Wikilieaks, how far is too far?

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C

Chibibar

Well... Wikileaks isn't own/operate in the U.S. so why should they care what damage they do to the U.S?

Maybe their goals is to make U.S. look bad in the public eyes.
They shouldn't. But we shouldn't lump these guys in with others who have done the legwork to expose corruption and illegal behavior that has happened in governments.[/QUOTE]

I am not lumping wikileaks to whistleblowers and such. I was answering the question on "why" wikileaks are doing it.

I'm just saying that one of the "why" (my guess) is that they want to make U.S. look bad.
 
Thanks Den, I was having trouble finding the link which explained the wikileaks/state department communication.

I'm still not convinced what they are doing is 'terrorist'. That kind of language gets thrown around a hell of a lot.
 
I'm not for Wikileaks being labeled a terrorist organization either. That seems a bit extreme. I don't think we should just sit around with a thumb up our butts and say "Hey, if you want to disclose our secrets all willy nilly go right ahead! You're doing us a favor by providing government transparency." We should do what we can to stop it.
 
They had to get these cables somehow. Whoever that is better run, and keep running. And hope the Feds catch him before any of a number of others catch up to them. If they're lucky, they can get sent up for life. Then they can say hello to the Walker family for me, and they can all rot in hell forever.
 
C

Chibibar

They had to get these cables somehow. Whoever that is better run, and keep running. And hope the Feds catch him before any of a number of others catch up to them. If they're lucky, they can get sent up for life. Then they can say hello to the Walker family for me, and they can all rot in hell forever.
That is what I'm thinking. What I am wondering is that WHY IN THE HELL THESE DOCUMENTS ARE KEPT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!?!

And why in the heck are in the SAME place?? Have you notice that wikileaks are getting them in bulks (200k is a bulk to me) that is a lot of documents in electronic form (I doubt they got the actual documents)
 
C

Chibibar

Lawyer: Assange is being persecuted in Sweden - Yahoo! News

Interesting. The swedish government has issue international alert for his arrest BUT here is an interesting thing. There isn't an official formal allegation. (of course this is from the Lawyer which I'm sure the lawyer is following the rules) yea... the wikileak founder has gone a little too far, but I think this is a bit "fishy" I know the article said it is "not" related, but I'm sure my tin foil hat says so other wise ;)
 
Assange is wanted on suspicion of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion. The exact nature of the allegations aren't completely clear because formal charges have not been filed.
You don't have to be formally charged to start the process. Further, these cases have been winding their way through the Swedish courts for months now. He's known of the allegations for some time (which is why he left Sweden to go to London) but the prosecutor has not yet filed charges for some reason (and there are lots of good reasons to wait some time before filing charges).

It may well be that the recent alerts in both London and Sweden are precipitated by the recent leaks, but the cases are ongoing investigations that started long before this latest set of leaks.
 
C

Chibibar

Assange is wanted on suspicion of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion. The exact nature of the allegations aren't completely clear because formal charges have not been filed.
You don't have to be formally charged to start the process. Further, these cases have been winding their way through the Swedish courts for months now. He's known of the allegations for some time (which is why he left Sweden to go to London) but the prosecutor has not yet filed charges for some reason (and there are lots of good reasons to wait some time before filing charges).

It may well be that the recent alerts in both London and Sweden are precipitated by the recent leaks, but the cases are ongoing investigations that started long before this latest set of leaks.
Yea. I was following it for a bit, it is kinda interesting that this surface much much later when the event occur. (I think it was like weeks later) which was interesting. normally this stuff get reported asap.
 
Are they STILL going after him on those bogus rape charges? He was having consensual sex with two women who freaked out and called rape when they found out he wasn't being faithful to ether one of them. That's why they haven't charged him with anything: They still don't know if they can make the charges stick, because it's legally unclear if he actually did anything wrong.
 
C

Chibibar

Are they STILL going after him on those bogus rape charges? He was having consensual sex with two women who freaked out and called rape when they found out he wasn't being faithful to ether one of them. That's why they haven't charged him with anything: They still don't know if they can make the charges stick, because it's legally unclear if he actually did anything wrong.
That is the only thing they got him on so far. That is why I think there is more to this "charge" The Swedish government doesn't want to officially charge him for the wikileaks (again.... my personal conspiracy theory) so they want him to be brought in physically and then go from there.
 
J

Jiarn

He should have just had sex with them both at the same time. That would have solved that.
 
Are they STILL going after him on those bogus rape charges? He was having consensual sex with two women who freaked out and called rape when they found out he wasn't being faithful to ether one of them.
But their complaints stem from his condom use (or misuse, or lack thereof). If the allegations are true, there is a basis for a rape charge, even if they didn't immediately go to police, and even if they only did it after they found each other out, and even if the prosecutor is doing everything in their power to get the women to testify for whatever external reasons the prosecutor may have.

If it didn't happen, then the charges need to be dropped.

If it did happen, he needs to be prosecuted - a consensual act turned into a non-consensual act. Even if he's a high-profile character caught in the cross-sights of the US and other nations he has put into danger (the US is not the only country at the throat of wikileaks).
 
But their complaints stem from his condom use (or misuse, or lack thereof). If the allegations are true, there is a basis for a rape charge, even if they didn't immediately go to police, and even if they only did it after they found each other out, and even if the prosecutor is doing everything in their power to get the women to testify for whatever external reasons the prosecutor may have.
I'm pretty sure they can't prove he purposefully split that condom or mislead the other woman into think he was wearing one without a confession on his part... which means they really have no case at all. If they didn't need it, he'd have been charged. This seems more like a planned opportunity for INTERPOL to bring him to one of their facilities and then let the CIA/FBI wait outside to drag him to the US after they are done wasting his time.
 
I'll admit, my nerves go a little on end when I hear about new leaks from the site... luckily certain things haven't been exposed yet...
 
I'm pretty sure they can't prove he purposefully split that condom or mislead the other woman into think he was wearing one without a confession on his part... which means they really have no case at all.
Various articles suggest that at some point during the act the woman told him to stop due to the condom issue, and he did not. While the condom usage may have been the reason for saying stop, the fact that she did not want him to continue and he refused to stop constitutes rape. It appears that both women had a similar experience in this regard.

While they may not have a strong case, that is no reason to give up on the case.
 
Various articles suggest that at some point during the act the woman told him to stop due to the condom issue, and he did not. While the condom usage may have been the reason for saying stop, the fact that she did not want him to continue and he refused to stop constitutes rape. It appears that both women had a similar experience in this regard.

While they may not have a strong case, that is no reason to give up on the case.
Perhaps, but the fact that they haven't charged him still shows that they lack faith in their case. I doubt they'd even be doing it if he wasn't making waves.
 
the fact that they haven't charged him still shows that they lack faith in their case.
All it shows is that they want to question him prior to charging him. True, if they had a very strong case then they'd charge him right now, but the lack of formal charges does not indicate guilt or non-guilt, nor even the strength of their case. There are good reasons to delay formal charges even with a strong case - especially in situations where you expect the criminal to flee once formal charges are made.
 
From that article it looks like the USA is going to try and charge him with espionage... between that and the Interpol alert... this dude is in trouble (honestly... what did he expect?)
 
C

Chibibar

From that article it looks like the USA is going to try and charge him with espionage... between that and the Interpol alert... this dude is in trouble (honestly... what did he expect?)
The U.S. may charge him for espionage, but probably going to wait until he shows up in Sweden and get hand over by the Swedish government.
 
I'm guessing he'll never be brought in but will die in an accident sooner or later.

In any case, wikileaks is going too far, but I must admit, it is interesting stuff to read. Gives a new/better insight in how governments act.
 
Some conflicting information, including a statement from Robert Gates.

Officials may be overstating the danger from WikiLeaks | McClatchy

Gates on Leaks, Wiki and Otherwise - NYTimes.com

EDIT: Oh, and because folks were interested in a non-crazy direct defense of Wikileaks (unlike the more nuanced Greenwald post I linked before). Overseeing state secrecy: In defence of WikiLeaks | The Economist
 
C

crono1224

That will do a lot of good, he isn't the only reason wikileaks exist and without him I doubt it would die so it would solve nothing except maybe getting them more press.
 
I'm sure we can all agree that he doesn't deserve a price on his head. That's equating him to ACTUAL terrorists... you know, the kind that willfully and intentionally try and kill people?
There are those who believe that the leaks earlier this year naming civil informants in Afghanistan is just as bad.
 
Interpol Puts WikiLeaks Founder On Wanted List : NPR

Hmm, I find it rather interesting that a man with no prior criminal offenses is all of a sudden a wanted rapist/sexual deviant.
Or when the women saw his face all over the news and internet, the recognized him and asked the police to press charges again.

Most rape cases along these lines are he said, she said, nightmares and there are a few guys in prison because of just one victim's testimony.
 
I'm sure we can all agree that he doesn't deserve a price on his head. That's equating him to ACTUAL terrorists... you know, the kind that willfully and intentionally try and kill people?
There are those who believe that the leaks earlier this year naming civil informants in Afghanistan is just as bad.[/QUOTE]

So let me get this straight... you believe that the guy who accidentally revealed the names of civil informants in Afghanistan due to an honest oversight (and he's admitted that it was a mistake not to redact those) is as bad as the guys who train, finance, arm, and order extremist groups to kill Americans, Israelis, and anyone who stands in their way? That's not just dishonest... that's insane.
 
I'm sure we can all agree that he doesn't deserve a price on his head. That's equating him to ACTUAL terrorists... you know, the kind that willfully and intentionally try and kill people?
There are those who believe that the leaks earlier this year naming civil informants in Afghanistan is just as bad.[/QUOTE]

So let me get this straight... you believe that the guy who accidentally revealed the names of civil informants in Afghanistan due to an honest oversight (and he's admitted that it was a mistake not to redact those) is as bad as the guys who train, finance, arm, and order extremist groups to kill Americans, Israelis, and anyone who stands in their way? That's not just dishonest... that's insane.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying that a person who aids and abets terrorists by providing them the means of eliminating spies is better than the terrorist that uses that information?

Sure, everything is on a scale, but your argument seems to suggest that the person who does that should not come under condemnation.

There's a difference between an "honest mistake" and releasing classified materials that directly results in murder of those trying to help us. At best he was grossly negligent.

It isn't an issue of standing idly by while a mugger kills their victim. He acted of his own accord to push information that leads the mugger to kill their victim.

Saying that he's sorry, and that he didn't really mean to release some of that information doesn't absolve him of the fact that his actions helped terrorists more than they helped anyone else.
 
K

Kiff

I'm sure we can all agree that he doesn't deserve a price on his head. That's equating him to ACTUAL terrorists... you know, the kind that willfully and intentionally try and kill people?
There are those who believe that the leaks earlier this year naming civil informants in Afghanistan is just as bad.[/QUOTE]

So let me get this straight... you believe that the guy who accidentally revealed the names of civil informants in Afghanistan due to an honest oversight (and he's admitted that it was a mistake not to redact those) is as bad as the guys who train, finance, arm, and order extremist groups to kill Americans, Israelis, and anyone who stands in their way? That's not just dishonest... that's insane.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying that a person who aids and abets terrorists by providing them the means of eliminating spies is better than the terrorist that uses that information?

Sure, everything is on a scale, but your argument seems to suggest that the person who does that should not come under condemnation.

There's a difference between an "honest mistake" and releasing classified materials that directly results in murder of those trying to help us. At best he was grossly negligent.

It isn't an issue of standing idly by while a mugger kills their victim. He acted of his own accord to push information that leads the mugger to kill their victim.

Saying that he's sorry, and that he didn't really mean to release some of that information doesn't absolve him of the fact that his actions helped terrorists more than they helped anyone else.[/QUOTE]

 
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