Wikilieaks, how far is too far?

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crono1224

Whether or not this could use its own thread apparently anon is not happy with the treatment of wikileaks and is DDOSing Post-financial (the place where wikileaks had their money) which was frozen because they faked an address and you can't have an account with them without having an address in the country. Also they are attacking Visa and Mastercard because you can't use them to donate to wikileaks, and later when they get enough people are apparently going to attack paypal. Anon Twitter doubt it will stay up as the first one was already taken down.

I find these anarchist to be highly annoying, they are like a mule with a spinning wheel, no one knows how he got it and damned if he knows how to use it, in terms of if they actually some how succeeded in making world anarchy.

This is exactly what they complain about the censoring of wikileaks and the whatever else yet they respond with childish shit like this.
 
What is news is that Anon actually affected mastercard transactions. Taking down a website is one thing, but affecting financial transactions is a whole 'nother ballgame (even though it's largely due to Mastercard's ineptitude in how they have their services set up).
 
C

crono1224

Anon will actually probably succeed in killing net neutrality by showing that people shouldn't be allowed essentially free reign on the internet. Their fight is stupid and taking down these sites means nothing to the companies. The post finance thing was stupid because wikileaks lied to get that account anyway, and who cares what mastercard and visa do its not essentially your money. They have their choice, and they don't want to participate in funding a website they deem inappropriate.
 
It's quite amusing that you think Anon would even allow Net Neutrality to work. It's even more cute that you think Anon does all it's work "through the internet".

You think the only real life work done is some protests outside of Scientology Churches, playing Rick Astley and holding longcat signs?

If you think for a second that there isn't Anon in high ranking places, with control over alot more than the common person realizes. They've already won.
 

Dave

Staff member
These kinds of cables are what makes Wikileaks great. The other ones that are more dangerous is nature are the ones which we are decrying.
Which ones might those be, specifically?[/QUOTE]

The ones which are exposing closed doors discussions with diplomats from other countries. These will hamper if not completely halt diplomatic attempts with these countries. Granted, right now that may not be affecting very much, but there will be repercussions in the future.
 
J

JONJONAUG

Anon will actually probably succeed in killing net neutrality by showing that people shouldn't be allowed essentially free reign on the internet. Their fight is stupid and taking down these sites means nothing to the companies. The post finance thing was stupid because wikileaks lied to get that account anyway, and who cares what mastercard and visa do its not essentially your money. They have their choice, and they don't want to participate in funding a website they deem inappropriate.
1. Actually a lack of Net Neutrality would make it easier to take down certain sites, not harder.
2. Taking down these sites, even for a short while, can be pretty huge. Especially during the holiday season.
3. These services exist to send money electronically, and it totally is my money that I'm sending.
4. You can donate to the Ku Klux Klan using Visa and Mastercard, it's actually quite easy!
 
C

crono1224

Anon will actually probably succeed in killing net neutrality by showing that people shouldn't be allowed essentially free reign on the internet. Their fight is stupid and taking down these sites means nothing to the companies. The post finance thing was stupid because wikileaks lied to get that account anyway, and who cares what mastercard and visa do its not essentially your money. They have their choice, and they don't want to participate in funding a website they deem inappropriate.
1. Actually a lack of Net Neutrality would make it easier to take down certain sites, not harder.
2. Taking down these sites, even for a short while, can be pretty huge. Especially during the holiday season.
3. These services exist to send money electronically, and it totally is my money that I'm sending.
4. You can donate to the Ku Klux Klan using Visa and Mastercard, it's actually quite easy![/QUOTE]

These sites are more of a minor inconvience their huge money maker is probably made other ways, notice how people were still able to make purchases in stores, taking down the face only serves to annoy the base who have a decent chance of simply being upset by you. It is equivilant to protesting something by not letting regular patrons in, it isn't acceptable and is illegal. Great way to revolt against something you deem wrong by violating millions of people. Also fuck anyone that says change credit cards, I get mine through my bank and it has nice everything I don't want to change.

It is not your money per se, you can send money other ways, by mail by your own personal carrier, these services exist to make sending money either. However they can still deny sending your money to illegal organisations or ones they deem not acceptable, it is then your decision to choose another service (much like I could change credit cards if i felt they were doing something wrong).

Forth Ku Kluk Klan is protected by the First Amendment, wikileaks shows illegally obtained classified information, there is a big difference. Don't try to fill the discussion with such emotionally charged but irrelevant stuff. Also they could have determined that less people are strangely against the Ku Kluk Klan than Wikileaks, or perhaps they just don't realize.
 
J

JONJONAUG

These sites are more of a minor inconvience their huge money maker is probably made other ways, notice how people were still able to make purchases in stores, taking down the face only serves to annoy the base who have a decent chance of simply being upset by you. It is equivilant to protesting something by not letting regular patrons in, it isn't acceptable and is illegal. Great way to revolt against something you deem wrong by violating millions of people. Also fuck anyone that says change credit cards, I get mine through my bank and it has nice everything I don't want to change.
Oh god, internet sit-ins are violating me.

It is not your money per se, you can send money other ways, by mail by your own personal carrier, these services exist to make sending money either. However they can still deny sending your money to illegal organisations or ones they deem not acceptable, it is then your decision to choose another service (much like I could change credit cards if i felt they were doing something wrong).
How is it not my money? I use Visa, so I should be able to use a service created to send money electronically to send money electronically. Visa and Mastercard have a virtual duopoly on an international scale, so I don't have much of an option here!

Forth Ku Kluk Klan is protected by the First Amendment, wikileaks shows illegally obtained classified information, there is a big difference. Don't try to fill the discussion with such emotionally charged but irrelevant stuff. Also they could have determined that less people are strangely against the Ku Kluk Klan than Wikileaks, or perhaps they just don't realize.
Wikileaks is also protected by the first amendment, see New York Times Co. v. United States.
 
C

crono1224

These sites are more of a minor inconvience their huge money maker is probably made other ways, notice how people were still able to make purchases in stores, taking down the face only serves to annoy the base who have a decent chance of simply being upset by you. It is equivilant to protesting something by not letting regular patrons in, it isn't acceptable and is illegal. Great way to revolt against something you deem wrong by violating millions of people. Also fuck anyone that says change credit cards, I get mine through my bank and it has nice everything I don't want to change.
Oh god, internet sit-ins are violating me.

It is not your money per se, you can send money other ways, by mail by your own personal carrier, these services exist to make sending money either. However they can still deny sending your money to illegal organisations or ones they deem not acceptable, it is then your decision to choose another service (much like I could change credit cards if i felt they were doing something wrong).
How is it not my money? I use Visa, so I should be able to use a service created to send money electronically to send money electronically. Visa and Mastercard have a virtual duopoly on an international scale, so I don't have much of an option here!

Forth Ku Kluk Klan is protected by the First Amendment, wikileaks shows illegally obtained classified information, there is a big difference. Don't try to fill the discussion with such emotionally charged but irrelevant stuff. Also they could have determined that less people are strangely against the Ku Kluk Klan than Wikileaks, or perhaps they just don't realize.
Wikileaks is also protected by the first amendment, see New York Times Co. v. United States.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough on the illegality, though it is still the credit cards choice.

They aren't telling you how to spend your money they are saying they won't allow you to use their services to finance something they deem inappropriate.
 
They aren't telling you how to spend your money they are saying they won't allow you to use their services to finance something they deem inappropriate.
You don't think that sets a dangerous precedent? Reminds me when some Pharmacists were refusing to sell birth control pills because they opposed it on moral grounds.
 
I doubt that mastercard, visa, paypal, etc woke up one morning and said, "Gee, I don't like those wikileaks people so much. I'mma gonna refuse to service them."

They were obviously sent requests by the state dept. or some other gov't entity to freeze the accounts associated with Wikileaks pending trials against them.

Keep in mind that these companies are making money hand over fist - they get 1-3% of all money that flows into wikileaks, and this is a cash cow for them. They did not choose to cease processing these transactions on their own. Chances are good it was under court order, and further it's a good chance that the court order requires that they don't talk about it.

If they did this on their own, however, it may be within their rights. Keep in mind that wikileaks is not based in the US. What country are they based in? Where's the jurisdiction?

In the same way the american gov't can screw some small country over by ceasing GPS satellite signals, cutting internet satellite access, and freezing financial services provided by american companies (ie, all things they can command corporations based in the US to do via court orders), they are able to do to entities such as wikileaks. Once they categorize wikileaks as dangerous to the united states, these actions are perfectly legal.
 
C

Chibibar

I doubt that mastercard, visa, paypal, etc woke up one morning and said, "Gee, I don't like those wikileaks people so much. I'mma gonna refuse to service them."

They were obviously sent requests by the state dept. or some other gov't entity to freeze the accounts associated with Wikileaks pending trials against them.

Keep in mind that these companies are making money hand over fist - they get 1-3% of all money that flows into wikileaks, and this is a cash cow for them. They did not choose to cease processing these transactions on their own. Chances are good it was under court order, and further it's a good chance that the court order requires that they don't talk about it.

If they did this on their own, however, it may be within their rights. Keep in mind that wikileaks is not based in the US. What country are they based in? Where's the jurisdiction?

In the same way the american gov't can screw some small country over by ceasing GPS satellite signals, cutting internet satellite access, and freezing financial services provided by american companies (ie, all things they can command corporations based in the US to do via court orders), they are able to do to entities such as wikileaks. Once they categorize wikileaks as dangerous to the united states, these actions are perfectly legal.
I think you are right FLP. I believe the U.S. Government is ordering these companies to stop service to Wikileaks.
 
I seem to recall some 5 years ago phone companies were told to spy on American's private phone conversations, too. It doesn't mean it is right just because the government requests it.
 
I seem to recall some 5 years ago phone companies were told to spy on American's private phone conversations, too. It doesn't mean it is right just because the government requests it.
IIRC, they were only allowed to get warrantless wiretaps for calls made into or out of the US to suspected terrorist elements. It was far-reaching, certainly, but it's hardly the specter people raise it to be.

But for these a judge was likely involved in signing the order to stop payment.

I suppose if you find it offensive, you could always lobby congress the write laws such that the gov't is not allowed to stop payment to organizations that act against the US, then the judges won't be able to sign such orders.

I assume from your defense, though, that you are in complete agreement with Wikileaks decisions to release all the documents they are releasing?
 
I'm on the fence, FLP. I think some of the stuff is fascinating, but most of it is pointless.

I also think that any information which is so current it can put our troops in harms way is an attack on the country. The habit of the United States to wait 30+ years to unclassify some information seems too long to me, but 6 months is too soon.

Wikileaks is the cartoon character of what investigative journalism used to be. It's the uncontrolled and unlimited distribution of information. There should definitely be limits to the information released, but they don't discriminate or separate what is important to keep governments from becoming cartoon characters themselves and what puts people in real danger.
 
they don't discriminate or separate what is important to keep governments from becoming cartoon characters themselves and what puts people in real danger.
The kicker here is that I don't think anyone can separate the two either.

If they have the US redact material, then they will essentially get a map of what the US considers important (because they have both the original and redacted versions). They aren't even citizens of the US, nevermind trustworthy people who have security clearance, so there's no way the US can do it.

They themselves can't possibly understand the importance of various pieces of information. They can guess at it, but there is likely information in there that appears tame which may be rather important once you fully understand the context (which can't always be understood from the documents alone) and vice versa.

The questions we should be asking:
- Are there situations where the government must operate in secret in order to carry out its primary mission of protecting and providing services for its own citizens?
- What about secondary missions, such as working with other leaders for peace (which indirectly impacts the primary mission)?

In other words, can a truly open government work, where every word uttered by anyone in any position paid for in part or fully with taxpayer money is up for review by the public?

If we cause a shift in how government works, such that secrets are no longer allowed, are we simply adhering to a "higher" law, or are we instead showing our hand too broadly to our enemies, such that we will ultimately lose? Are we playing a poker game with other world leaders?

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

I keep thinking I'm trying to describe a "sea change" unsuccessfully.

I guess what I'm getting at is - can we fundamentally change government in a way that they would simply not care what others knew about them?

The best encryption algorithms are strong not because they are secret - in fact their success depends on everyone understanding the algorithm, and knowing that it's secure even though you can see the skeleton of the machine that performs the encryption.

In the same way can we re-define how our leaders govern our nation such that it won't matter who sees what.

FOIA was a tiny step towards this idea - the concept being that critical information has a time limit, after which it really isn't useful to our enemies and can be safely released.

The next step might be to require that all information be created with a reasonable specific expiration date in mind, and barring future action to extend the expiration, all documents would eventually come into the public hands. Ideally the expiration would be on the order of days, not months or years.

I'm open to the idea of going further and having everything immediately available, but I can't see how it would work without, for instance, completely undermining our military strength. The order to drop a bomb somewhere has to be kept a secret until after the bomb has hit its target, otherwise our enemies would always be able to avoid it.

But going backwards - are there not long-term efforts that the diplomats are setting up now that, like knowing the coordinates of the next strike, would completely fail if their efforts were known?
 
C

crono1224

They aren't telling you how to spend your money they are saying they won't allow you to use their services to finance something they deem inappropriate.
You don't think that sets a dangerous precedent? Reminds me when some Pharmacists were refusing to sell birth control pills because they opposed it on moral grounds.[/QUOTE]

Honestly I'm not sure, but pharmacies aren't a third party or a middle man per se. You can't just do it yourself, like you could with donating to wikileaks, while it maybe highly impractical to fly to wherever they are located out of and give them cash, you can do that.

Now I am unsure how I feel about the choosing of who can get money or not, it is suprsing they would allow you to donate money to the KKK but not wikileaks (it very well could have been gov. pressure but who knows).
 
The questions we should be asking:
- Are there situations where the government must operate in secret in order to carry out its primary mission of protecting and providing services for its own citizens?
- What about secondary missions, such as working with other leaders for peace (which indirectly impacts the primary mission)?
Perhaps, but you also need to ask if there are situations where the government will misuse the secrecy we allow it to have, by using it to perform actions that are not only unethical but also illegal. Considering we have had several such events brought to light in the past, it IS a reasonable assumption to believe our government may still be doing such things.

Ultimately, the entire Wikileaks issue comes down to whether or not each of us personally believes the government can be trusted with the secrecy it wields. If you do not, then you generally support Wikileaks. If you do, then you don't.
 
It looks like a few former Wikileaks employees are going to start a new site called OpenLeaks. They aren't going to be publishing the info themselves, but acting as an intermediary and releasing the info they receive to different news organizations. Seems like a much smarter way to go.
 
P

Papillon

I'm confused as to why the Espionage Act keeps getting brought up in coverage about Assange's arrest. As an Australian living in Sweden, then in the UK, why would he be subject to American law?
 
I'm confused as to why the Espionage Act keeps getting brought up in coverage about Assange's arrest. As an Australian living in Sweden, then in the UK, why would he be subject to American law?
He HAS been on American soil before (he was on the Daily Show at least once). If it can be proven that he helped secure or release sensitive materials while there, he could be charged with it.
 
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