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I have to agree, I think the "racist card" is a cheap way to deflect real criticism by putting your opponent on the defensive without having any real substance to the argument (not saying your arguments don't have substance DA, this is just a general comment). And yes, this is nothing new. The 'vitriol' coming out of these protesters is seems fairly benign compared to the vitriol directed at Fuhrer Commissar Grand Servant of Khorne (Blood for the Blood God!) Bush II. Same shit, different color. Welcome to American politics.
Well, if you would stop being so racist he wouldn't have to play it now would he? :humph:Covar said:
@boringmetaphor
Regarding "majority rules"?
The "majority" is not supposed to rule. We are a democratic republic, it's not supposed to be "Party 1 got 51% so they get to do whatever they want for X number of years". It feels like that sometimes, but that's why we have checks and balances.
B
BoringMetaphor
Whats supposed to happen to Party 2 and its supporters when they are not in power?Espy said:
re: DarkAudit Dont you think its even more dangerous to dismiss the republicans like that? Obviously they arent all racist. At some fundamental level aren't they all just upset that their voice is not being heard and the country is not going in the direction they want it to? I mean, you can demean what direction they think is right, but ultimately they are simply angry at the fact that their voices arent being heard or heeded.
Which is what I am trying to talk about, the contradiction between strong american democracy versus strong american individualism. It just seems like it causes a lot of problems, particularly right now when you the Democrats controlling everything. It's not just 51%, its senate, congress and presidency, right? I am thinking my concept of american democracy might be off here though.
Soo.. doesnt really matter what each side thinks, let alone offering vast generalizations about them.
Just like those that opposed the Vietnam war attacked military recruiting offices, those that oppose Roe v Wade (abortion) attack abortion clinics and doctors, the most recent being a murder 10 weeks ago.BoringMetaphor said:
But keep in mind that the violence of the protest closely matches the perceived threat. People were dying in Vietnam, so the protesters believed that causing violence was reasonable.
While there are a few unreasonable people out there doing crazy things, most people honestly aren't going to get worked up enough about economic reform to start bombing banks.
-Adam
I dunno about before then, BM, but IMHO the roots of America's modern tyranny of the political majority problem started around the Vietnam War leading into Nixon's practical codification of the Culture War to gain political support. I'm skeptical that he ever thought of it as anything more than political rhetoric designed to hold on to key constituencies for the next couple of decades, but it kind of took on a life of its own as each side of it painted the other side in increasingly extremist colors.
By now, certainly, its taken on such an extreme that when one political party is in power, it acts like a total asshat to the other party, pushing its agendas as hard as possible without the slightest real intent of working with the other aside unless they bow to their worldview. The weaker party says, "God, these guys are total asshats" and refuses to work with them. On the contrary, they go out and denounce the party is power as The Worst Thing Ever, and essentially refuse to get involved in any kind of process which could make the power party's proposals any better.
Then, the political spectrum inevitably shifts, and then the new power party says, "Yay! All our worldviews are justified!" and then go on to be total asshats. The weaker party says, "God these guys are total asshats" and so on ad infinitum.
This process has absolutely nothing to do with the actual direction the country is going, whether the White House is right or wrong, or whether an idea is good or bad.
By now, certainly, its taken on such an extreme that when one political party is in power, it acts like a total asshat to the other party, pushing its agendas as hard as possible without the slightest real intent of working with the other aside unless they bow to their worldview. The weaker party says, "God, these guys are total asshats" and refuses to work with them. On the contrary, they go out and denounce the party is power as The Worst Thing Ever, and essentially refuse to get involved in any kind of process which could make the power party's proposals any better.
Then, the political spectrum inevitably shifts, and then the new power party says, "Yay! All our worldviews are justified!" and then go on to be total asshats. The weaker party says, "God these guys are total asshats" and so on ad infinitum.
This process has absolutely nothing to do with the actual direction the country is going, whether the White House is right or wrong, or whether an idea is good or bad.
They were more than willing to beat up and threaten economists (who directly caused) and rich people who benefited from the old policies though. It was pretty scary to be making more than 100k a year there for awhile.stienman said:
Yelling over people who disagree with you at a town hall isn't protesting. It's being rude. It's preventing them from expressing their ideas and thoughts. Those people are encouraged and invited, no matter who they are, to come to the forum and express their ideas, not intimidate and shout down those who disagree.Espy said:
Bringing signs calling Obama a nazi or a new Hitler isn't protest. It's meant to instill fear, prevent discussion.
Bringing a gun to a presidential rally with a sign that says "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." isn't an act of protest, but of terrorism. Period.
When Democrats did it years ago at Republican rallies, it was wrong. It's still wrong.
W
WolfOfOdin
Well, the problem is that although each side has rather nice, personable individuals that are willing to compromise and come together to make an issue work. I'm one of them, and my best friend is too. I'm almost to the left of Lenin on most issues and he's a Goldwater conservative thru and thru.
The problem isn't that kind of person though, because they're quiet and don't cause enough of a ruckus to get ratings. The problem is that each party has a hard base of 'true believers' who are absolutely impossible to have a reasonable debate with. Take Gas and ramp his views up to the point where it seems like gross parody, and that's they operate at all the time. Liberal or conservative, the true believer sees anything that isn't in lock-step with his or her worldview as either laughable or a vile and evil threat that needs to be eliminated.
As that level of view gains more and more people. it becomes harder and harder to have any kind of discussion that doesn't result in two groups trying their best to verbally eviscerate each other. Worse still, it's become common to paint anyone who's willing to compromise and deal with their opposition in a fair way as 'weak' and 'lacking conviction in his or her ideals'.
I'm very sorry, but compromise is not something that makes you weak in politics, it's the damned nature of the beast.
As for Health Care?
Right now, in terms of 'Government healthcare for all" the Dems want a Yacht and the Republicans want a row boat. Hopefully they both meet somewhere around speed-boat or schooner so people can get what they need without becoming absolutely dependant.
The problem isn't that kind of person though, because they're quiet and don't cause enough of a ruckus to get ratings. The problem is that each party has a hard base of 'true believers' who are absolutely impossible to have a reasonable debate with. Take Gas and ramp his views up to the point where it seems like gross parody, and that's they operate at all the time. Liberal or conservative, the true believer sees anything that isn't in lock-step with his or her worldview as either laughable or a vile and evil threat that needs to be eliminated.
As that level of view gains more and more people. it becomes harder and harder to have any kind of discussion that doesn't result in two groups trying their best to verbally eviscerate each other. Worse still, it's become common to paint anyone who's willing to compromise and deal with their opposition in a fair way as 'weak' and 'lacking conviction in his or her ideals'.
I'm very sorry, but compromise is not something that makes you weak in politics, it's the damned nature of the beast.
As for Health Care?
Right now, in terms of 'Government healthcare for all" the Dems want a Yacht and the Republicans want a row boat. Hopefully they both meet somewhere around speed-boat or schooner so people can get what they need without becoming absolutely dependant.
I think you have a very narrow view of what protesting is Krisken.
I'm not saying it's "good" protesting but it is protesting.
Seriously though, why are people acting like someone kicked them in the junk here?
We had 8 years of poo like this:
And things like the code pink peace lovers blocking the Marine Recruiting station in Berkeley: http://tinyurl.com/r4typ7
THIS is the current state of political discourse. It's convenient that everyone wants to get all huffy about it now but I'm sorry if after 8 years + of this I find people's outrage to be a little late to the game and rather convenient.
I'm not saying it's "good" protesting but it is protesting.
Seriously though, why are people acting like someone kicked them in the junk here?
We had 8 years of poo like this:
And things like the code pink peace lovers blocking the Marine Recruiting station in Berkeley: http://tinyurl.com/r4typ7
THIS is the current state of political discourse. It's convenient that everyone wants to get all huffy about it now but I'm sorry if after 8 years + of this I find people's outrage to be a little late to the game and rather convenient.
You did. My last comment was a general statement, not necessarily at you. My point to you was that protesting isn't a love in. It's a wide variety of things, including shouting down people. Like I said, it's not "good" protesting, or "effective" but it is protesting.Krisken said:
My general point is that it's really cute how upset people (thats not just forumites) are getting over this, as if it's something new.
B
BoringMetaphor
This is what I'm getting at.. Doesnt this seem like a problem? Interesting to know its roots from the Nixon era.TeKeo said:
Espy: Im not trying to lay blame on either side here, as you note both sides had the same reaction - Im honestly asking how this came about and how anyone expects this to help government. You have these two juxtaposed ideals, which in their extremes seem to contradict each other. Sure, everyone can vote, but that means they have to accept the outcome of their vote. But given the rise of the individual in the last say, 20 years, it seems less and less that the majority is willing to accept contested ideas.
What path is being followed here? Where does this lead?
This was what I was trying to point out on page 2.Espy said:
Where were all the news broadcasts and folks condemning this type of activity during the previous administration? Again, it's a bit hypocritical.
I can't speak for other conservatives on this board, but I can speak for the majority of conservatives that I know around here. We feel cheated. Not because Obama won, but b/c Bush lied. He sold himself as a conservative, but did nothing that I can think of that was conservative. Being a fiscal conservative means you cut government and spend less, not go on a coke-induced spree. After all of his shit who do we get as candidates? Palin and McCain.
So, now, the conservatives feel like they have no voice. Zero. No one is representing them. The republicans have left them. The blue dogs have left them. The libertarians and independents have no power. It's a lame position to be in.
That's why I am bitter and angry. I don't know if the asshatery lately is due to this same sentiment. I don't condone violence, but disrupting a town hall meeting and telling a senator or a congressman to stick it is fine with me.
Maybe it's not noticed and covered in the news because Democrat leaders don't encourage Code Pink types? Not only that, but those people were removed when they disrupted those events. And rightly so.drawn_inward said:This was what I was trying to point out on page 2.Espy said:
Where were all the news broadcasts and folks condemning this type of activity during the previous administration? Again, it's a bit hypocritical.
I can't speak for other conservatives on this board, but I can speak for the majority of conservatives that I know around here. We feel cheated. Not because Obama won, but b/c Bush lied. He sold himself as a conservative, but did nothing that I can think of that was conservative. Being a fiscal conservative means you cut government and spend less, not go on a coke-induced spree. After all of his shit who do we get as candidates? Palin and McCain.
So, now, the conservatives feel like they have no voice. Zero. No one is representing them. The republicans have left them. The blue dogs have left them. The libertarians and independents have no power. It's a lame position to be in.
That's why I am bitter and angry. I don't know if the asshatery lately is due to this same sentiment. I don't condone violence, but disrupting a town hall meeting and telling a senator or a congressman to stick it is fine with me.
L
Le Quack
Say what you want about Ghandi and his peaceful protests in India. What many people don't realize is that he tried and failed to do the same thing in South America for 18 years. He gave it his best, but in the presence of a racist regime, his tactics just didn't work.stienman said:
Nelson Mandela is a much better candidate to watch how to successfully change a nation for the better.
Peaceful protest for 15 years, then violence, then back to peaceful negotiations and forgiveness. When the other side meets your peaceful demostations with violence, that is the time for violence.
Oh fuck you Espy. Just FUCK YOU.Espy said:I think you have a very narrow view of what protesting is Krisken.
I'm not saying it's \"good\" protesting but it is protesting.
Seriously though, why are people acting like someone kicked them in the junk here?
We had 8 years of poo like this:
And things like the code pink peace lovers blocking the Marine Recruiting station in Berkeley: http://tinyurl.com/r4typ7
THIS is the current state of political discourse. It's convenient that everyone wants to get all huffy about it now but I'm sorry if after 8 years + of this I find people's outrage to be a little late to the game and rather convenient.
You want to know why we had that? Because we got lied into an unnecessary war to satisfy the ego of Captain Fucking Texas, and all we got was over 5000 of our best and brightest killed for nothing. NOTHING.
Never mind that there's not one person in this country with the balls to bring those responsible up on charges, but that's another thread.
(and in case you failed to notice, that first pic isn't even in the US)
GasBandit
Staff member
Ladies and gentlemen - I give you, the enlightened Progressive.DarkAudit said:
Ah, we see. It's ok what they did because it was in the name of YOUR supported political beliefs. After all, when you're the super duper good guys, the ends always justify the means, and your shining idealism can never be tarnished by the reprehensibility of your methods.
Fair enough, here's some that were in the US. (a good amount of NSFW in that link)
Ed Zachary!drawn_inward said:
The tenets of a conservative policy can be summed up in one sentence; ''That which governs least, governs best.'' The government has no place expanding at all, evar, much less in the middle of a fiscal meltdown.
I'm all for balkanization myself. FLORIDA FTW ! ! !
EDIT: I should explain better. See, the new guy (Your duly elected savior) has done nothing but expand government and spend like crazy since day one. You know, JUST LIKE BUSH. And at some point, the nation will reach a breaking point. We just won't allow the penis to slide into our rectal cavities for much longer before we cry out in unison ''Ouch! That hurts!''
So it isn't ALL about the health care thing, it is more about shit coming to a head, also about people who are just so unbelievably stupid that they are just now seeing the problems with [strike:cajpfd2l]socialism[/strike:cajpfd2l]-- oops, I mean Obamacare, and are starting to get pissed,too. My aunt and my sister both voted for him, now they are ashamed to admit it. It gets better: They both voted for ol' Buttcrack because they wanted ''change'' and ''hope.''
Also, Dark Audit, you bastion of clear thinking, you, I have seen animated gifs of Bush being sodomized by Cheney, people wearing shirts with Bush being hanged etc etc and far worse. Go tilt at windmills somewhere else.
Alright. I've ignored you until now since you just troll around here. But now you want to make it personal?DarkAudit said:
For the record then, since you didn't bother to read me and Krisken's discussion:
I made the point that protests have been incendiary for quite some time.
That was my point. I never said jack shit about Bush or the war or anything, just posted a few pics to prove that the level of discourse has been intense for some time. It was a nice little CALM discussion
It had nothing to do with your little hateful political grudge bullshit.
You got anything else there? You obviously paid ZERO attention to anything I wrote and just inserted your stupid little "I HATE ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH ME" bullshit and I'm not going to stand for it.
Why don't you go outside for awhile and cool the smurf down. Go smells some flowers and have a beer.
Except the stupid things those people are saying definitely do not represent my feelings either. Yes, my solitary view is not represented in the government (few will find that theirs is!!) but I am not going to applaud idiots (on the right or the left) for yelling idiotic things just so I feel like they are sticking it to the man.drawn_inward said:
L
Le Quack
Yeah GasBandit, I think you lumped liberals together with Jew haters on that devil Bush one.
The point to all those pics isn't about republican or democrats are "insert whatever you want".
The point is that THAT is the level of political protest these days. It's been going on for ages. Look at the anti-war folks, the anti-abortion folks, etc.
The protesting at the townhalls is nothing new nor any more or less outrageous despite what the nightly news would like you to think.
The point is that THAT is the level of political protest these days. It's been going on for ages. Look at the anti-war folks, the anti-abortion folks, etc.
The protesting at the townhalls is nothing new nor any more or less outrageous despite what the nightly news would like you to think.
No, the point is what is presented as acceptable behavior by those who are supposed to be leading those groups.Espy said:
People do stupid shit, no matter which of these two groups we are talking about. The leadership, openly anyways, take very different stances when discussing the fringe elements of their groups.
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