All I needed to hear was the first sentence to confirm what I have already said, the rest just emphasized it further in my favor.Le Quack said:
In the end, you are still wrong, your opinion is just an opinion, and very far from actual fact.
Darkfall beta review @ "The Noob"
- Thread starter Necronic
- Start date
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In the end, you are still wrong, your opinion is just an opinion, and very far from actual fact.
L
Le Quack
And I guess the fact is "WoW is fun" right?
Because thats what you think. It has to be a good game if you think its fun.
Because thats what you think. It has to be a good game if you think its fun.
Well I think the 11.5 million people standing behind me might think so too...Le Quack said:
However, even pointing that out is moot, you will make the baseless claim "they are all addicted." I will throw in some words explaining how idiotic that sounded, you will say it is crap and hollow, I will say you barely even played enough to validate that opinion.
Sooner or later it will come back around to me saying "Well we have fun just like you have fun with your games I don't like, why is this a problem?" and you will shoot back with "Well some people poop on peoples lawns for fun" and I will say "And some people think the movie Citizen Kane was a boring melodramatic failure" and around and around we go.
In the end, you are still going to be wrong, because you have done nothing to validate your opinion as fact. Its like driving a porshe two blocks and calling it a crap bucket because you didn't like how the seats felt for the first minute, you kind of lose out on an opinion when you obviously never wanted to really get into it in the first place.
You say you dislike WoW, that is perfectly fine because not everyone enjoys the same games, but calling it "hollow", "crap" , etc... only show you as at the least ignorant, and at the worst, jealous.
P.S Jimmy Johns rocks, that is all.
L
Le Quack
You can continue to call my opinion unsubstantianted just because I didn't waste my life getting all classes to level 80.
Can you tell me why you LIKE the game? I mean, the lore is butchered when you compare it to when it was a RTS series. The quests are menial and pointless. The PvP is shit. The PvE is boring. The raids are long and uneventful. The whole game is made for people who A) Have a whole lot of time to waste, or B) Are extremly casualy gamers that like to log a few hours in every few while.
You know what else is like that?
Peggle.
Peggle is a fun game, but it really doesn't compare to the rush of when you play against some body.
I can understand that you like the game, but don't try to pass it off as "Deep" or "Well-made."
Don't quote numbers either; lots of people saw Star War Episode 2 in theatres and it was shit.
I played WoW for the entirety of Beta and the first 3 1/2 months getting to level 40. There was nothing challenging about the game. The game was designed for everyone to "Win." There was nothing to set a part the people that sucked, or the people that were good.
It pains me for people to tell me that Darkfall won't make it because "Its too hard." I think it reflects something to our society about accomplishment.
Also, before you say, "I don't play for the challenge." There are plenty of other games that are just as communal and fun that don't require a monthly fee.
I felt I was being cheated out of my money for having to pay monthly for WoW.
Can you tell me why you LIKE the game? I mean, the lore is butchered when you compare it to when it was a RTS series. The quests are menial and pointless. The PvP is shit. The PvE is boring. The raids are long and uneventful. The whole game is made for people who A) Have a whole lot of time to waste, or B) Are extremly casualy gamers that like to log a few hours in every few while.
You know what else is like that?
Peggle.
Peggle is a fun game, but it really doesn't compare to the rush of when you play against some body.
I can understand that you like the game, but don't try to pass it off as "Deep" or "Well-made."
Don't quote numbers either; lots of people saw Star War Episode 2 in theatres and it was shit.
I played WoW for the entirety of Beta and the first 3 1/2 months getting to level 40. There was nothing challenging about the game. The game was designed for everyone to "Win." There was nothing to set a part the people that sucked, or the people that were good.
It pains me for people to tell me that Darkfall won't make it because "Its too hard." I think it reflects something to our society about accomplishment.
Also, before you say, "I don't play for the challenge." There are plenty of other games that are just as communal and fun that don't require a monthly fee.
I felt I was being cheated out of my money for having to pay monthly for WoW.
Your opinion is worthless because you haven't experienced the depth of the game.Le Quack said:
Lore changes, so what? Deal with it and move on. You can't limit the game to just RTS lore or else they would have run out of interesting ideas to add long ago. Questing in any game is menial. That's just the way MMO's are. Doesn't matter which one you play. Well... not so much in WoW. There are some pretty damn badass quests that aren't menial and they aren't pointless.
Again, if you actually played the expansion and experienced phasing content like the Wrathgate series and the constant push forward through Icecrown. The zone actually changes for you when you complete certain quest series. That makes them far from pointless.
PvP is shit in WoW because it's something tacked on to a PvE game. Darkfall is a pure PvP game. Eve Online carved a niche out and it's nearly all PvP with a healthy PvE set up. Even then, there's still player battles over resources and market price wars.
Stop posting. Your opinion is WORTHLESS. You played in the beta. You only played to lvl 40. Your opinion is 100% WORTHLESS. Come back when you've played the game as it is right now and up to a reasonable level.
Eve Online is a difficult game, yet it continues to grow.
Fine. MMO's aren't for you. Now shut up and get out of the thread until you have some real experience playing the current version of WoW and not some three year old beta experience that you didn't even finish. If WoW is so easy, why weren't you lvl 60 with full epics from raiding?
You don't even need to get to 80, you just have to actually, you know, put some effort into it, but I digress..Le Quack said:
Lore is actually not as bad as you seem to think. It has had a bit of a bumpy ride due to retcons, but more people are interested in the story then ever with all the info added in WOTLK. The game has more novels out under it's title then most other fantasy games, and even it's own comic series. So you think the story "went to shit", good for you. You never even saw most of the story.
Quests can be menial, but never pointless. I can argue that any game is menial, you can only fight people in PVP so long before the whole thing becomes boring, no matter the game. I love some of the quests in the game, whether I am bombing demons or riding a dragon and beating off another person off said dragon, I enjoy it. You can look under my character info for the "Loremaster of Northrend" achievement because I actually did all the quests for fun, as with most of the zones long after I reached level cap. I really liked seeing how each zone developed.
"The PVP is shit" is not very accurate. "The PVP is not hardcore enough for my e-peen to grow" is much better sentence for you. The PVP is fine because it is something we choose to do, we can enjoy it, get a few marks and honor for future rewards, and skip it if we don't feel like it. That is the whole basis of the game, choice...
PVE? I have a lot of fun taking on new encounters, and yet sometimes doing the same encounter can get boring, which is why I then PVP, or do instances, or farm for my crafts, or go help my friend, or... etc... Need I go on? Every game has things you can consider repetitious and boring, WoW gives us the option to choose our poison, making it less repetitious then pretty much any MMO out right now that concentrate on one single "niche".
As for raids? You admitted you never even went on one since you never passed 40, so speak for what you know, rather then what you take from your ass. Thanks.
As for the last comment, I fall under neither A or B, what should I count myself as? C) A person that actually plays games for fun rather then giant e-peen levels of douchbaggery? Such a novel concept.
Peggle is also one of the most popular games in the world. Why, sometimes people play for the fun, not the rush.
That is your problem, you seem to think those that don't follow your guidelines for what you consider "hardcore" or "leet" are inferior, and so I hope you see a shrink so you can get over your meaningless superiority complex. Really, I do.
It is well made, and while it is simple, it does have it's deep mechanics too. That has been something Blizzard always did well, they make games that are simple to learn, easy to pickup, but can be difficult to really master.
Speak for what you know, then I will listen to you. You, frankly, know only "jack" and "shit" at this point since you seemed to have you mind made up about the game before you even really got to half of it.
Ah, so obviously you must have such a sophisticated taste in MMOs that we all must be sheep following the herd. Another sign of ignorance. I hope you like sitting down in your cave of "I rule" because really, it might get a bit lonely down there.
I was also in Beta since Phase 1, back then the most we saw was Scarlet Monestary and later Blackrock Depts as high level instances before Molten Core, etc... was released. I can see how you would get annoyed by an unfinished product, but that is more a fault of your own impatience then that of the game.
It is not because it is "too hard" but because, to some people, getting ganked is "not fun".
You are right, I don't play for the challenge, I play for the fun of it. You seem to lack a grasp of that, like your brain is suddenly going to explode that people don't agree with you on something you lack so much knowledge about. I play single player games on NORMAL too, OH NOES HE IS THE NEWBIE. :lol:
I don't wish to change your opinion on WoW, but I do wish you to at least be factual about what you talk about. All I hear right now is jealous nerd rage filled with a lot of hot air, I am sorry your game of choice is not popular and "hip", and that you feel you need to fight the popular game just to validate it, but really, at least know what you are talking about when it comes to the game you are bashing. You rant off an uneducated opinion as fact, and you will fail.
P.S. As an aside, it is Christmas Eve, so I think we should just go spend time with our families rather then argue about our prefered gaming method at this point. Good night and Happy Holidays! Even you Le Quack!
ScytheRexx said:
Every year on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day I make a point to roll around the starting zones, find players with unretarded names, find out if they're new to the server/game, and if they are, give them 100g. I can't do it this year 'cause WoW won't run on my computer anymore.
But it's the thought that counts, right?
L
Le Quack
Why do you keep asking me to be factual when you are being just as righteously opinionated. You act like everything you say is correct, when its really not.
The only reason WoW has such vast popularity is because it requires large communities to participate in. You need 40+ people to do some raids, and that helps create a community of friends. The relationship between people in a game grows very strongly, and since you have to many friends because of the high amounts of people required, the pull to keep you in the game is very heavy.
I think the only reason all these people keep playing is because they want to stay with their friends, and nobody wants to leave their friends behind.
I went into WoW with a group of friends already with me, so we got to do our leveling rather quickly. It wasn't long before we all realized that we were playing an inferior game. We didn't HAVE to play WoW to keep our friendship.
A shitty first half of the game is still half of a shitty game. You don't know shit about the more open MMOs, so stop talking like an expert.
I believe Yahtzee said, "While a shitty first half of a game makes it a shitty game, a good first half of the game doesn't make it a good game."
He didn't even say that on his review of an MMO, he said it on Condemned 2. (Good Memory, didn't look it up)
I will still fall back and say the PvP IS boring. The PvP is HEAVILY imbalanced. You say that you can only PvP so long before it gets boring. I.E. THE GAME IS BORING. I pvp'd 24/7 in UO and it wasn't boring. I wasn't even very good at it. The game was just so open (No Set Classes, chose your own skills) it allowed for me to play it my own way.
Have you EVER played UO or Shadowbane (or to a lesser extent EvE)? No, you didn't. You didn't experience any part of the game, so your opinion has less weight than that of mine on WoW.
All your arguments are based on hearsay and that "All pvp is ganking." You have no basis whatsoever to have these opinions other than bias against games like these.
Yeah, but people don't pay monthly to play peggle. If I'm paying monthly or a game, I don't want it to be a co-op version of "Wicker." I'll just have to say that it is idiotic to pay for a monthly game that doesn't fully capitalize on the multiplayer aspects.
I play games for fun, WoW isn't fun to me. I have reasons why. I think you only continue to play WoW instead of a better game because of the relationship tied to the game. WoW comes with so much extra baggages that it KEEPS you sucked in with friends, and not good game content.
P.S. Merry Christmas.......
idiot.
Just a heads up, I pvped exclusively with a bit of dragon taming fortune making on the side back on UO. It was fun, I led the most successful PVP guild we had on the server. Truth is though, had I gotten into FPSs before that, I probably wouldn't have glanced at UO again. Why? Because like I said. MMOs are RPGs, they're meant for the PVE aspect and fall flat in the PVP area when compared to other player vs player genres.
The reason Shadowbane failed is the same reason Darkfall will. It's not because it's not a great game (it very well could be), or that pvp is for loozerzlolxors, but because there's not a big enough audience for it outside of FPS games like TF2, Halo etc.
The reason Shadowbane failed is the same reason Darkfall will. It's not because it's not a great game (it very well could be), or that pvp is for loozerzlolxors, but because there's not a big enough audience for it outside of FPS games like TF2, Halo etc.
I.. played EvE Online, and went back to WoW 'cause getting ganked sucked. It's pointless to pick up a PvP focused MMO style game unless you get it day one and never stop playing, because if not there will always be heaps of people killing you.
WoW, on the other hand, takes some of that trouble away.
WoW, on the other hand, takes some of that trouble away.
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Le Quack
Not all MMOs are RPGs. MMORPGs should have interplayer RP.Shegokigo said:
I RP'd extensively in UO, and not so much shadowbane. Without the free reign that UOtype MMOs give, all the RP is preplanned, and there isn't much of anything that players can do to affect their enviroment.
I was cal-i CS 1.6, but I always played UO because team tactics and pvp was just so well developed. Along with RP elements and vast amounts of freedom, you could do just about anything in UO.
EDIT: What server did you play? I probably know the guild.
Honestly? Before the Trammy patch, UO was perfection as far as it came to players vs players. Huge battles or small scale scuffles brought alot of energy to the game. (Baja server btw LoD, LotD, or T_A at some given point)
Problem is? Like everythingelse it got "min-maxed" and the pvp became about "if you had the right skills/spec/class" and just mowed down other people. Didn't matter how much skill you had if you went up against a dex monkey in underwear during that patch, or against a 1shot-Heavy HQ X-Bow archer. It's been like that ever since, classes/specs/skills will always undermine skill, the only exception is two players playing the exact same class go at it, then it becomes a yawnfest of who can pull of what first.
I'm sure large scale battles are more fun these days in PVP MMOs, but again, I don't see how the systems of Shadowbane are in anyway superior to say Team Fortress, Counterstrike or Quake in terms of player vs player battles. The reason PVP mmos are failing is because pvpers are playing those FPSs instead.
Problem is? Like everythingelse it got "min-maxed" and the pvp became about "if you had the right skills/spec/class" and just mowed down other people. Didn't matter how much skill you had if you went up against a dex monkey in underwear during that patch, or against a 1shot-Heavy HQ X-Bow archer. It's been like that ever since, classes/specs/skills will always undermine skill, the only exception is two players playing the exact same class go at it, then it becomes a yawnfest of who can pull of what first.
I'm sure large scale battles are more fun these days in PVP MMOs, but again, I don't see how the systems of Shadowbane are in anyway superior to say Team Fortress, Counterstrike or Quake in terms of player vs player battles. The reason PVP mmos are failing is because pvpers are playing those FPSs instead.
R
Rubicon
That's awesome skratty. Anytime I see someone new to SB and they're asking questions I always stop to answer. I remember what it was like to be new to a game and have little to no help.Skrattybones said:ScytheRexx said:
Every year on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day I make a point to roll around the starting zones, find players with unretarded names, find out if they're new to the server/game, and if they are, give them 100g. I can't do it this year 'cause WoW won't run on my computer anymore.
But it's the thought that counts, right?
Yeah, me too.Mav said:That's awesome skratty. Anytime I see someone new to SB and they're asking questions I always stop to answer. I remember what it was like to be new to a game and have little to no help.Skrattybones said:ScytheRexx said:
Every year on Christmas Eve/Christmas Day I make a point to roll around the starting zones, find players with unretarded names, find out if they're new to the server/game, and if they are, give them 100g. I can't do it this year 'cause WoW won't run on my computer anymore.
But it's the thought that counts, right?
Not as much as I used to back in the day -- Pre-Burning Crusade it got around that I would help most people who needed it, and suddenly I found myself running newbies through lower level instances for phat loot.
L
Le Quack
I think the most balanced PvP came after the trammy patch, but before publish 16. It took awhile for mages to get the hang of killing dexers, but eventually they came around.Shegokigo said:
The free server UO: Hybrid has the largest skill templates around. There are the bread and butter skill combos, but they don't take up 100% of your skill points, allowing for large amounts of leway in what you played.
I PvP'd a lot on the Atlantic server in the S|S guild. It was a thieves guild. I played a fencer/disarm/thief and it was probably the most fun I ever had. Later on, I got invovled in the free shard orc guild that allowed for massive tactics, such as box dropping and ect.
I have a secret........
I didn't like shadowbane as much as I liked UO.
It was slightly tweaked differently because of classes, and UO still had a large player base in Fellucca.
I always thought of skill of how well you played against your weakness, and how you overcame it.
C
Chronos[Ha-G]
Hoo boy. I dare not let my darkfall-loving friend see this thread - I'd never hear the end of it.
Necronic
Staff member
Man, why is it that when someone starts talking about a new MMO people from another MMO (not a specific one, I promise) have to come in and start talking about how it will not be as good. NEWS FLASH. MMO is going to be a massive gaming genre, and we need to realize that saying that people won't play Civ 4 because Heroes of Might and Magic 4 is better makes as much sense as saying people won't dig Darkfall because WoW is better (or vice versa). They are MASSIVELY different games. There are already a couple MMOs that people would never compare like that. Second Life anyone?
I guess the one problem is that MMOs are a bit unique because most people only play one. Still though, I think that there are enough differences between them to allow for both to be good.
WoW was a great game. It was like playing Neverwinter Nights in coop mode with 10,000 other players in a persistent world (that didn't have a moron GM). Personally I got tired of it after a while, but I understand why other people like it. Me, I like the idea of competition. Not specifically PvP, but competition, and this is something that WoW lacks at a certain level. The game is more centered around coop PvE. There can be cooperation in competition, but that doesn't really exist in WoW (or didn't when I stopped playing). Sure you have BGs and open RvR, but to what ultimate goal?
The best example of a game centered around competition I have played is EvE online. Every part of the world, from mining to research to economics to combat are all centered around competition with other players. Can you outfly them? Can you outbuy them? Can you outmine them? Can you oubuild them?Can you outhink them? In the end you have achievements that I really don't think are possible in a game like WoW, like being the head of Band of Brothers, an alliance of maybe 10,000 pilots, or being the go to guy for highly rare spaceships, or being the leader of a massive ice magnate, or (my personal favorite) being the most hated and feared pirate to roam the sky.
The interesting thing to me is that a game like EvE that is so based on competition ultimately forces cooperation. People flying solo will fail (except a really good pirate, but even thats hard). You just can't compete with the big boys on your own. The level of cooperation required is so much more than you could ever find in WoW as well.
Now, all that said, WoW has never made me so mad that I want to put my fist through my monitor. I have never gotten drunk, played WoW, and lost months worth of work because I was playing badly(I lost 2 battleships back to back one night.) Its actually quite the opposite, my favorite memories of WoW were after we finished our MC run the remaining players would get really drunk and hit upper black rock spire (we called them drunken uppers) and just fly through it.
Ultimately WoW is a much more casual, and easier to enjoy game. For many people this is great, but for people like myself, Le Quack, and Mav we want something different. We want a game that challenges us by putting us up against the best that other players have to offer and then humbling us when we fall short. Repeatedly.
The real question, of course, is whether or not they can pull it off. Other people have done games like this before and succeded with them. EvE is the best living example. But it has an incredible dev team (IMHO the best dev team in existance relative to its size), and Aventurine is completely untested.
Anyways, there is room for all kinds, so there :finger:
PS About the greifing thing. From my experience greifing is very different in games like this. For one no one will just kill you for the fuck of it, they will only do it if they see potential for reward. This is very different from WoW where the only reward is seeing someone log off. Also, unlike WoW there are serious repercussions for being a douchebag in games like this. In EvE if you badmouthed the wrong man you could end up wardecced out of existance, and I am sure similar things will happen in Darkfall. Because, if you remember what I said earlier, games like this require cooperation to maintain competitivity, and griefers rarely cooperate on any serious scale. They are super powered individuals, and these games don't allow for that.
I guess the one problem is that MMOs are a bit unique because most people only play one. Still though, I think that there are enough differences between them to allow for both to be good.
WoW was a great game. It was like playing Neverwinter Nights in coop mode with 10,000 other players in a persistent world (that didn't have a moron GM). Personally I got tired of it after a while, but I understand why other people like it. Me, I like the idea of competition. Not specifically PvP, but competition, and this is something that WoW lacks at a certain level. The game is more centered around coop PvE. There can be cooperation in competition, but that doesn't really exist in WoW (or didn't when I stopped playing). Sure you have BGs and open RvR, but to what ultimate goal?
The best example of a game centered around competition I have played is EvE online. Every part of the world, from mining to research to economics to combat are all centered around competition with other players. Can you outfly them? Can you outbuy them? Can you outmine them? Can you oubuild them?Can you outhink them? In the end you have achievements that I really don't think are possible in a game like WoW, like being the head of Band of Brothers, an alliance of maybe 10,000 pilots, or being the go to guy for highly rare spaceships, or being the leader of a massive ice magnate, or (my personal favorite) being the most hated and feared pirate to roam the sky.
The interesting thing to me is that a game like EvE that is so based on competition ultimately forces cooperation. People flying solo will fail (except a really good pirate, but even thats hard). You just can't compete with the big boys on your own. The level of cooperation required is so much more than you could ever find in WoW as well.
Now, all that said, WoW has never made me so mad that I want to put my fist through my monitor. I have never gotten drunk, played WoW, and lost months worth of work because I was playing badly(I lost 2 battleships back to back one night.) Its actually quite the opposite, my favorite memories of WoW were after we finished our MC run the remaining players would get really drunk and hit upper black rock spire (we called them drunken uppers) and just fly through it.
Ultimately WoW is a much more casual, and easier to enjoy game. For many people this is great, but for people like myself, Le Quack, and Mav we want something different. We want a game that challenges us by putting us up against the best that other players have to offer and then humbling us when we fall short. Repeatedly.
The real question, of course, is whether or not they can pull it off. Other people have done games like this before and succeded with them. EvE is the best living example. But it has an incredible dev team (IMHO the best dev team in existance relative to its size), and Aventurine is completely untested.
Anyways, there is room for all kinds, so there :finger:
PS About the greifing thing. From my experience greifing is very different in games like this. For one no one will just kill you for the fuck of it, they will only do it if they see potential for reward. This is very different from WoW where the only reward is seeing someone log off. Also, unlike WoW there are serious repercussions for being a douchebag in games like this. In EvE if you badmouthed the wrong man you could end up wardecced out of existance, and I am sure similar things will happen in Darkfall. Because, if you remember what I said earlier, games like this require cooperation to maintain competitivity, and griefers rarely cooperate on any serious scale. They are super powered individuals, and these games don't allow for that.
i haven't read everything but what they usually do when there is looting in pvp is come up with ways to protect uber items:
Some items can be "soulstoned" and become no drop
In AC, you would drop some items based on value, ie you'd travel with a lot of expensive junk to cover your weapon
lots of ways really...
All i know is during the 3 years i played wow, i never enjoyed pvp as much as i did playing AC and muds where you know, there was the chance you could actually lose something if you played like a schmuck
Some items can be "soulstoned" and become no drop
In AC, you would drop some items based on value, ie you'd travel with a lot of expensive junk to cover your weapon
lots of ways really...
All i know is during the 3 years i played wow, i never enjoyed pvp as much as i did playing AC and muds where you know, there was the chance you could actually lose something if you played like a schmuck
Based on arguments from Le Quack he obviously has no idea how much gameplay in WoW has changed since he got to level 40 some five years ago. Raids require less man-power, PVP offers rewards based on skill and teamwork, and the PVE is genious in the latest expansion.
Based on arguments by Mav he prefers games that have some sort of end game. I find it odd that he would complain about WoW because it constantly receives new content for players to explore, but I guess to each his own.
Darkfall is going to come out, and it's going to be quickly forgotten. This is my prediction.
Like City of Heroes it will have it's loyal player base but it's going to suffer in the long term. A game like Darkfall sounds like it will require players to ally with each other for protection, but at the same time they will be afraid to do just that. With everyone a potential target how do you decide who you can trust? Mav has argued that the best part of the game will be to "own" a server. Well what if you don't end up "owning" it? What if you find yourself on a server with the WoW equivalent of the Goon Squad and they end up owning it? Will you still enjoy repurchasing or and earning your gear over and over again? It's a simple question. And if you answer "yes" then I suppose Darkfall is the game for you. In fact I'm sure that the PVP will be quite challenging for a while until people start figuring out how to exploit using their classes or the environment.
I wish you the best of luck.
Oh and Le Quack, I'm quoting you for my signature. It's like we're two kids fighting in the back seat of the car. :finger: :waah:
Based on arguments by Mav he prefers games that have some sort of end game. I find it odd that he would complain about WoW because it constantly receives new content for players to explore, but I guess to each his own.
Darkfall is going to come out, and it's going to be quickly forgotten. This is my prediction.
Like City of Heroes it will have it's loyal player base but it's going to suffer in the long term. A game like Darkfall sounds like it will require players to ally with each other for protection, but at the same time they will be afraid to do just that. With everyone a potential target how do you decide who you can trust? Mav has argued that the best part of the game will be to "own" a server. Well what if you don't end up "owning" it? What if you find yourself on a server with the WoW equivalent of the Goon Squad and they end up owning it? Will you still enjoy repurchasing or and earning your gear over and over again? It's a simple question. And if you answer "yes" then I suppose Darkfall is the game for you. In fact I'm sure that the PVP will be quite challenging for a while until people start figuring out how to exploit using their classes or the environment.
I wish you the best of luck.
Oh and Le Quack, I'm quoting you for my signature. It's like we're two kids fighting in the back seat of the car. :finger: :waah:
R
Rubicon
Uh, no? I kill people all the fucking time in Shadowbane and over pvp based mmo's, for the fun of it. I'll do the same if I play Darkfall.Necronic said:
That's the beauty of open range pvp. If it moves, kill it. Anything is open to be killed. It's not griefing. If I camp a certain area a certain player always goes by and constantly pwn him over and over, that's not griefing in a pvp game. It's called, playing the game.
Necronic
Staff member
Some aspects of gameplay have changed (I'll give Blizz credit for some solid expansions), but the underlying fundamentals of the game haven't. Its a very low risk game. I can just randomly walk around and get myself killed repeatedly and there is almost no penalty. Now, like I said in my previous post that has some serious benefits, but for some of us that's boring.Shawnacy said:
You are correct there. WoW is all endgame. That was actually one of my complaints with it, was that there was really only one goal, getting to endgame. Blizz is very good about constantly expanding endgame. I think that if it wasn't going to be such a pain to get back to endgame I might be more willing to restart (my 63 warrior would take forever).
I wonder if the goon squad in WoW are the same people from EvE (there is a very powerful goon squad there). In terms of who you can trust that works itself out. People come with their own guilds from other games, are core groups of RL friends, or simply see more profit in working together with someone than just killing them. Of course you will have traitors, but they will more than likely be publicly outed and their oppurtunities will quickly dwindle. Same thing happens to corp thieves in EvE.
Of course you won't. The premise of this game is so different from WoW that not every part of it is based on reward. There are also punishments. Serious punishments. But to the victor go the spoils, and while I will be pissed when repurchasing gear I will also be thrilled in a way other games can't give me when I am taking the gear myself.
That is a fair concern. Every game has balance issues and based on the very limited beta being done in Darkfall there will probably be more balance issues. But I doubt you will see many people taking advantage of exploits, the people that play games like this do it for the challenge, and generally have no problem with seeing draconian measures taken against people using exploits. That was something that actually helped get me to quit WoW, was that so much of the open rvr I got into was exploits. Asshats on roofs or sapping me in town or shit like that. I know they finally fixed it, but what they should have done was just straight out say they would ban people for doing this. They never did a damn thing to them.
No you don't.Shawncy said:
You should re read his comment, it was made in defense of people saying he started it, which really he didn't.shawncy said:
Necronic
Staff member
Yeah, but griefing actually involves risk, right? Trying to kill another player means you can get killed yourself. And at some points the question of whether you want to risk loosing something for a minimal gain will keep people from griefing. Not all the time, of course. But there will be a lot more risk for pretty much the same reward in this game.Mav said:
Edit: I should clarify, the game will be a bloodbath compared to WoW. There will be people killing each other left and right, but most people doing the killing will be doing it for a tangible in game goal, for a reason. This is different than greifing, where there is no profit to be had, no territory to claim, nothing but the knowledge that you pissed someone else off. Even the latter will be more tangible, because if you pop someone stupid enough to be walking around in some nice expensive armor all by himself it will feel very satisfying knowing how much you pissed him off, because you really really hurt him in real in game ways. Plus you get the armor
The argument is pretty much done but I'm going to give my two cents anyway.
First of all, I'm a casual gamer. Yes, I enjoy all kinds of games (but mostly RPGs) but I won't go spending time on any game just to compete for a top clan on the ladder or the best guild on the server or anything like that. I play games because they are fun, but the above is no fun to me.
Second, I've played a trial version of WoW. Now, before you all go stating that I know nothing of the game because of it's only been two weeks, you can keep that to yourself because I know that is most likely true. I've only been to starting areas/the followup ones, not any raid or battleground or that kind of jazz. I've only played on a PvE server and have kept PvP off.
I enjoyed WoW (also Warcraft III though it was a bit too fast-paced of a game for me, when it comes to RTS I prefer the Age of Empires series). I'm a roleplayer, so I've been reading through walls of texts on the lore everywhere I could find 'em, retconned or not. I enjoyed the easy-going part of the game - you don't need to do things in this or that exact way like in a singleplayer RPG where you get stuck because you screwed up a puzzle or taken a wrong turn somewhere and ended up on the complete opposite of the gameworld and wonder why you can't find that one NPC. I pretty much skipped all the group quests (RFC- or WC-related, for example) since I preferred to not spend my time waiting for groups but instead see what the game had to offer. Yes, I liked WoW, and it was by no means boring/treadmill to me. The only thing that keeps me from playing it is the monthly fee. When they throw that off or when I have a more steady income I'll probably play WoW. Until then, no.
First of all, I'm a casual gamer. Yes, I enjoy all kinds of games (but mostly RPGs) but I won't go spending time on any game just to compete for a top clan on the ladder or the best guild on the server or anything like that. I play games because they are fun, but the above is no fun to me.
Second, I've played a trial version of WoW. Now, before you all go stating that I know nothing of the game because of it's only been two weeks, you can keep that to yourself because I know that is most likely true. I've only been to starting areas/the followup ones, not any raid or battleground or that kind of jazz. I've only played on a PvE server and have kept PvP off.
I enjoyed WoW (also Warcraft III though it was a bit too fast-paced of a game for me, when it comes to RTS I prefer the Age of Empires series). I'm a roleplayer, so I've been reading through walls of texts on the lore everywhere I could find 'em, retconned or not. I enjoyed the easy-going part of the game - you don't need to do things in this or that exact way like in a singleplayer RPG where you get stuck because you screwed up a puzzle or taken a wrong turn somewhere and ended up on the complete opposite of the gameworld and wonder why you can't find that one NPC. I pretty much skipped all the group quests (RFC- or WC-related, for example) since I preferred to not spend my time waiting for groups but instead see what the game had to offer. Yes, I liked WoW, and it was by no means boring/treadmill to me. The only thing that keeps me from playing it is the monthly fee. When they throw that off or when I have a more steady income I'll probably play WoW. Until then, no.
Also, this. I really don't see how it's worth getting all worked up about this or that MMO because it's superior. So what if they are not? It's your game (to an extent, anyway) and if someone doesn't like it, then big deal. It's not your family or religion. You don't have to go on a crusade because your game is superior, simply because it's just a game. Although some take it too far and make it a second life, admittedly.Necronic said:
Necronic
Staff member
I think its because we all look for validation of our beliefs in other people. We want other people to say that what we like is good, and when people don't we try to convince them, or get mad and try to discredit the other persons beliefs. In things like tihs you really can't discredit another persons beliefs, and who gives a damn if you get validation. Be a self sufficient ego. Not that I won't argue, but honestly I am doing it because I want more people playing this game, and I think that if I can argue in a calm and inviting manner I may get someone to give the game a shot.Wahad said:
You're wrong. Eve Online is very much a pvp orientated game and it has a very active storyline to it. Merely playing the game is taking part of a role in a greater chain of events.Shegokigo said:
Shadowbane failed because of poor game mechanics and poor game performance. Lag and unplayable framerates sucked in that game. There is a market for huge, mass battlefield pvp, but no company has created a game that allows for that at good framerates while still looking awesome.
R
Rubicon
There doesn't need to be profit or a reason to kill people. If that's the definition of griefing in a mmo, so be it. Open range pvp mmo's are made that way for a reason; to enable pvp.Necronic said:Edit: I should clarify, the game will be a bloodbath compared to WoW. There will be people killing each other left and right, but most people doing the killing will be doing it for a tangible in game goal, for a reason. This is different than greifing, where there is no profit to be had, no territory to claim, nothing but the knowledge that you pissed someone else off. Even the latter will be more tangible, because if you pop someone stupid enough to be walking around in some nice expensive armor all by himself it will feel very satisfying knowing how much you pissed him off, because you really really hurt him in real in game ways. Plus you get the armor
Example; I log on a toon made for more solo pvp rather than group based. the toon is quite fast on foot, so traversing the world map is fairly quick. i roam around looking for people, anyone, not in my guild, to kill. i find someone, i go after them, kill them if possible. if they have something in their inventory i can loot when they die, cool. if not *shrug* oh well, it was still fun killing them, and i move on to go kill someone else.
it's called pvp for a reason, they fight back. sure it's sometimes someone levels below me, often it's someone near my level (cap) or the same level in which case it's even more of a fair fight. but it's never about monetary gain of items or loot. if i was playing a thief class and jacking people's shit on purpose without really fighting, yea that's annoying but not griefing. and yes darkfall will have a thief style class with stealing stuff, everything from items to mounts to even ships
it's the mindset of total carnage that we love. sure if we wanted instant gratification of killing someone in a game we'd play a FPS like Call of Duty or Counter Strike but we enjoy the RPG factor of leveling a toon, perfecting stats and builds, getting the right items for the job. things you don't really do in FPS cause each FPS (at least on PC) has it's own server and each server is different and different maps rotating. whereas MMO's are a persistent world with static rulesets.
Because my opinions are based on a full experience, yours are not. While my experiance is not the truth of everyone, you can't discredit 11.5 million peoples opinions on a game they enjoy. Sorry, that is not how it works.Le Quack said:
40+ has not been in the game since BC came out, just showing more of the fact you don't actually know what you are talking about.
There is that superiority complex again. WoW is not inferior then many other games out, it is just different then what you enjoy. You will just have to live with that. Also, I play regardless of my friends in the game. Two of them left for 6 months for financial issues, I kept playing. Friends are part of the package, but the game is what drew us in. If community itself was all that, I would still be playing EverQuest.
I actually enjoy the begining, as it was what first hooked me on the game. I just understand that the leveling aspect is only 1/4th of the true game, because I have that experience to go back on.
That is interesting you even bring up Yahtzee, since he has done reviews on recent MMOs were he basically has images of himself beating them up with baseball bats with WoW at his side, confirming that he does not really like the genre that much, but that at least WoW in entertaining.
UO was a decent game, but you need to realize PVP is only a part of it. I did get bored of PVP in UO, and I got bored of PVE in other games. WoW gives me the perfect mix, and that is really all I need. I don't care if the PVP is "inferior" to some game you play, I disagree due to my playstyle, but that does not mean I am going to call your game shitty.
Actually, I did. I didn't really like them, but here is the difference, listen closely here.
I don't go around telling people that UO, Shadowbane, or EvE are "shit" I say I didn't like the gameplay, the mechanics, or that it just didn't grasp me. I don't call them inferior, I don't rant and rave that people are stupid for playing them.
That is the crux of this arguement. You have the voice of a jealous fanboy more then I ever have given, because unlike you, I don't bash other games just because I don't like them, on the contrary, I want all of them to succeed so that the entire genre can move forward.
That is the only reason I even started countering you rather then Mav, because while Mav at least kept the realm of his opinion as an opinion, you spouted off like you knew the game was shit because you said so, something I hear a lot from people simply jealous that the game they play is not the big popular monster that they want it to be. WoW is a good game, it is not a game you enjoy because the gameplay was not something you like, you can just keep it to that and move on.
I disagree, the content is fine, fun, and enjoyable. You didn't like it. good for you. Now go off an play what you like then, and stop acting like a baby who didn't get his bottle.
Proving my point in only three words, thank you for making is so easy.
This is pretty right on most accounts, it is why you have people like PC vs Apple and many other trivial arguments that go nowhere. The crux of my arguments is that WoW is a good game. Is it the best game in existence? No, but it is a "good" game like UO, EverQuest, EvE, but for a different reasons. I chose the game I like because I enjoy it, others should always do the same without getting into "No, mine is better!" acts of QQ.
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