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Bystander Effect much?

Oct 27, 2009#1

Denbrought

Almost, if not entirely, nuke-humanity worthy situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html

I've never been in a situation where the Bystander Effect ("the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help") applied, so I don't know if I'd react the same... I'd like to think not.

What the hell.

Oct 27, 2009#2

Krisken

:mad2:

Oct 27, 2009#3

SeraRelm

If I even thought something like that was going on, the cops would have been called faster than you can say "castrate".

Were I a physically violent person, I'd have swung a fucking brick... Call me internet tough if you want, but I stand by that.

Oct 27, 2009#4

North_Ranger

Hindsight and righteous anger have a 20/20 vision, unfortunately.

I don't know if I could've intervened - I'm not a violent person by far - but I would have at least stepped aside and called the cops.

Oct 27, 2009#5

doomdragon6

This sounds less like the bystander effect than it does people were just watching.

It sounds like everyone who watched were highschool guys who possibly would have wanted to just watch-- not random people that stumbled across it. Had someone just wandered by they probably would have been more likely to do something.

Oct 27, 2009#6

Bowielee

Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

Oct 27, 2009#7

elph

Bowielee said:
Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

and participate.

I think it's more mob mentality really. With people coming out to watch/participate, if only 1 person would've stood up and tried to stop, it's likely that person would have been added to the assault.

It's sick, but if *you* were the only one to stand up against a mob of 5 - 10+ (I'm just giving numbers here, I didn't notice it give any specific numbers to go by), I'm sure you'd be hesitant to act. I'd love to think that I'd have the guts to act to stop what's going on, maybe not directly, but indirectly. I would've contacted the cops/authorities as soon as I heard something I'm sure. Maybe go so far as to try to document if there was nothing I could do directly. I would hate to think I would just stand there and watch, or (worse) walk away and do nothing.

Oct 27, 2009#8

Biardo

You never know what you'll do in that kind of situations, I like to think I would intervene but I'm not sure.

I did come across a group one day that was kicking someone who they had beaten up and I managed to get them to stop and get the guy away from there, then I started talking to him and suddenly understood why they felt the need to beat him up, most ungrateful son of a bitch I ever met, still doesn't give them the right though and beating up 1 guy with a group is really lame.

Oct 27, 2009#9

Chazwozel

elph;284093][quote=Bowielee said:
Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

and participate.

I think it's more mob mentality really. With people coming out to watch/participate, if only 1 person would've stood up and tried to stop, it's likely that person would have been added to the assault.

It's sick, but if *you* were the only one to stand up against a mob of 5 - 10+ (I'm just giving numbers here, I didn't notice it give any specific numbers to go by), I'm sure you'd be hesitant to act. I'd love to think that I'd have the guts to act to stop what's going on, maybe not directly, but indirectly. I would've contacted the cops/authorities as soon as I heard something I'm sure. Maybe go so far as to try to document if there was nothing I could do directly. I would hate to think I would just stand there and watch, or (worse) walk away and do nothing.[/QUOTE]

Everyone has a cell phone these days. I'd call 911 as soon as I stumbled upon this. I know it's hard to think of solutions to something like this going on, but it was in the highschool homecoming dance parking lot. My first thought, as I was reading the article, was to get behind the wheel of my car and high beam the mob. Threaten to run them over.

Oct 27, 2009#10

The Lovely Boehner

Yeah, calling 911 is not a big deal. I doubt anyone's gonna turn on you/beat you if you pull out a cell phone.

Oct 27, 2009#11

Shannow

This should be a poll!

Oct 27, 2009#12

North_Ranger

Impure Vyxen said:
RAGE!

/puke

*fears*

/hate

*comfort hug*

Oct 27, 2009#13

Cajungal

Disgusting. Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting.

And it reminds me of a speech I had to memorize in high school. It was about mob mentality, and one example was a guy who simulated intercourse with a woman that his friends had raped rather than go and get help.

Disgusting.

Oct 27, 2009#14

Bubble181

OK, I'm going to play the Devil's advocate side here.
It's easy enough, when presented like this, to say you'd intervene immediately, call the cops, whatnot. But you don't know everything at the time it happens.

Say you're a 17 year old guy. Some friend runs up, and tells you "yo, there's two guys banging a hot chick in the parking lot! She's drunk as fuck man, she'll do anything!"; is your first reaction to call the cops? Consider that you're probably half-drunk, yourself. Yes, it's wrong, and you might even realise at the time, but the "whoa dude, I have to go see!" factor's there. You might not even realise, at that time, that anything really wrong (besides a guy taking advantage of a drunk chick / drunk slut givin' it all up, choose as you wish). You might not see it as rape until after the facts; or after having seen what's going on, etc.
Words like "gang raped" may make it seem like she was being horribly violently fighting back but being raped by a dozen guys regardless, but such may not have been the case.

Once again, I must say that I personally obviously hope I'd have called the cops, and knowing my reactions in the past to similar things; I probably would've. Still.

Oct 27, 2009#15

Espy

There is no emoticon to express my disgust. Who the hell is breeding these kids?

Oct 27, 2009#16

Shegokigo

Video will be up on 4chan by the end of the week I'm sure.

Oct 27, 2009#17

Dave

If she was drugged she may not have looked like she was fighting back at first glance. But she was sent to the hospital with critical injuries, which suggests that at second glance it should have been obvious there was something going on.

No reason to stay and not call 911.

Oct 27, 2009#18

Shegokigo

Impure Vyxen;284183][quote=Shegokigo said:
Video will be up on 4chan by the end of the week I'm sure.

Good. Then they can be identified and persecuted.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much, it's funny how much good 4chan has done by trying to be "evil".

Oct 27, 2009#19

Shannow

yeah, this part of the story kinda goes against the "Some friend runs up, and tells you "yo, there's two guys banging a hot chick in the parking lot! She's drunk as fuck man, she'll do anything!" argument:

The victim was found unconscious and "brutally assaulted" under a bench shortly before midnight Saturday,

Oct 27, 2009#20

Shegokigo

No it doesn't, that just means by the end of the night that's where she ended up after people got bored of watching/participating and left her.

Oct 27, 2009#21

Shannow

I was going with the brutally assaulted part, but meh.

Oct 27, 2009#22

Shegokigo

Well I'm sure that someone started getting a few Donkey Punches™ in before they left.

Oct 27, 2009#23

Shannow

Time to bring in the horrible humor, I see.

Well then, where is the poll, with the "join in" option?

Oct 27, 2009#24

Shegokigo

Humor? I was being serious. They probably beat her bloody after most of the bystanders left.

Oct 27, 2009#25

Chippy

Bubble181 said:
Words like "gang raped" may make it seem like she was being horribly violently fighting back but being raped by a dozen guys regardless, but such may not have been the case.

Edit: Better gif idea for this. Your post is the hotdog.

Oct 27, 2009#26

Bowielee

I hate to point this out to everyone, but the bystander effect is a psychologically recognized phenomenon. You can say you'd do this or that in a situation, but odds are, you probabaly wouldn't.

I know it hurts your fragile ego to believe that you could be influenced by mob or group mentality, but it does happen.

In many instances, it's the fact that everyone in the crowd assumes that someone else is already doing something about it, or will do something about it.

TLDNR version: You can never know how you will react in a situation until you're actually put into that situation, regarless of what you THINK you would do.

Oct 27, 2009#27

chakz

Chippy;284242][quote=Bubble181 said:
Words like "gang raped" may make it seem like she was being horribly violently fighting back but being raped by a dozen guys regardless, but such may not have been the case.

Edit: Better gif idea for this. Your post is the hotdog.

[/QUOTE]

Actually. The toxicology report coming back, she could have been drugged, and given the average male high schoolers opinions on sex, I can see this as a more likly scenario, or at least I'd like to hope that it was a bunch of idiots thinking that had hit the free porn jackpot rather than that there is a high school out there producing such monsters.

If this is not some case of extreme dumbassery and they were willingly and intentionally gang raping this girl, I'd be right next to chaz in that car. Possibly hanging out the window with a sledge hammer taken 'em down croquet style.

Oct 27, 2009#28

WolfOfOdin

.....Well. Reading this makes me want to kill a whole lotta folk.

Oct 27, 2009#29

LittleSin

WolfOfOdin said:
.....Well. Reading this makes me want to kill a whole lotta folk.

Would you get disbarred for that?

...or would is just make you DareDevil?

Oct 27, 2009#30

Chazwozel

Bowielee said:
I hate to point this out to everyone, but the bystander effect is a psychologically recognized phenomenon. You can say you'd do this or that in a situation, but odds are, you probabaly wouldn't.

I know it hurts your fragile ego to believe that you could be influenced by mob or group mentality, but it does happen.

In many instances, it's the fact that everyone in the crowd assumes that someone else is already doing something about it, or will do something about it.

TLDNR version: You can never know how you will react in a situation until you're actually put into that situation, regarless of what you THINK you would do.

Oct 27, 2009#31

WolfOfOdin

I will happily become daredevil if I can collapse rapist skulls

Oct 27, 2009#32

Shegokigo

I've been in a "Bystander Effect" situation before, but it wasn't inaction that kept me watching.

None the less, I never said I condoned this situation, just making a comment toward Bowielee's response.

Oct 27, 2009#33

Bowielee

Chazwozel;284256][quote=Bowielee said:
I hate to point this out to everyone, but the bystander effect is a psychologically recognized phenomenon. You can say you'd do this or that in a situation, but odds are, you probabaly wouldn't.

I know it hurts your fragile ego to believe that you could be influenced by mob or group mentality, but it does happen.

In many instances, it's the fact that everyone in the crowd assumes that someone else is already doing something about it, or will do something about it.

TLDNR version: You can never know how you will react in a situation until you're actually put into that situation, regarless of what you THINK you would do.

Been there done that, and brawled against three guys at once.

I've been part of the mob too before. All depends on the situation. In this situation, I would know to fucking call 911 regardless if it was a gangrape or gangbang.[/QUOTE]

And what if you saw someone on their cell phone and assumed that THEY were calling 911?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-bystander-effect.htm

I would like to think that I'd be the one to actually take action, but I really can't guarantee that I would be, and neither can any of you. My point really is that it's really easy as an outside observer to take the high ground and call everyone there reprehensible, but it's not quite so black and white as all that.

Oct 27, 2009#34

Shegokigo

^
See above

Oct 27, 2009#35

Espy

People can say whatever they want... If I saw a few dudes getting it on with some chick in a parking lot I would call 911 regardless of whether it was rape or not.

It's just common sense.

Oct 27, 2009#36

Hylian

And people wonder why I have such low hope for humanity

Oct 27, 2009#37

Shegokigo

I don't wonder, it's just that noone will let me do anything about it. :devil:

Oct 27, 2009#38

IronBrig4

Remember where this is: the BAY AREA. Those pussies don't even believe in violence for self-defense. They've gotta be open to all viewpoints, you see. You don't know what it's like to be a misunderstood San Franciscan teenager trying to find their way in the world. They might occasionally stumble but it's all part of growing up. Violence only perpetuates a cycle of acrimony. The typical progressive Bay Area citizen would rather be part of the solution rather than... part of the problem.

Seriously, it's times like these when you WANT the so-called neanderthals like myself. I remember an incident during my freshman year. I was walking back from the gym when I heard a couple huge black guys shout "Get your hands off of her, fucker!" and they went running to part of the gym grounds that is shaded by a wall and windbreak. Apparently some motherfucker had slammed a girl into the wall and was going to try some worse stuff. Every guy within earshot, including me, came running to the scene. I'm not sure what happened to him afterward because I went with two other guys to escort her to her car. Hopefully they beat him to a pulp.

So I already know I would have done something. Maybe I wouldn't have waded into that mob, but I would have at least called the cops.

Oct 27, 2009#39

Dave

Strangely enough, it only takes 1 person to speak up to break the spell in an incident like this. After that everyone starts to speak up, too.

Oct 27, 2009#40

Bowielee

Yes, but who is that person going to be? What happens in situations like this, everyone else tends to assume that someone else is going to do something about it.

Oct 27, 2009#41

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig4 said:
Remember where this is: the BAY AREA. Those pussies don't even believe in violence for self-defense. They've gotta be open to all viewpoints, you see. You don't know what it's like to be a misunderstood San Franciscan teenager trying to find their way in the world. They might occasionally stumble but it's all part of growing up. Violence only perpetuates a cycle of acrimony. The typical progressive Bay Area citizen would rather be part of the solution rather than... part of the problem.

lol

Oct 27, 2009#42

Iaculus

Funnily enough, I know everyone's saying that people wouldn't know what they'd do in that situation, but I know precisely what would happen for me. It's just not something I'd advise anyone else trying, because it is deeply stupid and irrational.

If I noticed it (not likely, given my eyesight and general head-in-the-cloudsness), I would wander over, take a look at what was going on, spend a few moments unconsciously psyching myself up, and then go berserk.

I would go for the eyes, throat or groin (probably the eyes) of the nearest person who looks like they're remotely involved, and I would likely seriously injure them and/or one other person before their friends beat me to a stinking pulp. Hopefully, someone else would eventually have the good sense to call the police.

I know this because it has happened before (minus me getting beaten up, simply because there were less people there) on more than one occasion in the past - though I must stress that I don't make a habit of it - and generally with far, far less provocation. The last time I did it, I ended up barred from the main student pub for a week, and they were only so lenient because the guy in question had been giving all the easy targets (of which I am most definitely one) a hard time there for quite a while by then.

So yeah, don't try that. Seriously.

Oct 27, 2009#43

Cajungal

My brother's one of the most gentle people I've ever met... until he sees a stronger person or a group of people ganging up on someone. Then, when he can't reason them out of something, he goes nuts.

At our old high school (during a game), some bigger guys, graduates, actually, were picking on a kid under the bleachers--pushing him around and kicking him and not letting him get away. My brother very calmly told them to stop. When they went for him, he dropped them all in a couple of minutes. He was 14. O.O It's true we never really know what we'll do in situations like that... I've never been in a situation that bad, but it's comforting for me to have that memory. I at least know people who I'm certain don't stand for that kind of cruelty.

Oct 28, 2009#44

Dave

Update:

Up to 20 people were there.

Holy shit.

Oct 28, 2009#45

Shegokigo

Was scouring 4chan last night and saw no word of this, seems like it's going to take a week before it hits the in-tar-wub.

Oct 28, 2009#46

Dave

Shegokigo said:
Was scouring 4chan last night and saw no word of this, seems like it's going to take a week before it hits the in-tar-wub.

Or maybe they realize that the police is all over this and if they post it they'll get snagged.

Oct 28, 2009#47

Shegokigo

Dave said:
Or maybe they realize that the police is all over this and if they post it they'll get snagged.

Oh, that. Was. Comedy. Thanks Dave.

Oct 28, 2009#48

Dave

Shegokigo;285019][quote=Dave said:
Or maybe they realize that the police is all over this and if they post it they'll get snagged.

Oh, that. Was. Comedy. Thanks Dave.[/QUOTE]

Not every /b/tard is a /re/tard.

Oct 28, 2009#49

Shegokigo

No doubt, but you are talking about people who did what is in the OP to begin with.

Oct 28, 2009#50

Dave

Shegokigo said:
No doubt, but you are talking about people who did what is in the OP to begin with.

True, but most kids of that age do things and THEN realize what the consequences are. So I assume that some of them are probably devastated by what they witnessed (or did) and are now regretting it.

Oct 28, 2009#51

Shegokigo

Devestated?

I'm thinking more like "Scared of getting caught now" would be more appropriate.

Still, if there was a "anon" at that situation OR in the police department that gets ahold of the video, I know we'll see it up soon enough.

Oct 28, 2009#52

Jake

IronBrig4 said:
Remember where this is: the BAY AREA. Those pussies don't even believe in violence for self-defense.

Take a walk through Oakland at 2am. Ass.

Oct 28, 2009#53

Shannow

Ahahahahahahahah, internet toughguys!

Oct 28, 2009#54

Shegokigo

Shannow said:
Ahahahahahahahah, internet toughguys!

Oct 28, 2009#55

Shannow

Same could be said at you there, miss "I am a psycho, no really!"

Oct 28, 2009#56

Shegokigo

Except I don't try and prove it or really care one way or another if people believe it. :slywink:

Oct 28, 2009#57

Shannow

And I apparently do, with that irony pic, hmmmm? But there is no point, I am backing off your little troll.

Oct 28, 2009#58

Shegokigo

Well considering how you love calling people out. It kinda went with the attitude.

Oct 28, 2009#59

Chazwozel

Jake;285065][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Remember where this is: the BAY AREA. Those pussies don't even believe in violence for self-defense.

Take a walk through Oakland at 2am. Ass.[/QUOTE]

Souf Oakland? Or Norf?

Oct 28, 2009#60

Shegokigo

Chazwozel;285304][quote=Jake;285065][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Remember where this is: the BAY AREA. Those pussies don't even believe in violence for self-defense.

Take a walk through Oakland at 2am. Ass.[/QUOTE]

Souf Oakland? Or Norf?[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

Oct 28, 2009#61

Jake

Chazwozel;285304][quote=Jake;285065][quote=IronBrig4 said:
Remember where this is: the BAY AREA. Those pussies don't even believe in violence for self-defense.

Take a walk through Oakland at 2am. Ass.[/quote]

Souf Oakland? Or Norf?[/QUOTE]
The unicorns, rainbows, and fluffy kittens part that IronBrig has apparently visited. I stayed with a buddy there a few days and my impression was slightly different.

Oct 28, 2009#62

GasBandit

Universe 1.0 Dev notes:

People are broken. No ETA on fix. Currently recommended: system wipe, reformat, reinstall.

Oct 28, 2009#63

Shegokigo

Call me... the Reformatter! :twisted:

Oct 28, 2009#64

GasBandit

Shegokigo said:
Call me... the Reformatter!

Neh... you're more like a TSR virus that erases single sectors at random. Given an infinite amount of time, it might amount to a format, but...

Oct 28, 2009#65

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
Universe 1.0 Dev notes:

People are broken. No ETA on fix. Currently recommended: system wipe, reformat, reinstall.

That already failed once... maybe if fire is used this time...

Oct 28, 2009#66

GasBandit

@Li3n;285331][quote=GasBandit said:
Universe 1.0 Dev notes:

People are broken. No ETA on fix. Currently recommended: system wipe, reformat, reinstall.

That already failed once... maybe if fire is used this time...[/QUOTE]

That wasn't a reformat, it was more a reboot of the same code. A temporary solution, as we've seen.

Oct 28, 2009#67

Shannow

GasBandit;285335][quote=@Li3n;285331][quote=GasBandit said:
Universe 1.0 Dev notes:

People are broken. No ETA on fix. Currently recommended: system wipe, reformat, reinstall.

That already failed once... maybe if fire is used this time...[/quote]

That wasn't a reformat, it was more a reboot of the same code. A temporary solution, as we've seen.[/QUOTE]

Well, we could jsut put a magnet to the harddrive.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

Shegokigo said:
Well considering how you love calling people out. It kinda went with the attitude.

So wait, where is the irony?

...Damn it, sucked back in.

Oct 28, 2009#68

Dave

I always thought the first one was a DoS flood that was finally diagnosed by tech support and upgraded to Earth v2.0 now with rainbows.

Oct 28, 2009#69

Shannow

Dave said:
I always thought the first one was a DoS flood that was finally diagnosed by tech support and upgraded to Earth v2.0 now with rainbows.

They still havent patched in the gold ending though.

Oct 28, 2009#70

GasBandit

Oct 28, 2009#71

IronBrig4

Jake said:
The unicorns, rainbows, and fluffy kittens part that IronBrig has apparently visited. I stayed with a buddy there a few days and my impression was slightly different.

Okay fine, I'll put in a caveat that Oakland is different. Raider fans in particular are a quarrelsome lot.

Oct 29, 2009#72

IronBrig4

http://www.clrsearch.com/RSS/Demographics/CA/Richmond/Crime_Statistics

Wow, the crime rate in Richmond is significantly higher than the national average. Why would there be an unchaperoned dance in a place like that?

Oct 29, 2009#73

GasBandit

IronBrig4 said:
http://www.clrsearch.com/RSS/Demographics/CA/Richmond/Crime_Statistics

Wow, the crime rate in Richmond is significantly higher than the national average. Why would there be an unchaperoned dance in a place like that?

Reference my first post in this thread.

Oct 29, 2009#74

Twitch

elph;284093][quote=Bowielee said:
Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

Oct 29, 2009#75

Espy

Twitch;286532][quote=elph;284093][quote=Bowielee said:
Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

Oct 29, 2009#76

Twitch

Espy;286536][quote=Twitch;286532][quote=elph;284093][quote=Bowielee said:
Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

It's sick, but if *you* were the only one to stand up against a mob of 5 - 10+ (I'm just giving numbers here, I didn't notice it give any specific numbers to go by), I'm sure you'd be hesitant to act.[/quote]
I know I really do sound like hurr durr internet tough guy but my glock has 17 rounds and I'm a good shot.[/quote]

My cell phone has 911 on it and I imagine it would give us the same result but with much less bloodshed and I don't even need to be a tough guy! W00t![/QUOTE]
I was referring to if a crowd of 10+ gave me trouble for speaking up or calling 911 and why that's not that terrifying. (It's still fucking terrifying)

Oct 29, 2009#77

Espy

Twitch;286538][quote=Espy;286536][quote=Twitch;286532][quote=elph;284093][quote=Bowielee said:
Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

Oct 29, 2009#78

Twitch

Espy;286570][quote=Twitch;286538][quote=Espy;286536][quote=Twitch;286532][quote=elph;284093][quote=Bowielee said:
Yeah, this isn't the bystander effect. People actually came out specifically to watch.

It's sick, but if *you* were the only one to stand up against a mob of 5 - 10+ (I'm just giving numbers here, I didn't notice it give any specific numbers to go by), I'm sure you'd be hesitant to act.[/quote]
I know I really do sound like hurr durr internet tough guy but my glock has 17 rounds and I'm a good shot.[/quote]

My cell phone has 911 on it and I imagine it would give us the same result but with much less bloodshed and I don't even need to be a tough guy! W00t![/quote]
I was referring to if a crowd of 10+ gave me trouble for speaking up or calling 911 and why that's not that terrifying. (It's still fucking terrifying)[/quote]

Ah, yeah, well as long as you have it on you, go nuts.

[/QUOTE]
Hey, a crowd of ten comes at me, all bets are off.

Oct 30, 2009#79

SeraRelm

I wouldn't want to get near that crowd in the first place for obvious reasons, but I'd call 911 anyway if I even thought something like that was going down.

Oct 30, 2009#80

IronBrig4

Twitch said:
Hey, a crowd of ten comes at me, all bets are off.

Aim for the scrotum. It's what this good fellow would do.

I seriously think we should bring back public flogging. In the case of these guys, they should be castrated WITHOUT anesthesia in full view of the public. It worked for centuries but then we got all sensitive.

Oct 30, 2009#81

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig4 said:
I seriously think we should bring back public flogging. In the case of these guys, they should be castrated WITHOUT anesthesia in full view of the public. It worked for centuries but then we got all sensitive.

Nope. We shouldn't do any of that. It's barbaric and horrible.

Oct 30, 2009#82

Chazwozel

IronBrig4;286739][quote=Twitch said:
Hey, a crowd of ten comes at me, all bets are off.

Aim for the scrotum. It's what this good fellow would do.

Oct 30, 2009#83

Shegokigo

Charlie Dont Surf;286772][quote=IronBrig4 said:
I seriously think we should bring back public flogging. In the case of these guys, they should be castrated WITHOUT anesthesia in full view of the public. It worked for centuries but then we got all sensitive.

It's barbaric and horrible.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! :twisted:

Oct 30, 2009#84

Chibibar

Would I call 911?? you bet. When I witness horrible accident on the road, I usually call 911 unless the police is already there. Would I call in this situation? more than likely for several reasons.
1. It occur in a highschool
2. public sex act (more than likely involve minors)
3. multiple people attacking a single person.

I have call in before (back in my highschool with hazing) I would do it today.

Oct 30, 2009#85

IronBrig4

Charlie Dont Surf said:
It's barbaric and horrible.

That's kinda the point. The punishment should fit the crime.

Oct 30, 2009#86

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig4;287136][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
It's barbaric and horrible.

That's kinda the point. The punishment should fit the crime.[/QUOTE]

Nah, not really.

Nov 1, 2009#87

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Charlie Dont Surf;287144][quote=IronBrig4;287136][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
It's barbaric and horrible.

That's kinda the point. The punishment should fit the crime.[/QUOTE]

Nah, not really.[/QUOTE]

They should be publicly shamed, criminals never like having their deeds exposed to the light of day.

Nov 1, 2009#88

Silvanesti

BlackCrossCrusader;287449][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;287144][quote=IronBrig4;287136][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
It's barbaric and horrible.

That's kinda the point. The punishment should fit the crime.[/QUOTE]

Nah, not really.[/QUOTE]

They should be publicly shamed, criminals never like having their deeds exposed to the light of day.[/QUOTE]

Sayeth the Blackcrosscrusader. :batman:

Nov 1, 2009#89

Troll

Oh IronBrig, I think it's so funny that you're talking shit about the Bay Area. It lets me know you have no clue what you're talking about. It's not all hippies and hybrids over here, trust me.

Nov 2, 2009#90

crono1224

Yay it devolved into another cry for castration and public humiliation.

Nov 2, 2009#91

North_Ranger

crono1224 said:
Yay it devolved into another cry for castration and public humiliation.

Hi, you must be new here...

Nah, seriously though... It might have something to do with the fact that after murder and kiddy-fiddling, rape is probably the most prominent serious crime that riles people up. And when people are riled up, old-school methods of punishment are suggested, in accordance with "eye for an eye" and wanting to exact revenge.

It's too early in the morning to think of creative punishment methods for rapists. I'll get back to you on that. Perhaps a codpiece with razorblades inside...

Nov 2, 2009#92

IronBrig4

A Troll said:
Oh IronBrig, I think it's so funny that you're talking shit about the Bay Area. It lets me know you have no clue what you're talking about. It's not all hippies and hybrids over here, trust me.

Okay fine, I was being bigoted. But that bigotry comes from teaching at San Diego State University, which receives tons of students from the Bay Area. Many of said students (and their parents) are the hippies who think they are... so forward thinking and tolerant of different social norms in regard to crime.

Nov 2, 2009#93

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Silvanesti;287462][quote=BlackCrossCrusader;287449][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;287144][quote=IronBrig4;287136][quote=Charlie Dont Surf said:
It's barbaric and horrible.

Nov 2, 2009#94

IronBrig4

North_Ranger said:
It's too early in the morning to think of creative punishment methods for rapists. I'll get back to you on that. Perhaps a codpiece with razorblades inside...

Sex offenders (including rapists) have the highest recidivism rate among released prisoners. In other words, they are the most likely to commit the very same crimes again, even after they've done hard time. Why should we not remove the instruments they used to commit rape? It should also be viewed by a festive public audience. Sometimes old school methods are the best.

Maybe we could put that on pay-per-view and tax the proceeds. Think about the thousands of people who flocked to public hangings in Victorian England. To use a modern example, consider the millions who spend $10 apiece to see films like Hostel and the Saw series. Passion of the Christ was basically a snuff film as well, and look at the profits. If we did that, our criminal justice system would soon pay for itself. So in one stroke we accomplish two things: rapists get what they deserve in the form of a deliciously ironic punishment, and we get out of the recession. Yes, yes, I know I'm a financial guru.

Man, we need a pair of these guys in every major US city.

Nov 2, 2009#95

Silvanesti

yay summary execution!

Nov 2, 2009#96

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig I am thankful every day that people like you have absolutely no power or authority

Nov 2, 2009#97

Cajungal

Nov 2, 2009#98

IronBrig4

Charlie Dont Surf said:
IronBrig I am thankful every day that people like you have absolutely no power or authority

There should be an emote for "I'm just fucking around."

To tell the truth, I was very nearly a police officer and passed everything including the psychological evaluation. The only reason I wasn't hired was because the economy sucked at the time and 500 people applied for a mere four positions. I actually made it to the final application pool.

I've toured a number of prisons throughout California while earning a degree in criminal justice. Those facilities ranged from minimum security womens' prisons to San Quentin. A lot of the inmates were normal folks who committed their crimes in the heat of passion or in desperation. Violent sex offenders, on the other hand, are real pieces of work. There is little to be done for them. Many are repeat offenders who actually premeditate their crimes. Furthermore, the vocational/educational programs that prisons offer are least likely to affect them. They are very likely to rape and molest again upon release. While sex offenders are less likely to be rearrested for any offense, they are much more likely to be rearrested for a sex crime. Most of those committed said crime within one year after release.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#inmates

Those rapists at that dance behaved like the worst form of degenerates. Therefore, they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Nov 3, 2009#99

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Are you still fucking around here? Because this sentiment is horrible.

Nov 3, 2009#100

Chazwozel

Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Nov 3, 2009#101

The Lovely Boehner

Chazwozel;288396][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Nov 3, 2009#102

Chazwozel

Charlie Dont Surf;288401][quote=Chazwozel;288396][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Are you still fucking around here? Because this sentiment is horrible.[/QUOTE]

Singapore bases it's whole punishment system on this sentiment (public humiliation and flogging) and their crime rate is the lowest in the world.[/QUOTE]

That doesn't make it right.[/QUOTE]

Tell that to victims of violent crimes. In my eyes, when someone commits a violent crime that's premeditated or inconceivably horrible, such as this gang-rape, they revoke their rights to being treated humanely.

Nov 3, 2009#103

Iaculus

Chazwozel;288396][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Are you still fucking around here? Because this sentiment is horrible.[/quote]

Singapore bases it's whole punishment system on this sentiment (public humiliation and flogging) and their crime rate is the lowest in the world.[/quote]

Small countries tend to be easier to govern, though. Just check out Switzerland.

Correlation =/= causation.

Nov 3, 2009#104

Chazwozel

Iaculus;288427][quote=Chazwozel;288396][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Nov 3, 2009#105

Iaculus

Chazwozel;288431][quote=Iaculus;288427][quote=Chazwozel;288396][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Nov 3, 2009#106

The Lovely Boehner

Chazwozel said:
In my eyes, when someone commits a violent crime that's premeditated or inconceivably horrible, such as this gang-rape, they revoke their rights to being treated humanely.

Not here, not in America. And that's a good thing.

Nov 3, 2009#107

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Are you still fucking around here? Because this sentiment is horrible.[/QUOTE]

Wow, you really don't understand violence, at all.

Nov 3, 2009#108

Shegokigo

I think Charlie understands violence better than most. Probably along the same lines as I do, just different spectrums.

He's completely justified in his opinion, if America were an "eye for an eye" country. Alot of you wouldn't be around.

Nov 3, 2009#109

Frankie Williamson

BlackCrossCrusader;288554][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Are you still fucking around here? Because this sentiment is horrible.[/QUOTE]

Wow, you really don't understand violence, at all.[/QUOTE]

Explain this statement please.

Nov 3, 2009#110

ThatGrinningIdiot!

Shegokigo said:
I think Charlie understands violence better than most. Probably along the same lines as I do, just different spectrums.

He's completely justified in his opinion, if America were an "eye for an eye" country. Alot of you wouldn't be around.

I agree that the 'eye for an eye' is a terrible method for enforcing justice. But that wasn't what I was referring too.

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

Frankie;288566][quote=BlackCrossCrusader;288554][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288359][quote=IronBrig4 said:
they should be punished in such a cruelly savage manner that other potential rapists would think twice before raping someone.

Are you still fucking around here? Because this sentiment is horrible.[/QUOTE]

Wow, you really don't understand violence, at all.[/QUOTE]

Explain this statement please.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but no. I retract this statement, I should've known better to goad anyone. My mood got the better of my judgement.

Nov 3, 2009#111

Silvanesti

Charlie Dont Surf;288446][quote=Chazwozel said:
In my eyes, when someone commits a violent crime that's premeditated or inconceivably horrible, such as this gang-rape, they revoke their rights to being treated humanely.

Not here, not in America. And that's a good thing.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more.

Nov 3, 2009#112

Shannow

Silvanesti;288594][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288446][quote=Chazwozel said:
In my eyes, when someone commits a violent crime that's premeditated or inconceivably horrible, such as this gang-rape, they revoke their rights to being treated humanely.

Not here, not in America. And that's a good thing.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.[/QUOTE]

thirded

Nov 3, 2009#113

Twitch

Shannow;288617][quote=Silvanesti;288594][quote=Charlie Dont Surf;288446][quote=Chazwozel said:
In my eyes, when someone commits a violent crime that's premeditated or inconceivably horrible, such as this gang-rape, they revoke their rights to being treated humanely.

Not here, not in America. And that's a good thing.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.[/quote]

thirded[/QUOTE]
Until zombies coat the country and it's the only way of dealing with criminals I like our justice system as it is. Minus the death penalty thing, unless you're Dahmer but there's no way of drawing that line so not even then. I'm not afraid of violence and I'm all for victims protecting themselves but the government shouldn't be torturing people as punishment.

Nov 3, 2009#114

IronBrig4

Charlie Dont Surf said:
Not here, not in America. And that's a good thing.

No, here we just send rapists to prison for a few years where they get cable TV. Then they get released and commit another rape within a year.

These particular scumbags will be charged with rape and battery of a minor. If they are released into the prison's general population... boy howdy they're not gonna last long. Actually, it's a fitting punishment for them. The other inmates will see to that.

Nov 3, 2009#115

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig4 said:
boy howdy they're not gonna last long. Actually, it's a fitting punishment for them. The other inmates will see to that.

Our prison system, as it is right now, also qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment.

Nov 3, 2009#116

IronBrig4

Charlie Dont Surf said:
Our prison system, as it is right now, also qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment.

Prisons aren't exactly supposed to be pleasant. They're supposed to be distinctly unpleasant so people won't aspire to go there.

There's no reason these rapists shouldn't have every cruelty inflicted upon them. They will merely take advantage of any mercy and then brag about it to their buddies.

Nov 3, 2009#117

The Lovely Boehner

IronBrig4 said:
There's no reason these rapists shouldn't have every cruelty inflicted upon them.

Yes there is. We're not fucking savages. There is a huge gulf between the resort minimum security prisons and getting gangraped in the shower every day.

Nov 3, 2009#118

IronBrig4

If somebody behaves like a wild animal and gang-rapes a teenaged girl, then they should be treated like a wild animal themselves. There is no excuse for what they did, no mitigating factors, NOTHING. I'm not suggesting we hang them in full view of picnicking crowds (yes, it used to a festive event with spectators) but they must suffer. There is little chance of reintroducing them into society because they'll just rape again.

*Fucking Around Mode*

Maybe we should do this again. It's not much different than UFC, we free up room in our prisons, and the money will go to a good cause.

Nov 3, 2009#119

Espy

It is true though, that when you commit a crime you lose human freedoms. So no matter how you want to look at it it still happens. The question is what freedoms and how many.

Nov 3, 2009#120

Silvanesti

IronBrig4 said:
...but they must suffer...

Nov 3, 2009#121

Bubble181

We've been around the block often enough on this, I think.
Anyway...Prison serves multiple purposes. Those believing it's to protect society, those who believe it's to help the inmates, and those who believe it should be revenge on the purpatrators of evil, will never see eye to eye.
Me, I'm still on the side of those who believe that most *not all* people who end up in prison can be helped with *good* re-education, re-adjustment, and psychological treatment and careful watching and suivi.
Yes, some are completely rotten through and through and through...either psychiatrical cases, or just plain vile people. They're pretty rare, though. I'm completely convicned that most people could be made right given proper councelling.

These guys - they're not horrible inhuman creatures. They're (probably, mostly) drunk fratboys who didn't know well enough where the boundaries were, and what was or wasn't right, and wouldn't do anything remotely like it without alcohol. They need their moral code examined and re thought, they might need some schooling so they can find a purpose in life, and they need punishment to make it clear this is unacceptable - they don't need to be gang-raped themselves. That won't do anything but make sure that when they get out of prison, they'll be 10x worse than they are now.

Nov 4, 2009#122

crono1224

So in them losing their 'humanity' in committing their heinous crimes we should lose ours in our punishment of them?

If our prisons are failing to rehabilitate its a joint fault in them being fucked up and us being unable to change them. Also to be fair if the recitivism rate is 99% that means their is still 1% that doesn't commit the crime again, grats you just brutally tourtured a guy that wasn't going to commit the crime again.

Nov 4, 2009#123

IronBrig4

Silvanesti;289055][quote=IronBrig4 said:
...but they must suffer...

Why?

What would the reason be for the suffering? What good would it bring? It seems like you just want some perverted sense of justice.

As long as they're off the street then I think thats the important thing. If it makes you happy to think of the prisioner being raped and harmed, then good for you.[/QUOTE]

Believe it or not, I'm a fan of restorative justice for misdemeanors, victimless crimes, and even some felonies. Restorative justice is when the victim and perpetrator meet face to face, talk about what happened, and talk about what the sentence should be. There is no jail time and it usually ends with the criminal doing a lot of services for the victim. Hell, I'm human and I understand that a lot of crooks became that way because of desperation or in the heat of passion. I'm all for giving those people a second chance, and education is the best way to do that.

While touring various prisons, I could see inmates working the machine shops and bakeries, learning a trade so they wouldn't have to steal upon release. Others were working on their GED and were even taking online university courses. I wish them the very best. Prisons should save those who are worth saving.

And then we have scumbags who must be handled without clemency or pity. As for these rapists, they must be punished because they are beyond redemption. Like I have said several times, statistics prove that sex offenders are more likely to commit the very same crime again. They knew full well what they were doing, and being intoxicated is no defense. They were probably high-fiving each other before the police showed up. Severe and excruciatingly painful punishment is the only thing that will get through to them.

If they go to prison, I don't think we have to worry about them getting out worse than before. That's because they'll be guaranteed a very short life once the other inmates find out they raped a minor. These vermin will be gang-raped every day in the showers so they can suffer as the girl suffered. Then, one day, they'll get a shiv through the ribs. May Sigmar have mercy on their souls.

Nov 4, 2009#124

crono1224

Ya always nice to see vindictive criminal justice hopefuls, I have been to several jails as i also got a criminal justice degree. And you want to know one of the problems of recitivism for sex offenders is exactly what you say, how can they change when once they are basically charged with the crime they are no longer treated as human beings.

How can you rehabilitate someone that you consistently demean. I'm sorry but the fact you refer to them as vermin and worst only shows that they don't have a chance of being treated fairly or being rehabilitated by you.

Nov 4, 2009#125

IronBrig4

I know I can't rehabilitate sex offenders (I don't think anybody can), and that's partly why I attempted to join the law enforcement rather than the corrections track. Various other reasons contributed to my final decision to earn an MA in history and pursue a PhD in naval history.

And these rapists are vermin, pure and simple. There is a threshold for society's tolerance and understanding. With this particular crime, there is no way to rationalize or excuse these scumbags' actions. It doesn't matter if they were drunk (which is not a valid defense in court), if there was a lot of peer pressure, or if Mommy and Daddy didn't love them enough.

Nov 4, 2009#126

crono1224

So you continue degrading them thus insuring that they will never break out of their problems. You can feel how ever you want about them but if you ridicule them and suggest punishments that push them to sub-human lifestyle you can't get all uppity when they continue to not behave correctly.

Maybe if you treated them like any other criminal and made a concious attempt to help them, you could cut the recitivism rate down even a fraction which is better than the current system of spitting on them and marking them, thus insuring that only the lucky ones don't repeat.

But regardless it is slightly amusing how people can call someone inhuman and then suggest punishments that are sometimes more disgusting than the crime itself.

Nov 4, 2009#127

Silvanesti

IronBrig4 said:
As for these rapists, they must be punished because they are beyond redemption....

If they go to prison, I don't think we have to worry about them getting out worse than before. That's because they'll be guaranteed a very short life once the other inmates find out they raped a minor. These vermin will be gang-raped every day in the showers so they can suffer as the girl suffered. Then, one day, they'll get a shiv through the ribs. May Sigmar have mercy on their souls.

Wow. You are totally awesome bro.

Nov 4, 2009#128

IronBrig4

crono1224 said:
Maybe if you treated them like any other criminal and made a concious attempt to help them, you could cut the recitivism rate down even a fraction which is better than the current system of spitting on them and marking them, thus insuring that only the lucky ones don't repeat.

But regardless it is slightly amusing how people can call someone inhuman and then suggest punishments that are sometimes more disgusting than the crime itself.

Even with help there's a significant recidivism rate. While the child molesters tend to not last long in prison, those who rape adults generally aren't hunted down and have the same access to help. They continue to rape after they get out because they are simply vile people. There's a site where you can see a map that shows where the sex offenders live. Most of them choose to live neighborhoods close to universities. It's not because they're taking classes or just like reading microfilm; there's too much young college ass for them to resist.

The scum who rape minors should be treated as such. They CHOSE to commit that gang rape, so they no longer deserve the luxury of civilized punishment.

"You are totally awesome bro."

Why thank you. You're not so bad yourself.

Nov 4, 2009#129

Chazwozel

IronBrig4 said:
I know I can't rehabilitate sex offenders (I don't think anybody can), and that's partly why I attempted to join the law enforcement rather than the corrections track. Various other reasons contributed to my final decision to earn an MA in history and pursue a PhD in naval history.

And these rapists are vermin, pure and simple. There is a threshold for society's tolerance and understanding. With this particular crime, there is no way to rationalize or excuse these scumbags' actions. It doesn't matter if they were drunk (which is not a valid defense in court), if there was a lot of peer pressure, or if Mommy and Daddy didn't love them enough.

I...I...I think I have my first forum man crush.

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