Tea Party: Racist or Victims of Racism?

[Covar]

Affirmative Action isn't racist.

This I'd love to hear.

 

[Chazwozel]

Affirmative Action isn't racist.

This I'd love to hear.[/QUOTE]


Affirmative action states that all employers do not discriminate against potential employees regardless of gender, race, or religion. How is this racist?

---------- Post added at 07:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 AM ----------

2) There are racist bigots IN the Tea Party, much like there are racist bigots in the NAACP (though unlike the Tea Party, the NAACP is inherently racist, but not necessarily bigoted)

You're kidding me, right?

Truthiness: Gas has got it.

Racism:
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

The NAACP isn't inherently racist, Gas. It was founded as a reaction to racism. Same goes for the Black Panthers.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored Peoples. It's "fighting racism with racism," thus inherently racist. You can argue if you want that it's "good racism" (or if you want to really be appropriate, "it's not racism when WE do it"), but it's still racism.

How is the NAACP fighting racism with racism? How is fighting for civil rights and equality a racist thing? Your argument that the NAACP is racist is akin to calling the Gay and Lesbian alliance a hate group because it promotes giving homosexuals equal rights. They're not promoting anything in regards to persecutions towards whites or any other race, unlike for instance the KKK. The NAACP exists as a front to protect the civil rights of black people. That's all. They don't make any claims that black people are better than everyone else.

Racism doesn't JUST mean "we think this race is better than that race," it means discrimination on the basis of race. The NAACP favors discrimination in favor of a race. For example - Affirmative Action.

If something isn't racist, it would call for all judgements and decisions to be made regardless of skin color, not because of it. You know, kind of like Martin Luther King thought would be nice.

Affirmative Action isn't racist.

A requirement that demands you must hire so many people of a certain skin color, regardless of their ability or the availability of a better suited candidate of another ethnicity is the very definition of racist.

Here's a simple test... if you can take any given sentence, swap the words "black" and "white" and suddenly it sounds racist... it was racist to begin with.

If you don't agree with that, you fail at brain use.[/QUOTE]

You can actually thank Richard Nixon for the implementation of racial quotas. They are associated with affirmative action, but they're not the same thing.

 

[Bubble181]

You're using a weird definition of "affirmative action". I agree AA isn't the same as racial quotas, but the words themselves sum up the point: take action to affirm the status of coloured people (or women, or whoever it's affirmative towards).
It's hiring a black guy because he's black, to prove that he's not lesser than his white counterparts (or yellow, or green, or purple with little green dots.)
Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
It's simple: tests have proven, and continue to prove, that people with exactly the same credentials and such are more likely to be hired under a name like John Mathewson than under a name like Muhammed Al Mustafa. This is wrong. That's why many government appointments (in Belgium) are completely abstracted away from the person applying for the job. This has a lot of other problems, but anyway, that's a different rant.
We won't be racist anymore once Muhammed and John have the exact same chance of being hired; when it doesn't have to be taken away from the people applying just to make it fairer. Hiring Mustafa because it looks good to have a couple of brown faces in your store, or because you need to have x% of immigrants, or whatever, is bad.
I've actually known someone who was hired just to use as an excuse. Female, 50+something immigrant woman without even a high school degree. She pretty much filled al lthe boxes; the onyl thing she could've done to improve herself was to go blind or something.

 

[tegid]

Positive discrimination is bad, but it's the lesser of two evils, innit?

 

[Covar]

So was Stalin.

BOOM! Godwin'd!

 

[Bubble181]

I know quite a few people who'd argue that Stalin wasn't the lesser evil compared to Hitler. Sure is responsible for more deaths and a longer-lasting oppression of foreign parts.
But lets' not go there :-P

 

[Chazwozel]

You're using a weird definition of "affirmative action". I agree AA isn't the same as racial quotas, but the words themselves sum up the point: take action to affirm the status of coloured people (or women, or whoever it's affirmative towards).
It's hiring a black guy because he's black, to prove that he's not lesser than his white counterparts (or yellow, or green, or purple with little green dots.)
Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
It's simple: tests have proven, and continue to prove, that people with exactly the same credentials and such are more likely to be hired under a name like John Mathewson than under a name like Muhammed Al Mustafa. This is wrong. That's why many government appointments (in Belgium) are completely abstracted away from the person applying for the job. This has a lot of other problems, but anyway, that's a different rant.
We won't be racist anymore once Muhammed and John have the exact same chance of being hired; when it doesn't have to be taken away from the people applying just to make it fairer. Hiring Mustafa because it looks good to have a couple of brown faces in your store, or because you need to have x% of immigrants, or whatever, is bad.
I've actually known someone who was hired just to use as an excuse. Female, 50+something immigrant woman without even a high school degree. She pretty much filled al lthe boxes; the onyl thing she could've done to improve herself was to go blind or something.

I'm using the definition of Affirmative Action. Equality and anti-discrimination in the job place. Nixon's administration kicked off racial quotas (with good reason mind you) to force unions to accept a certain percentage of blacks. Racial quotas are the result of on-going racism in the workplace to maintain the image of compliance with affirmative action policy. In short, it's an easier way for a company to get around discrimination. They can still hire 10 "John Smiths" to two "Jamal Browns" and claim they have diversity in the work place; that everyone gets a fair chance at the job.

Of course, the hard right always thinks everyone's trying to bring the white man down, and everyone's TEKIN OUR JERBS! So, no, affirmative action isn't racist, the people that try and circumvent what it attempts to do pretty much are. And of course, the ol' propaganda story of two people being equally qualified for a job (one black and one white) and the black guy getting it because he's black, is a great example of people trying to simplify a complicated issue into an easy to digest and spread around parable. It's really the stupidest argument against Affirmative Action. It misguides people into thinking that in every instance a black guy "steals" a job from a white guy, which is utter bullshit.

If I personally lost out to a job due racial quotas, I'd shrug my shoulders and explore one of my other hundreds of avenues because I'm white and a male. Life for me ain't so bad.

 

[sixpackshaker]

I know quite a few people who'd argue that Stalin wasn't the lesser evil compared to Hitler. Sure is responsible for more deaths and a longer-lasting oppression of foreign parts.
But lets' not go there :-P

Right, the people that do not see Stalin as the lesser of two evils are Nazis and Republicans.

 

[Bubble181]

Or people who lived in Eastern Russia and have been occupied by Communist Russia for 20+years.
Considering Hitler the end-all be-all bad guy is a very Western thing. Stalin didn't have death camps, but the Gulags weren't better than the concentration camps (notice the difference between the two). Stalin forced whole ethnicities to move, and forced "real" Russians to settle in regions where other ethnicities were in the majority so they could be controlled. He deported millions, millions died or disappeared. All historians agree the Communist regime is responsible for far more deaths than the Nazi regime. Of course, they had 10x as long to do it in, too. And, like i said, Hitler literally tried to exterminate an ethnicity, Stalin (mostly) stuck to deporting them to the middle of Siberia or forcing them into second-rank-citizenship.
I'm not saying Stalin is worse than Hitler, I'm just saying it's something not everyone would agree on as readily as you might think. Go ask plenty of Ukrainians or Kirghizi, see what they think.

 

[Espy]

If I personally lost out to a job due racial quotas, I'd shrug my shoulders and explore one of my other hundreds of avenues because I'm white and a male. Life for me ain't so bad.

 

[GasBandit]

I'm using the definition of Affirmative Action.

Not according to wikipedia and dictionary.reference.com you're not.

A term referring to various government policies that aim to increase the proportion of African-Americans, women, and other minorities in jobs and educational institutions historically dominated by white men. The policies usually require employers and institutions to set goals for hiring or admitting minorities.

Affirmative action refers to policies that take factors including "race, color, religion, sex or national origin"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#cite_note-The_Federal_Register-0 into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group

If I personally lost out to a job due racial quotas, I'd shrug my shoulders and explore one of my other hundreds of avenues because I'm white and a male. Life for me ain't so bad.

And once again, we see that what rules your assertions is your own subjectivity.

 

[Chazwozel]

Really the only white males that have any right to complain are blue collar workers and white trash (sometimes goes hand in hand). But according to Libertarian philosophy they're white trash because they haven't picked themselves up by the bootstraps. It's their own fault.

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

I'm using the definition of Affirmative Action.

Not according to wikipedia and dictionary.reference.com you're not.

A term referring to various government policies that aim to increase the proportion of African-Americans, women, and other minorities in jobs and educational institutions historically dominated by white men. The policies usually require employers and institutions to set goals for hiring or admitting minorities.

Affirmative action refers to policies that take factors including "race, color, religion, sex or national origin" into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group

If I personally lost out to a job due racial quotas, I'd shrug my shoulders and explore one of my other hundreds of avenues because I'm white and a male. Life for me ain't so bad.

And once again, we see that what rules your assertions is your own subjectivity.[/QUOTE]


Ah! I see your problem. You have tunnel vision!

Affirmative action refers to policies that take factors including "race, color, religion, sex or national origin"[1] into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group, usually as a means to counter the effects of a history of discrimination. The focus of such policies ranges from employment and education to public contracting and health programs. “Affirmative action” is action taken to increase the representation of women and minorities in areas of employment, education, and business from which they have been historically excluded.[2]
The term "affirmative action" originated in the United States, and first appeared in President John F. Kennedy's Executive Order 10925. The term was used to refer to measures to achieve non-discrimination. In 1965, President Lyndon Johnson issued Executive Order 11246 which required federal contractors to take "affirmative action" to hire without regard to race, religion and national origin. In 1968, gender was added to the anti-discrimination list.[3] Matching procedures in other countries are also known as reservation in India, positive discrimination in the United Kingdom and employment equity in Canada.

It helps to read the whole fucking thing, Gas ol' buddy; not cut it down into Fox News bite sized quotes.

Affirmative action

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–noun the encouragement of increased representation of women and minority-group members, esp. in employment.


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Origin:
1960–65

—Related forms af·firm·a·tive-ac·tion, adjective





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World English Dictionary
affirmative action

— n
( US ) Brit equivalent: positive discrimination a policy or programme designed to counter discrimination against minority groupsand women in areas such as employmentand education




Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source

affirmative action
n. A policy or a program that seeks to redress past discrimination through active measures to ensure equal opportunity, as in education and employment.

 

[GasBandit]

... and then after all that, as you noted earlier, the quotas were added in, so for the majority of its lifespan AND for the entire time you have been alive, it has meant quotas and reverse discrimination.

 

[Chazwozel]

... and then after all that, as you noted earlier, the quotas were added in, so for the majority of its lifespan AND for the entire time you have been alive, it has meant quotas and reverse discrimination.

I swear...

The quotas exist as an extension of racism. They are not part of the Affirmative Action policy, they are sets of quotas enacted by the government and companies as an easy way to monitor discrimination. They are a cop out that exists due to the fact that racism is still alive and well. Discrimination is still very much a part of the job application process. When that ceases to exist, the need for quotas will too.


You're doing it again. You're taking a complex issue and dumbing it down Fox News style.

 

[GasBandit]

... and then after all that, as you noted earlier, the quotas were added in, so for the majority of its lifespan AND for the entire time you have been alive, it has meant quotas and reverse discrimination.

I swear...

The quotas exist as an extension of racism. They are not part of the Affirmative Action policy, they are sets of quotas enacted by the government and companies as an easy way to monitor discrimination. They are a cop out that exists due to the fact that racism is still alive and well. Discrimination is still very much a part of the job application process. When that ceases to exist, the need for quotas will too.[/QUOTE]

Their method of enaction has inextricably linked them to Affirmative Action. Whenever someone is talking about "affirmative action" in any sort of discussion, they are de facto talking about quotas. Your argument is tantamount to insisting that gay means happy, and that homosexuality is not part of being gay.

As for discrimination, the fact that you feel it is justified does not mean that quotas are not inherently racist. As the brits put it, it's just "positive discrimination," or as those of us who call spades such... "reverse racism."

 

[Covar]

I know quite a few people who'd argue that Stalin wasn't the lesser evil compared to Hitler. Sure is responsible for more deaths and a longer-lasting oppression of foreign parts.
But lets' not go there :-P

Right, the people that do not see Stalin as the lesser of two evils are Nazis and Republicans.[/QUOTE]

To both you and Bubble:

Just because something is the lesser of two evils doesn't make it ok.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

I hate the term "reverse" racism. Guess what people, what you are referring to is still racism. Reverse racism is the exact opposite of what you are referring to.

 

[sixpackshaker]

I know quite a few people who'd argue that Stalin wasn't the lesser evil compared to Hitler. Sure is responsible for more deaths and a longer-lasting oppression of foreign parts.
But lets' not go there :-P

Right, the people that do not see Stalin as the lesser of two evils are Nazis and Republicans.[/QUOTE]

To both you and Bubble:

Just because something is the lesser of two evils doesn't make it ok.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

I hate the term "reverse" racism. Guess what people, what you are referring to is still racism. Reverse racism is the exact opposite of what you are referring to.[/QUOTE]

I don't have time to redraw your graph...

Joke


..........................................................you.



Reverse Racism is exactly the opposite of Racism.

 

[crono1224]

Question are the hiring policies based upon either the population % of the whole country and/or the specific population % of that area, or is it just based on having a certain percent of all workers being any race. Cause that seems a little unfair if hypothetically there are 5% blacks, but there is required to be 30+% in the work place.

 

[sixpackshaker]

There is a story that went around when I was working in the oilfield. A man from an equal employment rights agency told an oilfield contractor that his business needs to have 10% Hispanic and 10% African American employees. So the business operator walked out into the warehouse that morning and fired half of his employees and hired whites to fill their roles.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

There is a story that went around when I was working in the oilfield. A man from an equal employment rights agency told an oilfield contractor that his business needs to have 10% Hispanic and 10% African American employees. So the business operator walked out into the warehouse that morning and fired half of his employees and hired whites to fill their roles.

This never happened.

 

[Chazwozel]

Question are the hiring policies based upon either the population % of the whole country and/or the specific population % of that area, or is it just based on having a certain percent of all workers being any race. Cause that seems a little unfair if hypothetically there are 5% blacks, but there is required to be 30+% in the work place.

The percentage of minorities in high end jobs drops dramatically as you go up the payscale, so don't worry that scary looking black guy isn't really competing for your white collar job.

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

There is a story that went around when I was working in the oilfield. A man from an equal employment rights agency told an oilfield contractor that his business needs to have 10% Hispanic and 10% African American employees. So the business operator walked out into the warehouse that morning and fired half of his employees and hired whites to fill their roles.

This never happened.[/QUOTE]

This is what bigots like to gather round and tell each other so they can drive themselves into a stupor over how they're more disadvantaged than the scary black people, and of course HOW DER TAKIN OUR JERBS DERP BA DERP!

 

[sixpackshaker]

Question are the hiring policies based upon either the population % of the whole country and/or the specific population % of that area, or is it just based on having a certain percent of all workers being any race. Cause that seems a little unfair if hypothetically there are 5% blacks, but there is required to be 30+% in the work place.

The percentage of minorities in high end jobs drops dramatically as you go up the payscale, so don't worry that scary looking black guy isn't really competing for your white collar job.

---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

There is a story that went around when I was working in the oilfield. A man from an equal employment rights agency told an oilfield contractor that his business needs to have 10% Hispanic and 10% African American employees. So the business operator walked out into the warehouse that morning and fired half of his employees and hired whites to fill their roles.

This never happened.[/QUOTE]

This is what bigots like to gather round and tell each other so they can drive themselves into a stupor over how they're more disadvantaged than the scary black people, and of course HOW DER TAKIN OUR JERBS DERP BA DERP![/QUOTE]

It is more of a morality tale, where you need to be careful of what you ask for.

---------- Post added at 07:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

There is a story that went around when I was working in the oilfield. A man from an equal employment rights agency told an oilfield contractor that his business needs to have 10% Hispanic and 10% African American employees. So the business operator walked out into the warehouse that morning and fired half of his employees and hired whites to fill their roles.

This never happened.[/QUOTE]

Actually the story that went around had the name of the contractor, I worked for him one winter, and he was a sorry son of a bitch that would likely do it. It is unverified, that is why it is labeled as a story.

 

[Krisken]

Yeah, I think I'm missing the point of that story. Sounds more like a racist revenge story to me.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Also, it's factually incorrect. Every single sort of quota or % like that is always referred to as "at least".

 

[Krisken]

ACLU would be all over that shit.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Also, it's factually incorrect. Every single sort of quota or % like that is always referred to as "at least".

How would that change what happened?

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------

ACLU would be all over that shit.

It is a 1099 job. You show up at his gate with lunch pail and hard hat in hand. If there is work He'll let you in the gate and put you on a work detail. If there is not enough workers, he'll drive down to the local "shade tree" and hire whoever can do the job. There is no guarantee of work, there is not much of an HR department.

If it were true, there is no recourse.

I stuck out like a sore thumb as one of the few white guys in line. So I was stealing immigrants' and alcoholics' jobs.

 

[tegid]

Well duh, of course it doesn't. But when there's a dichotomy, when you have to choose one or the other you have to choose the lesser one.

 

[crono1224]

Question are the hiring policies based upon either the population % of the whole country and/or the specific population % of that area, or is it just based on having a certain percent of all workers being any race. Cause that seems a little unfair if hypothetically there are 5% blacks, but there is required to be 30+% in the work place.

The percentage of minorities in high end jobs drops dramatically as you go up the payscale, so don't worry that scary looking black guy isn't really competing for your white collar job.[/QUOTE]

What do I care, my complaint is that if they make up the same percent of the work staff as they do the total population or of the areas population, then how is it discrimination, it is merely numbers.

 

[Dave]

The Tea Party isn't racist...unless you consider the leader and chairman of the movement, Mark Williams, calling Muslims worshipers "the terrorists' monkey God" racist.

Okay, they are racist.

---------- Post added at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

Tea Party leader Mark Williams says Muslims worship a 'monkey god', blasts Ground Zero mosque

 

[Krisken]

Well yeah, he is racist. But again, there are so many groups that identify themselves at Tea Party which aren't affiliated with each other (some even hating the other groups) that you can't judge all the followers based on the founder.

Yup, Mark Williams is an asshole.

 

[Espy]

The Tea Party isn't racist...unless you consider the leader and chairman of the movement, Mark Williams, calling Muslims worshipers "the terrorists' monkey God" racist.

Okay, they are racist.

---------- Post added at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

Tea Party leader Mark Williams says Muslims worship a 'monkey god', blasts Ground Zero mosque

Uh... The party's over: Tea Partyers finally expel bigot from their movement

Tuesday, July 20th 2010, 4:00 AM
The Tea Party Federation, an alliance of 85 organizations dedicated to a small-government, low-tax philosophy that has gained a national following, has chosen to have no further truck with one of most its visible - and vile - members.

They kicked him out almost a month ago, in fact the actual thread topic was about an article talking about them kicking him out. Painting a, what, few hundred thousand + people who most have zero connection to this guy as "racist" over his comments seems... rash.

 

[Dave]

My mistake, then. I had no idea this was the guy who was gone. Carry on.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Your post was week, Dave.


Last month.



Um...