Yeah, ok, do me a favor. Go to Time Square and wave 100 bucks around. Post me a picture of your surprised face when someone snatches it from you.
[News] Daniel Tosh is an ass.
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Yeah, ok, do me a favor. Go to Time Square and wave 100 bucks around. Post me a picture of your surprised face when someone snatches it from you.
That is exactly the same as someone forcing his dick into you.
What? Are you high? I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that's what's going to happen.
He wasn't talking about rape; he was talking about giving a woman a harsh comeback. You are deliberately twisting his argument to suggest he's a rape apologist. His analogy of waving a bill in front of someone and getting it stolen, is much closer to heckling a comedian and getting chewed out, than your comparison to rape. Reread this thread; either you're misinterpreting and are, for some reason, suddenly thinking he's defending some sort of rape, or you're strawmanning out of your ass and trying to make him look guilty by association, both of which are crappy argumentational tools for when you know you're losing the debate.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? Fuck off you if you think for a second I'm condoning rape. You can eat shit and die.
I'm not gonna get into this with you since rape = bad is some kind of gray area on your end.
Then don't change the scenario from opposing force (heckler vs guy on stage) to victim scenario (person with money vs thief) which considering the subject at hand and what checkeredhat pointed out, is the same kind of metaphor made by rapists of women who are "asking for it".
If that's not what you meant, you need a different analogy.
Not the disagree.
NOT THE DISAGREE!
Eh, I can't make fun of it anymore now that I've used it.
NOT THE DISAGREE!
Eh, I can't make fun of it anymore now that I've used it.
The scenario I described with the money is EXACTLY what went down with the heckler. EXACTLY! She waved a steak in front of a bear and then "oh shit faced" when it swatted a paw at her face. In no way am I saying something along the lines of "she deserved it because she wore a red dress". If you can't tell the difference then you're an idiot, and I have nothing more to say to you.
Well, he can't see me anymore, but I'll clarify that "rape is a gray area" and "sometimes women are asking for it"... yeah, that sounds like someone with a real understanding of what he said wrong.[DOUBLEPOST=1342144301][/DOUBLEPOST]
I don't agree, but I see where we're differing. You're saying because she made mention of the joke type being not funny, she invited him to try doing exactly that (which he failed completely and utterly). I was looking at it as she made a verbal prod, and he came back with a verbal overkill. So more like poking the bear and getting a swat than offering it to swat you.
YOU DON"T HECKLE A COMEDIAN! PERIOD! Just like you don't wave a salmon in front of a goddamn bear. How hard is that to understand?
WHAT COMEDIAN?
I'm a little puzzled by the disagrees I got about freedom of speech. I kind of wish people had explained that one rather than just disagree and move on.Not the disagree.
NOT THE DISAGREE!
Eh, I can't make fun of it anymore now that I've used it.
If you seriously can't grasp how fucked it was that she interrupted him the first place, then I think we're done discussing this.
All right, let's lay down my point of view in a nice and simple list.
- Tosh is no comedian.
- She shouldn't have heckled and was an ass for doing so. < -- I want people to remember this one as I get into the rest of it.
- If he was going to make a joke, he should have made one. There's a difference between making a rape joke and acting like rape itself is a joke. He did the latter, because all he did was bring up rape and say "wouldn't it be funny?" I understand some people lack talent and it's hard for him to create a witty comeback on the fly. He should've had something prepped, ignored her, or told her to get the hell out if she didn't like the show. He had alternatives, choices, but because he's a douchebag, he said what he said. It wasn't a situation of equal wrongs; one did wrong, he could've handled it in other ways. He didn't.
- Whether she genuinely felt threatened or she came home and launched an assault from the safety of the internet, he still shouldn't have said what he said. If the answer to his question is "no" then he shouldn't said it. She may be full of shit about how she felt. I don't know; I'm not in her head. He still shouldn't have said it.
- The answer is "no".
- Rape is bad. Clean cut, no gray areas as Bubble believes, it is bad, end of story.
I don't think Don Rickles ever condoned raping a heckler. He would insult the shit out of his hecklers but even Mr. Warmth would not cross that line.
Look, I took you right back off my ignore list because I didn't want to be a baby and whatever, but this? For the last time, GO READ WHAT I WROTE. Others even explained it better than I could. I was talking about instances where, for example, a girl was OK with it but changed her mind afterwards. I was talking about the fin line (and fuck off, it IS) between a girl who's had a bit to drink and has slightly lowered inhibitions, doing things she otherwise wouldn't dare, and a girl that has had too much to drink and does thinks she otherwise wouldn't want to. For all I care, there are some other grey areas you can include as well. An 18 year old with a 55 year old is legal and all you want, but is fucking creepy and wrong. A 19 year old and a 17 year old are illegal in many states/countries, while it can be a perfectly healthy relationship (I'm not talking Icarus-age-differences here, mind). I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, rape is a moral grey area. I have said, and will continue to say, that there are a lot of grey areas surrounding rape and similar issues.
What gets me most is that I agree with you on about 85% of all things, and you're usually quite articulate and smart. For some reason, you've got the idea stuck in your head that I'm an evil rape apologist asshole who thinks "a little bit of force to convince her isn't wrong" or something. Either get it through your head that that is not what I said or say; get off your fucking high white horse to observe the actual world, and not the ideal one where no girl has ever claimed rape where none happened, where no girl ever drank her own problems away and got into bed with someone afterwards who she'd not consider in plain daylight (and surprise! That one is a two way street! But if a guy gets so drunk he sleeps with a girl he thinks is ugly the day after ,he doesn't claim she raped him! ...usually), or leave me the fuck alone. Because I promise you, every time you call me out as some sort of rape apologist, I will come by to insult you and tell you to get the fuck off my case. There are plenty of things you can joke about with me; I'm skinny, a nervous wreck, in a depression because of FWPs, I'm bald and grey-haired at 27, I have a speech impediment, I wear glasses; my political views get me scolded by both left and right as an extremist the other way; but don't call me a rape apologist, mmkay?
It's actually pretty disgusting to twist someones argument into something along the lines that they're ok with rape. Any idiot can understand that pretty much everyone universally agrees that rape is bad with no grey areas. That doesn't mean that jokes about it don't have grey areas. I'm 100% certain that no where Bubble was defending rapists or the act itself. Any moron can see that, unless you're simply trolling to get a rise out of either of us.
In what world do you live in where those things are a major problem?
What they are talking about was in another thread in the Politics subforum from before you arrived here. Or atleast before I noticed. (Welcome, by the way. I'd say we aren't always like this.... but really there's usually at least one thread going like this one)
Thread and relevant comments can be found here, derive from them what you will, I'm staying out of it:
https://www.halforums.com/threads/u-s-military-rape-culture.27925/
We already had a lovely thread discussing this. I don't care if it's a small/minute problem. According to the official figures (and I'm absolutely in agreeance that rape is a hugely underreported crime and the actual numbers are much higher, unfortunately), the rape rate in the US is about 30 per 100.000 people. That is "rare"" and whatever as well. It's still a big issue. If even 1 in a thousand of those rapes is a case where it isn't cut-and-dried, where perhaps it wasn't actually rape but she's now claiming it is for some other reasons (to avoid divorce, say), or whatever, that's still 90 people A YEAR, in the US alone, who're being falsely accused of rape, or being threatened with the accusation of rape, or whatever.
You think those 90 lives aren't worth saving, or these cases aren't worth the consideration, and you're just as bad as the people who claim rape isn't a huge issue and only affects a minute minority and it isn't worth all those tax dollars.
Rape, murder, child abuse, hate crimes, they're all issues that only affect a small minority. They're still worth investigating and checking and spending whole huge wads of money on. I never claimed false rape accusations, or questionable rape cases, or whatever, are a huge factor or incredibly important. But I still stand by my point. Even if it only happens one time throughout all of history, that one person's life being ruined is still a major thing.
Yeah dude you are so brave for sticking up for the men by doubting rape victims. And yes, the things you call grey areas are still rape.
You understand, but you disagree with it, and believe that others will either misundstand or disagree too, and thereby I might lose their respect?
Either way, I see I got caught in the trap of talking about rape, rather than the original topic of the thread. Silly me!
Thanks for pointing that out.
I did. I reported this thread for getting out of hand way back when I posted the inn before the loch.
Then the Quotemander pushed my buttons a few more times. I'm sorry being called a rape apologist is something that gets me angry, I guess?
Well, no, you know what ,I'm sorry I'm venting my anger this strongly and I admit that's my issue. On the other hand, I do think I'm perfectly within my right to feel attacked/disgusted/insulted when somebody calls me a rape apologist seriously.
If you go back just a few pages in this same thread, you can see I'm perfectly fine joking about things. I don't necessarily always blow my top whenever the R-word is mentioned. I do, however, explode when I'm attacked on this issue, because it is a very sensitive thing for me - and everyone, to a degree, really.
Like I said earlier in this thread as well - perception is more important than reality, in a lot of cases. I do not want my image here to be that of the local pervert (in the "rape apologist" way. I don't mind being the local pervert in the "guy who always sees the ass in the picture before noticing the dogdriving a car in the background" way.). If that means my image becomes that of a guy with anger management issues and a whole lot of oversensitivity on some issues, well, that's not good, either, but it's still better than being thought of as "the guy who thinks rape isn't so bad"'.
Uh, he actually makes a really good point and one I happen to agree with.
It's the same as capital punishment. I'd rather see 100 guilty persons go free if it saves the life of an innocent being put to death.
Before this gets locked down:
I told my tail of walking back to my car one night, getting pinned up against the wall, punched and dfending myself BRUTALLY (I made the dude scream, cry and run away.)
I have no doubt what was intended for me.
I never told the cops. One: I assulted the guy with far worst then he gave me. Two: I was afraid they wouldn't believe me. I'm over weight, I don't consider myself something that a rapsit would look for...and I feared the cops would think that to.
On the other hand...I have at least two relatives claim rape and later admit that they were just ashamed of who they had slept with.
So, it happens...both things happen.
Neither is good.
I told my tail of walking back to my car one night, getting pinned up against the wall, punched and dfending myself BRUTALLY (I made the dude scream, cry and run away.)
I have no doubt what was intended for me.
I never told the cops. One: I assulted the guy with far worst then he gave me. Two: I was afraid they wouldn't believe me. I'm over weight, I don't consider myself something that a rapsit would look for...and I feared the cops would think that to.
On the other hand...I have at least two relatives claim rape and later admit that they were just ashamed of who they had slept with.
So, it happens...both things happen.
Neither is good.
Sorry, I forgot our justice system was based on "innocent until proven guilty, unless about rape, because the mere accusation is definite proof and you should be instantly shot the moment someone suggests you might have looked at a drunk girl the wrong way".
I'm not doubting rape victims. The only thing I'm saying, and I will continue saying this with my dieing breath, is that there is no such thing as a moral area without grey areas. Mine may be different than yours, but they're still there. Anyone claiming "there's no grey area" is an idiot.
For the record, in my life, I've had sex only in a long-term, committed relationship. I'm not trying to get people to accept some dirty thing in my past. I've turned down quite a few girls when I thought they were too drunk. Some didn't remember. Some didn't care and went home with someone else - or didn't. Some were disappointed. Two were actually angry with me - one because she thought I turned her down, the other because she said she'd drunk only to get up the courage to ask me along and when I turned her down, well, that hurt. Still, I said no. If I had been the type to say yes to this sort of things, i'd have gotten laid a lot more, but I wouldn't have felt good about myself. Had one of them, afterwards (key word here!), said that she hadn't wanted to, after all, would that have made me a rapist? A slimeball, sure; a horndog, an asshole,... a whole lot of things. Taking advantage of a truly innocent girl is despicable. But if it wasn't me pouring those drinks down her throat, it's not rape.
Everything chippy said itt is right
Whoa, maybe rethink the implications there, Bubble.
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