Remember the shots which hit the White House?

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2) A centrist is just a code word for someone lacking political conviction
If ever there was an oxymoron, it would be "political conviction".

I'd rather be a centrist than a Republican or a Democrat. Belonging to a party means that you have no choice on matters which I believe are a very individual and personal decision to be made. You can't be a pro-gun, pro-choice Democrat or Republican, by their very platforms.

National debt is a horrible measure of a presidency. Especially considering congress controls the purse.
 
I'm a proud centrist that thinks Obama is also pretty centrist. I don't agree with everything he has going on (Healthcare was bungled, imo) but I'm happy enough as things are.
 
I'm a proud centrist that thinks Obama is also pretty centrist. I don't agree with everything he has going on (Healthcare was bungled, imo) but I'm happy enough as things are.
I'm a leftist that wishes Obama was more leftist, but given the circumstance I don't think he's done terrible. I'd like more, but of what's available, he's still me best pick.

Doesn't mean I don't get mad at his decisions, but that is true for any president
 

ElJuski

Staff member
That's my town! I <3 living in DC. Best assassins ever.
Added at: 14:58
Also I'm cool as long as you guys don't fuck with Andrew Garfield. That guy was my six-month motherfucker, moe
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You can when Bush failed to make Bin Laden a priority.



Or it could mean that you have political convictions on an issue by issue basis, rather than picking and extreme and going on autopilot.
I have convictions on an issue by issue basis - I am not a centrist. Of course, it's also my argument that "social conservatives" are actually neither...
 
You're too left to be a Republican, too right to be a Democrat and too sane to be a Libertarian. That makes you a Centrist by their measures.
 

fade

Staff member
That's funny, because I think that Centrist is the only political stance that actually requires conviction.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You're too left to be a Republican, too right to be a Democrat and too sane to be a Libertarian. That makes you a Centrist by their measures.
"Centrist," at best, is a flawed term brought about by an incorrect methodology of limiting the political spectrum to a 1-dimensional line.

But in practice, it just really means "weathervane."
 
I think GBs concern around Centrism revolves around the idea that a person can be sold one way or another on a particular stance. I see that more as a product of an open mind than anything else. The two party system in the US has really screwed up over political choice; the dichotomy doesn't lend itself to anything other than "My Team versus Your Team"
If you are:
Pro Gun
Pro Life
Anti Tax
Anti Immigration
Anti Minimum Wage
You are a republican.
If you are:
Anti Gun
Pro Choice
Pro Tax
Pro Immigration
Pro Minimum Wage
You are a Democrat.
Any reasonable person could be any combination of those.
Added at: 09:40
"Centrist," at best, is a flawed term brought about by an incorrect methodology of limiting the political spectrum to a 1-dimensional line.
But in practice, it just really means "weathervane."
I'd rather be a weathervane directed by logic than a statue frozen by conviction.
 

fade

Staff member
"Centrist," at best, is a flawed term brought about by an incorrect methodology of limiting the political spectrum to a 1-dimensional line.

But in practice, it just really means "weathervane."
That seems to run counter to your views that the individual is the controller of his own destiny. Frankly, it doesn't make any logical sense, either. I'm not going to discount a well-argued, well-presented viewpoint just because it belongs to a member of the "opposite" party--which strangely seems to be the root of your argument, too. Discounting things on the basis of some arbitrary allegiance is what I view as one of the core philosophical problems in this country right now, in fact.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
That seems to run counter to your views that the individual is the controller of his own destiny. Frankly, it doesn't make any logical sense, either. I'm not going to discount a well-argued, well-presented viewpoint just because it belongs to a member of the "opposite" party--which strangely seems to be the root of your argument, too. Discounting things on the basis of some arbitrary allegiance is what I view as one of the core philosophical problems in this country right now, in fact.
I'm not talking about party affiliations, I'm talking about political ideologies - Liberal vs Conservative. "Centrist" isn't a political party. I have strong conservative convictions, thus I refuse to vote Republican. How ya like THEM apples?
 

fade

Staff member
I'm not talking about party affiliations, I'm talking about political ideologies - Liberal vs Conservative. "Centrist" isn't a political party. I have strong conservative convictions, thus I refuse to vote Republican. How ya like THEM apples?
I figured this would be your reply. I understand Centrist is not a party, but the same thing applies to the labels of "Liberal" and "Conservative", or however many ideological axes you want to define. I have personal ideologies that may be met by a liberal idea, a conservative one, or a libertarian one. That doesn't make me a weathervane. That implies waffling. Hard schisms in ideological or party...it doesn't matter, they're just overlapping lenses.

One thing that it means to me is a refusal to outright dismiss anything because it doesn't match my ideology. I like you, GasBandit. I respect you more than a lot of people I've met, virtually or in real life. I disagree vehemently with your stances on a lot of issues, but I don't distrust or dislike you or outright disavow your ideas. The discourse is as important as the ideal. That's what I meant.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I figured this would be your reply. I understand Centrist is not a party, but the same thing applies to the labels of "Liberal" and "Conservative", or however many ideological axes you want to define. I have personal ideologies that may be met by a liberal idea, a conservative one, or a libertarian one. That doesn't make me a weathervane. That implies waffling. Hard schisms in ideological or party...it doesn't matter, they're just overlapping lenses.

One thing that it means to me is a refusal to outright dismiss anything because it doesn't match my ideology. I like you, GasBandit. I respect you more than a lot of people I've met, virtually or in real life. I disagree vehemently with your stances on a lot of issues, but I don't distrust or dislike you or outright disavow your ideas. The discourse is as important as the ideal. That's what I meant.
I think we're talking about two different things - the overall ideology of "what's for the best" versus a-la carte opinions on the issues that put one at odds with what defines the two major parties, or stereotypically defines the labels "liberal" and "conservative.

For example, I don't think there will ever be a way to make someone who supports gay marriage to be convinced to not support it. We can dicker and argue about whether it's better to set a tax at 20% or 25%, but the defining characteristic of a conviction is that it takes a mountain to move it, if even then.

Of course, there ARE some people who hold strong convictions where they shouldn't... but there are just as many people, if not more, that like to couch indecision as erudition.

Two and three dimensional shapes have a center too.
Not if they're toroidal. Or, as you included by exclusion - things that are 4 or more dimensions.

As an aside, I prefer intercourse over discourse.
Both at once is the best?
 

Necronic

Staff member
You seriously can't blame centrists for the the inability to articulate post-structuralist political viewpoints in modern society. Particularly in a society where the polarized politico-info-tainment that you see in the Hannity's and O'Reilly's has become some of the highest rated telivision around. You may not like our terminology, but if you want to blame someone for the ridiculous linear ideology of this era you're looking at the wrong people.

Also, in terms of bad presidents (limited to the 20th century and 21st century) I would challenge someone to name a president that I couldn't argue was the worst. Or the best for that matter.

LBJ:
Worst -Was, by todays standards, a massive political criminal (in his Texas years), escalated the worst war in US history. Killed the southern democrats.
Best - Civil Rights.

Nixon -
Worst - Another political criminal. Also borderline sociopathic. Probably considered having political dissidents killed.
Best - Amazing foreign policy, gave us the foundation for the good relations we have with China today.

JFK -
Worst - Bay of Pigs and a string of potentially blackmailable instances so long it would make Clinton blush, up to and including an affair with a possible soviet spy. Was pretty lousy at handling the labor markets as well.
Best - Space Program. Held us strong through the worst part of the Cold War.

Reagan
Worst - Iran Contra, highest interest rates in history. High unemployment. Bastard offspring of Goldwater that created the neo-cons.
Best - Iran Contra, Highest interest rates in history. Fixed Taxes.

Carter -
Worst - Worst taxes in history. Basically gave the Neo-cons the launching ground they needed. Weak-spined and unable to deal with the middle east problem.
Best - Legalized Micro-brewing.

I mean, it can keep going and going.
 
I would like to see an argument for Eisenhower being the worst. I honestly don't think it can be done in a plausible way.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You seriously can't blame centrists for the the inability to articulate post-structuralist political viewpoints in modern society. Particularly in a society where the polarized politico-info-tainment that you see in the Hannity's and O'Reilly's has become some of the highest rated telivision around. You may not like our terminology, but if you want to blame someone for the ridiculous linear ideology of this era you're looking at the wrong people.
Speaking of terminology, WOW did I need 3 read-throughs and a map to make it through that first sentence. Heh.
Call it disagreement over terminology if you wish, but the fact remains that the term "centrist" has been co-opted. It's meant to project the imagery of a studied individual who weighs each issue and candidate independently and then makes an informed decision, when really it most often means someone who most likely lets an october surprise pick who he votes for. Even if we use a 2 dimensional political spectrum, a "centrist" is only all the more illustrated as being wishy-washy than on a 1 dimensional scale.
I mean, it can keep going and going.
You call Reagan a "bastard offspring of goldwater," I'd say it would be closer to say "disowned." Goldwater hated what the republican party became under Reagan.
Added at: 17:40
Oh, and Eisenhower left Europe holding the bag during the Suez crisis.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Speaking of terminology, WOW did I need 3 read-throughs and a map to make it through that first sentence. Heh.
Yeah I actually raged at someone who used "post-structuralist" in a political discussion before. I think I basically plagiarised the good will hunting speech and told him to get over the BS philosophy they taught him in his first year at law school. It really is a good term for what I'm talking about though (it was good when he used it too, but I had just seen good will hunting).


Call it disagreement over terminology if you wish, but the fact remains that the term "centrist" has been co-opted. It's meant to project the imagery of a studied individual who weighs each issue and candidate independently and then makes an informed decision, when really it most often means someone who most likely lets an october surprise pick who he votes for. Even if we use a 2 dimensional political spectrum, a "centrist" is only all the more illustrated as being wishy-washy than on a 1 dimensional scale.
That's true for some voters, but even for them I would rather have the dispassionate voter than the fanatical ones we see so much of today.

You call Reagan a "bastard offspring of goldwater," I'd say it would be closer to say "disowned." Goldwater hated what the republican party became under Reagan.
Well yeah, Reagan was like that "other son" that he didn't like to talk about at parties.
Added at: 17:40
Oh, and Eisenhower left Europe holding the bag during the Suez crisis.
Worst president ever.

Also, on reading stufff about him we have the following:

-Bay of Pigs was actually planned during his presidency.
-Expanded Social Security
-CIA deposed/assasinated a ton of leaders during his presidency. In some ways he initiated a lot of the espionage/wet work heavy side of the cold war.
-Did not intervene in Vietnam early enough, but pushed for JFK to go after it. Partially responsible for a lot of JFK's mistakes.
-Did not do much to stop the McCarthy hunts.
-Admitted Hawaii as a state. Millions of lazy hawaiians soon imigrated to the US.
 
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