So there's this Occupy Wall Street protest in Manhattan today

Re: Olbermann

It annoys the hell out of me how he pretends to be representative of the everyman. He's not even necessarily incorrect, but it gets buried by his ludicrous hyperbole. Assuming OWS is remembered at all a year from now, if what happened in Oakland over several days didn't set the world on fire, neither will Bloomberg having mostly non-violently cleared people out of a park smaller than a square block.

You'd think he would have talked about the press thing a lot more.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Iconic Cop of the Day





Iconic Cop of the Day: We’ve seen quite a few instantly iconic Occupy Wall Street snapshots this week, butthis one by Johnny Milano of retired Philadelphia PD captain Ray Lewis being arrested during yesterday’s Day of Action protests in NYC takes the cake (and shares it).

Capt. Lewis was charged with one count of “violation of local law, and two counts of disorderly conduct including disrupting traffic and refusing to move on.” He was reportedly released last night and will resume protesting today.
 
The man's a bastion of originality.
That was basically my thought too. If someone ELSE had done this, it wouldn't have been so bad... this would have been a perfect political cartoon. But for the same artist to basically rehash his work, in a blatant attempt to regain the street cred he lost for making the original poster in the first place? I dunno... seems kinda lame.
 
Except he was paid to do one of those, Krisken. That means he was explicitly asked to do something similar. He came up with this one all on his own.

And it's not to knock his other work. It's just that THIS particular image is clearly an attempt to regain his lost credibility. What was once an image of rebellion against the right wing shenanigans of the Bush era is now seen as something blatantly patriotic, which is something your never supposed to do in his art scene.
 
I guess I find it pretty meh. I find most artists to be fairly pretentious, and that's just from visiting the wife at SAIC when she attended there.
 
"Sir, the Freedom repellant doesn't seem to be working."

"I told you to buy the bombs instead. Now the protestors will just come back!"
 
No, it was explicitly at the New york crackdown. The article that boingboing links to mentions it.
No, I mean, the question was, is there any way they didn't fuck up, and I'm thinking, they could've been Oakland--and then I wasn't sure if that was more fucking up, less, or equal.
 
I know you're trying to be snarky for snark's sake Covar, but that's kinda uncool. At least act like you can see how this isn't ok in the United States.
 
I know disappointing right? why couldn't they have forced them up and cuffed them so we could have a picture of the police "assaulting" them?
Yeah, I have no idea what their exact protocol is, but....that's definitely not it.
Added at: 11:46

Crop dusting.
 
The revolution will be televised. But it will be a short revolution because we will be too busy televising it to participate.
 
Okay, what the hell? They're already rounded up, just sitting there. What's the point in spraying anything at them?
They weren't "rounded up". They were linking arms to prevent the removal of the encampment they were trying to protect. They were ordered to remove their camp, and if they chose not to it would be removed by force. Anyone resisting would be removed by force.

Would you have the police use batons to break the human chain up? If not, how would you go about enforcing the university's policy of removing the encampment? And don't cop out and say that you wouldn't. Instead let's say that the university was planning to remove them and they came to you to consult. They planned on using batons, beanbag rounds, etc, but they're open to your suggestions as long as they are effective at removing the encampment and those protecting it.

What is your recommendation? If your solution doesn't result in removal, they'll do it their way.
 
From the letter:
this is what happens when UC Chancellors order police onto our campuses to disperse peaceful protesters through the use of force: students get hurt.
Which is what happens when students choose to disobey police and university orders. Most of the students left when asked. Those that didn't suffered the consequences.

Here's the funny part - the protesters HAVE to be hurt - otherwise it won't have the impact they desired. They could certainly protest within the confines of their legal rights (they don't have the legal right to camp out there) but they know that unless they FORCE authority into a position where they have to use force, then they will not achieve their goal - attention for their cause.
They need to be attacked, and for that reason they choose civil disobedience.

I don't feel bad for the protestors. They are making a legitimate choice, and they know, understand, and actually need to be hurt to attain their goal.

Feel bad for the government, the institutions, and the police who are put in a position where they must be the force these students need. They don't volunteer to tear gas students - it's their job. It would be nice if they had a choice.

I wish luck to those who feel they don't have power to change the things they want to change.
But I don't pity them, and I don't think anyone else should either.
Added at: 17:12
Steinman how do you manage to type when you have both hands wrapped around the throbbing fascist cock of our police state
Actually I'm typing one handed since I'm holding my baby. I hope he follows his convictions, just as these students do. I will teach him that when it's necessary, he should put himself in harm's way and I will support him for doing so.

I won't, however, blame the police for performing their duty. If they go beyond reasonable means, then sure - but these police aren't going beyond the force the students are requiring them to take.
 
I guess it all boils down to what people consider to be peaceful resistance and what the appropriate response to that is.

Personally, I don't think pepper spraying kids who aren't considered a threat (the police turned their backs on them several times just before spraying them) is appropriate.
 
I guess it all boils down to what people consider to be peaceful resistance and what the appropriate response to that is.

Personally, I don't think pepper spraying kids who aren't considered a threat (the police turned their backs on them several times just before spraying them) is appropriate.
I think, though, that there's a disconnect here somewhere.

What do you propose the police do instead? Allow them to continue to disobey and "occupy" the park? The police don't have that option. "Peaceful resistance" is not and automatic ticket to do whatever you want. If I speed on the highway and get pulled over, I can't "peacefully resist" my way out of a ticket. If students camp in a location they aren't permitted to camp in, they can't "peacefully resist" their way to a free illegal campsite, no matter how many of them there are, nor how just their cause.

I'm quite certain that if you told the police how to remove them from the park and enforce the law without using pepper spray, baton, etc, then they'd be all ears.

I've asked that a few different times and a few different ways throughout this thread and so far everyone declines to answer.

Do you have an answer?

It doesn't matter that they pose no threat. A person doesn't have to be posing a threat in order to require police force.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If the protestors don't resist, the police won't use any force.

If the protestors only resist a little, individually, the police will use a little force.

If the protestors lock arms and resist strongly, en masse, the police have no option but to use an equal amount of force.

The protesters are in charge of the amount of force the police must use.

There are abuses, and that is unacceptable, but in general pepper spray has fewer long term effects than many other methods they could use.

But I'm very interested to hear your take on what the police should do instead.
 
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