I'm not inventing anything. Zimmerman followed Martin in his car. He confronted him at some point. Or have I missed something?
Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats
- Thread starter GasBandit
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You missed the part where you posted " If I start a bar fight, begin to lose, and then kill the other guy with a weapon, I would still be guilty of manslaughter."
My argument is that by following Martin, Zimmerman initiated the altercation that followed. Now, are you telling me that he did not follow Martin? That he did not get out of the car and confront Martin, which was against the specific instructions given to him by the 911 dispatcher?
1. Following is not confronting. As captain of the neighborhood watch, he not only had a right, but a responsibility to at least observe any suspicious activity in the neighborhood
2. As I said earlier, he has admitted following, losing the kid and then heading back to his truck. He is on recording as saying he's heading back to his truck. "I lost him".
3. If he lost him, how did he suddenly find him on his way back to his truck?
4. There were no specific instructions to stop following him. There was a suggestion that "We don't need you to do that." with respect to following Martin, to which he responds "okay". At which point, see #2 above.
5. Despite all of this, even if he was following Martin, the second Martin punches him, the aggressor is Martin. And if Zimmerman ends up on the bottom getting ground & pounded by Martin, he is within Florida (and almost every state in the US) law to defend himself, lethally if necessary.
All of this doesn't take into account whether it was morally objectionable for him to shoot and kill this kid. You can hold something to be morally objectionable and still have it legal. Should he have shot and killed the kid? No. Did he have a right to? Possibly.
2. As I said earlier, he has admitted following, losing the kid and then heading back to his truck. He is on recording as saying he's heading back to his truck. "I lost him".
3. If he lost him, how did he suddenly find him on his way back to his truck?
4. There were no specific instructions to stop following him. There was a suggestion that "We don't need you to do that." with respect to following Martin, to which he responds "okay". At which point, see #2 above.
5. Despite all of this, even if he was following Martin, the second Martin punches him, the aggressor is Martin. And if Zimmerman ends up on the bottom getting ground & pounded by Martin, he is within Florida (and almost every state in the US) law to defend himself, lethally if necessary.
All of this doesn't take into account whether it was morally objectionable for him to shoot and kill this kid. You can hold something to be morally objectionable and still have it legal. Should he have shot and killed the kid? No. Did he have a right to? Possibly.
This ain't Morrowind folks. Even if you don't throw the first punch, you CAN still be held accountable for creating the situation that caused the punch to be thrown.
1. George Zimmerman was NOT part of the recognized neighborhood watch. Calling yourself captain of the neighborhood watch doesn't make it so, especially since authorities told him he should back off (making your point about it being his responsibility moot since it was no longer his responsibility).
Please elucidate. Because 'following' someone, especially under the auspice of being a neighborhood watch volunteer, is not one of them.
1. George Zimmerman absolutely was part of the recognized neighborhood watch.
"Taaffe said that Zimmerman was appointed as a watch captain, despite reports that he appointed himself to the post."
Doesn't play. According to the National Sherrif's Association, the parent organization of USAonwatch- Neighborhood Watch, he wasn't part of the program, and members are to act as the eyes only, not to carry firearms and not to follow suspicious suspects. Which, you know, the POLICE said.
He wasn't part of the neighborhood watch. He claims to be part of one, but he's not legally a member of one. More to the point, even if he WAS part of one, he's only supposed to report the guy and then get the hell out of there. Furthermore, he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun while on duty ether. The police told him to stop following the kid. He didn't.
That means he was essentially stalking someone in the dead of night. He willfully created the situation that lead to his assault. That means it's manslaughter.
1. He was part of the neighborhood watch. The neighbours around him said as much. Am I the only one who's read the neighbours say this?
2. He wasn't on duty. He was running an errand and saw someone acting suspicious.
3. The police told him that he didn't need to follow the kid. He said "okay" and headed back to his vehicle. This is on the recorded 911 call. Listen to it yourself here:
All I can ask you to do is listen to the call.
2. He wasn't on duty. He was running an errand and saw someone acting suspicious.
3. The police told him that he didn't need to follow the kid. He said "okay" and headed back to his vehicle. This is on the recorded 911 call. Listen to it yourself here:
All I can ask you to do is listen to the call.
Well, if the neighbors say so, it must be true.
I'll just leave this here. Not much else to do but shake my head.
I'll just leave this here. Not much else to do but shake my head.
M
makare
I have never quite understood Adam's zealous defense of Zimmerman given the facts as I have seen them. I don't know if he was right or wrong but the evidence definitely doesn't give him a clean break.
S
SeraRelm
I like how they used a photo of him in a school football uniform then skewed the story to make him sound weak and defenseless against a guy who "outweighed him by 110 pounds." 
I'm defending the truth, not Zimmerman. And as each piece of evidence comes to light, it underscores the initial narrative was incredibly anti-Zimmerman for reasons I can't explain. We've seen pictures of the back of his head right after the incident, we have a medical report detailing his injuries, we have an eye witness stating they say Martin on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman yelling for help. And despite all that, so many people have decided guilt because that's what they have been sold.
S
SeraRelm
Racism sells. It would have barely scratched a news outlet if they were the same skin tone.
M
makare
That's the truth you have decided on. It isn't the truth I have seen represented in the story.
M
makare
I guess what gets me most is the difference between the law and what is right. Legally Zimmerman is probably protected by the stand your ground law but as far as what I consider right if you follow some kid, at night, in the dark, and he beats the shit out of you - GOOD. What should have happened was Zimmerman should have taken his ass kicking and gone on with his life a little wiser. Instead this kid is dead. Was he a "good" kid or a strong kid? I don't know. But I'll tell you this much, if someone confronts short, fat me in the dark when I am walking around minding my own business things are probably going to get ugly.
S
SeraRelm
On the other side of that, if someone is beating the shit out of you and you don't know when, or even if they're going to stop, what do you do?
M
makare
I'd do my best to get away before using any kind of deadly force. Not that I would ever carry a gun anyway.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for Zimmerman. I'd like to see him go to jail just for stupidity but that isn't a crime. Which is probably a good thing since the jails are generally over full already.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for Zimmerman. I'd like to see him go to jail just for stupidity but that isn't a crime. Which is probably a good thing since the jails are generally over full already.
S
SeraRelm
I'm pretty much just pointing out the gaping flaw in your "he should just take his lumps" argument.
M
makare
In stress situations human beings do all sorts of stupid shit. I understand what Zimmerman did I'd probably do the same thing but it is still the wrong thing to do.
S
SeraRelm
Given hindsight, we all seem wiser than an observed subject.
M
makare
I'll clarify by saying the stupid thing Zimmerman did was be there in the first place. After that there was very little chance that the situation was going to come out well for anyone. When I say what should have happened was him getting his ass kicked and going on with life I know that was a very unlikely thing to happen. It is kind of an ideal. Of course he is going to defend himself as best he can, as anyone would. He just should never have been in that situation in the first place and since he was there the best outcome would have been learning a very hefty lesson from it.
Although, I guess he has learned that lesson this way too. Too bad someone had to die for it to happen.
Although, I guess he has learned that lesson this way too. Too bad someone had to die for it to happen.
[EDIT] Thought of a better one. Martin's biggest mistake was beating up Zimmerman, he shouldn't have placed himself in that situation to begin with.
While we're Monday morning quarterbacking with makare, I'll also add that the coach shouldn't have been so cocky and tried to get the TD instead of the easy field goal.
Agreed.
GasBandit
Staff member
Environmental Police close down ice cream stand for constructing an addition without a permit, and stood guard over the weekend directing customers to leave. In other news, Massachusetts has Environmental Police.
I'm actually not with you on this one. He runs a farm in a state park, leasing it from the state on certain terms, he's violating those terms, and he got caught. This isn't even a case of private property, because it wasn't his property. If it was about a private farm that was doing so, it would be completely different, but this is not anything like that.
How would you like it if you rented property to somebody and they built a second garage on the property, without permits as well? I think you as the landowner would be justifiably pissed. This is the same.
GasBandit
Staff member
I would agree with that, it's just it seemed a tad bit excessive to have armed agents actively blockade the ice cream stand all weekend rather than serve the guy a summons and go. If you run a red light, does the policeman stand guard over you until you show up to court? Also, Environmental Police.
GasBandit
Staff member
http://exp.lore.com/post/23227988835/50-years-of-government-spending-in-a-single
"50 years of government spending, in a single graph by Lam Thuy Vo for NPR."
NPR. Didn't expect THAT didja Krisky?! HA!
I just wanted a source, not to rag on it,
Edit: There, I like that better.
GasBandit
Staff member
C'mon, you know you thought I was going to post some obscure blog as the source, and you were gonna all be like "Gassy, that guy's just some psycho right wing nutjob nobody's heard of," and I'd be all like "so's your mom!" and you'd have been all "boo hoo!" and I'd have been all "ha ha!" and then the king of the internet would come and give me a virtual castle filled with hot bitches.
Actually, I just forgot to post the source, but your immediate request for the source prompted me to have fun with it.