Texas Republican Party Seeks Ban on Critical Thinking

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GasBandit

Staff member
So, in a counter soundbite. This is another reason I don't believe in de-regulation:

Because it turns out that a lot of people really ARE cheaters

This article flat out disgusts me in ways that no story about welfare ever could. You want to see cancer. THIS is cancer. Welfare states represent significant moral hazards that are dangerous. Business cultures that embrace cheating are flat out evil.
The difference is one is still illegal even in the hated, vilified "open market," the other is institutionalized and backed up by the government monopoly of lethal force.
 

Necronic

Staff member
True enough I guess. But consider this. Why is it that Republicans want Voter ID laws in place to increase scrutiny on voter fraud that, while illegal, is by all measures insignificant, but don't want to increase scrutiny on people who control the world economy and admit to being dishonest (and who, by the way, did a good job destroying the economy through their dishonesty, pretty recently I think you heard about it)?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
True enough I guess. But consider this. Why is it that Republicans want Voter ID laws in place to increase scrutiny on voter fraud that, while illegal, is by all measures insignificant, but don't want to increase scrutiny on people who control the world economy and admit to being dishonest (and who, by the way, did a good job destroying the economy through their dishonesty, pretty recently I think you heard about it)?
I wasn't aware that wall street investment firms were the targets of environmental regulations, which is what I thought we were talking about. Additionally, you're placing all the blame on the dirty, dirty, scumbag richie-rich-rich bankers when government was just as culpable, if not moreso, for causing the economic collapse... particularly democrats such as Barney Frank and Chris Dodd who padded their nest eggs and screamed bloody racist murder if anyone ever brought up that maybe we shouldn't be financing mortgages to people who stand absolutely no chance of repaying it.

Voter ID laws, however, are plain common sense. The only believable reason to be opposed is that you plan to, or currently already do, benefit from voter fraud.
 

Necronic

Staff member
I wasn't aware that wall street investment firms were the targets of environmental regulations, which is what I thought we were talking about. Additionally, you're placing all the blame on the dirty, dirty, scumbag richie-rich-rich bankers when government was just as culpable, if not moreso, for causing the economic collapse... particularly democrats such as Barney Frank and Chris Dodd who padded their nest eggs and screamed bloody racist murder if anyone ever brought up that maybe we shouldn't be financing mortgages to people who stand absolutely no chance of repaying it.
eh, ok that's fair enough I guess. It wasn't just wall street, there were many cooks in that pot. I would love to see a corresponding survey of industrial executives on a similar question but more environmentally based. I doubt they would be dumb enough to answer the way these guys did even if it was true. For some reason Wall Street types seem more willing to revel in their misdeeds (see GS Elevator, if anyone talked like that where I worked they would be fired in a heartbeat).

Voter ID laws, however, are plain common sense. The only believable reason to be opposed is that you plan to, or currently already do, benefit from voter fraud.
Well, the problem of poll taxes is still there. I get that you don't agree with it. I don't know where I stand myself. But I accept that it's a complex issue (although a simple, free voter ID would fix it) hence why I don't push it.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I think it's been established now that there is not a single activity, or lack thereof, that the government does not think it can constitutionally tax you for.
 
Well, the problem of poll taxes is still there. I get that you don't agree with it. I don't know where I stand myself. But I accept that it's a complex issue (although a simple, free voter ID would fix it) hence why I don't push it.
This is pretty much the entire issue: The people pushing for the voter ID laws aren't willing to provide a free alternative to the driver's license/state Id/passport. Without it, it's a poll tax. Apparently the dollar it costs to make a laminated card is too much to ensure people can vote.

But then again, I still think it's stupid that Election Day isn't a national holiday. More people would vote if they didn't have to compete with their jobs and other responsibilities to do it.

Fuck it, why don't we just make all voting be done by absentee ballet? Then we don't need to worry about ids at all.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I think there are already too many people voting. But I'd not turn down a day off to do it.

But the poll tax argument is stupid. You have to have an ID to do anything else already. Rent a car or pretty much any other equipment. Fly on an airline. Open a bank account. Get a job. Drive. A. Car. If the letter of the law is so damn inflexible that having to get an ID constitutes a poll tax, then we'd be deporting illegals left, right, and center.
 
I think there are already too many people voting. But I'd not turn down a day off to do it.

But the poll tax argument is stupid. You have to have an ID to do anything else already. Rent a car or pretty much any other equipment. Fly on an airline. Open a bank account. Get a job. Drive. A. Car. If the letter of the law is so damn inflexible that having to get an ID constitutes a poll tax, then we'd be deporting illegals left, right, and center.
I wonder what would happen if someone showed up to a polling pace in nothing but their boxers (or birthday suit) and tried to vote. Also it's a shame there's no such thing as non-profit organizations, who spend time and money getting people registered to vote.
 
Fuck it, why don't we just make all voting be done by absentee ballet? Then we don't need to worry about ids at all.
I don't necessarily know that you want to start down that road. The state of Washington has gone full mail-in-ballot voting over the past two years, and now the Governor keeps lobbying (successfully, I might add) for the cancellation of primary elections because it costs the state too much money to mail ballots out - and they don't even have to pay for the ballots to be mailed back, we have to pay our own postage to vote (note, I'm not complaining about having to pay 40-some-odd cents to exercise my right to vote, just mentioning that the state doesn't have to pay for the return postage). Not to mention the fact that, since the USPS is far from the most efficient postal service in the world, it's not uncommon for people to not get their ballots on time, or at all - and if that happens you have to try to find a polling place that's still open on election day so you can vote, while most of them have been shut down because "we're all mail-in voting now."
 

Necronic

Staff member
Didn't mean to side track, just wanted to use the Voter ID thing as an example of a crime that was not enforced. Pot may have been a better example, I dunno.

Anyways, back to the topic, I am kind of curious what you (Gas Bandit) thinks about Cheating (with a big C), as a libertarian. It strikes me as one of the most dangerous bits of human nature wrg to libertarianism.
 
I wonder what would happen if someone showed up to a polling pace in nothing but their boxers (or birthday suit) and tried to vote. Also it's a shame there's no such thing as non-profit organizations, who spend time and money getting people registered to vote.
The largest group that was trying to get people out to vote was shut down a few years ago with clever editing.[DOUBLEPOST=1342039056][/DOUBLEPOST]
I think there are already too many people voting. But I'd not turn down a day off to do it.

But the poll tax argument is stupid. You have to have an ID to do anything else already. Rent a car or pretty much any other equipment. Fly on an airline. Open a bank account. Get a job. Drive. A. Car. If the letter of the law is so damn inflexible that having to get an ID constitutes a poll tax, then we'd be deporting illegals left, right, and center.
If you are too poor as fuck to have a bank account, drive a car, fly on airliners... why have an ID?
 
If you can't afford a bank account you're well beyond poor as fuck. You're flat broke, homeless, and seemingly incapable of having any kind of assistance.
 
The largest group that was trying to get people out to vote was shut down a few years ago with clever editing.[DOUBLEPOST=1342039056][/DOUBLEPOST]

If you are too poor as fuck to have a bank account, drive a car, fly on airliners... why have an ID?
To prove who you are. To keep from getting deported. To be identifiable after mugging/death/accident. To be able to identify yourself for things like movie theaters or bars, where you have to be over age X to enter/drink/... .
 

GasBandit

Staff member
If you can't afford a bank account you're well beyond poor as fuck. You're flat broke, homeless, and seemingly incapable of having any kind of assistance.

But hey, we should still let you wield power to determine the nation's future, mister absolutely incapable of functioning as an adult human being.[DOUBLEPOST=1342039391][/DOUBLEPOST]
The largest group that was trying to get people out to vote was shut down a few years ago with clever editing.[DOUBLEPOST=1342039056][/DOUBLEPOST]

If you are too poor as fuck to have a bank account, drive a car, fly on airliners... why have an ID?
That other one in the middle. To get. a. job.
 

Necronic

Staff member
But hey, we should still let you wield power to determine the nation's future, mister absolutely incapable of functioning as an adult human being.
Eh, there's plenty of people who have jobs and whatnot that are absolute scum. They get to vote.

It's not a popularity contest. Oh...well it is but its in the other direction.
 
To prove who you are. To keep from getting deported. To be identifiable after mugging/death/accident. To be able to identify yourself for things like movie theaters or bars, where you have to be over age X to enter/drink/... .
So it is just a way to put a yoke over our necks. Hell anyone can fake these ID cards. Why not just put RFID chips in all citizens?
 
But the poll tax argument is stupid. You have to have an ID to do anything else already. Rent a car or pretty much any other equipment. Fly on an airline. Open a bank account. Get a job. Drive. A. Car. If the letter of the law is so damn inflexible that having to get an ID constitutes a poll tax, then we'd be deporting illegals left, right, and center.
I have another intro for that list of yours: name four things that the desperately poor frequently don't do! And then you compare apples to oranges. Different legal theories, different enforcement agencies, different legal histories, etc.

Also, it turns out that this "voter fraud" problem that's such a big issue that Republicans are calling emergency sessions about it? The same crime which you say is the only reason anyone would oppose voter ID laws? It doesn't fucking happen:
In her 2010 book, The Myth of Voter Fraud, Lorraine Minnite tracked down every single case brought by the Justice Department between 1996 and 2005 and found that the number of defendants had increased by roughly 1,000 percent under Ashcroft. But that only represents an increase from about six defendants per year to 60, and only a fraction of those were ever convicted of anything. A New York Times investigation in 2007 concluded that only 86 people had been convicted of voter fraud during the previous five years. Many of those appear to have simply made mistakes on registration forms or misunderstood eligibility rules, and more than 30 of the rest were penny-ante vote-buying schemes in local races for judge or sheriff. The investigation found virtually no evidence of any organized efforts to skew elections at the federal level.
Another set of studies has examined the claims of activist groups like Thor Hearne's American Center for Voting Rights, which released a report in 2005 citing more than 100 cases involving nearly 300,000 allegedly fraudulent votes during the 2004 election cycle. The charges involved sensational-sounding allegations of double-voting, fraudulent addresses, and voting by felons and noncitizens. But in virtually every case they dissolved upon investigation. Some of them were just flatly false, and others were the result of clerical errors. Minnite painstakingly investigated each of the center's charges individually and found only 185 votes that were even potentially fraudulent.
The Brennan Center for Justice at New York University has focused on voter fraud issues for years. In a 2007 report they concluded that "by any measure, voter fraud is extraordinarily rare." In the Missouri election of 2000 that got Sen. Bond so worked up, the Center found a grand total of four cases of people voting twice, out of more than 2 million ballots cast. In the end, the verified fraud rate was 0.0003 percent.
 
This form of Government Control is why conservatives were against Social Security, because it forced you to have a Government Issue ID. Hell nowadays you can't take a crap in a Gov't building without showing/giving your SSN.
 
Well Fargo offers a checking account that costs $7 a month ($9 for paper statements) unless you have either $1500 daily balance (can be hard on a low income, I know) or direct deposit of at least $500 dollars per statement period (also known as a month), in which case the statement fee is waived. Every other bank I've been with has similar checking accounts.
 
So it is just a way to put a yoke over our necks. Hell anyone can fake these ID cards. Why not just put RFID chips in all citizens?
They want to. They are already putting them in all passports and are working on putting them in state IDs in some states. It's really only a matter of time before they start doing it to people. I think the only thing keeping them from doing it now is that it's just too damn easy to overwrite the data on the chips or steal the info from it.
 
This form of Government Control is why conservatives were against Social Security, because it forced you to have a Government Issue ID. Hell nowadays you can't take a crap in a Gov't building without showing/giving your SSN.
and heaven forbid there's a face associated with that number.[DOUBLEPOST=1342040019][/DOUBLEPOST]
All you need is a SSN.
Really? I can't remember the last job I took that didn't require two forms of picture identification (unless you had a passport, then you just needed that).
 
and heaven forbid there's a face associated with that number.
For the first 50 years of S.S. it was illegal to use it as an ID. My original SSN card still said that. I am complaining about the level of private citizen control these ID's represent.[DOUBLEPOST=1342040084][/DOUBLEPOST]
and heaven forbid there's a face associated with that number.[DOUBLEPOST=1342040019][/DOUBLEPOST]
Really? I can't remember the last job I took that didn't require two forms of picture identification (unless you had a passport, then you just needed that).
It made you feel like a free man too, I bet.
 
If you can't afford a bank account you're well beyond poor as fuck. You're flat broke, homeless, and seemingly incapable of having any kind of assistance.
Bull fucking shit. Poor urban areas are just full of check cashing places, payday loan establishments, and the like. It's people who are trying to support themselves and a family on a minimum wage income, the people who live in poverty. They exist and they have just as much of a right to a voice in this country as anyone else, dipshit.
But hey, we should still let you wield power to determine the nation's future, mister absolutely incapable of functioning as an adult human being.
You miss the days when wealthy, white, male landowners were the only voters, don't you?
That other one in the middle. To get. a. job.
I sure as shit didn't have my driver's license when I got my first job. As I recall, I used my college ID plus my birth certificate and my SSN, also, this:
Pamela Weaver, spokeswoman of the Mississippi Secretary of State's office, today confirmed the catch-22 problem, which the Jackson Free Press learned about from a complaint posted on Facebook. One of the requirements to get the free voter ID cards is a birth certificate, but in order to receive a certified copy of your birth certificate in Mississippi, you must have a photo ID. Not having the photo ID is why most people need the voter ID in the first place.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I have another intro for that list of yours: name four things that the desperately poor frequently don't do! And then you compare apples to oranges. Different legal theories, different enforcement agencies, different legal histories, etc.
I have never had a job that did not require me to furnish at least one picture ID, including washing dishes at the olive garden when I was 16.

They're both laws, and the purpose was to demonstrate that the letter of the law is not ironclad. Not in immigration, not in speed limits, but suddenly a buck to get an ID is tantamount to jim crow. You say it's apples and oranges, I say it's cherry picking for political gain.

Eh, there's plenty of people who have jobs and whatnot that are absolute scum. They get to vote.

It's not a popularity contest. Oh...well it is but its in the other direction.
That there are scum that can hold a job better than them is not an effective argument in their defense.

This form of Government Control is why conservatives were against Social Security, because it forced you to have a Government Issue ID. Hell nowadays you can't take a crap in a Gov't building without showing/giving your SSN.
Now conservatives are against social security because it's a bankrupt ponzi scheme.


Also, it turns out that this "voter fraud" problem that's such a big issue that Republicans are calling emergency sessions about it? The same crime which you say is the only reason anyone would oppose voter ID laws? It doesn't fucking happen:
Except in north carolina, I guess.

 
Bull fucking shit. Poor urban areas are just full of check cashing places, payday loan establishments, and the like. It's people who are trying to support themselves and a family on a minimum wage income, the people who live in poverty. They exist and they have just as much of a right to a voice in this country as anyone else, dipshit.
Hey fucktard (see I can do it too!) minimum wage jobs are still more than $500 per month, which is all it takes to have a checking account that costs you nothing. It is absurd to say that someone can't afford a bank account.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Bull fucking shit. Poor urban areas are just full of check cashing places, payday loan establishments, and the like. It's people who are trying to support themselves and a family on a minimum wage income, the people who live in poverty. They exist and they have just as much of a right to a voice in this country as anyone else, dipshit.
Actually, they do have as much of a right, which is to say, none at all. There is no federally provided right to vote. That's left to the states to decide how they get their voting in the electoral college done (and yes, some of them have the "right to vote" defined in their state constitutions). But even all that aside, you're easily shown to be wrong, because just about everything you described is a consequence of terrible choices made, which demonstrates an inability to make good choices, which if anything should be a disqualifier for voting, lest your propensity for bad decisions make the country that much worse. Oh, and I like the "dipshit" thrown in there. Really solidifies your argument.

You miss the days when wealthy, white, male landowners were the only voters, don't you?
Congratulations! Your ad hominem wins you the argument! What'll you do now, go to disney world? No, I miss the days when we made at least a token effort to make sure that we weren't driving ourselves off a cliff by voting ourselves largesse from the public coffers.

I sure as shit didn't have my driver's license when I got my first job. As I recall, I used my college ID plus my birth certificate and my SSN, also, this:
Did your College ID have a picture on it? Did it involve spending money, like, say, Tuition? Which is WAY more than it costs to get a driver's license?



Now it is a bankrupt Ponzi scheme because they could not keep their grubby little fingers out of it.
This is not an argument in its favor. If it's run by government, their fingers are in it. And there was never a time where their fingers were NOT in social security, because there never was a trust fund - it's always gone directly into the general ledger.
 
So it is just a way to put a yoke over our necks. Hell anyone can fake these ID cards. Why not just put RFID chips in all citizens?
I'm a continental European. I'm pretty far out into libertarianism for this region, and even so....Yeah, I wouldn't mind chipping everyone and having clear-cut, correct, good IDs for everyone and anyone. It'd make a WHOLE LOT of things a LOT easier. It'd be safer, in the end. It'd avoid a fuckton of fraud and abuse.

Not everything a government does, it does badly. The Belgian IDcards with integrated chip are pretty good. Things like address and such aren't visible on the card unless for the proper authorities or with the right PIN. Far from a perfect system, but it DOES help. Bonus points for listing all kinds of medical crap on it so that if you're brought in to a hospital, they can avoid giving you crap you're allergic to and such.

Should "everyone" have access to "all" data? Certainly not. The cop that pulls me off the road for speeding doesn't need to know about my diabetes; the hospital I'm brought into after getting hit by a speeding car doesn't have to know about my speeding tickets or my abuse charges. The guy checkingwhether I'm really me for voting, only needs to know my name and face. And so on.
Should there be SOME way to ID someone? Yes, definitely. Because there's plenty of things you can do that you're not allowed to do, but don't necessarily demand an immediate arrest or whatever. And there's plenty of other good reasons to be identifiable as well.
 
I'm a continental European. I'm pretty far out into libertarianism for this region, and even so....Yeah, I wouldn't mind chipping everyone and having clear-cut, correct, good IDs for everyone and anyone. It'd make a WHOLE LOT of things a LOT easier. It'd be safer, in the end. It'd avoid a fuckton of fraud and abuse.

Not everything a government does, it does badly. The Belgian IDcards with integrated chip are pretty good. Things like address and such aren't visible on the card unless for the proper authorities or with the right PIN. Far from a perfect system, but it DOES help. Bonus points for listing all kinds of medical crap on it so that if you're brought in to a hospital, they can avoid giving you crap you're allergic to and such.

Should "everyone" have access to "all" data? Certainly not. The cop that pulls me off the road for speeding doesn't need to know about my diabetes; the hospital I'm brought into after getting hit by a speeding car doesn't have to know about my speeding tickets or my abuse charges. The guy checkingwhether I'm really me for voting, only needs to know my name and face. And so on.
Should there be SOME way to ID someone? Yes, definitely. Because there's plenty of things you can do that you're not allowed to do, but don't necessarily demand an immediate arrest or whatever. And there's plenty of other good reasons to be identifiable as well.
Having everyone chipped will sure make it easier to drag the right ones off.... /godwin.
 
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