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Yeah, about that. Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez (must need the middle name for this), the man who shot at White House has been charged with assassination attempt.

Well, he was muy loco.

He is loco. He didn't check the president's schedule and drive up and shoot while he is not there? that is sloppy work. how can it be assassination attempt when the target is not there?

Charge high, settle low. He'll have a good time hanging in the ward with Hinkley.

Any word on a motive? The article doesn't seem to say (though, given that it is huffpo, the users are already blaming Rush Limbaugh).

Never read the comments.

I read that he said somewhere that God gave him a mission to shoot the president.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I read that he said somewhere that God gave him a mission to shoot the president.

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Yep, TDW now has it - he believes Obama is the Anti-Christ and god has charged him with a mission.

Kooky.

College Republicans: always classy

That tool must have been in a coma the first 8 years of the century.

Krisken said:

That tool must have been in a coma the first 8 years of the century.

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Everything Bush did, Obama's done moreso...

GasBandit said:

Everything Bush did, Obama's done moreso...

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Yup, diplomacy is definitely a bigger part of the Obama administration. He also ended more wars, was in charge when Osama was killed, and ended DADT. He most certainly did more.

Krisken said:

Yup, diplomacy is definitely a bigger part of the Obama administration. He also ended more wars, was in charge when Osama was killed, and ended DADT. He most certainly did more.

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Military actions during bush administration - 2
- during obama administration - 3

Max debt during bush administration - 9 trillion.
- during obama administration - 15 trillion and counting.

Stupid medical blunders during Bush Administration - medicare/prescription stuff
- during Obama administration - Individual mandate.

and that you're going to give obama credit for killing Bin Laden just makes me laugh. Next you'll be giving him credit for the somali pirates that got sniped.

Damn right I do. If it had gone bad you know damn well he would have caught shit for it. If you're going to tally up the negatives, don't be a hypocrite and at least tally up the positives.

Krisken said:

Damn right I do. If it had gone bad you know damn well he would have caught shit for it. If you're going to tally up the negatives, don't be a hypocrite and at least tally up the positives.

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You can't blame Bush for the war and then deny him any credit for the kill the war enabled.

And for every halliburton, there's been 5 solyndras. For every wiretapping, there's been a fast and furious. Obama is Bush's awfulness squared.

The hell I can't.

And comparing Solyndra to Halliburton is a grossly over the top thing to do.

I don't like a lot of the stuff Obama has done, but he's not Bush. That you see them as equal says more about you than it does about them.

Krisken said:

The hell I can't.
And comparing Solyndra to Halliburton is a grossly over the top thing to do.
I don't like a lot of the stuff Obama has done, but he's not Bush. That you see them as equal says more about you than it does about them.

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I didn't say they were equal, I said Obama is worse. Bush = bad. Obama = worse. The only question now is if he'll surpass Carter as worst ever.
Added at: 17:23
And at least halliburton provides a service. Solyndra, and the others that soaked up billions of taxpayer money, didn't generate squat except for contributions to the DNC's war chest.

lol

Charlie Don't Surf said:

lol

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Ladies and Gentlemen: CDS. Give him a hand, folks!

Sorry, I laughed too. To try to sugar coat Halliburton was a frosting too sweet.

I would rather throw money into a bonfire than pay off feckless thugs

Hey, they did put out oil fires. All Solyndra and the others that got 20-someodd billion dollars in loan guarantees did was fire employees and launder money for democrat campaigns.
Added at: 17:33

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I would rather throw money into a bonfire than pay off feckless thugs

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Ah, so you're anti-union now too?

Carter the worst? Obama the worst? Jesus. Read a history book and get a fucking clue.

I think Millard Fillmore was the worst president in history.

Johnson always gets my vote.

Adammon said:

I think Millard Fillmore was the worst president in history.

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I would put Harding, Buchanan, and Johnson before Fillmore.

Look at alllll the leftists scuttling out of the cracks in the walls again.

Put it this way, guys... in your language, Carter did so bad you got 8 years of Reagan.

Stop saying 'leftists' like it's something dirty and I'll start taking you seriously. Those Fox News tactics don't mean squat.

I truly believe that a president has so little control of the environment that they work in that there's no way to determine the quality of a president.

Clinton benefited from the dot com boom and unsustainable growth. Bush laboured under the worst terrorist attacks in American history. Both were victims/benefactors of decades of decisions made by their predecessors and factors outside their control such as economics, world events and technology.

I don't think any President gains the office hoping to be labelled the worst president ever. Except Harding, he was a monster.

Krisken said:

Stop saying 'leftists' like it's something dirty and I'll start taking you seriously. Those Fox News tactics don't mean squat.

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Krisken, you and I have been back and forth time and again, but I thought we were beyond this - telling me a personal falsehood. You and I both know that no matter what I do, you will never take me seriously.

GasBandit said:

Krisken, you and I have been back and forth time and again, but I thought we were beyond this - telling me a personal falsehood. You and I both know that no matter what I do, you will never take me seriously.

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If it is well reasoned and explained well, I do concede your point. The problem is how often it goes to stuff like above.

So no, that I will never take you seriously is patently untrue.

I'm pretty well entrenched in the center, thanks. Leftist doesn't apply to me. I only look like a leftist to you because you're so far off to the right in fantasyland that everyone looks leftist. Not to mention that Krisken is right, in that it's not the insult you want it to be.

My point remains: get a book and a clue before you start sniveling about how Obama or Carter are the worst ever. And if you don't truly believe it and just wanted to say some dumb crap, go find somewhere else to fling shit on the walls.

Adammon said:

I don't think any President gains the office hoping to be labelled the worst president ever. Except Harding, he was a monster.

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What about Taft? He was so mediocre that he descendent, a Governor of Ohio, is generally considered to be more distinguished that he was.

I generally consider myself too much of a wildcard to put on the spectrum. I lean far left on some things and far right on others (but fewer than I do left). I generally vote Democrat because they value more of my core beliefs, but the only reason I don't vote third is because we haven't had a viable third party since the Bull-Mouse party. I am pro-gun but also pro-choice... so yeah, it's hard to place me anywhere meaningful.

Tress said:

I'm pretty well entrenched in the center, thanks. Leftist doesn't apply to me. I only look like a leftist to you because you're so far off to the right in fantasyland that everyone look leftist. Not to mention that Krisken is right, in that it's not the insult you want it to be.

My point remains: get a book and a clue before you start sniveling about how Obama or Carter are the worst ever. And if you don't truly believe it and just wanted to say some dumb crap, go find somewhere else to fling shit on the walls.

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1) Your hat is well deserved. And are you new to the political forum?
2) A centrist is just a code word for someone lacking political conviction
3) What was the national debt under Harding, Johnson (I'm assuming you guys mean Andrew, and not LBJ), Buchanan and Fillmore?
4) How many times did they initiate military action in a foreign nation without congressional approval?

Wow, if #4 is the criteria, then almost every president in the history of the country has failed that litmus.

GasBandit said:

2) A centrist is just a code word for someone lacking political conviction

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If ever there was an oxymoron, it would be "political conviction".

I'd rather be a centrist than a Republican or a Democrat. Belonging to a party means that you have no choice on matters which I believe are a very individual and personal decision to be made. You can't be a pro-gun, pro-choice Democrat or Republican, by their very platforms.

National debt is a horrible measure of a presidency. Especially considering congress controls the purse.

I'm a proud leftist that thinks Obama is a conservative shill.

I'm a proud centrist that thinks Obama is also pretty centrist. I don't agree with everything he has going on (Healthcare was bungled, imo) but I'm happy enough as things are.

Tress said:

Johnson always gets my vote.

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Johnson was GREAT and TERRIBLE at the same time.

MindDetective said:

I'm a proud centrist that thinks Obama is also pretty centrist. I don't agree with everything he has going on (Healthcare was bungled, imo) but I'm happy enough as things are.

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I'm a leftist that wishes Obama was more leftist, but given the circumstance I don't think he's done terrible. I'd like more, but of what's available, he's still me best pick.

Doesn't mean I don't get mad at his decisions, but that is true for any president

Krisken said:

Wow, if #4 is the criteria, then almost every president in the history of the country has failed that litmus.

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Ironically, except George W. Bush.

GasBandit said:

Ironically, except George W. Bush.

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Yeah well, the country was so pissed off and brain screwed they would have attacked Canada if they had presented that as the country responsible.

Krisken said:

Yeah well, the country was so pissed off and brain screwed they would have attacked Canada if they had presented that as the country responsible.

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Alas, for missed opportunities!

sixpackshaker said:

Johnson was GREAT and TERRIBLE at the same time.

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I was thinking of Andrew Johnson. I always think of Lyndon Johnson as LBJ, so I forget people don't necessarily know who I'm talking about.

Yes, Andrew was TERRIBLE all the time.

GasBandit said:

You can't blame Bush for the war and then deny him any credit for the kill the war enabled.

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You can when Bush failed to make Bin Laden a priority.

GasBandit said:

2) A centrist is just a code word for someone lacking political conviction

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Or it could mean that you have political convictions on an issue by issue basis, rather than picking and extreme and going on autopilot.

That's my town! I <3 living in DC. Best assassins ever.
Added at: 14:58
Also I'm cool as long as you guys don't fuck with Andrew Garfield. That guy was my six-month motherfucker, moe

Norris said:

You can when Bush failed to make Bin Laden a priority.



Or it could mean that you have political convictions on an issue by issue basis, rather than picking and extreme and going on autopilot.

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I have convictions on an issue by issue basis - I am not a centrist. Of course, it's also my argument that "social conservatives" are actually neither...

You're too left to be a Republican, too right to be a Democrat and too sane to be a Libertarian. That makes you a Centrist by their measures.

That's funny, because I think that Centrist is the only political stance that actually requires conviction.

Adammon said:

You're too left to be a Republican, too right to be a Democrat and too sane to be a Libertarian. That makes you a Centrist by their measures.

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"Centrist," at best, is a flawed term brought about by an incorrect methodology of limiting the political spectrum to a 1-dimensional line.

But in practice, it just really means "weathervane."

fade said:

That's funny, because I think that Centrist is the only political stance that actually requires conviction.

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And lots of Dr. Pepper.

I think GBs concern around Centrism revolves around the idea that a person can be sold one way or another on a particular stance. I see that more as a product of an open mind than anything else. The two party system in the US has really screwed up over political choice; the dichotomy doesn't lend itself to anything other than "My Team versus Your Team"
If you are:
Pro Gun
Pro Life
Anti Tax
Anti Immigration
Anti Minimum Wage
You are a republican.
If you are:
Anti Gun
Pro Choice
Pro Tax
Pro Immigration
Pro Minimum Wage
You are a Democrat.
Any reasonable person could be any combination of those.
Added at: 09:40

GasBandit said:

"Centrist," at best, is a flawed term brought about by an incorrect methodology of limiting the political spectrum to a 1-dimensional line.
But in practice, it just really means "weathervane."

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I'd rather be a weathervane directed by logic than a statue frozen by conviction.

GasBandit said:

"Centrist," at best, is a flawed term brought about by an incorrect methodology of limiting the political spectrum to a 1-dimensional line.

But in practice, it just really means "weathervane."

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That seems to run counter to your views that the individual is the controller of his own destiny. Frankly, it doesn't make any logical sense, either. I'm not going to discount a well-argued, well-presented viewpoint just because it belongs to a member of the "opposite" party--which strangely seems to be the root of your argument, too. Discounting things on the basis of some arbitrary allegiance is what I view as one of the core philosophical problems in this country right now, in fact.

fade said:

That seems to run counter to your views that the individual is the controller of his own destiny. Frankly, it doesn't make any logical sense, either. I'm not going to discount a well-argued, well-presented viewpoint just because it belongs to a member of the "opposite" party--which strangely seems to be the root of your argument, too. Discounting things on the basis of some arbitrary allegiance is what I view as one of the core philosophical problems in this country right now, in fact.

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I'm not talking about party affiliations, I'm talking about political ideologies - Liberal vs Conservative. "Centrist" isn't a political party. I have strong conservative convictions, thus I refuse to vote Republican. How ya like THEM apples?

GasBandit said:

"Centrist," at best, is a flawed term brought about by an incorrect methodology of limiting the political spectrum to a 1-dimensional line.

But in practice, it just really means "weathervane."

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Two and three dimensional shapes have a center too.

GasBandit said:

I'm not talking about party affiliations, I'm talking about political ideologies - Liberal vs Conservative. "Centrist" isn't a political party. I have strong conservative convictions, thus I refuse to vote Republican. How ya like THEM apples?

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I figured this would be your reply. I understand Centrist is not a party, but the same thing applies to the labels of "Liberal" and "Conservative", or however many ideological axes you want to define. I have personal ideologies that may be met by a liberal idea, a conservative one, or a libertarian one. That doesn't make me a weathervane. That implies waffling. Hard schisms in ideological or party...it doesn't matter, they're just overlapping lenses.

One thing that it means to me is a refusal to outright dismiss anything because it doesn't match my ideology. I like you, GasBandit. I respect you more than a lot of people I've met, virtually or in real life. I disagree vehemently with your stances on a lot of issues, but I don't distrust or dislike you or outright disavow your ideas. The discourse is as important as the ideal. That's what I meant.

As an aside, I prefer intercourse over discourse.

fade said:

I figured this would be your reply. I understand Centrist is not a party, but the same thing applies to the labels of "Liberal" and "Conservative", or however many ideological axes you want to define. I have personal ideologies that may be met by a liberal idea, a conservative one, or a libertarian one. That doesn't make me a weathervane. That implies waffling. Hard schisms in ideological or party...it doesn't matter, they're just overlapping lenses.

One thing that it means to me is a refusal to outright dismiss anything because it doesn't match my ideology. I like you, GasBandit. I respect you more than a lot of people I've met, virtually or in real life. I disagree vehemently with your stances on a lot of issues, but I don't distrust or dislike you or outright disavow your ideas. The discourse is as important as the ideal. That's what I meant.

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I think we're talking about two different things - the overall ideology of "what's for the best" versus a-la carte opinions on the issues that put one at odds with what defines the two major parties, or stereotypically defines the labels "liberal" and "conservative.

For example, I don't think there will ever be a way to make someone who supports gay marriage to be convinced to not support it. We can dicker and argue about whether it's better to set a tax at 20% or 25%, but the defining characteristic of a conviction is that it takes a mountain to move it, if even then.

Of course, there ARE some people who hold strong convictions where they shouldn't... but there are just as many people, if not more, that like to couch indecision as erudition.

MindDetective said:

Two and three dimensional shapes have a center too.

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Not if they're toroidal. Or, as you included by exclusion - things that are 4 or more dimensions.

Adammon said:

As an aside, I prefer intercourse over discourse.

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Both at once is the best?

GasBandit said:

Not if they're toroidal. Or, as you included by exclusion - things that are 4 or more dimensions.

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Perhaps you need to better define the space you are envisioning, then. I highly doubt it is toroidal, though.

MindDetective said:

Perhaps you need to better define the space you are envisioning, then. I highly doubt it is toroidal, though.

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Much as I hate the doctor who quote, it's a wibbley-wobbley torus of political-witical stuff.

GasBandit said:

Much as I hate the doctor who quote, it's a wibbley-wobbley torus of political-witical stuff.

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Sounds a bit, you know, weathervane-y

MindDetective said:

Sounds a bit, you know, weathervane-y

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There's a place on it for weathervanes.

You seriously can't blame centrists for the the inability to articulate post-structuralist political viewpoints in modern society. Particularly in a society where the polarized politico-info-tainment that you see in the Hannity's and O'Reilly's has become some of the highest rated telivision around. You may not like our terminology, but if you want to blame someone for the ridiculous linear ideology of this era you're looking at the wrong people.

Also, in terms of bad presidents (limited to the 20th century and 21st century) I would challenge someone to name a president that I couldn't argue was the worst. Or the best for that matter.

LBJ:
Worst -Was, by todays standards, a massive political criminal (in his Texas years), escalated the worst war in US history. Killed the southern democrats.
Best - Civil Rights.

Nixon -
Worst - Another political criminal. Also borderline sociopathic. Probably considered having political dissidents killed.
Best - Amazing foreign policy, gave us the foundation for the good relations we have with China today.

JFK -
Worst - Bay of Pigs and a string of potentially blackmailable instances so long it would make Clinton blush, up to and including an affair with a possible soviet spy. Was pretty lousy at handling the labor markets as well.
Best - Space Program. Held us strong through the worst part of the Cold War.

Reagan
Worst - Iran Contra, highest interest rates in history. High unemployment. Bastard offspring of Goldwater that created the neo-cons.
Best - Iran Contra, Highest interest rates in history. Fixed Taxes.

Carter -
Worst - Worst taxes in history. Basically gave the Neo-cons the launching ground they needed. Weak-spined and unable to deal with the middle east problem.
Best - Legalized Micro-brewing.

I mean, it can keep going and going.

I would like to see an argument for Eisenhower being the worst. I honestly don't think it can be done in a plausible way.

That is a tough one.....give me a bit and I'll be back.

The Interstate system has made traffic worse for every major city.

Necronic said:

You seriously can't blame centrists for the the inability to articulate post-structuralist political viewpoints in modern society. Particularly in a society where the polarized politico-info-tainment that you see in the Hannity's and O'Reilly's has become some of the highest rated telivision around. You may not like our terminology, but if you want to blame someone for the ridiculous linear ideology of this era you're looking at the wrong people.

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Speaking of terminology, WOW did I need 3 read-throughs and a map to make it through that first sentence. Heh.
Call it disagreement over terminology if you wish, but the fact remains that the term "centrist" has been co-opted. It's meant to project the imagery of a studied individual who weighs each issue and candidate independently and then makes an informed decision, when really it most often means someone who most likely lets an october surprise pick who he votes for. Even if we use a 2 dimensional political spectrum, a "centrist" is only all the more illustrated as being wishy-washy than on a 1 dimensional scale.

I mean, it can keep going and going.

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You call Reagan a "bastard offspring of goldwater," I'd say it would be closer to say "disowned." Goldwater hated what the republican party became under Reagan.
Added at: 17:40
Oh, and Eisenhower left Europe holding the bag during the Suez crisis.

GasBandit said:

Speaking of terminology, WOW did I need 3 read-throughs and a map to make it through that first sentence. Heh.

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Yeah I actually raged at someone who used "post-structuralist" in a political discussion before. I think I basically plagiarised the good will hunting speech and told him to get over the BS philosophy they taught him in his first year at law school. It really is a good term for what I'm talking about though (it was good when he used it too, but I had just seen good will hunting).

Call it disagreement over terminology if you wish, but the fact remains that the term "centrist" has been co-opted. It's meant to project the imagery of a studied individual who weighs each issue and candidate independently and then makes an informed decision, when really it most often means someone who most likely lets an october surprise pick who he votes for. Even if we use a 2 dimensional political spectrum, a "centrist" is only all the more illustrated as being wishy-washy than on a 1 dimensional scale.

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That's true for some voters, but even for them I would rather have the dispassionate voter than the fanatical ones we see so much of today.

You call Reagan a "bastard offspring of goldwater," I'd say it would be closer to say "disowned." Goldwater hated what the republican party became under Reagan.

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Well yeah, Reagan was like that "other son" that he didn't like to talk about at parties.
Added at: 17:40

Oh, and Eisenhower left Europe holding the bag during the Suez crisis.

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Worst president ever.

Also, on reading stufff about him we have the following:

-Bay of Pigs was actually planned during his presidency.
-Expanded Social Security
-CIA deposed/assasinated a ton of leaders during his presidency. In some ways he initiated a lot of the espionage/wet work heavy side of the cold war.
-Did not intervene in Vietnam early enough, but pushed for JFK to go after it. Partially responsible for a lot of JFK's mistakes.
-Did not do much to stop the McCarthy hunts.
-Admitted Hawaii as a state. Millions of lazy hawaiians soon imigrated to the US.

Necronic said:

-Admitted Hawaii as a state. Millions of lazy hawaiians soon imigrated to the US.

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Is this some kind of joke that I'm not getting? Neither the laziness nor the millions makes sense to me.

drifter said:

Is this some kind of joke that I'm not getting?

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Yes.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

The Interstate system has made traffic worse for every major city.

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The interstate system has made it possible for the country to function and allowed imports to reach the furthest reaches of the nation. Without it cities would be starved for supplies. Designed for defense, it's been the most important national advancement since rail roads.

Note: I don't actually believe that, it is an argument I have heard against Ike

GasBandit said:

Yes.

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Wonderful. Now would someone be so nice as to provide some context so as to ease my confusion?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Note: I don't actually believe that, it is an argument I have heard against Ike

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Seems like a pretty lame argument, particularly if you weigh the historical benefits we got from the interstate system, at the time it was implemented, and the cons, traffic congestion over connecting the nation both economically, culturally, etc etc is pretty small beans

drifter said:

Wonderful. Now would someone be so nice as to provide some context so as to ease my confusion?

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No.

Gilman Chatsworth said:

Seems like a pretty lame argument, particularly if you weigh the historical benefits we got from the interstate system, at the time it was implemented, and the cons, traffic congestion over connecting the nation both economically, culturally, etc etc is pretty small beans

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Traffic congestion was far worse before the interstate. That is even taking into consideration that there were far fewer people and cars back then.

Charlie thinks he's


But he's really