Congresswoman Shot

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GasBandit

Staff member
See, that is where we differ. I'd much rather have my representatives earning their wages and serving their country than hemhawing back and forth just to fulfill some naive notion of the country being better when people are allowed to eat each other alive.
The only thing the federal government "does" to earn its wage is spend money faster than it can be made. The only times in living memory in which the growth of government spending did not outpace the growth of GDP has been when the legislature is controlled by the opposite party from the president. Every year, we have hundreds of bills passed to create more federal agencies to regulate more and more aspects of the common citizen's life, while kicking the "cost" can down the road for "somebody else" to deal with. Is there really so much undone that we need approximately 40 bills passed by each house every month?

We should not be gauging legislative performance by the number of bills passed... we should be gauging it by the quality and effect of those bills and the overall wellness of the republic as a whole.

Right now, a little gridlock would be a welcome relief, and legislators that have the conviction to stick to their principles instead of swap votes in back rooms would be... well, probably too much to hope for.
 
But since you asked - No, I don't think anything is wrong with the "tone" of politics lately. I don't think anything was wrong with Obama talking about bringing a gun to a knife fight, or saying to reload instead of retreating, or anything like that. I think this tragic act of murder has been completely co-opted for political purposes when there was absolutely nothing political about the attack. There is absolutely no comparison between today's political "rhetoric" and "shouting fire in a crowded theater." Political rancor has always been acrimonious, personal, and laced with violent overtones - going all the way back to the founding of our nation. If you want to do something about the angry tone of political speech, maybe something ought to be done to address the causes of that speech.

GW Bush was routinely burned or beheaded in effigy. An NPR correspondent said she hoped Jesse Helms and his grandchildren contracted AIDS. Chris Matthews said he wanted to see someone shoot Rush Limbaugh in the head with a "CO2 pellet." Montel Williams told Michelle Bachmann (R-Minnesota) to slit her wrists, or "better yet" cut her own throat. Bill Maher said it was a "fact" that if Dick Cheney were to die, more people would live. "Just saying."

What do all the above, and all the supposed "republican rhetoric" have in common? They're all protected by the first amendment, they're all emotionally emphatic political statements, and, at least to my mind, they're perfectly permissible and absolutely unconnectable with the commission of any violent crime.

Frankly, I think we could use a few more incidents of fisticuffs on the senate floor, personally.

You want to talk about what's bad for the country? Let's talk about bipartisanship. Backroom deals. Political bribery and backscratching. That's what's killing us, crushing us under the weight of our own federal government.
See Gas, you actually can make a good point when you try...
 
I never said number of bills.

I want actual debate, not shutting down bills before they've had a chance to even talk about it. I want the best ideas to rise to the top and for the legislatures to do the job intended for them- serve the public. I want the good of the people to be weighed as equal as the good for the businesses.

I admit, I want the impossible, just like you. We just think different roads will bring the most good.
 
Add to your list: Giving everyone enough time to read and know whats in a bill before they vote for it. And maybe some reasonable term limits.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I never said number of bills.

I want actual debate, not shutting down bills before they've had a chance to even talk about it. I want the best ideas to rise to the top and for the legislatures to do the job intended for them- serve the public. I want the good of the people to be weighed as equal as the good for the businesses.

I admit, I want the impossible, just like you. We just think different roads will bring the most good.
If we want actual debate, we need time for actual debate as well - as in, allowing bills up for a vote to be accessible (and available online even) for a minimum of 1 to 2 weeks before the actual vote on the bill - something Obama promised in his campaign on transparency and then was quickly shucked. Some of the most transformative (and to my mind, nation-damaging) legislation of the last two years has come about with the bill being made available for review around midnight of the night before the morning in which the vote on that bill was to take place.

Congress needs to move slower. Once a final form of a bill is made for vote, there should be at least a week (during which the text of the bill must also be available online and/or in some other published format) to review and submit further changes before voting. Once a week has passed with no alteration of the bill, then a vote can be brought. The first thing that has to go is this "quick vote before anybody can read it" horsepucky. That'd be a good start.
Added at: 14:13
Add to your list: Giving everyone enough time to read and know whats in a bill before they vote for it. And maybe some reasonable term limits.
Doh, took me longer to type.
 
Congress doesn't need to move slower. Many of the bills congress people say they need more time for have been available for half a year or more. It's intentional inefficiency on the part of many Congress people.

I'm for two weeks online available. That would be great for debate and democracy. However, filibustering it for 5 months and then complaining when it can be voted on isn't the same as 'not being available'.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Congress doesn't need to move slower. Many of the bills congress people say they need more time for have been available for half a year or more. It's intentional inefficiency on the part of many Congress people.

I'm for two weeks online available. That would be great for debate and democracy. However, filibustering it for 5 months and then complaining when it can be voted on isn't the same as 'not being available'.
That wasn't the case with, for example, the health care legislation, or a number of other bills that got sneaked through and crammed past.

The crux of the point I'm trying to make is that there has to be a version of the bill, available for open review, that remains unchanged for a week before it can go to vote.
 
Hey, I'm with ya. There is a lot I want changed to allow better legislation.

(see what we did there? We talked about ways to improve things, agreed on the best ideas, and then moved on. That's how Congress should work)
 
He never committed any crime to get the notice of law enforcement. Just because some one talks about topics at odd times, and disrupts his class does not mean that he will shoot dozens of people.

Maybe the parents could have seen something, but it is difficult to see a lonely child as a sociopath.
 
Just because some one talks about topics at odd times, and disrupts his class does not mean that he will shoot dozens of people.
No, of course not, but as human beings we are to some degree driven to find an explanation for behavior that is abnormal. It's a survival instinct.
 
R

rabbitgod

Let me preface this with saying that I think he's crazy.

What I would like though is for experts to evaluate him. People (a lot on the right) are quick to dismiss him as crazy. People (a lot on the left) are quick to say it's political. I say we find out from him.

Also, I don't buy the "he was shooting at the world" thing. If that were true, he could have on any day just walked into that grocery store and shoot at people. It's a busy store, he would probably have killed more. Or a street fair that was a few weeks ago and again in April that has 10s of thousands of people at any given time.

Still a nutter, but I'd like to see how things pan out.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
There's been something nagging at me all along in this affair, and I think I might have finally put my finger on it. Murders are constantly happening all around us. Heck, this one incident saw not only Congresswoman Giffords shot, but over 20 other people as well, many of whom died. But the Judge who died gets maybe a couple line mention from time to time, James Eric Fuller gets mentioned only because a week later he starts publicly threatening another politician with death.. but for the most part, they're barely scenery. They're as potted plants or curtains on fake windows on the stage that is the media extravaganza of The Assassination of a Politician.

Forget the domestic squabbles that end in the death of a mother or father, forget the store clerk bleeding to death on the floor behind his counter, forget the innocent bystander shot in a drive-by that wasn't even aimed at him. Those are all just numbers that we sigh about, and then dismiss. But ONE politician, and the first in 30 years (since Ronald Reagan in '81), is shot and the ENTIRE NATIONAL NEWS CYCLE MUST STOP and do nothing but drill and rehash and soul search. Suddenly we're jostled into panic mode and must re-evaluate our laws, our culture, our outlook on life because of one (attempted) murder, and not the successful ~600,000 others that occurred during that 30 years.

It seems to me that half a million plebs getting murdered doesn't equal the furor brought by the attack on one patrician, or really, even the threat of an attack on one. The whole point of this 200-someodd year old experiment in self-government we live in here is that we deny that anybody is better than anybody else, particularly those we deign to (temporarily) put in charge! Do we really believe anymore that "all men are created equal?" Did we ever really?

I'm not trying to diminish or dismiss the sadness of the tragedy of this crime. I'm wondering where the furor was against the previous senseless murder, or the one before that - you know, the ones whose victims were not politicians or celebrities - the de facto elite/royal class we as a culture have seemed to foist up above us despite our professed better judgement. 15,241 people were murdered in 2009, and it's not a story, it's a statistic. Not a cause for alarm or contemplation or changing of our ways. One politician is attacked by a mentally deranged killer, a lunatic for whom rules, laws, and social conventions have no meaning... and all of a sudden we're expected to re-examine and change our rules, laws and social conventions. No governmental policy could have prevented this outcome short of a police state that even Orwell would believe impossible. He was a maniac. There have always been maniacs, and there will continue to be maniacs. People who kill not for any higher cause or understandable reason or even just a fit of anger gone out of control - people who kill because they want to kill. People who kill because they like it. People who kill because they are sociopaths who think the only negative aspect of killing someone can be mitigated if they avoid capture. Restricting our first or second amendment rights here will not grant consciences to sociopaths nor lucidity to psychopaths, much less calm the manic.

I'll end with a quote I found, surprisingly enough to me, in a Huffington Post Article (which is in itself a good read) -

"We may badly want to do something, but we will be better off in the end if we hug our jerking knees and find our cool. The ordinary operation of the criminal-justice system is enough for now. If you've got to do something, why not tell a pundit or politician yammering on about background checks or forced institutionalisation to please shut up, since it's just too soon for reason to prevail." - Will Wilkerson.
 
To quote (as best as I can) Animal Farm...
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
I know Orwell was talking about Communism, but I think the quote still fits. Basically, I think that while everyone DOES believe that we are all equal on some level, that doesn't change the fact that some people get a leg up in life, ether through talent, ability, or influence. No one likes this (except the powerful and those who want to be powerful themselves) but we understand it's not something we can change without some kind of revolutionary means of allowing everyone to have everything they need/want in life. In other words, true equality is impossible until a post scarcity economy. Until then all we can do is get by with as much freedom as you can take.

As for why it's such a big deal when someone famous/powerful is attacked...


To put it simply: It did not go according to the social plan. People understand that the common man has less protection than the powerful, so when something horrible happens to us, it's not surprising. It IS surprising when one of the leaders of our country or someone famous gets attacked... there is the unspoken knowledge that these people are being protected better than we are. When something like this happens, most people think to themselves "If we can't even protect -insert name here-, what chance do -I- have?" and when people panic... society crumbles.
 
Whatever happened to "He shot her because he was CRAZY" as a viable explanation?
Pfft, like that's enough to sustain a whole news cycle...

Gas said:
It seems to me that half a million plebs getting murdered doesn't equal the furor brought by the attack on one patrician, or really, even the threat of an attack on one.
The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic. - Pseudo-Stalin
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Yeah, I've heard that pablum for years too, it doesn't make it any less irritating to watch us re-elevate a ruling class.
 
I think the keyword here is "relevance" it's not that we're ignoring the lower class killings and news cycling the political killings because of class (although that's a portion of the reason, but not the major reason) it has to do with whether the killing is relevant to us or not.

A mass shooting of ANY kind is relevant to everyone.

A political assasination is relevant to most people.

A drug deal gone south is relevant only to those local to the matter.

A celebrity murder/suicide/death is relevant to a wide range of people.
 
Yeah, I've heard that pablum for years too, it doesn't make it any less irritating to watch us re-elevate a ruling class.
Re-elevate?! Are you actually under the impression that there was ever a time when someone in a position of power/fame getting shot had the same effect on the population as someone of the middle class?
 
C

Chibibar

I have to agree with Gas here. We usually hear news about X famous person being shot, killed, scandal, etc etc etc. Why are they any better? There are millions of people losing their homes (projected at 2 million or so I think for 2011) and we get a blurb, but I am betting if one of the "celeb" lost everything including their home, there will be front page news all over.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Re-elevate?! Are you actually under the impression that there was ever a time when someone in a position of power/fame getting shot had the same effect on the population as someone of the middle class?
Believe it or not, there was a time in america when assassination attempts were almost as common as elections.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
That isn't true, but ok. We can pretend this argument has never happened in the past if it helps you.
Well, now my curiosity is piqued - which assassination attempt, other than this one, brought about calls for limitations on the freedom of speech? I mean, the Alien and Sedition acts were due to a war, not an assassination... and nothing else springs readily to mind.
 
Has there been legislation entered to limit freedom of speech? Or are people saying that they are sick and tired of being threatened?

Palin is now whining about the people that are sending her death threats, it is their right to free speech too. Gabby had her share of death threats following Palin's targeting of her.
 
Has there been legislation entered to limit freedom of speech? Or are people saying that they are sick and tired of being threatened?

Palin is now whining about the people that are sending her death threats, it is their right to free speech too. Gabby had her share of death threats following Palin's targeting of her.
Death threats are not a protected form of speech, so Palin has every right to complain.

And to sizpackshaker's first point, it's an important question. Are there proposed laws to limit speech in reaction to the Arizona shooting? Because if it's just people saying that the tone should be more civil, that is not a call to limit anyone's rights.
 
C

Chibibar

There is a bill limiting the right to bear arms (well technically more of limiting the clip size)
 
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