably didn't even have a will. And the article itself says:
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Cobra Star
Ever heard of doing something out of guilt? (Guilt of not following through the wishes of the deceased, even though you feel it's wrong)
So which selfishness is more troublesome?
A. requesting of someone something they don't have to do
B. doing something so you don't have the guilt but get to bitch about it
C. turning down a request because it offends you
A. requesting of someone something they don't have to do
B. doing something so you don't have the guilt but get to bitch about it
C. turning down a request because it offends you
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Cobra Star
The selfishness where you put your own wants (which you can't even reap because you're dead) over the wellbeing and proper grieving of your family.
Again, if it was what his family wanted, then I have no issue here. My issue is if it was not.
Again, if it was what his family wanted, then I have no issue here. My issue is if it was not.
Which is pretty clearly what happened.
Nonetheless, they could put their own grieving first even if he asked for it and they weren't comfortable. I think it's ridiculous to believe that someone's will request alleviates their family of any free will, that all requested actions are the responsibility of the dead person. I'm of a mind that when you died, you don't suddenly grasp your family's minds like puppet strings, but everyone has their own afterlife beliefs. I think what you're arguing is actually a huge problem in how people relate today, that because someone is subjected to passive aggression or guilt, that suddenly they're obligated to do what the passive-aggressor/guilter wants. They're not. Each person is responsible for their own actions. No one can make you do something; you make choices and they have various consequences. In this case, had it not been what the family desired, they could have made the choice to go against his wishes and faced the consequence of guilt, or gone along with his wishes and faced the consequence of some discomfort at the wake.
Either way, it's a person's own choice what they do, no one else's around them. Particularly not dead people.
Nonetheless, they could put their own grieving first even if he asked for it and they weren't comfortable. I think it's ridiculous to believe that someone's will request alleviates their family of any free will, that all requested actions are the responsibility of the dead person. I'm of a mind that when you died, you don't suddenly grasp your family's minds like puppet strings, but everyone has their own afterlife beliefs. I think what you're arguing is actually a huge problem in how people relate today, that because someone is subjected to passive aggression or guilt, that suddenly they're obligated to do what the passive-aggressor/guilter wants. They're not. Each person is responsible for their own actions. No one can make you do something; you make choices and they have various consequences. In this case, had it not been what the family desired, they could have made the choice to go against his wishes and faced the consequence of guilt, or gone along with his wishes and faced the consequence of some discomfort at the wake.
Either way, it's a person's own choice what they do, no one else's around them. Particularly not dead people.
who says guilt even has to come into it?
If my little bro died, for instance, and wanted to be represented at his viewing in a white robe and thorny crown up on a cross, I could say "hah! that'd be hilarious and just like him!" and do it. Or I could say "meh, that's freaking ridiculous, no way." and not do it..either way, I wouldn't have any guilt at all. Seriously, what's he gonna do? Jump up out of the casket and bitch at me for not putting him up on a cross?
I think the position Cobra is railing about is pretty far fetched: That somehow the bike rider was a real selfish asshole who wanted to be displayed in a certain way, even though he knew it'd make his family uncomfortable, and yet, somehow they acceded to his wishes and then regretted it the entire time. More likely, they saw his request and went "fuckin a..that sounds cool. It's just what he'd want" and did it. If indeed it was even the deceased idea...for all we know, it was the family's idea, because it was a way to remember him in a positive way.
If my little bro died, for instance, and wanted to be represented at his viewing in a white robe and thorny crown up on a cross, I could say "hah! that'd be hilarious and just like him!" and do it. Or I could say "meh, that's freaking ridiculous, no way." and not do it..either way, I wouldn't have any guilt at all. Seriously, what's he gonna do? Jump up out of the casket and bitch at me for not putting him up on a cross?
I think the position Cobra is railing about is pretty far fetched: That somehow the bike rider was a real selfish asshole who wanted to be displayed in a certain way, even though he knew it'd make his family uncomfortable, and yet, somehow they acceded to his wishes and then regretted it the entire time. More likely, they saw his request and went "fuckin a..that sounds cool. It's just what he'd want" and did it. If indeed it was even the deceased idea...for all we know, it was the family's idea, because it was a way to remember him in a positive way.
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Cobra Star
Far fetched or not, that was simply the point I was making. I wasn't aruging the other points.
Yeah, and in which case, it'd be entirely their own fault for acceding.
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Cobra Star
They're going to feel bad in either choice of that situation:
They go through with it, they do not grieve correctly.
They don't, they feel guilty for not following the wishes.
It's lose/lose.
They go through with it, they do not grieve correctly.
They don't, they feel guilty for not following the wishes.
It's lose/lose.
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Chazwozel
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html
Logical fallacy. You completely ignore the fact that there's a third (and possibly more) options. Notably:
c) The family thought it was great, and had good closure because of it.
Not everyone has to have a wailing, teeth-gnashing, hair-rending grief-stricken viewing to send someone off to the great beyond in order to have closure. Ever hear of an Irish wake? Not everyone has to have your ideology in order to 'greive properly.'
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meyoumeyou
Really?
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