So there's this Occupy Wall Street protest in Manhattan today

[Necronic]

No, I want the issue to be resolved, no matter which way the pieces fall. I simply don't see how that is going to happen without an event that will make the public demand lasting change, when history shows us that it is the only way it ever does... and the riots and police clashes we've been having show that the public at large is ready to do something.

Honestly, we're not going to know if the small skirmishes we've had are going to be enough until some time after the next election. Hopefully it has been... because if it's not, things are going to get a lot worse than they are now.

Yeah, so you are definitely an ideological zealot looking for violence. So a simple question.

Are you even out there on the front lines or are you managing this from the safety of your computer?

I want you to really think about what you are doing. Because advocating violence in this situation only makes the problem worse. And advocating violence that you aren't willing to get involved in means that you're not just an idiot. You're also a coward.

 

[Krisken]

...this is just getting weird.

You talking about that one post, or the thread?

 

[SpecialKO]

You talking about that one post, or the thread?

That one post.

 

[AshburnerX]

Yeah, so you are definitely an ideological zealot looking for violence. So a simple question.

Are you even out there on the front lines or are you managing this from the safety of your computer?

I want you to really think about what you are doing. Because advocating violence in this situation only makes the problem worse. And advocating violence that you aren't willing to get involved in means that you're not just an idiot. You're also a coward.

You know what? I honestly don't care what you think. You seem to think that I am expecting a grand revolution... that I think there will be some grand battle between the forces of good and evil. I'm not and there won't. This isn't that clear cut of an issue. The Occupy protests aren't the fucking Civil Rights marches, despite how some people seem to be reacting to them. This isn't going to be the defining moment of our generation, though I hope at least some good comes from it.

However, YOU have done nothing to understand my viewpoint. You have not tried to counter my arguments on the historical precedent for this. You have not even tried tried to appeal to the goodness in all of us that desires no man, woman, or child to suffer unjustly. It's not like I'm ignoring or even discrediting your viewpoint. It's not a terrible position and it's one a lot of people take. It's simply one that I don't believe in.

You have instead, from moment one, simply decried me because I want there to be serious consequences for serious actions, and used it as an excuse to inflate your own ego. The fact that you've reduced yourself to name calling essentially proves this. You do it because your unable or unwilling to approach the issue seriously.

So honestly? Go fuck yourself, you self righteous prick. If your not willing to accept others have different viewpoints, I really don't have the time to waste on you.

 

[Necronic]

Ok, I'll admit that my last post was a bit intense. But answer me this.

Are you even out there risking your own neck?

Edit: And let me answer a few of your points, mainly this one because it is a good point:

However, YOU have done nothing to understand my viewpoint

Your viewpoint, the one I am railing so hard against, is the belief that violence in this situation is a good thing. I understand your viewpoint. I think its wrong. And here's why.

First off:

The Occupy protests aren't the fucking Civil Rights marches, despite how some people seem to be reacting to them. This isn't going to be the defining moment of our generation, though I hope at least some good comes from it

You're absolutely right! This ISN"T the civil rights movement. This isn't the kind of contentious issue that nearly demands violence. This is a lot of unemployed lower to upper middle class. And let's talk about this movement that was so completely revolutionairy. Let's talk about the man in the center. Let's talk about MLK.

MLK preached non-violent resistance. And not in the "Oh I hope the throw down and beat us" non-violent resistance. He fundamentally felt that violence would only worsen the gaps between the opposing viewpoints. Which is true. A violent encounter polarizes an issue, with each person having to commiserate with one side or another.

That is ultimately a self-defeating result. The goal is not to divide, but to merge. People have to be brought to a shared understanding of the issues. Consider the reactions you see to the violence in OWS. Some people are saying "oh my god look at dat police brutality" and others are saying "well hey man they were asking for it"

Nothing is accomplished. No one comes to a higher understanding.

You have instead, from moment one, simply decried me because I want there to be serious consequences for serious actions

No I have decried you for calling for serious actions with serious consequences in an environment where it is not helpful.

I went on to ponder if you were even willing to be involved in these serious actions or if you were just enjoying it from the sidelines.

The fact that you've reduced yourself to name calling essentially proves this

I regret the name calling. It was out of line. In my defense I had just lost at bingo night and was pretty mad. ONE SQUARE SHORT OF THE BONANZA.

Edit2: But...actually yeah, I mean the name calling and stuff was wholly counter productive. It was the "violence" of rhetoric.

 

[GasBandit]

The 1% have written back a letter.

We are Wall Street. It's our job to make money. Whether it's a commodity, stock, bond, or some hypothetical piece of fake paper, it doesn't matter. We would trade baseball cards if it were profitable.
I didn't hear America complaining when the market was roaring to 14,000 and everyone's 401k doubled every 3 years. Just like gambling, its (sic) not a problem until you lose. I've never heard of anyone going to Gamblers Anonymous because they won too much in Vegas.
Well, now the market crapped out, & even though it has come back somewhat, the government and the average Joes are still looking for a scapegoat. God knows there has to be one for everything. Well, here we are.
Go ahead and continue to take us down, but you're only going to hurt yourselves. What's going to happen when we can't find jobs on the Street anymore? Guess what: We're going to take yours.
We get up at 5am & work till 10pm or later. We're used to not getting up to pee when we have a position. We don't take an hour or more for a lunch break. We don't demand a union. We don't retire at 50 with a pension. We eat what we kill, and when the only thing left to eat is on your dinner plates, we'll eat that.
For years teachers and other unionized labor have had us fooled. We were too busy working to notice. Do you really think that we are incapable of teaching 3rd graders and doing ladscapint? We're going to take your cushy jobs with tenure and 4 months off a year and whine just like you that we are so-o-o-o underpaid for building the youth of America. Say goodbye to your overtime and double time and a half. I'll be hitting grounders to the high school baseball team for $5k extra a summer, thank you very much.
So now that we're going to be making $85k a year without upside, Joe Mainstreet is going to have his revenge, right? Wrong! Guess what: we're going to stop buying the new 80k car, we aren't going to leave the 35 percent tip at our business dinners anymore. No more free rides on our backs. We're going to landscape our own back yards, wash our cars with a garden hose in our driveways. Our money was your money. You spent it. When our money dries up, so does yours.
The difference is, you lived off of it, we rejoiced in it. The Obama administration and the Democratic National Committee might get their way and knock us off the top of the pyramid, but it's really going to hurt like hell for them when our fat a**es land directly on the middle class of America and knock them to the bottom.
We aren't dinosaurs. We are smarter and more vicious than that, and we are going to survive. The question is, now that Obama & his administration are making Joe Mainstreet our food supply...will he? And will they?

 

[strawman]

From the article "Yesterday, a close friend -- an independent businessman himself for decades -- sent me via email the photo of a flyer, which was purportedly dropped from an office building in Chicago by the Board of Trade down upon the crowd of protesters." <-- included for the "My boyfriend's cousin's step-mother's friend sent a photo that might have come from one institution, but could easily have been written by a protester as satire, or anyone else."

 

[MindDetective]

Hahahahahahahahaha!

 

[Necronic]

I don't have a problem with hard workers on wall street making bank. If they create wealth, they earned a solid share of it.

What I have a problem with are the dudes that made financial frankensteins and cashed the checks while they wrecked havoc on the market.

 

[Adam]

I'm hoping that letter is satire because it shows a fundamental ignorance of the interrelation traders and the companies that they're trading. Believe me when I say wall street needs main street far more than main street needs wall street.

 

[@Li3n]

OH NOES, the 1% will take away 1% of r jerbz... leaving 98% of people to benefit from the 40% more money circulating amongst them... what a nightmare scenario...

 

[Tress]

Oh good, we're bringing out the old "teachers and union workers are dumb, anyone could do their job" bullshit. Guess what, folks? You may technically be able to become teachers, but most of you would be crappy at it. And then you would quit after 3 years because you would find out its hard work, long hours, and very little pay. So let me say once again: go fuck yourself. You can't do what I do, and the world is a better place when you don't even pretend like you can.

 

[SpecialKO]

That letter *is* satire, right?

I can't tell anymore, these days.

 

[Gared]

Meanwhile, following a crackdown on OccupyCal (UC Berkeley), the captain of the UCB police force has declared that the police were justified in their use of force against the protesters, because the act of locking arms and forming a human chain is a violent act - whether people think it is or not. Therefore, I propose two separate violent protests, one to be held today and one to be held on Christmas Eve, on the UCB campus.

Today being Veteran's Day, we need to get as large a group of people as we can to go to the square at UCB with the largest American flag, lock arms, and violently sing as many patriotic songs as they can think of. Then, on Christmas Eve, we need to get the largest choir groups in the area to go to the square, lock arms, and violently sing Christmas Carols.

 

[Tress]

Meanwhile, following a crackdown on OccupyCal (UC Berkeley), the captain of the UCB police force has declared that the police were justified in their use of force against the protesters, because the act of locking arms and forming a human chain is a violent act - whether people think it is or not. Therefore, I propose two separate violent protests, one to be held today and one to be held on Christmas Eve, on the UCB campus.

Today being Veteran's Day, we need to get as large a group of people as we can to go to the square at UCB with the largest American flag, lock arms, and violently sing as many patriotic songs as they can think of. Then, on Christmas Eve, we need to get the largest choir groups in the area to go to the square, lock arms, and violently sing Christmas Carols.

You, sir, clearly know nothing about Berkeley. I can think of nothing that they hate more than American flags or Christmas.

 

[Gared]

Whether they hate American flags or Christmas or not, isn't really the point here, now is it? If locking arms and forming a human chain is now going to be considered a violent act, we're fucked as a nation.

 

[Tress]

Whether they hate American flags or Christmas or not, isn't really the point here, now is it? If locking arms and forming a human chain is now going to be considered a violent act, we're fucked as a nation.

I was just kidding. It's a good idea.

 

[Necronic]

Oh good, we're bringing out the old "teachers and union workers are dumb, anyone could do their job" bullshit. Guess what, folks? You may technically be able to become teachers, but most of you would be crappy at it. And then you would quit after 3 years because you would find out its hard work, long hours, and very little pay. So let me say once again: go fuck yourself. You can't do what I do, and the world is a better place when you don't even pretend like you can.

I've considered teaching on more than one occasion. But due to my anger issues (as displayed somewhat often here) I am pretty sure I would end up being one of those teachers that gets filmed giving the kid a Patrick-Sawyze-Roadhouse-Style beat down.

 

[HCGLNS]

Just to update you all; the police are dismantling the Occupy Nova Scotia camp right now. Many arrests and violence. And rain.

 

[Covar]

Damn cops, just like them to bring rain along.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Meanwhile, following a crackdown on OccupyCal (UC Berkeley), the captain of the UCB police force has declared that the police were justified in their use of force against the protesters, because the act of locking arms and forming a human chain is a violent act - whether people think it is or not. Therefore, I propose two separate violent protests, one to be held today and one to be held on Christmas Eve, on the UCB campus.
Today being Veteran's Day, we need to get as large a group of people as we can to go to the square at UCB with the largest American flag, lock arms, and violently sing as many patriotic songs as they can think of. Then, on Christmas Eve, we need to get the largest choir groups in the area to go to the square, lock arms, and violently sing Christmas Carols.

So much violence... so much death.
Added at: 16:40

The 1% have written back a letter.

That really made very little sense. I'm with steinman--looks Shopped.

 

[Officer_Charon]

Re: the violence at Cal:

From the video, it appeared that everything was relatively kosher until one section of the human chain surged towards the one officer. Said officer responded by utilizing the riot baton in a jabbing motion (which is not the best use of 36" of ash wood in a crowd control situation). Other officers observed the action, undoubtedly thought that a rush was starting, and took measures to prevent being swarmed. It is DAMNED hard to see around your helmet's periphery with the shield down, due to fogging, lighting, environment factors etc. From an individual officer's standpoint, I can see how this could happen.

When you're facing off against a human chain (or in this case, chain-link... there were about 3 ranks of these guys), it is DAMNED hard to halt their momentum without someone getting hurt. There isn't a way to slow it down without a concerted effort on the part of the folks making the chain, or by putting an immovable object in their path. A single line of officers without shields is NOT going to halt them, and may end up resulting in officer injury. Thus, you move to halt the inertia of the line before it gains too much momentum and steam-rolls over your officers. From a supervisory standpoint, I can see how this would happen.


For the record, I'm on my city's riot team, for those of you who don't know. My next drill session with them will be Tuesday. I have little doubt that these protests are going to feature HEAVILY on any briefings we receive, and I would like to provide some outside input from this situation. If anyone has any questions they would like answered/addressed, I could see about talking to the Lt. about it, and anything that I couldn't answer, he SHOULD.

Just, bear in mind that the Mobile Field Force is like the red-headed stepchild of my department. We only JUST got alotted a piece of the budget for new equipment - most of our stuff is last generation.

 

[SpecialKO]

Acknowledging that this is totally in hindsight rather than heat of the moment, what do you think would have been the best action the first officer could have taken?

 

[Hailey Knight]

OC, I appreciate your giving us insight on an officer's perspective with all this, no matter how many times Charlie wants to fuck you.

 

[LordRendar]

I know that I am gonna getr beaten on again in 2 weeks when I am going protesting against the Nuclear Waste Train thats going through Gorleben.A flyer got released where the police got orderd to have zero tolerance against anything.
So...just sitting on the traintracks=beating, puttung straw under your shirt so the beatings wont hurt that much= pepper spray and more beatings.
Woooo.....

Back on topic,the only thing that the Occupy Hamburg accomplished here was that there wont be a Christmas Market on the area where they are camping.Dammit...no Hot Wine and roasted pork for me. :/

 

[Espy]

Do you mind if I ask why you are protesting against a train going through your town?

 

[Tress]

Do you mind if I ask why you are protesting against a train going through your town?

"Not in my backyard" syndrome, I would guess.

 

[strawman]

just sitting on the traintracks=beating

It's better than being run over by the train, I suppose. Or are you suggesting that you want to commit suicide? If so, why not choose a place on the tracks and a time/day when the police aren't going to be making sure no one gets hurt by the train?

 

[LordRendar]

"Not in my backyard" syndrome, I would guess.

More like..."no nuclear waste in my backyrad" syndrome.

 

[Tress]

More like..."no nuclear waste in my backyrad" syndrome.

As long as it goes somewhere else and becomes someone else's problem, right?

 

[Officer_Charon]

The way I've been trained to use a riot baton is to utilize it as a shoving tool, not a jabbing one, pushing with the length of the baton, rather than piking them with the end of it - that's for emergency situations (making enough room to extricate yourselves with).

But it's kind of a catch-22, because the first protester to get struck was being pushed from behind, so if the police shoved back, he'd end up being sandwich filler. Either way, he probably would have ended up getting injured.

 

[LordRendar]

As long as it goes somewhere else and becomes someone else's problem, right?

I rather would have it that the nuclear waste goes back to france from where it came from.

 

[Espy]

I rather would have it that the nuclear waste goes back to france from where it came from.

Why is it coming to Germany (if I remember correctly where you are...)? Do you folks use the power from the French plants?

 

[TommiR]

Waste disposal business, I'd assume. The french pay someone in Germany or points beyond to take their nuclear waste for treatment & storage.

 

[strawman]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/n...is-a-growing-concern.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all

I'm surprised they haven't complained that the illnesses are due to cholera laced blankets the police have been handing violent homeless folks as they sent them to OWS.