Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

I would love to argue talk about Iran. I just thought everybody else would be tired of it from the last time. Which... seemed to be borne out because everybody focused on the nobel part.

Unfortunately, 6pm on a friday means I'm probably about to vanish until monday.

But hey, why not get that ball rolling! Do you, TommiR, think that military intervention in Iran will be necessary, or could even be justified?
Excellent. Unfortunately it's past 2 am on Saturday over here, and I've had an indeterminate number of beers. I think I'll go to bed, but I will get back to you on Iran tommorrow.

Edit: I will preface my position by saying that military action against Iran may well become necessary, though I'm not sure whether it will have the impact that people seem to be harping about on the possible Iranian nuclear weapons program. Justified is more of a moral call, but I usually am of the opinion that action on these things is justified on different grounds than morals. I'll present my arguments tommorrow. Good night.
 
Here are some of my opinions on Iran and it's possible nuclear weapons development program.

The first question that needs to be assessed is whether or not Iran does in fact have a weapons dimension in it's nuclear program. It seems fairly likely they had one until 2003, though it is uncertain how far they got with it. Their failure to comply fully with IAEA inspections after 2006 does raise eyebrows, and IAEA has not been able to verify the matter one way or the other, though they have some suspicions that, indeed, the weapons program did begin again:

42. The information which serves as the basis for the Agency’s analysis and concerns, as identified in the Annex, is assessed by the Agency to be, overall, credible. The information comes from a wide variety of independent sources, including from a number of Member States, from the Agency’s own efforts and from information provided by Iran itself. It is consistent in terms of technical content, individuals and organizations involved, and time frames.

43. The information indicates that Iran has carried out the following activities that are relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device:
• Efforts, some successful, to procure nuclear related and dual use equipment and materials by military related individuals and entities (Annex, Sections C.1 and C.2);
• Efforts to develop undeclared pathways for the production of nuclear material (Annex, Section C.3);
• The acquisition of nuclear weapons development information and documentation from a clandestine nuclear supply network (Annex, Section C.4); and
• Work on the development of an indigenous design of a nuclear weapon including the testing of components (Annex, Sections C.5–C.12).

44. While some of the activities identified in the Annex have civilian as well as military applications, others are specific to nuclear weapons.
So why would it be bad if Iran got it's hands on some nuclear firepower? Well, I don't think they'd attack Israel, regardless of fears brought up by some statements from the iranian leadership. Of course, you have the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and breaking it is bad for valid reasons, but I'll leave that aside for now as a matter of international law. Concentrating on the possible effects it would have in the area, a nuclear Iran would encourage arab states to also think about acquiring nuclear weapons to counteract the massive trump card Iran would have, in order to resist it's domination. Or real nuclear guarantees from an outside power. And I'm not sure sufficient guarantees to that effect would be forthcoming; witness the decision of the european powers to acquire nuclear weapons to resist the Soviet Union, in spite of US assurances of a nuclear umbrella. And a neighbourhood where several arab states had nuclear weapons would be a grave threat to Israel, itself thought to be an undeclared nuclear power, which would loose a big ace up it's sleeve in any possible future war against arab states.

If the decision is made to engage Iran militarily, how would it go? As in Libya, the campaign would begin by dismantling the iranian air defence. Also as a target would be the iranian military assets capable of blocking the Strait of Hormuz, which is a major oil artery of the world. I think only after this would the real work of attacking iranian nuclear facilities commence. It is a major undertaking, and unless the iranians roll over and play dead immediately, may last a long time. But there are several risks and difficulties associated with it. For one, there are grave doubts about the capabilities of conventional ordinance to take out iranian underground facilities. Also, some israeli military leaders have doubts about attacking Iran. And If the attack fails, then one of the very few options remaining would be regime change. Which would require boots on the ground, either US or allies military, or an indiginous force capable of taking out the iranian leadership with air and other support from the allies before the political will weakens too much in western countries.

So, is it worth all this, all the blood and treasure that would possibly need to be expended to really put a stop on the iranian military nuclear program, in case diplomatic pressure and negotiations fail? I'm of the opinion that yes, it is, though I do admit that the people who have doubts about the matter do have some decent points as well.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
... well, this is going to be a short debate, TommiR . Because I agree with everything you just said. I hate it when that happens.

Unless somebody else has another viewpoint....?
 
M

makare

Yeah I have to really analyze the things Penn says because it is all yeah yeah I agree up until he gets to a certain point and then I think what? now that is really bullshit Penn.

The whole drug war seems to take out a lot of the wrong people. Although for the ones like my sister it isn't about drugs it is just about wanting to engage in lawless behavior and push the system. No leniency is going to save those guys.
 
I'd just like to point out that, strictly speaking, I was discussing the style of dress among Taiwanese girls.

However, I would welcome an animated debate, with pictures, regarding which side of the Strait has sluttier dressers.

Regarding the revelations of institutionalized xenophobia in China, I have to say I'm not surprised. There's a perception among the Chinese, possibly deliberately perpetuated by the government, that the west is determined to keep them down and treat them like they're inferior. Put another way, I'm sure Chinese men have raped Chinese women too, but where are the TV show hosts calling all Chinese people trash?
 
I'd just like to point out that, strictly speaking, I was discussing the style of dress among Taiwanese girls.

However, I would welcome an animated debate, with pictures, regarding which side of the Strait has sluttier dressers.

Regarding the revelations of institutionalized xenophobia in China, I have to say I'm not surprised. There's a perception among the Chinese, possibly deliberately perpetuated by the government, that the west is determined to keep them down and treat them like they're inferior. Put another way, I'm sure Chinese men have raped Chinese women too, but where are the TV show hosts calling all Chinese people trash?
I'll be honest, I haven't been to an Asian country yet that doesn't have some form of institutionalized xenophobia. I'll give China credit for the fact that despite being closed for as long as they were, I still haven't after nearly 5 years seen a "No foreigners allowed" sign like I did in Tokyo.

But no, Yang Rui is indeed an asshole, but, from what I've seen most Chinese comments about his rant were anything but supportive. Thank God.

LET'S STAY POSITIVE PEOPLE.
 
I was told to my face I couldn't stay in a particular hotel in Shanghai because I was a foreigner.
I was told that once too, and then I found out why. The hotel in question didn't have a license for foreign customers and by law wasn't allowed to let me stay. That happened to me only once, and it was Hanting hotel in Xuhui district. Which was fine, because I just went across the street to the 如家酒店.
 
I'll be honest, I haven't been to an Asian country yet that doesn't have some form of institutionalized xenophobia. I'll give China credit for the fact that despite being closed for as long as they were, I still haven't after nearly 5 years seen a "No foreigners allowed" sign like I did in Tokyo.

But no, Yang Rui is indeed an asshole, but, from what I've seen most Chinese comments about his rant were anything but supportive. Thank God.

LET'S STAY POSITIVE PEOPLE.
That's fair, and in fact I'd say it goes beyond Asian countries, it happens on other continents too. I'm lookin' at you, France.

However, surely you'd agree there's a popular perception in China that the west is trying to keep China down?
 
That's fair, and in fact I'd say it goes beyond Asian countries, it happens on other continents too. I'm lookin' at you, France.

However, surely you'd agree there's a popular perception in China that the west is trying to keep China down?
...Yes? I say that with a question mark because it's sometimes hard to draw the line between what say, the People's Daily puts in its editorials, and what the average dude on the street thinks.
 
...Yes? I say that with a question mark because it's sometimes hard to draw the line between what say, the People's Daily puts in its editorials, and what the average dude on the street thinks.
You mean all 1.3 billion of them don't think the same way? Dammit, stop complicating my black-and-white worldview with reality. :p
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Well, to be fair, a fair amount of American foreign policy thinking IS plainly to keep China from rising to Hegemonic proportions. If that's even possible anymore. And yeah, Japan's f'd up.
 

GasBandit

Staff member


Bill Clinton was spotted recently at a Monte Carlo casino posing for pictures with porn stars, including Brooklyn Lee (on the right), and Tasha Reign. Lee — who posted the pic on her Twitter account Wednesday — recently won an award for “Best Sex Scene” in Mission Asspossible. Reign’s film credits include Baby Got Boobs 8 and Farm Girls Gone Bad. The identity of the gal on the far left hasn’t been confirmed, but chances are…
 

Necronic

Staff member
I think people underestimate the (very justified) cultural bitterness there is in the east against the west. Almost every culture was pushed to the brink by imperialist western countries. What the british did to China is close to unforgiveable frankly (bringing their culture so close to the brink with the 2 opium wars that they ended up going through 100 years of turmoil and privation switching from nationalization to communism and finally to their current system.) And in fairness to the anti-western xenophobia that exists there, it's not just external. Pretty much everyone over there hates the Japanese. I've yet to meet an older Korean national that didn't have some pretty terrible things to say about them.

And then there's the Chinese/Indian thing. There's just a lot of tension over there. It's like a bad dinner party that never ends.
 
It doesn't help that we're on their case about a lot of stuff already.

For instance, we give them VERY mixed signals about coal. On one hand, we keep trying to get them to cut back on coal power because of the sheer amount of they use for their energy needs and it's environmental impact on the world/region. On the other hand, we sell them the coal.
 
I think people underestimate the (very justified) cultural bitterness there is in the east against the west. Almost every culture was pushed to the brink by imperialist western countries. What the british did to China is close to unforgiveable frankly (bringing their culture so close to the brink with the 2 opium wars that they ended up going through 100 years of turmoil and privation switching from nationalization to communism and finally to their current system.)
Of course, a look at the history of China with respect to imperialism indicates that they themselves weren't all rainbows and butterflies either. Though the reality is naturally more complex, I'd venture to guess that if a simplistic catch-all explanation were to be offered concerning China's stance and possible ambitions, it would have something to do with the tables having turned.
Well, to be fair, a fair amount of American foreign policy thinking IS plainly to keep China from rising to Hegemonic proportions. If that's even possible anymore.
Well, balance of power would indicate that it was only a matter of time until others started to engage in balancing behavior against the preponderant position of the US after the fall of the Soviet Union.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Some copypasta from the Daily What:


CISPA, the Cyber Information Sharing and Protection Act that passed the House in April, likely is headed for a Senate vote in early June.
To drum up opposition to the legislation, which would create “a ‘cybersecurity’ exemption to all existing laws,” Fight for the Future, Democrats.com, The Liberty Coalition, and the Entertainment Consumers Association have created a new website called Privacy Is Awesome. The site outlines the top five ways to help defeat CISPA:
  • Call your senators and tell them to oppose the Lieberman-Collins bill (CISPA), and ask for a constituent meeting during the Memorial Day recess to help change their mind.
  • Email senators offices about CISPA, expressing your opposition.
  • Keep calling senators until they plan a constituent meeting.
  • Donate to anti-CISPA organizers — the same teams that helped defeat SOPA/PIPA.
  • Share your opposition online — Facebook, Twitter, etc.
Meanwhile, Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., is spearheading opposition to the legislation, concluding a recent Senate floor speech with:
I believe these bills will encourage the development of a cyber security industry that profits from fear and whose currency is Americans private data. These bills create a Cyber Industrial Complex that has an interest in preserving the problem to which it is the solution.​
Watch the full video here.
 

Necronic

Staff member
You know what

Screw that. Don't apologize. It's ok to discuss a word, its uses, and its implications. I think it's important to have a dialogue about the use of the word heroes with regard to fallen soldiers, or soldiers in general. I don't agree with his assessment that the word may justify more warfare. My own personal take is that they do one of the worst jobs in the world, and I am grateful to them for that. And for that reason they ARE heros. But I don't want to use the word so carelessly that I forget it's meaning. If every member of the armed services is a hero, are any of them?

It's important to discuss words and their meanings in our cultures. Don't mistake this as me comparing this with Limbaughs linguistic linguini, that was different. That was an entirely innapropriate misuse of a word in an attempt to slander someone (and to get ratings.) The hayes thing is different. And yeah, it probably was a bad idea to have this conversation on memorial day, and yeah his entire argument is pretty bad. But if he's to be lambasted it should be for having a kind of weak argument and for understanding that there is a "time and place" for these conversations (we don't talk about how the old dude who used to play santa turned out to be a perv on Christmas eve do we?).
 
Top