I have to pay taxes now; you're fired!

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I've been hearing malarkey about some CEO in Nevada laying of 24 Hispanic workers from his 110 person workforce specifically because Obama won the election, there was a story of one boss telling his workers to vote Romney or they're fired, and now this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-11e2-bab2-eda299503684_story.html?tid=pm_pop

:facepalm:

Boy the wealthy sure hate to share a fraction of that pie with the rest of us.

By the way, isn't this the guy who owns the coal company that was interviewed during the attempted rescue of all of his employees in a coal mine in West VA a few years ago? The guy who pretty much didn't care about all the safety violations that caused those men to get trapped and die?
 
This makes me think of people who beat someone up and then say "see what you made me do."
Pretty much my thoughts as well. Figuring out a way to adapt to tax increases without drastically cutting the workforce? That takes actual leadership and management skills!
 
By the way, isn't this the guy who owns the coal company that was interviewed during the attempted rescue of all of his employees in a coal mine in West VA a few years ago? The guy who pretty much didn't care about all the safety violations that caused those men to get trapped and die?
Crandall Canyon Mine, Utah.

But yeah, this is the same asshole that dropped a mountain on his miners, and the rescue team that went in after them.

Then he gave a shitton of money to WVU and got a chair in the mining department of the engineering school named after him.

Just another reason to hate coal and everything it stands for. Because it was built on the corpses of men the mine owners don't give two fucks about. But they will exploit at every turn if it means more profit in their pockets.
 
Are you guys sure there aren't sound business reasons behind these layoffs?

I had a look at the US coal consumption statistics. It seems domestic demand is down, and growth in exports doesn't seem to be picking up the slack. Producers might be under market pressure to readjust capacity accordingly, and this usually means people get the boot. I don't know about any taxes, but they would presumably add to costs and thereby exacerbate the problem for producers.

EIA said:
EIA forecasts that coal production will decline by 7 percent in 2012 as domestic consumption falls. Coal production for the first three quarters (January-September) of 2012 was 46 million short tons (MMst) below the same period in 2011. EIA expects production to remain flat in 2013 as inventory draws and lower exports offset an increase in domestic consumption in the forecast. Electric power sector stocks, which ended 2011 at 175 MMst, are forecast to total 185 MMst at the end of the 2012 and 180 MMst in 2013.
http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/coal.cfm
 
Most American companies that don't rely on the holiday season as their highest sales point (i.e. companies that don't make consumer goods) finalize their budgets for the subsequent year in September. So if he were in a position of needing to let workers go as a matter of course, you would have expected him to do so within the last couple months, not immediately after the election.

Most likely, the public way in which Murray has politicized the firings is to try and blame Obama for the company's dwindling profits and not his inability to keep up as the energy market moves towards natural gas.
 
Are you guys sure there aren't sound business reasons behind these layoffs?
Looking at who he as and what he's done? No. Not a frakking chance.

He does business in the West Virginia coal fields. There are no "sound business reasons." It's "we do what we want to who we want, and we've got the politicians and courts in our pockets."

These are the people who admit to the media they're buying lawmakers and judges, and dare anyone to try and stop them.
 
Most American companies that don't rely on the holiday season as their highest sales point (i.e. companies that don't make consumer goods) finalize their budgets for the subsequent year in September. So if he were in a position of needing to let workers go as a matter of course, you would have expected him to do so within the last couple months, not immediately after the election.

Most likely, the public way in which Murray has politicized the firings is to try and blame Obama for the company's dwindling profits and not his inability to keep up as the energy market moves towards natural gas.
So do I understand correctly that we agree it may have been a perfectly valid move for the company to cut costs by laying off employees to improve profitability in the face of declining demand, and the outrage in this thread is more directed towards them doing it after the election and the owner blaming Obama?
Looking at who he as and what he's done? No. Not a frakking chance.

He does business in the West Virginia coal fields. There are no "sound business reasons." It's "we do what we want to who we want, and we've got the politicians and courts in our pockets."

These are the people who admit to the media they're buying lawmakers and judges, and dare anyone to try and stop them.
Be that as it may, I'd expect them to hardly be above market concerns. The U.S. Energy Information Administration forecast I quoted above does indicate an expected reduction in coal production in 2012. Wouldn't that mean expected personnel layoffs in any industry, and in any country?
 
So do I understand correctly that we agree it may have been a perfectly valid move for the company to cut costs by laying off employees to improve profitability in the face of declining demand, and the outrage in this thread is more directed towards them doing it after the election and the owner blaming Obama?


Be that as it may, I'd expect them to hardly be above market concerns. The U.S. Energy Information Administration forecast I quoted above does indicate an expected reduction in coal production in 2012. Wouldn't that mean expected personnel layoffs in any industry, and in any country?
The coal industry is in denial. They do not want to admit both demand and reserves are down, so they make up fairy stories like the "War on Coal", where it's Obama and the EPA want to destroy a "way of life". Then they manage to get the miners to fall for this bullshit narrative and spread the tale to their family and friends.

This is an industry that cares about nothing else except moving coal? Regulations that keep miners alive? Ignored in writing. The Upper Big Branch disaster was not an anomaly. It was not a fluke. It was the result of standing Massey Energy policy. Regulations that get in the way of moving coal were to be ignored.
 
The coal industry is in denial. They do not want to admit both demand and reserves are down, so they make up fairy stories like the "War on Coal", where it's Obama and the EPA want to destroy a "way of life". Then they manage to get the miners to fall for this bullshit narrative and spread the tale to their family and friends.

This is an industry that cares about nothing else except moving coal? Regulations that keep miners alive? Ignored in writing. The Upper Big Branch disaster was not an anomaly. It was not a fluke. It was the result of standing Massey Energy policy. Regulations that get in the way of moving coal were to be ignored.
Could well be, I'm not familiar with the coal mining industry or how it it practised in West Virginia. But I'm not sure the issues you mention feature all that greatly in the present case of personnel reductions. Demand is down and not expected to go up in the short term, so reducing capacity might, in my understanding, be a valid response from the company. Why this particular company got to where it is now and how distasteful their practices are can be discussed separately, but, ignoring rhetoric and blaming of others for mistakes which may well have been their own, the company itself is still subject to regular business logic.
 
Are you guys sure there aren't sound business reasons behind these layoffs?

I had a look at the US coal consumption statistics. It seems domestic demand is down, and growth in exports doesn't seem to be picking up the slack. Producers might be under market pressure to readjust capacity accordingly, and this usually means people get the boot. I don't know about any taxes, but they would presumably add to costs and thereby exacerbate the problem for producers.



http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/coal.cfm

Could well be, I'm not familiar with the coal mining industry or how it it practised in West Virginia. But I'm not sure the issues you mention feature all that greatly in the present case of personnel reductions. Demand is down and not expected to go up in the short term, so reducing capacity might, in my understanding, be a valid response from the company. Why this particular company got to where it is now and how distasteful their practices are can be discussed separately, but, ignoring rhetoric and blaming of others for mistakes which may well have been their own, the company itself is still subject to regular business logic.

I think you answered it though. He's blaming Obama for lowering demand in coal.
 
Are you guys sure there aren't sound business reasons behind these layoffs?
Of course there are, and he would have fired those people anyway. If anything he just waited until the election was over so he can blame it on Obama. That's kinda the whole point of why this is BS.
 
Of course there are, and he would have fired those people anyway. If anything he just waited until the election was over so he can blame it on Obama. That's kinda the whole point of why this is BS.

Especially the coal industry. And to be honest, rightfully so. We really need to invest more into future energy sources and shy away from fossil fuels. That's the better answer than the GOP's "let's tap it all" solution.
 
Of course there are, and he would have fired those people anyway. If anything he just waited until the election was over so he can blame it on Obama. That's kinda the whole point of why this is BS.
Yes, so we have a situation where a coal producer is laying people off due to decreased demand, and blaming government policies for it. Which may have had some influence, truth be told; my understanding is that the US government is supporting alternative energy sources, which would presumably negatively impact prospects for coal.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see all that much to get worked up over this.
Especially the coal industry. And to be honest, rightfully so. We really need to invest more into future energy sources and shy away from fossil fuels. That's the better answer than the GOP's "let's tap it all" solution.
Personally I favor going nuclear. Clean, dependable, relatively affordable, and can be built to produce big numbers.
 
It is just you. This is the equivalent of kicking the dog because you had a bad day at work.
Well, I just don't see it that way. If it has been established that there may be sound business reasons why to fire those people, then they will lose their jobs anyway and that's that. What difference does it really make if the company blames government policy for the financial situation?
 
Well, I just don't see it that way. If it has been established that there may be sound business reasons why to fire those people, then they will lose their jobs anyway and that's that. What difference does it really make if the company blames government policy for the financial situation?
Honesty? The way the statement is made matters.
 
Especially when it's the same guy who forced his employees to take unpaid leave to attend a pro-Romney rally, told them via company memo that he'd be forced to cut jobs if Obama was re-elected, and allegedly forced his employees to donate 1% of their pre-tax revenue to a PAC he created.
 
Well, I just don't see it that way. If it has been established that there may be sound business reasons why to fire those people, then they will lose their jobs anyway and that's that. What difference does it really make if the company blames government policy for the financial situation?
Well, you clearly have a certain narrative you want to put forth and you'll view this any way you can to make it work. So bully for you, then.
 
When are republicans going to realize that corpratism is not capitalism. A free market can not flourish without some form of regulation to make it a level playing field for the forces of supply and demand to work. There's a reason there are anti-trust laws.
 
When are republicans going to realize that corpratism is not capitalism. A free market can not flourish without some form of regulation to make it a level playing field for the forces of supply and demand to work. There's a reason there are anti-trust laws.
It's not just Republicans. The "Democrats" (more DiNOs than real Democrats) have run WV since the beginning of time, and have been completely in thrall to the Friends of Coal the entire time.

If coal is removed from it's place of power here by anything but force of arms, it will be a complete shock to me.
 
Especially the coal industry. And to be honest, rightfully so. We really need to invest more into future energy sources and shy away from fossil fuels. That's the better answer than the GOP's "let's tap it all" solution.
I actually heard a guy on POTUS (a Sirus XM station) say "Who put the fossil fuels in the ground and why would they do that if we weren't meant to use them".
 
You don't see why people might get annoyed by a corporation lying for political gain?
As I've understood, the company line is that government policies have worsened the case for coal to a substantial degree, and since there is no prospect for those policies to be overturned under a second Obama term, they have no choice but to announce those layoffs. This may be an exaggerated and biased account that does not give the whole picture, but it may actually be true to an extent when seen from a certain point of view. So I'm not sure the company is factually lying, more like they are portraying events in a light which they think is the best for them.

Now, I can see how this might irk people off. Some because they've done their research and have solid arguments pointing to the conclusion that the company story is a gross misrepresentation, and others because the story conflicts with their own preconceived notions of rapacious and soulless corporations exploiting the little guy and hijacking the political process.

As I see it, the fact of the matter is that about 160 people lost their jobs, and I think a case has been made that the layoffs may have been in keeping with perfectly regular business procedures. Concentrating on who said what and whose version of the events is more correct may be interesting from a 'truth commission' point of view, but if the layoffs were genuine, then it may not amount to much more than an evaluation of the accuracy of the used rhetoric. Could be somebody's cup of tea, but I kind of take it for granted that every side of the matter with an interest at stake is polishing their own shield and pushing their own agenda.
Honesty? The way the statement is made matters.
Yes, it matters at least from a PR point of view. On the whole, honesty seems to me a rather kantian notion, a bit too absolute and universal to have extensive utility in a business or political environment, outside of what is required by law and/or suggested by prevailing practices.

Using that as a guideline, I assume the company followed the law in these layoffs, and, if there were legitimate business realities at play, then that would satisfy the 'prevailing practices' part as well. What is left is the company's account of what led to these business realities forcing the layoffs, which may be subject to differing points of view.
Especially when it's the same guy who (a) forced his employees to take unpaid leave to attend a pro-Romney rally, (b) told them via company memo that he'd be forced to cut jobs if Obama was re-elected, and (c) allegedly forced his employees to donate 1% of their pre-tax revenue to a PAC he created.
Okay, I'll take all of those to be correct, and label them a, b, and c as indicated in the quote.

a) Sounds to me like coal isn't selling the way it used to. Otherwise, letting your whole staff essentially have extra time off instead of, well, working, doesn't seem like a smart move. Telling them what to do while unpaid does seem like a dickish move, though. Do US labor laws permit an employer to send employees on leave without pay for a while instead firing them in case of a temporary reduction in business (finnish labor laws do)? The company or a part of it might have basically closed down for a day, in preference to sending a handful of people home for weeks of unpaid leave (or firing them). Doesn't change the fact that telling unpaid people what to do is a dickish move, though.
b) That might be in keeping with the company story of the reason behind the business realities forcing the layoffs. Did the memo say "if Obama is re-elected", or did it say something like "if the energy policies of the current administration continue" or some such? In any case, I think it is necessary to give employees advance notice before you fire them, so some sort of a memo would probably have been needed anyway.
c) If that affected their take-home pay without their consent, then that is crossing a few lines. If it was one of those tax-deductible loophole kind of things that some company accounting wizard noticed and worked their magic to shift a few figures around, then it is dubious and, particularly if done without the knowledge and consent of the employees, might be illegal. But not necessarily something that directly affected the pay of the workers.
Well, you clearly have a certain narrative you want to put forth and you'll view this any way you can to make it work. So bully for you, then.
Not really. I'm just of a mind to explore alternative explanations to the narrative I'm being fed.
The prayer basically saying Obama is of the devil didn't help either...
I view that as propaganda. Might resonate with more religious communities, and thereby bring added weight to bear on public representatives.
When are republicans going to realize that corpratism is not capitalism. A free market can not flourish without some form of regulation to make it a level playing field for the forces of supply and demand to work. There's a reason there are anti-trust laws.
Wouldn't an ideal efficient free market be devoid of government interference in pricing, allowing supply and demand to decide the outcome? In such a case with the absence of government subsidies and disincentives, coal might actually be a very competitive form of energy production.
It's not just Republicans. The "Democrats" (more DiNOs than real Democrats) have run WV since the beginning of time, and have been completely in thrall to the Friends of Coal the entire time.

If coal is removed from it's place of power here by anything but force of arms, it will be a complete shock to me.
Yeah, it's probable that the coal and related industries employ a lot of people there, and further jobs in the service sector live off of that. If coal were removed, then the effects might be devastating to local economies. Which is why I'd expect many people there to fight for coal tooth-and-nail, as the livelyhoods of very many probably depend on it.

But damned if I actually know anything about local economies over there.
I actually heard a guy on POTUS (a Sirus XM station) say "Who put the fossil fuels in the ground and why would they do that if we weren't meant to use them".
I feel that it is a bit quaint to ascribe some higher meaning for their existance. That being said, people use what they can to achieve what they feel they need. And coal apparently does help in that, given it's large market share in energy production and the self-sufficiency of domestic coal reserves in the US.
 
Yes, it matters at least from a PR point of view. On the whole, honesty seems to me a rather kantian notion, a bit too absolute and universal to have extensive utility in a business or political environment, outside of what is required by law and/or suggested by prevailing practices.

Using that as a guideline, I assume the company followed the law in these layoffs, and, if there were legitimate business realities at play, then that would satisfy the 'prevailing practices' part as well. What is left is the company's account of what led to these business realities forcing the layoffs, which may be subject to differing points of view.https://www.halforums.com/members/specialko.54/
https://www.halforums.com/members/specialko.54/

The implications reach beyond the business, though. They affect politics (quite intentionally) as well.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Get used to it chums, another 4 years (at least) of businesses large and small battening down the hatches. Papa John's and Applebees have said they don't see themselves expanding or hiring for now. Also, you didn't need people to keep investing in the stock market anyway, did you?

But hey, enjoy those drone strikes
 
Wouldn't an ideal efficient free market be devoid of government interference in pricing, allowing supply and demand to decide the outcome? In such a case with the absence of government subsidies and disincentives, coal might actually be a very competitive form of energy production.
Honestly, if you can't see where a completely unfettered free market would be manipulated via monopolies and price fixing, I'm not really sure where to go with this.
 
As I've understood, the company line is that government policies have worsened the case for coal to a substantial degree, and since there is no prospect for those policies to be overturned under a second Obama term, they have no choice but to announce those layoffs. This may be an exaggerated and biased account that does not give the whole picture, but it may actually be true to an extent when seen from a certain point of view. So I'm not sure the company is factually lying, more like they are portraying events in a light which they think is the best for them.

Now, I can see how this might irk people off. Some because they've done their research and have solid arguments pointing to the conclusion that the company story is a gross misrepresentation, and others because the story conflicts with their own preconceived notions of rapacious and soulless corporations exploiting the little guy and hijacking the political process.

As I see it, the fact of the matter is that about 160 people lost their jobs, and I think a case has been made that the layoffs may have been in keeping with perfectly regular business procedures. Concentrating on who said what and whose version of the events is more correct may be interesting from a 'truth commission' point of view, but if the layoffs were genuine, then it may not amount to much more than an evaluation of the accuracy of the used rhetoric. Could be somebody's cup of tea, but I kind of take it for granted that every side of the matter with an interest at stake is polishing their own shield and pushing their own agenda.

Government policies haven't worsened the case for coal (lately, anyway). Coal is hurting thanks to an overabundance of cheap natural gas. There is proposed legislation regarding fly ash, but nothing regarding it has been passed into law.
 
Government policies haven't worsened the case for coal (lately, anyway). Coal is hurting thanks to an overabundance of cheap natural gas. There is proposed legislation regarding fly ash, but nothing regarding it has been passed into law.
But hey, why deal logically with market realities when you can just blame the gub'mint, and stampede the Fox-watching masses into demanding what you want for you? Doesn't matter if it destroys the landscape, poisons the water, or kills your children. That's all the gub'mint's fault for pushing the Friends of Coal into a corner.
 
The implications reach beyond the business, though. They affect politics (quite intentionally) as well.
Agreed. But political decision making does not happen in a vacuum. Most people are employed in the private sector, so reactions there to public policies are relevant in any political discussion with implications on economic and labor policies. How much weight is given to proclamations from the private sector depends on the circumstances. Too much is 'bad' from a social point of view, and too little is 'bad' from an economical point of view.

Quite what is the right amount is something I think you, I, and people in general might differ on. My personal approach is rather econ-friendly, in the sense that you need to make a cake before you can start to divide it.
But hey, enjoy those drone strikes
Enjoy them for as long as you can, as Boeing announced 30% management layoffs in it's defence division the day after the election.
Honestly, if you can't see where a completely unfettered free market would be manipulated via monopolies and price fixing, I'm not really sure where to go with this.
I am more referring to government subsidies for alternative energy production and reserch, pending EPA legislation hampering the use of coal, and the Renewable Portfolio Standard.
Government policies haven't worsened the case for coal (lately, anyway). Coal is hurting thanks to an overabundance of cheap natural gas. There is proposed legislation regarding fly ash, but nothing regarding it has been passed into law.
I was under the impression that about 30% of the retirements in coal energy generation capacity are estimated to be due to pending EPA legislation. Here is the study.

But I think we can all agree that the reduction in demand for coal is an interplay of several different factors, the least of which is not the overall economic situation. So the company story is not the complete picture.
 
Looks like I made a mistake: that pdf points out that there were several regulations instituted by the EPA (one of which replaces a less stringent measure). However, a quick read says that 5% of generation capacity is projected to be retired by 2016 due to legislation: 16 GW worth, with the other plants being retired regardless of legislation. But my eyes started glazing over about halfway through, and I might have missed something.
 
I read the same. 56 GW worth of coal fired capacity is to be retired by 2016, and 16 GW of it is estimated to be due to EPA regulations, making for about 30%.
 
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