Bull gets Revenge on Matador

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Chibibar

sixpackshaker said:
Ever since the Goths and other wanderers settled your fine nation, there has been some form of cow related blood sport. It is difficult at best to say the things your forefathers loved were wrong and need to be stopped. Especially when these sports go back at least 1600 years in Spain. Dog Fighting is much younger, it came out of the bans on Bull, Bear, and Rat baiting.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfight

well if this is right, then cockfighting goes back to around 500 BC. So it is ban now (in some country after 2500 years.) if we go by the same timeline ;) Bull fighting will get ban 2100 years from now ;)
 
tegid

tegid

sixpackshaker said:
Ever since the Goths and other wanderers settled your fine nation, there has been some form of cow related blood sport. It is difficult at best to say the things your forefathers loved were wrong and need to be stopped. Especially when these sports go back at least 1600 years in Spain. Dog Fighting is much younger, it came out of the bans on Bull, Bear, and Rat baiting.
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Good point, but:
1- 50 years ago women in Spain couldn't travel if they didn't have permission from their father, husband or, failing these, some male relative. What I want to say, without using a too extreme example, is that tradition doesn't make it right.

2- I believe there was some kind of tradition of cockfighting too. That's forbidden now. What's the difference?

Besides these two, my real argument would be that I believe that what society or 'culture' defines as 'right' needs to agree with some moral code. If most of the culture establishes a moral rule (i.e. animal cruely is bad), either any part that comes into conflict with it is wrong or the rule itself is wrong.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Spain

Cockfighting is banned in Spain except in Canary Islands. Organisations as WWF/Adena and some political parties are trying to ban there too.[14][15][16] Contrasting with the rest of the country, bullfighting is instead forbidden in the Canary Islands, since it is not considered traditional, unlike cockfighting.
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Same article. The Bull was central to Gothic Pre-Christian culture and religion. But they did not measure their cocks against the cocks of other farmers...

They measured themselves on horseback against a Bull.

---------- Post added at 08:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

The Baiting sports and Cock-fighting mostly get banned because of the illegal activities that go on around the fights. The illegal alcohol, drugs, prostitution, and most importantly the gambling. The actual cruelty is normally secondary in getting those activities banned.
 
tegid

tegid

But I can tell you, most (or many, at the very least) people who publicly defend bullfighting also condemn cockfights as abhorrently cruel (At least those who have expressed their opinion for me to know). And it IS socially considered wrong, legality aside. For some reason cock fights are regarded as something cruel without any value beyond that, whereas bullfighting is considered somehow a beautiful and elevated art.

Besides this, if a majority of people consider it wrong, then it is wrong by cultural standards, and since those determine what's right or wrong... it's wrong. Right?
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Everyone should hear the song El Gallo Del Cielo. It is an English language song about cockfighting. It is still one of my favorite songs. But it is a very long song, like most story songs are.
 
C

Chibibar

tegid said:
But I can tell you, most (or many, at the very least) people who publicly defend bullfighting also condemn cockfights as abhorrently cruel (At least those who have expressed their opinion for me to know). And it IS socially considered wrong, legality aside. For some reason cock fights are regarded as something cruel without any value beyond that, whereas bullfighting is considered somehow a beautiful and elevated art.

Besides this, if a majority of people consider it wrong, then it is wrong by cultural standards, and since those determine what's right or wrong... it's wrong. Right?
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It depends on what you are brought up by (culture) It is hard to think beyond it (few do it) but some examples.

What if you are brought up in a country where it is ok to eat people? in OUR culture it is wrong but it is ok to eat animals.
What if it is ok to kill someone on your land? Some culture it is illegal while some need probably cause.

I believe that overtime, collective culture becomes "universal" rules. As we progress, things change. Back in the height of many empire, slaves are ok, (usually capture from war from losing country) bought and sold, but as we advance recently, slaves are finally not acceptable in MOST culture, but in some, they still exist (or may call by other name like indenture servants)

I use to remember something that my psych prof tells me about how culture changes.

long ago divorce, sex before marriage, and murder is all wrong.
Later Divorce is ok, sex before marriage is still frown upon/bad and murder is wrong.
now divorce is common, sex before marriage is ok, but murder is still wrong.

Today - Divorce is ok (in most culture now), sex before marriage is ok (in most culture now) but murder is still wrong (except government assassination it seems, death penalty - some consider murder, and self defense)
 
Null

Null

I've never read a story that made cockfighting or dogfighting seem like art, the way "Death in the Afternoon" does for bullfighting. I guess the main differences are that fighting roosters and fighting dogs usually must be destroyed after their fighting is done, because they are only capable of killing, and that a human does not risk death in a cockfight or dogfight. "A bullfight is the only art in which the artist risks death with every performance" were Hemingway's words, I believe.

That being said, I do not think lethal bullfights are morally right, and the matador knew the risks. Did they put the bull down? That would be surprising - most victorious bulls are put to stud. The Miura ranch in particular produced Murcielago, Islero, and Reventon, all of whom gored matadors fatally / cripplingly and were prized studs because of it. Indeed, almost the entire Lamborghini line is based on fighting bulls.

Am I mistaken in thinking the Portugeuse method of bullfighting is essentially "counting coup" on a bull - running up to it and slapping it's flanks, before getting away? That seems a less cruel method of doing it, while still preserving the element of courage.

Bullfighting, in a lot of ways, is like many other extreme sports, except there is more art to it. There is always a risk of dead or bad injury. Indeed, a family friend lost her son recently in a climbing mishap at Yosemite. The risk is there.
 
C

crono1224

Null said:
I've never read a story that made cockfighting or dogfighting seem like art, the way "Death in the Afternoon" does for bullfighting. I guess the main differences are that fighting roosters and fighting dogs usually must be destroyed after their fighting is done, because they are only capable of killing, and that a human does not risk death in a cockfight or dogfight. "A bullfight is the only art in which the artist risks death with every performance" were Hemingway's words, I believe.

That being said, I do not think lethal bullfights are morally right, and the matador knew the risks. Did they put the bull down? That would be surprising - most victorious bulls are put to stud. The Miura ranch in particular produced Murcielago, Islero, and Reventon, all of whom gored matadors fatally / cripplingly and were prized studs because of it. Indeed, almost the entire Lamborghini line is based on fighting bulls.

Am I mistaken in thinking the Portugeuse method of bullfighting is essentially "counting coup" on a bull - running up to it and slapping it's flanks, before getting away? That seems a less cruel method of doing it, while still preserving the element of courage.

Bullfighting, in a lot of ways, is like many other extreme sports, except there is more art to it. There is always a risk of dead or bad injury. Indeed, a family friend lost her son recently in a climbing mishap at Yosemite. The risk is there.
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I think its more of what is done to make the bull so aggressive in the ring. Bull Fighting Facts, whether or not those are all accurate or maybe differ from place to place, I feel fairly comfortable that bulls are not completely naturally that aggressive, in every fight.

Also it stated that the bull was put down.
 
Null

Null

That's very surprising. A victorious bull is usually put out to stud. Also, that site is about as accurate as your average PETA/abstinence program pamphlet, it's not a good source.
 
David

David

Yeah, sorry, but that facts page should have a "Citation Needed." Not that the fact that bulls are mistreated is shocking news, but it's hard to take anything from somebody who seriously puts Peta in their links at face-value.
 
Calleja

Calleja

Hey, I come from a country where both cock AND bull fighting are legal!!

Yayyy!!!

Soliloquy said:


At the same time, I don't have the same aversion to bullfighting that some people have.

My logic is: if you're going to be killed and eaten anyway, wouldn't you want a shot at the person who's going to kill you?
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What? Dude, bulls aren't eaten... Bulls that aren't raised for fighting usually are for mating. So, no, they're not getting to defend themselves when they were gonna be eaten anyway.. they were robbed from a life of fucking and eating all day.
 
Null

Null

crono1224;389928][QUOTE=Null said:
That's very surprising. A victorious bull is usually put out to stud. Also, that site is about as accurate as your average PETA/abstinence program pamphlet, it's not a good source.
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http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=64
and
http://www.runningofthenudes.com/bullfighting_facts.asp

Both of which cite sources.[/QUOTE]

Nonspecific studies, anonymous anecdotes reported in newspaper articles, and other animal activist websites are not strong sources.
 
Calleja

Calleja

Dude... bulls that kill and/or maim bullfighters are ALWAYS destroyed these days. Because.. y'know.. they killed and/or maimed a human being. Even bullfighting has had PC-ness injected. Even if its contradictory.

I'm speaking by personal experience*... this is true of at least Mexico. I can't be as sure for Spain, but I'd bet it's the same.


*: A political branch of my family is an important supplier of big-ass bulls for Arena Mexico.
 
Null

Null

The Mex said:
Dude... bulls that kill and/or maim bullfighters are ALWAYS destroyed these days. Because.. y'know.. they killed and/or maimed a human being. Even bullfighting has had PC-ness injected. Even if its contradictory.

I'm speaking by personal experience*... this is true of at least Mexico. I can't be as sure for Spain, but I'd bet it's the same.


*: A political branch of my family is an important supplier of big-ass bulls for Arena Mexico.
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That kind of defeats the point, then.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Spanish bulls are bred to be mean, actually they are not bred to be docile. 80 years a go the Longhorn in America that had 400+ years of natural selection were some of the meanest/toughest animals on the planet. Now Longhorns are bred to be pretty. A Jersey Cow is bred to be docile, and supply milk. Many people have the opinion that all cattle are as docile as the current cows that are in the food industry. So they think that the fighting bulls have to be especially mistreated to make them want to fight.

It is not like the North American Rodeo where they tie a bull's balls up so he is ready to buck the rider off. If you ever watch one, as soon as the rider is off a horseman or clown will remove the strap, and the bull will happily walk out of the arena.
 
Null

Null

The Mex said:
Yeah. I'm not sure if the original point was a good one to begin with... but yeah, I see what you mean too.
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Agreed. I just mean if you're going to raise fighting bulls, and fight them, it shouldn't be a death sentence for them to occasionally win.
 
tegid

tegid

The Mex said:
Hey, I come from a country where both cock AND bull fighting are legal!!

Yayyy!!!

Soliloquy said:


At the same time, I don't have the same aversion to bullfighting that some people have.

My logic is: if you're going to be killed and eaten anyway, wouldn't you want a shot at the person who's going to kill you?
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What? Dude, bulls aren't eaten... Bulls that aren't raised for fighting usually are for mating. So, no, they're not getting to defend themselves when they were gonna be eaten anyway.. they were robbed from a life of fucking and eating all day.
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What? They are eaten and their meat is expensive!
Or so I've heard.
 
Null

Null

A fighting bull would taste awful - it'd be all stringy and tough.

Steers, which are the source of beef, are castrated. This helps them put on bulk. A bull can be massive, but it's not soft bulk, it's angry muscle.
 
Rob King

Rob King

I'm not particularly sure where I stand on animal cruelty. On one hand, I hate the thought of factory farms where animals only live in distress for the entirety of their lives from uterus to slaughterhouse. On the other hand, bullfights (or cockfights, or dog fights, or camel wrestling for that matter) don't bother me that much, and are actually things I would like to witness before I die.

I can't even pretend to reconcile the two opinions, but there it is.
 
S

Soliloquy

And then they fight to the death. And die if they win.

Of course, the way that bullfighting bulls are treated (as opposed to, say, dogfighting dogs), is part of the reason I'm not as heavily against the sport as I am other animal-fighting sports, like bear-baiting. Or pokemon.

This is assuming that those pre-fight abuse claims are false, of course. If I see good evidence that it's true, I'll likely change my opinion.
 
Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
I doubt bullfighting is more culturally offensive to us than homelessness or PDA are to many other cultures. We don't get to set the moral standards for the world. And hell, its not like we don't eat meat. I would say a bullfighting bull gets a much better life than a factory farmed bull. As long as the Bull has a fighting chance I have no problem with it, that said I don't think he should be killed if he wins. It should be like in Gladiator. He should be set free. Or put out to stud (assuming they aren't neutered)
 
Calleja

Calleja

Traditionally they ARE supposed to be put out to stud.

That won't fly these days, though. Cause a bull that wins means he's maimed or killed a human being. So they're destroyed for that.


I know.... I know.
 
Calleja

Calleja

I'm not, I'm QUOTING myself... which is maybe even douchier, granted, but there's really no other answer. It IS stupid. As hell.
 
Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
The only sport I really have a problem with is dogfighting, but that's also because that is one of the only animals I would never never never eat. They are too connected to humans.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

The difference between bullfighting and dogfighting is that one involves humans doping the fighting... while the other is forcing the animals to kill each other...
 
Necronic

Necronic

Staff member
That's true, but I would have as much problem with people fighting dogs.

Edit: And I have no problem with cockfighting. I don't think it should be legal in America, but I have no problem with other countries doing it.
 
tegid

tegid

Yep! Apparently now some guys in Madrid want to declare Bullfighting 'of national interest' which would nullify this last law :mad:

EDIT: Heh, this is explained in the article. Nevermind...
 
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